Whats the deal with Catholics?

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Apr 30, 2016
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Rodger
I agree. We are not saved by faith alone. Salvation is not just a one time event. As you just stated we are not saved by faith alone. We are saved by grace through faith. And apparently you agree with the Catholic Church thst we cannot earn our salvation. The Catholic Church is very clear on that.
So we must continue in loving our neighbor
Keeping the commandments , seeking forgiveness.
And they do affect our future salvation. That is why St Paul says

Rom 2
" But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath against yourself for the dsy of Gods wrath when his righteous judgement will be revealed
God will repay each person according to his works.
To those who PERSIST in DOING GOOD seek glory honor and immortality. But to those who are self seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil there will be anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil. .....
Verse 13. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in Gods sight BUT THE DOERS of the law will be justiiyed"

Rodger
Note we are judged by what we do. Second note the Gr word dikiosona ( justified) is in the future sense ( will be) something that will be accomplished in the future
Deacon Mike,
We are saved by faith alone.
It is a one time event.
It is at that time when a person repents. You know what repent means.
Then conversion begins.

When you repent, you are justified. NOW. At that moment. You become righteous in the eyes of God.
For covnersion, we speak of Sanctification. I fail to understand why the RCC gets these two mixed up together. I now it has something to do with baptism but cannot remember. Sanctification is a life-long process that strives to work with both the free will of man and the grace of the Holy Spirit to make us holy - set aside for service to God.

I do believe that works allow us to keep our salvation. I do believe salvation can be lost by denying Jesus, not by sinning.
Works has become an ugly word in churches these days. Jesus taught works, He did not teach to only believe in His name and one would be saved.

Maybe it's just more comforting to think that one could do what one wants to do and still be saved?
This is unfortunate since Jesus' aim was to teach how to live good lives, pleasing to God.

Fran
 

Vdp

Banned
Nov 18, 2015
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We receive Salvation by the GRACE of God. Not by anything we do. AND we cannot lose our Salvation at all.

1 John 3:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. [SUP]5 [/SUP]You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. [SUP]6 [/SUP]No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; [SUP]8 [/SUP]the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. [SUP]9[/SUP]No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We cannot sin when we abide in God!
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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I see you believe he hears you.
And do you not believe YOU are a sinner?
Oh. You mean the unsaved are not heard.
Interesting.
Then how do they get saved if they have no interaction with God?

Please reconsider your position.
God's grace falls on ALL, the saved and the unsaved.
God loves ALL his creation.

John 3:16 is complete.
Genesis 1:2 The spirit of God was already at work in the new earth.
Genesis 6:3 God did not want the H.S. to be disgraced, which means it was with sinful man
1 Corinthians 2:14 The Holy Spirit was with Paul to convict unbelievers.
2 Peter 3:9 God is waiting for sinners to repent.

Fran
The first sentence in my post states that the first prayer God hears is the sinners plea for salvation.

All of creation is under condemnation. All of creation is going to be destroyed and will need to be re-made without sin.

God is indeed long suffering toward sinners and it is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance.

Ro 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Ro 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Ps 52:1 « To the chief Musician, Maschil, A Psalm of David, when Doeg the Edomite came and told Saul, and said unto him, David is come to the house of Ahimelech. » Why boastest thou thyself in mischief, O mighty man? the goodness of God endureth continually.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Apr 30, 2016
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The first sentence in my post states that the first prayer God hears is the sinners plea for salvation.

All of creation is under condemnation. All of creation is going to be destroyed and will need to be re-made without sin.

God is indeed long suffering toward sinners and it is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance.

Ro 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Ro 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Ps 52:1 « To the chief Musician, Maschil, A Psalm of David, when Doeg the Edomite came and told Saul, and said unto him, David is come to the house of Ahimelech. » Why boastest thou thyself in mischief, O mighty man? the goodness of God endureth continually.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
I believe we agree.
God's grace falls on all. It's this grace that leads one to know God.
However, yes, we are all under condemnation from birth and must come to know God and be born of the spirit if we are to be saved.

Fran
 
Apr 30, 2016
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We receive Salvation by the GRACE of God. Not by anything we do. AND we cannot lose our Salvation at all.

1 John 3:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. [SUP]5 [/SUP]You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. [SUP]6 [/SUP]No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; [SUP]8 [/SUP]the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. [SUP]9[/SUP]No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We cannot sin when we abide in God!
It's interesting how we pick and choose our scripture!
What do you make of 1 John 1:8-10 ?

Fran
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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Is there an option like that for threads?

I know it's possible in the chat rooms.

Click on the user name of the person you want to ignore. Click on "add to ignore list". Click "save changes" and voila.. :)
 
Jul 8, 2016
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The Bible clearly teaches in many passages of Scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications" (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Now I challenge you to show me where the Bible says that man is "saved by works" or "saved through faith AND works."
Dear Mail maiden,
My time is a bit limited but I will answer you the best I can. I guess if you say Scripture teaches we are saved through faith "apart from any additions, that would mean the Bible would state that. St Paul quite often "qualifies" the meaning of faith. Let me explain what I mean.
,5 Through him we have received the grace of apostleship, to bring about the obedience of faith, Rom 1:5

First' Lets be clear, the Catholic Church teaches we are saved by faith. period. No good works can earn our salvation. To get a good explanation of what the Church teaches you can always check the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Its free and on line. That way you can get an accurate idea of what the Church actually teaches. So lets look at what The CCC says about faith.

1814 Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself. By faith “man freely commits his entire self to God.” For this reason the believer seeks to know and do God’s will. “The righteous shall live by faith.” Living faith “work through charity.” (506)
1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it. But “faith apart from works is dead”: when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.
Catholic Church. (2000). Catechism of the Catholic Church (2nd Ed., p. 446). Washington, DC: United States Catholic Conference.

Second, what does the CCC say about earning salvation through good works
MERIT: The reward which God promises and gives to those who love him and by his grace perform good works. One cannot “merit” justification or eternal life, which are the free gift of God; the source of any merit we have before God is due to the grace of Christ in us (2006).
Catholic Church. (2000). Catechism of the Catholic Church (2nd Ed., p. 888). Washington, DC: United States Catholic Conference.

Ok so how does "good works fit into the salvation process?


First lets go back and look at Eph 2:8-11
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;
New American Bible. (2011). (Revised Edition, Eph 2:8).
St Paul is speaking about our state of salvation prior to justification. Nothing we can do cane "earn our salvation i.e put God under obligation to "pay" us for our good works. Even our faith is given to us by God, ( lest we could boast)
For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus
New American Bible. (2011). (Revised Edition, Eph 2:10). Washington, DC: .
Here St Paul is talking about "justification Proper. " That is the moment we are "justified, made righteous, "saved". ( notice it does not say we are 'declared Justified but we are "created". (We become what God declares) this happens at baptism.

created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.
New American Bible. (2011). (Revised Edition, Eph 2:10).

The word "For" ( to address your objection) means "because, for this reason, for the purpose"
This of course is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches about us doing good works. Any works we do Glorify God and not us. ( i.e put God under obligation to pay us)
89.24 ἀντίc: a marker of reason, with the possible implication of purpose—‘because, for this reason, for the purpose of.’ ἀντὶ τούτου καταλείψει ἄνθρωπος τὸν πατέρα καὶ τὴν μητέρα ‘because of this, a man will leave his father and mother’ Eph 5:31.
Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 1, p. 779). New York: United Bible Societies.

Eph 2:8-11 is the best example of the Catholic understanding of salvation.


Now , let's look at this thing called faith. As we have seen, the Catholic Church does not teach that we can "earn our salvation. We also know that the term "faith Alone" is only found in James 2
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? Jas 2:14
So obviously faith without works cannot save. Plain and simple There it is in black and white

The term pistis is used in the Bible in a number of different senses, ranging from intellectual belief (Romans 14:22
, 23
, James 2:19
), to assurance (Acts 17:31
), and even to trustworthiness or reliability (Romans 3:3
, Titus 2:10
). Of key importance is Galatians 5:6
, which refers to “faith working by charity.” In Catholic theology, this is what is known as fides formata or “faith formed by charity.” The alternative to formed faith is fides informis or “faith unformed by charity.” This is the kind of faith described in James 2:19
, for example.
Whether a Catholic rejects the idea of justification by faith alone depends on what sense the term “faith” is being used in. If it is being used to refer to unformed faith then a Catholic rejects the idea of justification by faith alone (which is the point James is making in James 2:19
, as every non-antinomian Evangelical agrees; one is not justified by intellectual belief alone).
However, if the term “faith” is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic does not have to condemn the idea of justification by faith alone. In fact, in traditional works of Catholic theology, one regularly encounters the statement that formed faith is justifying faith. If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period.

The fact “faith” is normally used by Catholics to refer to intellectual assent (as in Romans 14:22-23
, 1 Corinthians 13:13
, and James 2:14-26
) is one reason Catholics do not use the “faith alone” formula even though they agree with what (better) Protestants mean by it. The formula runs counter to the historic meaning of the term “faith.”
The other reason is that, frankly, the formula itself (though not what it is used to express) is flatly unbiblical. The phrase “faith alone” (Greek, pisteos monon), occurs exactly once in the Bible, and there it is rejected:
“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (Jas. 2:24
)”

First, the Romans 14 sense of the term pistis is frankly the more common in the New Testament. It is much harder to think of passages which demand that pistis mean “faith formed by charity” than it is to think of passages which demand that pistis mean “intellectual belief.” In fact, even in Galatians 5:6
itself, Paul has to specify that it is faith formed by charity that he is talking about, suggesting that this is not the normal use of the term in his day.
Second, the New Testament regularly (forty-two times in the KJV) speaks of “the faith,” meaning a body of theological beliefs (e.g. Jude 3
). The connection between pistis and intellectual belief is clearly very strong in this usage.
Third, Catholic theology has focused on the triad of faith, hope, and charity, which Paul lays great stress on and which is found throughout his writings, not just in 1 Corinthians 13:13
(though that is the locus classicus for it), including places where it is not obvious because of the English translation or the division of verses. If in this triad “faith” is taken to mean “formed faith” then hope and charity are collapsed into faith and the triad is flattened. To preserve the distinctiveness of each member of the triad, the Church chose to use the term “faith” in a way that did not include within it the ideas of hope (trust) and charity (love). Only by doing this could the members of the triad be kept from collapsing into one another.
Thus the Catholic Church normally expresses the core essences of these virtues like this:
Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us . . . because he is truth itself. (CCC 1814)
Hope is the theological virtue by which we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness, placing our trust in Christ’s promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit. (CCC 1817)
Charity is the theological virtue by which we love God above all things for his own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God. (CCC 1822)
In common Catholic usage, faith is thus unconditional belief in what God says, hope is unconditional trust in God, and charity is unconditional love for God. When we are justified, God places all three of these virtues in our hearts. These virtues are given to each of the justified, even though our outward actions do not always reflect them because of the fallen nature we still possess. Thus a person may still have the virtue of faith even if momentarily tempted by doubt, a person may still have the virtue of trust even if scared or tempted by despair, and a person may still have the virtue of charity even if he is often selfish. Only a direct, grave violation (mortal sin against) of one of the virtues destroys the virtue.
As our sanctification progresses, these virtues within us are strengthened by God and we are able to more easily exercise faith, more easily exercise trust, and more easily exercise love. Performing acts of faith, hope, and charity becomes easier as we grow in the Christian life (note the great difficulty new converts often experience in these areas compared to those who have attained a measure of spiritual maturity).
 
Jul 8, 2016
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Dear FranC

Deacon Mike,
We are saved by faith alone.
It is a one time event.
It is at that time when a person repents. You know what repent means.
Then conversion begins.
Ok. Justification. This is why Justification is not just a onetime event. grant it, we are justified at a moment in time. But like sanctification, justification increases as well.

If we look at how the words justification, righteousness, forgiveness , sanctification is used in Sacred Scripture we discover that each of these terms are used in a past, present and future sense. If justification were "just" a onetime event then Scripture would not use δικαιόωa in a future sense to be achieved.
First, here are some verses showing justification as a past event:
“Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand…” (Romans 5:1-2
)
“Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.” (Romans 5:9
)
“And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.” (1Corinthians 6:11
) ( notice here sanctification is PRECEEDED BY JUSTIFCATION. That is Because St Paul does not have a ridged idea of justifications that Protestants like to apply to the word)
Justification is therefore clearly a past event in the life of the believer. Unfortunately, most Protestants have camped out on verses which imply this and have concluded that justification is a once-for-all event, rather than also being an ongoing and not yet completed process.
But however attractive the single, once-for-all view of justification may be to some, there are serious exegetical considerations weighing against it. This may be seen by looking at how the New Testament handles the story of Abraham.
One of the classic Old Testament texts on justification is Genesis 15:6
. This verse, which figures prominently in Paul’s discussion of justification in Romans and Galatians, states that when God gave the promise to Abraham that his descendants would be as the stars of the sky (Gen. 15:5
, cf. Rom. 4:18-22
) Abraham “believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” (Rom. 4:3
). This passage clearly teaches us that Abraham was justified at the time he believed the promise concerning the number of his descendants.
Now, if justification is a once-for-all event, rather than a process, then that means that Abraham could not receive justification either before or after Genesis 15:6
. However, Scripture indicates that he did both.
First, the book of Hebrews tells us that
“By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to set out for a place that he was to receive as an inheritance, not knowing where he was going.” (Hebrews 11:8
)
Every Protestant will passionately agree that the subject of Hebrews 11 is saving faith
But when did he have this faith? The passage tells us: Abraham had it “when he was called to go out to the place he would afterward receive.” The problem for the once-for-all view of justification is that is that the call of Abraham to leave Haran is recorded in Genesis 12:1-4
three chapters before he is justified in 15:6. We therefore know that Abraham was justified well before (in fact, years before) he was justified in Gen. 15:6
.
But if Abraham had saving faith back in Genesis 12, then he was justified back in Genesis 12. Yet Paul clearly tells us that he was also justified in Genesis 15. So justification must be more than just a once-for-all event.
But just as Abraham received justification before Genesis 15:6
, he also received it afterwards, for the book of James tells us,
“Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,’ and he was called the friend of God.” (James 2:21-23
)
James thus tells us “[w]as not our ancestor Abraham justified . . . when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?” In this instance, the faith which he had displayed in the initial promise of descendants was fulfilled in his actions (see also Heb. 11:17-19
), thus bringing to fruition the statement of Genesis 15:6
that he believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
Abraham therefore received justification The problem for the once-for-all view is that the offering of Isaac is recorded in Gen. 22:1-18
seven chapters after Gen. 15:6
.
Therefore, just as Abraham was justified before 15:6 when he left Haran for the promised land, so he was also justified again when he offered Isaac after 15:6.
Therefore, we see that Abraham was justified on at least three different occasions: he was justified in Genesis 12, when he first left Haran and went to the promised land; he was justified in Genesis 15, when he believed the promise concerning his descendants; and he was justified in Genesis 22, when he offered his first promised descendant on the altar.
As a result, justification must be seen, not as a once-for-all event, but as a process which continues throughout the believer’s life. In fact, it is even a process which extends beyond the believer’s life. This is shown by passages in Scripture where Paul indicates that there is a sense in which our justification is still future:
” . . . for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;” (Romans 2:13
)
“Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” (Romans 3:20
)

Since this passage speaks of salvation in the past tense, something that has been done to us, it is conceiving of salvation as a past reality.
But this is only one aspect of salvation. There is an ongoing aspect to salvation as well, as is indicated in 1st Peter 1:8-9
, which states,
” . . . Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving . . . the salvation of your souls.”
The same idea of salvation as something that is taking place presently is found in the writings of the St. Paul as well, for example, in Philippians 2:12
he states,
“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”
Salvation in the Bible is therefore also a pr
“And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.” (Romans 13:11
)
“If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” (1Corinthians 3:15
)
” . . . deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” (1Corinthians 5:5
)

These verses all speak of salvation in the future tense, as something that will happen to us in the future. Therefore, salvation has past, present, and future aspects or dimensions.
If we were to offer a general definition of salvation, including its past, present, and future dimensions, we would say something like, “Salvation is a process which begins when a person first becomes a Christian, which continues through the rest of his life, and which concludes on the Last Day.” This definition allows the faithful Christian to do justice to all of the Biblical data by saying, “I have been saved; I am being saved; and I will be saved.” It embraces all three of the aspects of salvation which are present in the biblical literature.
 
Jul 8, 2016
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We receive Salvation by the GRACE of God. Not by anything we do. AND we cannot lose our Salvation at all.

1 John 3:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. [SUP]5 [/SUP]You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. [SUP]6 [/SUP]No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; [SUP]8 [/SUP]the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. [SUP]9[/SUP]No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We cannot sin when we abide in God!
Dear VDP
Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an "absolute" assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22; Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).
 
Jul 8, 2016
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It's interesting how we pick and choose our scripture!
What do you make of 1 John 1:8-10 ?

Fran
Dear Fran,
Lets take a look at that whole pericope
If we say, “We are without sin,” we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing. 10 If we say, “We have not sinned,” we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
New American Bible. (2011). (Revised Edition, 1 Jn 1:8–10). Washington, DC: The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

Then St John goes on to say:
My children, I am writing this to you so that you may not commit sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one. 2 He is expiation for our sins, and not for our sins only but for those of the whole world. 3 The way we may be sure that we know him is to keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps his word, the love of God is truly perfected in him. This is the way we may know that we are in union with him: 6 whoever claims to abide in him ought to live [just] as he lived.
New American Bible. (2011). (Revised Edition, 1 Jn 2:1–6). Washington, DC: The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

So St John is writing to "saved" baptized Christians. These folk are not pagans. How do I know" firstly St John calls them "my children". So these folks are believers.
But whoever keeps his word, the love of God is truly perfected in him.

So, Like St Paul, who "qualifies faith with the "obedience of faith, or Gal 5 faith working through charity, These are necessary.
and part of salvation. Being obedient, loving our neighbor, keeping the commandments, these are all "add on's as you say.

Does being "saved" mean we will automatically do them? No. Philippians 2:12 says, "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." This is not the language of self-confident assurance. Our salvation is something that remains to be worked out.
 
Jul 8, 2016
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We receive Salvation by the GRACE of God. Not by anything we do. AND we cannot lose our Salvation at all.

1 John 3:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. [SUP]5 [/SUP]You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. [SUP]6 [/SUP]No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; [SUP]8 [/SUP]the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. [SUP]9[/SUP]No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We cannot sin when we abide in God!
Dear VDP
Lets look at that whole passage.
No one who is begotten by God commits sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot sin because he is begotten by God. 10 In this way, the children of God and the children of the devil are made plain; no one who fails to act in righteousness belongs to God, nor anyone who does not love his brother.
New American Bible. (2011). (Revised Edition, 1 Jn 3:9–10). Washington, DC: The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

You didn't quote the whole thought of St John.
In this way, the children of God and the children of the devil are made plain; no one who fails to act in righteousness belongs to God, nor anyone who does not love his brother.


We must "do something" that is "act in righteousness to our neighbor. faith plus works = salvation because the good works we do are not of our own, but the give glory to God.


"Therefore, you are without excuse, every one of you who passes judgment. For by the standard by which you judge another you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the very same things. 2 We know that the judgment of God on those who do such things is true. 3 Do you suppose, then, you who judge those who engage in such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you hold his priceless kindness, forbearance, and patience in low esteem, unaware that the kindness of God would lead you to repentance? 5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, 6 who will repay everyone according to his works: 7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, 8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. 9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. 10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. 11 h There is no partiality with God.

New American Bible. (2011). (Revised Edition, Ro 2:1–11). Washington, DC: The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

We will be judged by what we do. These are not options. And it doesn't mean we will "automatically do them.

St Paul tells the Galatians
16 I say, then: live by the Spirit and you will certainly not gratify the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh has desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you may not do what you want. 18 But if you are guided by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, 21 occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22

Ok, We can assume the Galatians were a believing community. Everyone "baptized "saved". Apparently some of them started to commit some serious sins ( must have happened after they did the altar call at Church) St Paul warns them if they continue they will lose their salvation.
This is why St Paul says

And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6).

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome" (1 John 5:3).

See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).


once saved always saved is simply un defensible.
 
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What did the early Church teach and practice about baptism? In all the early Church documents we have, and there are lots, not one reference is made to "accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior and "your saved" Not one . In 1500 years of Church history.
Baptism, adult and infant, was and is considered to be the Sacrament of faith. We Become children of God. "born again" through the waters of baptism.
One key Scripture reference to being "born again" or "regenerated" is John 3:5, where Jesus says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
This verse is so important that those who say baptism is just a symbol must deny that Jesus here refers to baptism. "Born again" Christians claim the "water" is the preached word of God.
But the early Christians uniformly identified this verse with baptism. Water baptism is the way, they said, that we are born again and receive new life—a fact that is supported elsewhere in Scripture (Rom. 6:3–4; Col. 2:12–13; Titus 3:5).
No Church Father referred to John 3:5 as anything other than water baptism.

Justin Martyr

"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus

"‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).

Tertullian

"[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’" (Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).

Hippolytus

"The Father of immortality sent the immortal Son and Word into the world, who came to man in order to wash him with water and the Spirit; and he, begetting us again to incorruption of soul and body, breathed into us the Spirit of life, and endued us with an incorruptible panoply. If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead. Wherefore I preach to this effect: Come, all ye kindreds of the nations, to the immortality of the baptism" (Discourse on the Holy Theophany 8 [A.D. 217]).

The Recognitions of Clement

"But you will perhaps say, ‘What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?’ In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: ‘Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (The Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).
Testimonies Concerning the Jews

"That unless a man have been baptized and born again, he cannot attain unto the kingdom of God. In the Gospel according to John: ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’ [John 3:5]. . . . Also in the same place: ‘Unless ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye shall not have life in you’ [John 6:53]. That it is of small account to be baptized and to receive the Eucharist, unless one profit by it both in deeds and works" (Testimonies Concerning the Jews 3:2:25–26 [A.D. 240]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"[When] they receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’" (Letters 71[72]:1 [A.D. 253]).

Council of Carthage VII

"And in the gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ . . . Unless therefore they receive saving baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ" (Seventh Carthage [A.D. 256]).
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
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I keep everything in mind when I answer to a post.

I like to keep in mind that we're supposed to love each other, not tear each other down.

And regarding God not hearing sinners:

Are you not a sinner??
Do you suppose he hears YOU??

Fran
What Roger was saying is that once you are born of the Spirit you then have access to God, through Jesus. Until then you don't have access. HOWEVER - He does listen to non believers who pray for salvation. Once saved they then have access as a new child of God.

Here are the scriptures for that....

Isaiah 59:1-2: "Behold, the Lord’s hand is not shortened, That it cannot save; Nor His ear heavy, That it cannot hear. But your iniquities have separated you from your God; And your sins have hidden His face from you, So that He will not hear"


1 Peter 3:12: For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, And His ears are open to their prayers; But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
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Dear Katie Follower
Can you show me where in the bible it says we
Are saved by " faith alone"
Faith in Christ ALONE... His work ALONE... His ONE perfect sacrifice ALONE. Nothing added. The entire bible speaks of this. Who can compare to Christ's sacrifice? How can we do anything that would make us worthy? We can't. It's His work ALONE.

Ephesians 2:8-10: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them"

Grace through faith in HIS work
Not of ourselves - nothing we do (so we cannot boast about it)
The works are a result of salvation (they come afterwards - they don't save us)


Romans 3:27-28: "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law"

James 2:17-18: Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works" - context here.... a person who is saved will bear good fruit. A bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Works comes after being saved. If the person is not saved to begin with then it will be obvious because they will not show these good works in their life. The works come after salvation, not before.
 
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Dear Mail maiden
The Carholic Church believes Christ's sacrifice is all sufficient. The Church also teaches that we are saved by grace alone through faith.
What we don't believe is we are saved by " faith alone". Let me qualify here for you.
Sacraments like baptism are not looked at as "works". In fact baptism is neccesssry for salvation. Cathoilic s do not believe you " earn your way into Heaven. In fact that is a herasy condemned back in the 4th century by the Church
A good way to explain it is look at Eph 2 8:11
St. Paul saysw
" for it is by grace you have been saved through faith "
St Paul is talking about a chronological period of time " before we are saved" In other words nothing we can do can put God under obligation to pay us for doing good works.now look at the rest of the verses.
" and this is not from yourself it is a work of God".
St Paul is now speaking about the moment we become children of God.
Now look at the next verses. So soon as we become children of God
Verse for we are his workmanship made for good works
I thought St Paul just said good works dousnt earn salvation!!
They don't. But once we become children of God ( saved in your language) good works are neccessary and very much apart of our salvation

If you look closely at Sacred Scripture you will find lots of things are " neccesssry for salvation "
Faith
Repentence
Keeping the commandments
Baptism
Loving our neighbor as ourself
Forgiving others
Confessing Christ

Scrioture teaches that all these things are neccessary.



Now I would like to challenge you to show me where in the Bible that it states that we are saved by " faith alone"?



The Catholic Church doesn't believe Christ's sacrifice is all sufficient. The Church also teaches that we are saved by grace alone through faith.

That's why they have to do works, indulgencies, penance and they believe they have to go through purgatory to be purified.

OH, Catholics do say they believe in the all sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice, But in reality, They don't.

Water baptism isn't necessary for salvation. The disciples were baptised, but they weren't saved, [At that time].
Paul was saved for three days before he was baptised in the Holy Ghost, but he wasn't baptised in water[ at that time.
The Gentiles were saved, baptised in the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues, but they weren't baptised in water [at that time]
The disciples in Acts 19, were saved for who knows how long, but they weren't baptised with the Christian baptism [At that time].
So you can see that the Bible doesn't teach salvation by water baptism.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Hi Mailmandan,
I usually agree with you but I'd like to make something clear here.
There is initial salvation which requires to work. It is justification by faith, by believing. Ephesians 2:8
Okay.
Initial salvation? Requires to work?

But it IS true that we are to live in a certain manner in order to keep our salvation. Do you not believe this? Do you believe one could do whatever he wants to and still be saved? Are you OSAS?
Salvation is neither attained or maintained by works. Initial salvation through faith but ultimate salvation by works is type 2 works salvation. I believe in eternal security of the believer (preservation of the saints - Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1; Ephesians 1:13-14). From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is through faith and is not by works.

I believe the hyper faith movement is ruining the church.
Jesus did NOT say all we needed to stay saved was to declare Him as Savior and believe in Him.
Works salvationists have already ruined the church. Jesus did not say that we maintain our salvation by works. To the contrary, Jesus said those BELIEVE IN HIM shall not perish, are not condemned, have eternal life (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25:26). It sounds like you don't "fully" trust in Jesus to save you from beginning to end, but you also trust in your works to help keep you saved. Is that true?

First of all the word Believe means to believe in the heart, not in the mind. It means to trust, to follow. to adhere to.
To follow what? To adhere to what?
We do believe in our heart and not just in our head (Romans 10:10). The word translated believe is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ)." Following Jesus is the demonstrative evidence that we believe in Him. Good works are the fruit of believing in Him, but not the essence of believing in Him.

On the Deacon's list is:
Faith. Yes. You must have faith.
Repentance. Yes. You must repent. TURN AROUND and go the other way. Toward God and not toward satan.
Follow Commandments: Yes. Jesus said He did not come to ABOLISH the law and that not one iota is to be removed. He came to fulfill the Law. What does this mean? To complete. To make whole. To make it possible to follow it. NOT to abolish it.
Loving Neighbor: Jesus said to do this.
Forgiving others: Ditto
Confessing Christ: yes. Paul spoke to this. And also Jesus. Who is not ashamed of me...
Those who have been saved through faith have already chosen to repent and believe the gospel. Children of God keep His commandments, love their neighbor (though not perfectly, we are not sinless and perfect) forgive others and confess Christ, as I already explained in posts #496 and #497. I noticed that you left out baptism. Do you believe that water baptism is absolutely required for salvation? Dipped or condemned?

I think the church has been brainwashed and we're so afraid of WORKS that we tilt the tables too much to the side of DOING NOTHING!
There is not such thing as being a born again Christian and doing absolutely nothing. All genuine Christians are fruitful, but not are equally fruitful. Works salvationists have been brainwashed into thinking that if they don't do enough works then Jesus won't be able to save them.

What say you?
Just said it.
 
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Dear Mail Maiden

I think you just have shown that faith working in charity in neccesssry for salvation. Which is of course the Cathoilic and biblical position. Remember. Faith without works is dead. It dousnt save. Period
 
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Dear God for Me

The Catholic Church has a Catechism on line for free. It would be wise before discussing What the Catholic Church teaches to look it up first. At least you would have an accurate true statement. It does no one any good to try and explain a teaching if they are not willing to first find out what the Church really teaches. The reason I know so much about Protestant doctrines is because I was one once and studied it. From the best Protestsnt sources.
Do the same and you will be able to critique the Church from an educated view. Just a suggestion
Peace