Minnesota Shooting (Lets Start Over)

[HoneyDew]

Sadly this will only get him a terrorizing charge. I feel for the victims in this because he is still out and could still cause harm to them. If I were the police department I would put a patrol car outside their home and escort them around until they feel some peace.

I agree with your statement and he should also go to jail.

 

[WarriorForChrist]

I agree with your statement and he should also go to jail.

Terrorizing charge is only a misdemeanor so not sure how much time he would actually get if any.

 

[Sinnerman]

It's kind of a catch-22 because whenever there is an encounter with the police officer and African-Americans then right away both parties are suspicious and mistrustful of each other. Possibly both of them fear for their lives. One wrong move and someone could die. I wish I had a solution but I do not

Why is it so important to assume you know what others are thinking? When you make statements using the word "whenever" you are not allowing for a single exception. So you are saying that when Lebron James or Oprah Winfrey or President Obama or Denzel Washington have an encounter with the police, right away both parties are suspicious and mistrustful of each other. It's absurd. Do they fear for their lives? That is even more absurd.

I am white. When I was working as a police officer, I was assigned the graveyard shift in the ghetto. 75% of the people I encountered during my shift were black. Some were crime suspects. Some were crime victims. Most were just people I met during my work. Not one of the black victims seemed suspicious or mistrustful. I don't think very many of the black crime suspects I encountered seemed suspicious or mistrustful either. Their job was not getting caught. My job was to stop them from committing crimes or catch them after they had committed crimes. At 3am, I just assumed that people with criminal records, driving around near prostitutes or areas known for drug dealing, were up to no good. I was rarely proven wrong.

 

[Sinnerman]

Racial/ethnic selective enforcement of the law is the reason why minorities are in so much higher numbers in prison.

No it isn't. Furthermore, the links you posted do not provide evidence of such a claim. Perhaps you should look at sources other than the Southern Poverty Law Center, if you want to be taken seriously.

I never met a single person in prison who didn't belong there. 99% of the time, convicted felons served far less time than most guidelines suggested they should serve, to the point where victims filed protests.

There are hundreds, if not thousands of shootings in Chicago each year. It is a killing zone. Most of the dead are black. Most of the shooters are black. That isn't profiling. Most of the witnesses are black. Most of the jurors who convict them are black. Most of the police officers who arrested them are black.

You can play games and find some law school professor somewhere who tries to convince you that blacks in prison did not do anything wrong and should not be there. They would be liars. It's sad when people try to suggest that black criminals are somehow victims because somewhere out there are white criminals that were not caught or prosecuted. I worked as a police officer in a ghetto from midnight to 8am. I chased and caught a lot of criminals. It wasn't until after I had them on the ground and was struggling to get them in handcuffs, that I was able to see what race they were. I didn't begin chasing a fleeing criminal and then, after seeing they were white, decide to break off the chase.

 

[Sinnerman]

In any state that allows open carry without a permit, making sure your weapon is clearly visible to law enforcement when you are pulled over the FIRST thing you do, not highly unusual behavior.

You might have several minutes from the time you are pulled over until the officer approaches your vehicle. He has already run the plate and tried to discover if the registered owner is a violent felon and maybe wanted. What are you doing during those three minutes? You should have all the windows down. You should have the dome light on if it is night time. The vehicles engine should be turned off. Everyone's hands should be up and visible. If there are two officers in the police car, one is watching every move you are making before they approach. As a former police officer, I learned during the academy that most police fatalities happen during traffic stops. I never wanted to see a firearm within easy reach of any occupant. I wanted them to tell me they had a firearm and tell me where it is located. I will tell them not to reach for it. I will draw my service revolver and be ready for anything. If I am alone, I will tell the driver to standby and I will retreat to my cruiser and call for an additional officer. We will try to avoid standing next to the vehicle. Where I use to work, you knew if the driver or passenger was wanted before you asked them for id, because they got out of the vehicle and ran. Not one person ever told me they had a loaded gun in their vehicle, or displayed it. Maybe that was because most of them were felons and did not want to be charged with illegal possession.

 

[FlSnookman7]

To say racism doesn't exist both in this country and inside police forces is simply wrong. To say all police officers are racist is simply wrong. I think the bigger issue is that the media like to group all types into broad categories instead of dealing with them as individuals.
As to surviving a police encounter I think we need some common sense. If I am carrying my weapon and I encounter the police it is my responsibility to not only inform the officer I am armed but to obey all instructions and not act in a suspicious manner. I think too many people want to exercize their rights but disregard the responsibilities that come from them. That and a lack of respect that is all to common today I believe are what contribute to a vast majority of shootings.
I will put it in simpler terms, when a police officer tells you to do something shut up and do it, if he is wrong there are remedies in courts for that later on but if you are killed you have no recourse.

 

[Sinnerman]

What I don't understand is the need to shoot someone 4,5,6 times? Especially if no gunfire is being exchanged or if the person is clearly wounded and no longer a threat if they were even a threat to begin with. My brother is an officer. My good friend is one in Chicago for 25 years some of which was undercover and in Narcotics. He has never had to discharge his weapon and he said he was legally within his rights to do so many times and didn't. There are good officers and there are some that shouldn't have on the uniform and those who are going hard for the cops won't even say that much.

There are knuckleheads out there, I am aware. I know of people who are driving around now with there license, registration and insurance cards on their dashboards because they are afraid to reach for them. May sound silly to some but it is a reality for others. There is a fear from both sides. Let me say this low income doesnot equate to low class hoodlums and some people cannot differentiate between the two.

You shoot center of mass until you stop the perceived threat. People with multiple gunshot wounds have returned gunfire and killed officers or civilians.

The majority of low income people are not criminals. However, the majority of criminals are low income people. I grew up in Omaha. About 40 homicides per year. 38 of them happened in low income neighborhoods. Low income people are usually the victims of crime since criminals live in low income neighborhoods.

 

[Sinnerman]

Your offended by just about anything I say...I don't know what to tell you.
None of what you say here changes the fact that there are quite a few private prisons in this country and money is a huge factor in why the American prison system is so massively large...no matter how you try and play fast and loose with the heart of the issue.
It also doesn't change anything about what I say about to many years of to many needless beatings and killings.

Too many, you say. Name three beatings and three killings that were needless.

Prisons are built to house convicted felons. More convicted felons means a greater need for more prison beds. It's not some sort of conspiracy. It's the law of supply and demand.

 

[Willie-T]

What I don't understand is the need to shoot someone 4,5,6 times? Especially if no gunfire is being exchanged or if the person is clearly wounded and no longer a threat if they were even a threat to begin with. My brother is an officer. My good friend is one in Chicago for 25 years some of which was undercover and in Narcotics. He has never had to discharge his weapon and he said he was legally within his rights to do so many times and didn't. There are good officers and there are some that shouldn't have on the uniform and those who are going hard for the cops won't even say that much.

There are knuckleheads out there, I am aware. I know of people who are driving around now with there license, registration and insurance cards on their dashboards because they are afraid to reach for them. May sound silly to some but it is a reality for others. There is a fear from both sides. Let me say this low income doesnot equate to low class hoodlums and some people cannot differentiate between the two.

You've watched cop shows on TV where the officers are down in the range, right? What is the typical training? One nice clean shot at the target? No, they are trained to place effective stopping fire in as close a grouping of multi[le shots as possible. Think a moment. Why do you suppose that instinctive action is drummed into their shooting? Why do you think it is instinctively repeated on the street when they need to use their firearm?

 

[HoneyDew]

You shoot center of mass until you stop the perceived threat. People with multiple gunshot wounds have returned gunfire and killed officers or civilians.

The majority of low income people are not criminals. However, the majority of criminals are low income people. I grew up in Omaha. About 40 homicides per year. 38 of them happened in low income neighborhoods. Low income people are usually the victims of crime since criminals live in low income neighborhoods.

Understood, I wasn't referencing YOUR post. I have seen some pretty vicious and unfair comments in different threads lumping all black people in the same fishbowl and saying the black people are what's wrong in america. There is a problem in the black culture as I've said in my previous posts.

I am speaking from experience here, people don't understand unless it's happening to them. You know what someone said to me recently. "You're pretty for a black girl." They really could have kept that backhanded compliment. I'm sorry, I need to take a break from all of this. I was going to give more examples but I think it is falling on deaf ears. Forgive me if I'm wrong.

You seem like you took great pride in doing your job Sinnerman as you should. Sadly every officer isn't like you and I really wish they would do something about it and wish someone could come up with a way to help these kids because they are ruining their lives and the lives of others and it's so very sad.

 

[Sinnerman]

Oh, I am glad you know that for a fact. I guess you lived in NYC at the time and had your hand on it's pulse.
I did live there, and was a first responder BTW - I was there for 3 days - and knew enough LEO that were actually there at the time too, and personally told me this.

And as an aside, I don't know you, so I can be wrong, but with your telling me what I said about this or that is irresponsible, and that this is offending you, etc., you sound a lot like a emotional guy who might sometimes act first, and ask later.

You are right about one thing. You said you can be wrong, and you are wrong. About me, about our prisons, about shootings that happen that make you feel you need to draw conclusions before you know the facts. The grand jury decided the man who put a choke hold on Eric Gardner should not be charged. The man who shot Michael Brown was also cleared. One by one, the officers in Baltimore are being cleared of wrong doing. Yet in each of these incidents, and probably many more, you concluded otherwise, and felt they were all guilty of some serious crime. Have you ever publically stated that you got it wrong many times before and that you judged police guilty long before the investigations ended?

 

[Sinnerman]

You must have missed the posts I made afterwards regarding the other "facts" being thrown around by the media. The facts, as I was lead to believe, are not officially facts come to find out. I took full responsibility that while they may be facts, there are counter reports saying differently.

As far as the weapon being displayed... assuming Castile told the officer he had a weapon and a permit, the office always inquires about the location of the gun. They may even ask for the weapon. It being in plain sight is safer for all the parties involved. I'm not sure what is highly unusual about it.

They were never facts and I doubt they were presented to you as facts. You made the choice to write the word fact several times before you made statements with no evidence to support them. It gets tiresome, watching people post information they claim is factual because they were told so on the internet or by someone at some left-wing news station. Did you also post a bunch of facts about George Zimmerman after he shot Trayvon Martin, that later turned out not to be true? Did you fail to learn your lesson about waiting until the facts are known before judging people. Do you still feel you are an objective person? I don't.

 

[JosephsDreams]

You are right about one thing. You said you can be wrong, and you are wrong. About me, about our prisons, about shootings that happen that make you feel you need to draw conclusions before you know the facts. The grand jury decided the man who put a choke hold on Eric Gardner should not be charged. The man who shot Michael Brown was also cleared. One by one, the officers in Baltimore are being cleared of wrong doing. Yet in each of these incidents, and probably many more, you concluded otherwise, and felt they were all guilty of some serious crime. Have you ever publically stated that you got it wrong many times before and that you judged police guilty long before the investigations ended?

Funny how you and every single person here contrary to what I post has not once, not one of you, have replied to so many of my points. You all just conveniently ignore them. Its like when I play hide and go seek with my 7 year old daughter. Sometimes when I found her she closes her eyes, as if that means she wasn't found.

On yet another level, it reminds me of a few people here who I have wronged and owned up to it (your not one of them) and not one person here, and it has happened more then a few times, has replied in kind.
That is fine. That wasn't the reason I did it...
Just tells me there are some egos here not consistent with how God wants us to be. Which is also fine, we're all works in progress, so grace to us all.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

The fact is that police police where there is the most crime. And that my friends is the statistics behind the statistics.

And thats good but there Is a history that this country has,and Instead of compassion and understanding that helps facilitate actual and emotional healing,there Is a just get over It mentality.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

All seemingly accurate and I agree with your assessments.

The guy got himself shot because he triggered an alert situation, and the officer was overly reactive from that point on. Not a time at all for a detainee to be doing dumb things like reaching for anything.


One question that has bugged me from the beginning is that I think we are all getting very used to inciting people starting their videos before an arresting officer (that means one who stops you) even comes close to the car. He is on camera from the first, so that we can all hear the excess use of an exaggerated use of "Sir" repeatedly uttered by the "victims."

But not an instant of that kind of almost standard response is recorded here. Or, WAS it recorded, and not shown..... erased, to start over, only after the guy got shot?

I think I need a better phone,I would go through so many steps trying to get,record video until I would never find It.lol

 

[seed_time_harvest]

All seemingly accurate and I agree with your assessments.

The guy got himself shot because he triggered an alert situation, and the officer was overly reactive from that point on. Not a time at all for a detainee to be doing dumb things like reaching for anything.


One question that has bugged me from the beginning is that I think we are all getting very used to inciting people starting their videos before an arresting officer (that means one who stops you) even comes close to the car. He is on camera from the first, so that we can all hear the excess use of an exaggerated use of "Sir" repeatedly uttered by the "victims."

But not an instant of that kind of almost standard response is recorded here. Or, WAS it recorded, and not shown..... erased, to start over, only after the guy got shot?

But why more than 1 shot? Just asking

 

[Voldemort]

They were never facts and I doubt they were presented to you as facts. You made the choice to write the word fact several times before you made statements with no evidence to support them. It gets tiresome, watching people post information they claim is factual because they were told so on the internet or by someone at some left-wing news station. Did you also post a bunch of facts about George Zimmerman after he shot Trayvon Martin, that later turned out not to be true? Did you fail to learn your lesson about waiting until the facts are known before judging people. Do you still feel you are an objective person? I don't.

What is ironic is that you're guilty of the same thing I am. You're doubting that information was presented as fact from the media. If you did a simple google search, you'll find several links to these supposed "facts". And as far as them "never" being facts, how do you know? All the facts aren't out yet... yet you're certain the ones I listed aren't facts (not even giving the probability that one or two are at least fact).

I wasn't around ChristianChat.com during that time. To be fair, I probably would have posted the "facts" coming from news sources/agencies and if/when the "facts" came out to be false, I always go back and own it. It's why I never pawn my opinion as "fact" or my judgment as perfect.

Do you see the hypocrisy in calling me out when you're doing the same exact thing? You don't even know me and are making judgments and assumptions about me and the case.

 

[Willie-T]

But why more than 1 shot? Just asking

I think that's been well explained on one of these threads.

Cops aren't playing a game of "duel" to see who is the better shot or who can still kill the other with one round in their shoulder. You do not shoot without the full intention of totally stopping your attacker, "perceived" or "actual."

 

[Voldemort]

If you are in a vehicle that is being stopped by police, and you have a gun, the very last thing you do is display the gun. That is highly unusual behavior and it should be considered a threat to the safety of the officers.

As a former police officer, I learned during the academy that most police fatalities happen during traffic stops. I never wanted to see a firearm within easy reach of any occupant. I wanted them to tell me they had a firearm and tell me where it is located. I will tell them not to reach for it. I will draw my service revolver and be ready for anything. If I am alone, I will tell the driver to standby and I will retreat to my cruiser and call for an additional officer. We will try to avoid standing next to the vehicle. Where I use to work, you knew if the driver or passenger was wanted before you asked them for id, because they got out of the vehicle and ran. Not one person ever told me they had a loaded gun in their vehicle, or displayed it. Maybe that was because most of them were felons and did not want to be charged with illegal possession.

I find it odd as a former police officer you think "the last thing" you do is display your gun. I understand you may not have wanted it displayed and/or you never asked for the weapon for their safety as well as your own, but this is apparently foreign to you that other officers request this.

You said that's a threat... without even knowing if the police asked him to place it in a specific location. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but the video doesn't tell us any of that. So much for waiting for the facts...

 

[Sinnerman]

What is ironic is that you're guilty of the same thing I am. You're doubting that information was presented as fact from the media. If you did a simple google search, you'll find several links to these supposed "facts". And as far as them "never" being facts, how do you know? All the facts aren't out yet... yet you're certain the ones I listed aren't facts (not even giving the probability that one or two are at least fact).

I wasn't around ChristianChat.com during that time. To be fair, I probably would have posted the "facts" coming from news sources/agencies and if/when the "facts" came out to be false, I always go back and own it. It's why I never pawn my opinion as "fact" or my judgment as perfect.

Do you see the hypocrisy in calling me out when you're doing the same exact thing? You don't even know me and are making judgments and assumptions about me and the case.

Give it a rest. You posted information you referred to as facts that were not facts. Can't you just leave it at that. I like to wait for corroborating evidence before I start calling things facts. Their hasn't been an investigation yet. You can't rely on statements from the woman in the vehicle and more than you can rely on the statements made by the criminal companion of Michael Brown, who made up the famous line; "hands up, don't shoot" that he later stated to investigators never happened. So what I'm saying is there is no hypocrisy. You made a mistake and I pointed it out.