Questions about the bible !

[ukok102nak]

:hrmm: perhaps what it counts here is the intention
as it is written
:read:
Genesis: 18. 20. And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21. I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
22. And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
23. And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24. Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25. That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
26. And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
27. And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:
28. Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.
29. And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.
30. And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.
31. And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.
32. And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.
33. And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.
~;> AND THIS SCRIPTURES CORRESPOND
UNTO THIS WORDS THAT SAYS SOMETHING ABOUT ... .
as it is written
:read:
Genesis: 7. 66. And that he is of great mercy, for he multiplieth more and more mercies to them that are present, and that are past, and also to them which are to come.
67. For if he shall not multiply his mercies, the world would not continue with them that inherit therein.
68. And he pardoneth; for if he did not so of his goodness, that they which have committed iniquities might be eased of them, the ten thousandth part of men should not remain living.
69. And being judge, if he should not forgive them that are cured with his word, and put out the multitude of contentions, 70. There should be very few left peradventure in an innumerable multitude.

:ty:

godbless us all always

 

[alexxcjRO]

trofimus :”It depends what view do you hold. If you are asking about Old Earth Creationism: Reasons To Believe : Hominids”

The article you send me says this:
“RTB's biblical creation model identifies "hominids," Neanderthals, Homo erectus and others, as animals created by God. These extra-ordinary creatures walked erect and possessed enough intelligence to assemble crude tools and even adopt some level of “culture.” The RTB model maintains that the hominids were not spiritual beings made in God’s image. RTB’s model reserves this status exclusively for Adam and Eve and their descendants (modern humans).
The model predicts many biological similarities will exist between the hominids and modern humans but also significant differences. The greatest distinctions between modern humans and the hominids can be seen in their cognitive capacity, behavior patterns, technological development, and culture, especially artistic and religious expression.”

1. Neanderthals they had skulls and brains bigger then early humans.
2. Neanderthals share 99.5% of their DNA with modern humans.
3. Now scientists have concluded that Neanderthals were not the primitive dimwits they are commonly portrayed to have been but that they were highly intelligent, able to adapt to a wide variety of ecological zones, and capable of developing highly functional tools to help them do so, buried their dead, cared for the sick and even conversed. Rather than being outwitted by the more numerous early humans, Neanderthals were just as sophisticated - but so impressed the humans they were seen as potential mates, say scientists. The interbreeding meant that their own line died out. Researchers studied computer models of how hominin groups evolved in reponse to climate change in the last Ice Age, looking at culture and biology amongst hunter gatherers between 11,500 and 128,000 years ago, reports journal Human Ecology. Neanderthals could have disappeared not because they were somehow less fit than all other hominins who existed during the last glaciation, but because they were as behaviorally sophisticated as modern humans.

History, Travel, Arts, Science, People, Places | Smithsonian
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/apr/30/neanderthals-not-less-intelligent-humans-scientists
Neanderthals were too smart for their own good - Telegraph
Neanderthal Intelligence Not Inferior To That Of Early Modern Humans, Scientists Say
So what are you saying is that Neanderthals are just stupid animals, inferior to modern humans.
If you look objectively Neanderthals were not more animals or stupid then early modern humans were.


trofimus :”am kind of agnostic about this topic, because I do not have enough information what will be the new universe and hell like.
We have only images and the promise it will be something we cannot imagine now, in this dimension. What do you want to build from images? Its futile.”

So you are agnostic because you don’t have more information.
By the same logic you should be agnostic too when it comes of Jesus resurrection because there is not enough information and actual evidence that he indeed resurrected; or about Heaven. In fact there is more information, and descriptions about hell/Lake of fire then it is about Heaven. Are you agnostic too when it comes of Heaven ?
So your agnostic when it comes to bad things in the bible but a strong believer when it comes to good things in the bible.

What about all these versus that describe hell in Luke, Matthew, Revelation.
“Believers Who Have Died
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.”
(1 Thessalonians 4:13-14)
“[SUP]43 [/SUP]Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.””
(Luke 23:43)
“[SUP]22 [/SUP]The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. [SUP]23 [/SUP]In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.” (Luke 16:22-23)
“The Judgment of the Dead
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.”
(Revelation 20:11-12)
“[SUP]28 [/SUP]Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” (Matthew 10:28)
“[SUP]14 [/SUP]Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.” (Revelation 20:14)
“[SUP]9 [/SUP]Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever.” (Revelation 4:9)
“[SUP]7 [/SUP]Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever.” (Revelation 15:7)
“[SUP]10[/SUP] And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10)
“[SUP]10[/SUP] they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. [SUP]11[/SUP] And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.””(Revelation 14:10-11)
“[SUP]41[/SUP] “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Matthew 25:41)
“[SUP]46[/SUP] “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.””(Matthew 25:46)
“[SUP]13[/SUP] They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever."(Jude 13)
“[SUP]9[/SUP]They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
Hell is a place of great torment:
“[SUP]50[/SUP] and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”(Matthew 13:50)
“[SUP]43 [/SUP]If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.”(Mark 9:43)
“[SUP]48[/SUP]where ‘the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.’” (Mark 9:48)

You don't believe Hell/Lake of Fire is a place of torment ?

Can you answer these few questions also:
Do you believe that modern humans didn't evolved from one of the subspecies of humans?
Do you believe that the story of the Noah's global flood is a myth?
Do you believe the story that God made the first man out of dirt is a myth?
Do you believe that the stories about nephilims, giants are myth?

 

[ukok102nak]

:hrmm: perhaps what it counts here is the intention
as it is written
:read:
Genesis: 18. 20. And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21. I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
22. And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
23. And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24. Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25. That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
26. And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
27. And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:
28. Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.
29. And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.
30. And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.
31. And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.
32. And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.
33. And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.
~;> AND THIS SCRIPTURES CORRESPOND
UNTO THIS WORDS THAT SAYS SOMETHING ABOUT ... .
as it is written
:read:
Genesis: 7. 66. And that he is of great mercy, for he multiplieth more and more mercies to them that are present, and that are past, and also to them which are to come.
67. For if he shall not multiply his mercies, the world would not continue with them that inherit therein.
68. And he pardoneth; for if he did not so of his goodness, that they which have committed iniquities might be eased of them, the ten thousandth part of men should not remain living.
69. And being judge, if he should not forgive them that are cured with his word, and put out the multitude of contentions, 70. There should be very few left peradventure in an innumerable multitude.

:ty:

godbless us all always

:haha: hey you two :hrmm: and ~;>
they wouldnt understand how in the world you got Genesis 7:66
when the scriptures says Genesis 7
has only twenty four verses

... . by the way my brethrens my brothers and sisters
believers and unbelievers (hope they change their ways)
JUST PUT THE GOOD AND DOESNT LIE
AND FORGIVE
AND FORGET THAT chapter and verses that was posted
by our brethrens
because the scriptures were written without chapters and verses
in the first place

. ... they were just giving the codes
that is

:ty:

godbless us all always

 

[trofimus]

"So what are you saying is that Neanderthals are just stupid animals, inferior to modern humans. "

No, what RTB is saying is, that Neanderthals were inteligent animals.
You should address this question to them or to watch more of their videos.

I just showed you that many christians do not hold Earth and humanity are 6000 years old.

By the same logic you should be agnostic too when it comes of Jesus resurrection

No, because the resurrection of Jesus is a historical event. And as such, it is provable.

Images and prophecies about future are always dimmish. And remember that it is also what the Bible says, that we cannot imagine the new Universe and Earth.

You don't believe Hell/Lake of Fire is a place of torment ?

I do. But I dont know exactly how the torment will look like and how long it will last. Greek is "for ages", it does not have to mean "without end" like in English.

Can you answer these few questions also:
Do you believe that modern humans didn't evolved from one of the subspecies of humans?
Do you believe that the story of the Noah's global flood is a myth?
Do you believe the story that God made the first man out of dirt is a myth?
Do you believe that the stories about nephilims, giants are myth?

I dont accept the word "myth" related to sacred Scriptures. There can be images, symbols, dramatical pictures, but not myths.

a) I am somewhere between theistic evolution and progressive creationism, so I cant say for certain. But I believe that Adam was a direct God´s touch and act. I dont know, if "dust from the Earth" should be taken literally or as a symbol of some lower animal.
Btw, what is a subspecies of human? Everything was shown as to be a blind evolution branch, not our direct ancestor.

b), c), d) see my view on "myths" in Bible

 

[alexxcjRO]

trofimus :"No, because the resurrection of Jesus is a historical event. And as such, it is provable."

What proof are you talking about, except the fact the it says in the bible?
I don't know of actual evidence proving that Jesus resurrected, i maybe be wrong?

trofimus : I do. But I dont know exactly how the torment will look like and how long it will last. Greek is "for ages", it does not have to mean "without end" like in English.

Let's look at some verses:
“[SUP]9 [/SUP]Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever.” (Revelation 4:9)
“[SUP]7 [/SUP]Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever.” (Revelation 15:7)
“[SUP]10[/SUP] And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10)
“[SUP]10[/SUP] they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. [SUP]11[/SUP] And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.””(Revelation 14:10-11)
“[SUP]41[/SUP] “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Matthew 25:41)
“[SUP]46[/SUP] “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.””(Matthew 25:46)
“[SUP]13[/SUP] They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever."(Jude 13)
“[SUP]9[/SUP]They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
Hell is a place of great torment:
“[SUP]50[/SUP] and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”(Matthew 13:50)
“[SUP]48[/SUP]where ‘the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.’” (Mark 9:48)


God(Yahweh) is eternal, does not die, lives forever and exists beyond the infinity. Statement in the bible:” God, who lives for ever and ever.” This demonstrates that the phrase “for ever and ever” means without end, eternal, infinite.
Lake of fire is a place of eternal conscious torment and punishment for the devil, his fallen angels and for the men who are not saved; a place of darkness reserved; banishment away from God(Yahweh)'s presence; a place where the fire that burn them never goes out, the worms that eat them do not die and the smoke of their torment rises up “for ever and ever”.
So because we see the use of the terms "for ever and ever” in description of the Lake of Fire and both the description of God(Yahweh) demonstrates that indeed Lake of Fire is a place of eternal conscious torment for those who are not saved. Also this is demonstrated by the phrase that says that the worms that eat their body do not die which means that their body won’t be destroyed or obliterated but will last and be eaten forever. Even if the worm is a metaphor for anguish and psychological torment , it doesn't matter, because if this torment that will torture your mind never ends that means that you yourself never end. How can something torture something that does not exist anymore?

 

[trofimus]

What proof are you talking about, except the fact the it says in the bible?
I don't know of actual evidence proving that Jesus resurrected, i maybe be wrong?

I thought you are Christian for quite a long time, many years. You do not know any evidences for the ressurection of Christ?
Googling it will be more efective for you than me writing it here.
I think that William L. Crane you have mentioned before has a good videos about this topic on his channel.

Hell and eternity
- you are quoting English, but we would have to look at Greek
- Bible says that the result of sin is death and the mercy brings us the eternal life
- eternal torment in hell would be eternal life, too, not death

So I can imagine both variants to be true.

 

[trofimus]

Some proofs Christ did rise from the dead, by W.L. Crane:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmKg62GDqF4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iyxR8uE9GQ

 

[Chester]

AlexxcjRO wrote: Man you don’t understand how probability works and what parallel universe means. When you have an infinite possible combinations of values for certain constants the probability that one of this combination of values (the one find in our universe) exists is 100%.
Please read this again:
Many Christians see these apparent enormous coincidences as substantiating the Christian claim that the universe has been created by a personal God(Yahweh) who intends that there be intelligent life; they take fine-tuning as offering he material for a good "Yahweh created the universe" argument. Mostly they argue that the probability of these fine-tuning phenomena on Christianity is much greater than their probability on the chance hypothesis. Here the conclusion is not that probably "Yahweh created the universe" is true, but rather that "Yahweh created the universe" is much better supported by these phenomena than the chance hypothesis is.
A good objection to fine-tuning arguments is the “many universes” suggestion: perhaps there are very many, even infinitely many different universes or worlds; the cosmological constants take on different values in different worlds, so that very many (perhaps all possible) different sets of such values get exemplified in one world or another. Couldn't there be an eternal cycle of ‘big bangs’, with subsequent expansion to a certain limit and then subsequent contraction to a ‘big crunch’ at which the cosmological values are arbitrarily reset? Alternatively, couldn't it have been that at the Big Bang, there was enormous initial inflation, resulting in many cosmoses with many different settings for the physical constants? In either case it isn't at all surprising that in one or another of the resulting universes, the values of the cosmological constants are such as to be life-permitting. Nor is it at all surprising that the universe in which we find ourselves has life-permitting values; we couldn't exist elsewhere. If so, then the fine-tuning argument is ineffective: the probability of fine-tuning on the many worlds suggestion is at least as large as the probability of fine-tuning on Christianity. “

Response:
Oh, I think I know a bit how probability works - what you are trying to do is get enough possibilities out there so that the chance gets up to 1. I keep insisting that before you can get one "chance" you have to have something to start with. Virtual particles even if not in existence still have to have a beginning - even space has to have a beginning.

I don't really buy or put that much stock in what you call the "fine-tuning phenomena ". So when you say "Here the conclusion is not that probably "Yahweh created the universe" is true, but rather that "Yahweh created the universe" is much better supported by these phenomena than the chance hypothesis is." I wouldn't say it that way at all: I would just say that I have found the Bible and the God of the Bible completely trustworthy and the Bible says Yahweh created the universe and so I take that as the foundation of truth. There isn't even a chance that it was otherwise. Of course people can call me a fool for that view, but my basis is that the Bible is trustworthy and I have found God to be trustworthy. Furthermore, when I look at the evidence in the world around me and what I find in science and nature it corresponds with what the Bible says.

In your situation, I understand you are trying to use the best reasoning and logic and evidence to find what is truth. Go for it! I am still willing to try to help answer questions about what I believe or about the Bible. But the bottom line for me personally is that my faith is built upon the God of the Bible.

 

[Chester]

Chester : "Response: I lost your train of thought further back, so I don't understand how you came up with your conclusions?"


Let me put it more explicitly(hope you understand better):

Logical deduction:

1.All humans are equal objects of God's unconditional love in the sense that God, being no respecter of persons, sincerely wills or desires to reconcile each one of them to himself and thus to prepare each one of them for the bliss of union with him.(this is considered true by Christians; God is all loving and omnibenevolent)
2.God is omnipotent and omniscient while Satan and man are infinitely more weak and ignorant.(this is considered true by Christians ; Satan and man are God's creation therefore they are inferior to him; finite against infinite)
3.God is infinitely wise with an infinite IQ while Satan and man are infinitely more foolish and stupid.(this is considered true by Christians; Satan and man are God's creation therefore they are and inferior to him ; finite against infinite)
4.Nobody will get out of hell. (this is considered true by Christians)
5.In an infinite war between God and Satan for the hearts and minds of billions of sinners, the infinitely more weak Satan will win all fights against the omnipotent and omniscient God. The all mighty, omnipotent and omniscient God will not win not even a single fight.(this is deduced from 4)
6.Through random chance ​all sinners will retain their libertarian freedom forever even though an omnipotent God tries to win over all of them (and do so without causally determining their choices) ; all will successfully resist God's salvific will forever.(Like for example i toss a coin for an infinite numbers of times and not a single time the coin lands heads) (this is deduced from 4)
7.Many men have freely-as free moral agents (even with Satan involvement) in their finite lives on Earth chose God.
(this is considered true by Christians; thousands will chose God during their mortal life and be saved and go to Heaven)
8.Not a single man will freely-as free moral agents(even with Satan involvement) in their infinite stay in Hell choose God.(this is deduced from 4)

Logical conclusion: God(Yahweh) is either not omnipotent, not omniscient and not infinitely wise or melevolent.

Response:
Respponse: On point #4 - No one will get out of hell once they are in hell because their time of free choice ends when they die (physically). But not everyone will be in hell. God is winning and will continue to win the war in many people's hearts and they will be in heaven. So I am not understanding point #5 when you say God will not win any of the fights. . .?

On point #8 - though man (in hell) may want to choose God the door and opportunity that God will accept repentance is closed

on point #6 - I am not sure where you are getting an infinite amount of time in any human person's life? God gives everyone a limited number of years of life - and we have free choice during those years - but then God closes the door for a change of eternal destiny. People in hell may still have the freedom to choose to "repent" and believe in God, but their destiny was sealed by their life on earth.

Still not sure I am understanding you here,- explain more if you need . . .

 

[alexxcjRO]

trofimus :”hell and eternity
- you are quoting English, but we would have to look at Greek
- Bible says that the result of sin is death and the mercy brings us the eternal life
- eternal torment in hell would be eternal life, too, not death
So I can imagine both variants to be true.
Some proofs Christ did rise from the dead, by W.L. Crane:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmKg62GDqF4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iyxR8uE9GQ”

1. Don’t you believe in The Free Will theodicy of Hell like W. L. Crane does?
If you thinks this is bollocks why would you believe anything he says about any other subject?
2. Man I already know about this so called evidence.
I thought there is some evidence that is independent of the bible, that I missed.
Seriously ? This is it?
The evidence that some story in the bible(the resurrection of Jesus)is true is the fact that some characters in the bible said it is true. So the evidence for the bible is the bible.
First you have to prove that people in the bible that said something about Jesus are true historical persons and not just some names in a book or a scroll(some skeletons found with something written next to them that shows their names, and that it corresponds with those in the bible) and to prove that they are really the ones that wrote the new testament gospels. Also you need to prove Jesus was a real historical figure of that time from multiple independent sources. It is said the first century was a well documented period of human history. You would think there would be multiple sources of information on extraordinary people and sensational events.

Chester : “Most fossils and human remains are dated by the layers that they are found in. Some are dated by radiometric dating or other means. No one was there when these remains were buried. There are so many assumed things in the dating systems used that makes them very unprovable. This is one of the major arguments used against the young Earth Creation model, but the millions of years idea is not observational science. No one observed or took careful scientific observations of the age of the human remains or of the other fossils. What we have is extrapolations back into history based on what is seen in the present. And when these dating methods are used on rocks that have known dates of only hundreds of years old, they will sometimes test as millions of years old. “

So all these dating methods are all faulty?
[TABLE="width: 626"]
[TR]
[TD]Name of Method
[/TD]
[TD]Age Range of Application
[/TD]
[TD]Material Dated
[/TD]
[TD]Methodology
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Radiocarbon
[/TD]
[TD]1 - 70,000 years
[/TD]
[TD]Organic material such as bones, wood, charcoal, shells
[/TD]
[TD]Radioactive decay of [SUP]14[/SUP]C in organic matter after removal from bioshpere
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]K-Ar dating
[/TD]
[TD]1,000 - billion of years
[/TD]
[TD]Potassium-bearing minerals and glasses
[/TD]
[TD]Radioactive decay of [SUP]40[/SUP]K in rocks and minerals
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Uranium-Lead
[/TD]
[TD]10,000 - billion of years
[/TD]
[TD]Uranium-bearing minerals
[/TD]
[TD]Radioactive decay of uranium to lead via two separate decay chains
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Uranium series
[/TD]
[TD]1,000 - 500,000 years
[/TD]
[TD]Uranium-bearing minerals, corals, shells, teeth, CaCO[SUB]3[/SUB]
[/TD]
[TD]Radioactive decay of [SUP]234[/SUP]U to [SUP]230[/SUP]Th
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Fission track
[/TD]
[TD]1,000 - billion of years
[/TD]
[TD]Uranium-bearing minerals and glasses
[/TD]
[TD]Measurement of damage tracks in glass and minerals from the radioactive decay of [SUP]238[/SUP]U
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Luminescence (optically or thermally stimulated)
[/TD]
[TD]1,000 - 1,000,000 years
[/TD]
[TD]Quartz, feldspar, stone tools, pottery
[/TD]
[TD]Burial or heating age based on the accumulation of radiation-induced damage to electron sitting in mineral lattices
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Electron Spin Resonance (ESR)
[/TD]
[TD]1,000 - 3,000,000 years
[/TD]
[TD]Uranium-bearing materials in which uranium has been absorbed from outside sources
[/TD]
[TD]Burial age based on abundance of radiation-induced paramagnetic centers in mineral lattices
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Cosmogenic Nuclides
[/TD]
[TD]1,000 - 5,000,000 years
[/TD]
[TD]Typically quartz or olivine from volcanic or sedimentary rocks
[/TD]
[TD]Radioactive decay of cosmic-ray generated nuclides in surficial environments
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Magnetostratigraphy
[/TD]
[TD]20,000 - billion of years
[/TD]
[TD]Sedimentary and volcanic rocks
[/TD]
[TD]Measurement of ancient polarity of the earth's magnetic field recorded in a stratigraphic succession
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tephrochronology
[/TD]
[TD]100 - billions of years
[/TD]
[TD]Volcanic ejecta
[/TD]
[TD]Uses chemistry and age of volcanic deposits to establish links between distant stratigraphic successions
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 4"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

For example The Dead Sea Scrolls were date using the radiocarbon and paleographic dating.
Both told the same story that the scrolls were from ~400BCE. Meaning that radiocarbon is good tool for dating things.
But by your logic because these testing methods are faulty it also could lead me to say that the bible scrolls maybe were written much sooner, like 1000 years ago or even 100 years ago. Seriously?

Chester: “I don't really buy or put that much stock in what you call the "fine-tuning phenomena ". So when you say "Here the conclusion is not that probably "Yahweh created the universe" is true, but rather that "Yahweh created the universe" is much better supported by these phenomena than the chance hypothesis is." I wouldn't say it that way at all: I would just say that I have found the Bible and the God of the Bible completely trustworthy and the Bible says Yahweh created the universe and so I take that as the foundation of truth. There isn't even a chance that it was otherwise. Of course people can call me a fool for that view, but my basis is that the Bible is trustworthy and I have found God to be trustworthy. Furthermore, when I look at the evidence in the world around me and what I find in science and nature it corresponds with what the Bible says.

In your situation, I understand you are trying to use the best reasoning and logic and evidence to find what is truth. Go for it! I am still willing to try to help answer questions about what I believe or about the Bible. But the bottom line for me personally is that my faith is built upon the God of the Bible.”

Conclusion :
-You are believing basically, on blind faith.
-Fine tuning of the universe and Ex nihilo creation arguments being proof for Yahweh created our universe are weak arguments when you have Parallel Universe Theory, String theory and Virtual particles. It’s called God of the gaps theory. People when don’t know how something works or how it came to be use the “God must have did it“.

Chester: “On point #4 - No one will get out of hell once they are in hell because their time of free choice ends when they die (physically). But not everyone will be in hell. God is winning and will continue to win the war in many people's hearts and they will be in heaven. So I am not understanding point #5 when you say God will not win any of the fights. . .?

On point #8 - though man (in hell) may want to choose God the door and opportunity that God will accept repentance is closed

on point #6 - I am not sure where you are getting an infinite amount of time in any human person's life? God gives everyone a limited number of years of life - and we have free choice during those years - but then God closes the door for a change of eternal destiny. People in hell may still have the freedom to choose to "repent" and believe in God, but their destiny was sealed by their life on earth.

Still not sure I am understanding you here,- explain more if you need . . .”

This was a logical deduction for the free will theodicy of Hell/Lake of Fire that tells that theoretically people can get out hell, that Hell/Lake of Fire is locked on the inside but none will change their mind and remain forever there. (as Dr. W. L. Crane and C.S. Lewis thought).
I thought you were on same page with them, my bad.
So you are saying Hell/Lake of Fire is locked from the outside, not inside; that they can’t get out of there and that God is not trying to reconcile with all humanity?
You had your chance during your life on Earth and that’s it.

 

[alexxcjRO]

Chester :“Most fossils and human remains are dated by the layers that they are found in. Some are dated by radiometric dating or other means. No one was there when these remains were buried. There are so many assumed things in the dating systems used that makes them very unprovable. “

What about archaeological site that show human settlements older then 8000-9000 years?
Göbekli Tepe is an archaeological site at the top of a mountain ridge in the Southeastern Anatolia Region of modern-day Turkey, approximately 12 km (7 mi) northeast of the city of Şanlıurfa. The tell has a height of 15 m (49 feet) and is about 300 m (984 feet) in diameter. It is approximately 760 m (2,493 feet) above sea level. The tell includes two phases of ritual use dating back to the 10th – 8th millennium BCE. During the first phase, pre-pottery Neolithic A (PPNA), circles of massive T-shaped stone pillars were erected. More than 200 pillars in about 20 circles are currently known through geophysical surveys. Each pillar has a height of up to 6 m (20 feet) and a weight of up to 20 tons. They are fitted into sockets that were hewn out of the bedrock. In the second phase, Pre-Pottery Neolithic B (PPNB), the erected pillars are smaller and stood in rectangular rooms with floors of polished lime. The site was abandoned after the PPNB-period. Younger structures date to classical times.
The purpose of the structures is not yet clear. It was excavated by a German archaeological team under the direction of Klaus Schmidt from 1996 until his death in 2014; Schmidt believed that they had been early neolithic sanctuaries.

Discovery:
The site was first noted in a survey conducted by Istanbul University and the University of Chicago in 1963. American archaeologist Peter Benedict identified it as being possibly neolithic and postulated that the Neolithic layers were topped by Byzantine and Islamic cemeteries. The survey noted numerous flints. Huge limestone slabs, upper parts of the T-shaped pillars, were thought to be grave markers. The hill had long been under agricultural cultivation, and generations of local inhabitants had frequently moved rocks and placed them in clearance piles, possibly destroying archaeological evidence in the process. In 1994, Klaus Schmidt, of the German Archaeological Institute, who had previously been working at Nevalı Çori, was looking for another site to lead a dig. He reviewed the archaeological literature on the surrounding area, found the Chicago researchers’ brief description of Göbekli Tepe, and decided to give it another look. With his knowledge of comparable objects at Nevalı Çori, he recognized the possibility that the rocks and slabs were parts of T-shaped pillars. The following year, he began excavating there in collaboration with the Şanlıurfa Museum. Huge T-shaped pillars were soon discovered. Some had apparently been subjected to attempts at smashing, probably by farmers who mistook them for ordinary large rocks. The nearby Gürcütepe site—also Neolithic—was not excavated until 2000.


Dating:
The imposing stratigraphy of Göbekli Tepe attests to many centuries of activity, beginning at least as early as the epipaleolithic period. Structures identified with the succeeding period, Pre-Pottery Neolithic A (PPNA), have been dated to the 10th millennium BCE. Remains of smaller buildings identified as Pre-Pottery Neolithic B (PPNB) and dating from the 9th millennium BCE have also been unearthed.
A number of radiocarbon dates have been published. They are reproduced below with errors of one standard deviation, calibrated to the BCE:

Lab-Number	Date BP	Cal BCE	Context
Ua-19561	8430 ± 80	7560–7370	enclosure C
Ua-19562	8960 ± 85	8280–7970	enclosure B
Hd-20025	9452 ± 73	9110–8620	Layer III
Hd-20036	9559 ± 53	9130–8800	Layer III

The Hd samples are from charcoal in the lowest levels of the site and would date the active phase of occupation. The Ua samples come from pedogenic carbonate coatings on pillars and only indicate the time after the site was abandoned—the terminus ante quem.

 

[trofimus]

1. Don’t you believe in The Free Will theodicy of Hell like W. L. Crane does?
If you thinks this is bollocks why would you believe anything he says about any other subject?
2. Man I already know about this so called evidence.
I thought there is some evidence that is independent of the bible, that I missed.
Seriously ? This is it?
The evidence that some story in the bible(the resurrection of Jesus)is true is the fact that some characters in the bible said it is true. So the evidence for the bible is the bible.
First you have to prove that people in the bible that said something about Jesus are true historical persons and not just some names in a book or a scroll(some skeletons found with something written next to them that shows their names, and that it corresponds with those in the bible) and to prove that they are really the ones that wrote the new testament gospels. Also you need to prove Jesus was a real historical figure of that time from multiple independent sources. It is said the first century was a well documented period of human history. You would think there would be multiple sources of information on extraordinary people and sensational events.

1. Regarding free will I am more into the concept of Leibniz, you can find more in his book named Theodicy.

You dont seem to understand what the word "proof" means. It does not matter who is saying it, Crane or Luther or Donald Trump.

2. The proof does not stand as "the ressurection is true, because some characters in the bible said its true". So I am not sure what are you talking about.

The rest you can do in your own time, you have the same google I have.

And you seem to have lot of time to look for the evidences against Christianity, so why dont you have will/time to do that also for the opposite position?

 

[alexxcjRO]

trofimus : "2. The proof does not stand as "the ressurection is true, because some characters in the bible said its true". So I am not sure what are you talking about.
The rest you can do in your own time, you have the same google I have. "
And you seem to have lot of time to look for the evidences against Christianity, so why dont you have will/time to do that also for the opposite position?

Man i allready watched videos of Craig and debates related to this subject.
The so called proof:
1. A)The tomb in which Jesus was buried was discovered empty by a group of women on the Sunday following the crucifixion.
B)The testimony of women in 1st century Jewish culture was considered worthless.
Conclusion: The resurrection of Jesus is real. Seriously?
2. Jesus' disciples had real experiences with one whom they believed was the risen Christ.
A)They were not lying because the disciples would not have died die willingly as martyrs for their belief in the resurrection if they knew it was not the truth.
B) They couldn’t all hallucinated at the same drinking and eating with Jesus after him dying on the cross.
Conclusion : The resurrection of Jesus is real. Seriously?
3. As a result of the preaching of these disciples, which had the resurrection at its center, the Christian church was established and grew.
A.)The resurrection of Jesus couldn’t have had pagan influences because early disciples were Jews, and it would have been unthinkable for a Jew to borrow from another religion. For they were zealous in their belief that the pagan religions were abhorrent to God.
B) Jewish influences cannot explain the belief in the resurrection, either. 1st century Judaism had no conception of a single individual rising from the dead in the middle of history. Their concept was always that everybody would be raised together at the end of time. So the idea of one individual rising in the middle of history was foreign to them. Thus, Judaism of that day could have never produced the resurrection hypothesis.
Conclusion : The resurrection of Jesus is real. Seriously?

Response to 1:
Let me make a possible dialogue:
I say: Look, I have an invisible miniature unicorn on the palm of my hand. Do you see it? No? Well, there; that proves it is invisible!
You may say: To be analogous, in your story there would be many witnesses around to testify that there actually used to be a miniature unicorn on your hand.
I then say: I don’t need to produce witnesses. I just need to produce a book claiming there were witnesses. Probably the same book that insists the invisible miniature unicorn is real, and then I call the one passage from the book a “fact” and use it to support the other passage.

Response to 2:
Again, this assumes that everything described in the New Testament are true accounts. We simply have no basis for assuming that, especially when the books of the NT were written long after Jesus resurrected. And neither do we have any evidence either, that the disciples died for their faith and became martyrs. There simply is no confirmation of that. I could take any fictional story to draw conclusions in the same manner as Christians do.

Other things to consider:
-The followers of Jesus were Aramaic speaking peasants from Galilee who were illiterate like most of the people of the ancient world. They couldn’t read and write, they were fishermen, they didn’t went to school.
[SUP]“13 [/SUP]When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.” (Acts 4:13)
-The Gospels were written in Greek, in the third person decades later after Jesus supposedly resurrected by anonymous writers who did not witness Jesus’s resurrection. They were not written by the characters John, Luke, Mathew and Mark from the bible, they are only called the gospel of John, Luke, Mathew and Mark. These stories, “the gospels” are based on oral reports that had been in circulation for decades.

Q: So what can happen to oral reports, year after year, decade after decade?
A: They get changed.

If we analyze the gospels we see discrepancies:
-John says it was witnessed by one woman. Matthew says two women. Mark says three women. Luke says it was at least five.
-Luke, Mark, and John all indicate the tomb was already open when the woman/women got there. Matthew says the tomb was closed, but an angel rolled back the boulder covering it.
-Matthew says an angel was waiting outside the tomb. Mark says a young man was inside. -Luke and John say two men/angels were inside.
-Mark and John say the man/men were sitting, while Luke indicates they were standing.

“Jesus Has Risen 28 After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it.”(Matthew 28:1-2)
“Jesus Has Risen
24 On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. [SUP]2 [/SUP]They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, [SUP]3 [/SUP]but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. [SUP]4 [/SUP]While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them.”(Luke 24:1-4)
“Jesus Has Risen
16 When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb [SUP]3 [/SUP]and they asked each other, “Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?”
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away. [SUP]5 [/SUP]As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed.”(Mark 16:1-5)
“The Empty Tomb
20 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.” (John 20:1-5)

Response to 3:
Dr. Robert M. Price’s says:
“…there are many viable explanations [for the rise of the belief that Jesus resurrected], not least Festinger’s theory of cognitive dissonance reduction, whereby more than one disappointed sect has turned defeat into zeal by means of face-saving denial. “

There are NO historical documents from the era that say that Jesus rose from the dead. Not even one. Even the most knowledgeable Christian apologist or scholar will reluctantly admit this. In addition, even more damaging is the fact that outside of the New Testament, none of the historians of the time during the period Jesus supposedly lived (approximately 0 AD - 33 AD) even mention the existence of a Jesus of Nazareth. It’s not in any of their writings, accounts, or reports. That is a tremendous blow to the Christian religion. Christian apologists though, try to cite historians of a later era such as Josephus or Tacitus. However, those historians lived long after Jesus’ time and were reporting on rumors and stories they heard. Also, some scholars think that the writings of Josephus referring to Jesus are an interpolation for many reasons.

Conclusion: When you look at all these objectively you can’t say that you have historic evidence of Jesus resurrection.

 

[working4christ2]

I thought you are Christian for quite a long time, many years. You do not know any evidences for the ressurection of Christ?
Googling it will be more efective for you than me writing it here.
I think that William L. Crane you have mentioned before has a good videos about this topic on his channel.

Hell and eternity
- you are quoting English, but we would have to look at Greek
- Bible says that the result of sin is death and the mercy brings us the eternal life
- eternal torment in hell would be eternal life, too, not death

So I can imagine both variants to be true.

PROOF That Christ is Resurrected

Have you ever considered HOW Genesis 1:26-27, when compared to John 4: 23-24 is not only possible, but FACT? The answer explains WHY Crist was and Is Resurrected, so that we too WILL BE

Your question is a good one.
Here’s a method I have used with some success.
ASK: Did you choose what you’re wearing today? {Or did you dress yourself this morning?}
If you did I can show evidence of God to you.
The Bible has existed for nearly 2,000 years, and we believe it to be the Inspired WORD of God.
In its 1[SUP]st[/SUP] book:
Genesis, 1: 26 & 27 we are taught that we are made in the image & likeness of God.
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them

Then is the Gospel {Meaning the “GOOD News”} of John 4: 23-24, tells us that {our} God is:
“But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."
That God is a “Spiritual Reality”
Q: So if God is a Spirit and man is made in His Image; how can that be? “Man” is human
[1] In all of the Universes BILLIONS of stars, galaxies and planets, only ONE can be proven to be able to support ALL of the Life-Forms that we are aware of. Planet Earth
[2] On Planet Earth with its hundreds of MILLIONS of different living things; only ONE, only Man can choose to love or hate, only Man, can rationalize.
[3] In order for Man to be able to love, hate & rationalize require in an absolute sense:
A mind {not meaning our brain}
A Intellect {not meaning “I.Q.} &
A Freewill
[4] Each of these attributes, are like God: Spiritual realities & immortal. Meaning that they can’t be killed & don’t die.
[5] If you’re doubtful? Define for me your “FREEWILL” What is its size, weight, color & shape?
It can’t be done but only a foolish person would assert that it does not exist.
[6] Science tells us that like things originate from other “like-things.”
[7] So these “Spiritual Realities” have to have a source, other than our parents, who transmit our physical attributes; but cannot transmit “spiritual {invisible} things”.
[8} further evidence of a Power, a Source greater than man is evidenced in the Natural Laws: Motion, gravity for example. Then there are the Sun & the Moon both which paly essential roles in sustaining Earths life forms. With many BILLIONS of stars and planets the odds that they exist in the forms NECESSARY to sustain life, and then BE in OUR Galaxy is many BILLIUONS to One. {Impossible!} By luck or coincidence.
[8] Then add to this the Moral Laws: Good and evil too have to have a source, an origin. Because this Power, this Source that WE CHOOSE to identify as our God is Good, we can know that Goodness {LOVE} comes from God; while hate exist permitted by God, so man can freely choose good or evil.
[9] Enter into a discussion of WHY man is given these attributes: LIFE After physical death discussion
[TABLE="width: 780"]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][10] St. Thomas Aquinas:
The Existence of God can be proved in five ways.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Argument Analysis of the Five Ways

Aquinas: Five Ways to Prove that God exists -- The Arguments

The above is too large to cut & paste, but can also be used.

God Bless,
PJM
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]St. Thomas Aquinas:
The Existence of God can be proved in five ways.
[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Argument Analysis of the Five Ways © 2016 Theodore Gracyk
[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
The First Way: Argument from Motion

1. Our senses prove that some things are in motion.
2. Things move when potential motion becomes actual motion.
3. Only an actual motion can convert a potential motion into an actual motion.
4. Nothing can be at once in both actuality and potentiality in the same respect (i.e., if both actual and potential, it is actual in one respect and potential in another).
5. Therefore nothing can move itself.
6. Therefore each thing in motion is moved by something else.
7. The sequence of motion cannot extend ad infinitum.
8. Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.

The Second Way: Argument from Efficient Causes

1. We perceive a series of efficient causes of things in the world.
2. Nothing exists prior to itself.
3. Therefore nothing [in the world of things we perceive] is the efficient cause of itself.
4. If a previous efficient cause does not exist, neither does the thing that results (the effect).
5. Therefore if the first thing in a series does not exist, nothing in the series exists.
6. If the series of efficient causes extends ad infinitum into the past, for then there would be no things existing now.
7. That is plainly false (i.e., there are things existing now that came about through efficient causes).
8. Therefore efficient causes do not extend ad infinitum into the past.
9. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.

The Third Way: Argument from Possibility and Necessity (Reductio argument)

1. We find in nature things that are possible to be and not to be, that come into being and go out of being i.e., contingent beings.
2. Assume that every being is a contingent being.
3. For each contingent being, there is a time it does not exist.
4. Therefore it is impossible for these always to exist.
5. Therefore there could have been a time when no things existed.
6. Therefore at that time there would have been nothing to bring the currently existing contingent beings into existence.
7. Therefore, nothing would be in existence now.
8. We have reached an absurd result from assuming that every being is a contingent being.
9. Therefore not every being is a contingent being.
10. Therefore some being exists of its own necessity, and does not receive its existence from another being, but rather causes them. This all men speak of as God.

The Fourth Way: Argument from Gradation of Being

1. There is a gradation to be found in things: some are better or worse than others.
2. Predications of degree require reference to the “uttermost” case (e.g., a thing is said to be hotter according as it more nearly resembles that which is hottest).
3. The maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus.
4. Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God.

The Fifth Way: Argument from Design

1. We see that natural bodies work toward some goal, and do not do so by chance.
2. Most natural things lack knowledge.
3. But as an arrow reaches its target because it is directed by an archer, what lacks intelligence achieves goals by being directed by something intelligence.
4. Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end; and this being we call God.

[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[trofimus]

trofimus : "2. The proof does not stand as "the ressurection is true, because some characters in the bible said its true". So I am not sure what are you talking about.
The rest you can do in your own time, you have the same google I have. "
And you seem to have lot of time to look for the evidences against Christianity, so why dont you have will/time to do that also for the opposite position?

Man i allready watched videos of Craig and debates related to this subject.
The so called proof:
1. A)The tomb in which Jesus was buried was discovered empty by a group of women on the Sunday following the crucifixion.
B)The testimony of women in 1st century Jewish culture was considered worthless.
Conclusion: The resurrection of Jesus is real. Seriously?
2. Jesus' disciples had real experiences with one whom they believed was the risen Christ.
A)They were not lying because the disciples would not have died die willingly as martyrs for their belief in the resurrection if they knew it was not the truth.
B) They couldn’t all hallucinated at the same drinking and eating with Jesus after him dying on the cross.
Conclusion : The resurrection of Jesus is real. Seriously?
3. As a result of the preaching of these disciples, which had the resurrection at its center, the Christian church was established and grew.
A.)The resurrection of Jesus couldn’t have had pagan influences because early disciples were Jews, and it would have been unthinkable for a Jew to borrow from another religion. For they were zealous in their belief that the pagan religions were abhorrent to God.
B) Jewish influences cannot explain the belief in the resurrection, either. 1st century Judaism had no conception of a single individual rising from the dead in the middle of history. Their concept was always that everybody would be raised together at the end of time. So the idea of one individual rising in the middle of history was foreign to them. Thus, Judaism of that day could have never produced the resurrection hypothesis.
Conclusion : The resurrection of Jesus is real. Seriously?

Response to 1:
Let me make a possible dialogue:
I say: Look, I have an invisible miniature unicorn on the palm of my hand. Do you see it? No? Well, there; that proves it is invisible!
You may say: To be analogous, in your story there would be many witnesses around to testify that there actually used to be a miniature unicorn on your hand.
I then say: I don’t need to produce witnesses. I just need to produce a book claiming there were witnesses. Probably the same book that insists the invisible miniature unicorn is real, and then I call the one passage from the book a “fact” and use it to support the other passage.

Response to 2:
Again, this assumes that everything described in the New Testament are true accounts. We simply have no basis for assuming that, especially when the books of the NT were written long after Jesus resurrected. And neither do we have any evidence either, that the disciples died for their faith and became martyrs. There simply is no confirmation of that. I could take any fictional story to draw conclusions in the same manner as Christians do.

Other things to consider:
-The followers of Jesus were Aramaic speaking peasants from Galilee who were illiterate like most of the people of the ancient world. They couldn’t read and write, they were fishermen, they didn’t went to school.
[SUP]“13 [/SUP]When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.” (Acts 4:13)
-The Gospels were written in Greek, in the third person decades later after Jesus supposedly resurrected by anonymous writers who did not witness Jesus’s resurrection. They were not written by the characters John, Luke, Mathew and Mark from the bible, they are only called the gospel of John, Luke, Mathew and Mark. These stories, “the gospels” are based on oral reports that had been in circulation for decades.

Q: So what can happen to oral reports, year after year, decade after decade?
A: They get changed.

If we analyze the gospels we see discrepancies:
-John says it was witnessed by one woman. Matthew says two women. Mark says three women. Luke says it was at least five.
-Luke, Mark, and John all indicate the tomb was already open when the woman/women got there. Matthew says the tomb was closed, but an angel rolled back the boulder covering it.
-Matthew says an angel was waiting outside the tomb. Mark says a young man was inside. -Luke and John say two men/angels were inside.
-Mark and John say the man/men were sitting, while Luke indicates they were standing.

“Jesus Has Risen 28 After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it.”(Matthew 28:1-2)
“Jesus Has Risen
24 On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. [SUP]2 [/SUP]They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, [SUP]3 [/SUP]but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. [SUP]4 [/SUP]While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them.”(Luke 24:1-4)
“Jesus Has Risen
16 When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb [SUP]3 [/SUP]and they asked each other, “Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?”
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away. [SUP]5 [/SUP]As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed.”(Mark 16:1-5)
“The Empty Tomb
20 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.” (John 20:1-5)

Response to 3:
Dr. Robert M. Price’s says:
“…there are many viable explanations [for the rise of the belief that Jesus resurrected], not least Festinger’s theory of cognitive dissonance reduction, whereby more than one disappointed sect has turned defeat into zeal by means of face-saving denial. “

There are NO historical documents from the era that say that Jesus rose from the dead. Not even one. Even the most knowledgeable Christian apologist or scholar will reluctantly admit this. In addition, even more damaging is the fact that outside of the New Testament, none of the historians of the time during the period Jesus supposedly lived (approximately 0 AD - 33 AD) even mention the existence of a Jesus of Nazareth. It’s not in any of their writings, accounts, or reports. That is a tremendous blow to the Christian religion. Christian apologists though, try to cite historians of a later era such as Josephus or Tacitus. However, those historians lived long after Jesus’ time and were reporting on rumors and stories they heard. Also, some scholars think that the writings of Josephus referring to Jesus are an interpolation for many reasons.

Conclusion: When you look at all these objectively you can’t say that you have historic evidence of Jesus resurrection.

1.
You dont realize that we are talking about historical event, if it happened or not.

It seems to me that you expect some physical experiment or some similar kind of proof. Which is nonsense. You must expect the same proofs like for proving anything else from the first century.

And testing internal and external consistency of records and judging the purposes of actions involved people did is the only way.

So yes, seriously, this is the way.

2.
invisible miniature unicorn

- You have made a straw man (so simplified example that it is wrong) instead of the real antiargument.

Its not about producing a book (but you can try it and we will see if it will have the same internal consistency as the NT). The book is about existing people, who were living, talking, acting and died witnessing about this events.

3.
NT is written when apostles were still around, so any really big error would be corrected. Yes, we can have debates in a style "two donkeys or one donkey when Christ returned to Jerusalem", but thats, in fact, the proof of the witness.

Lying witness would made everything look the same.

4.

“…there are many viable explanations [for the rise of the belief that Jesus resurrected], not least Festinger’s theory of cognitive dissonance reduction, whereby more than one disappointed sect has turned defeat into zeal by means of face-saving denial. “

Give some.

5.
"There are NO historical documents from the era that say that Jesus rose from the dead."

Nonsense. There are dozens. NT alone is 27 books and there are many extra biblical records.

 

[alexxcjRO]

“-You dont realize that we are talking about historical event, if it happened or not.
It seems to me that you expect some physical experiment or some similar kind of proof. Which is nonsense. You must expect the same proofs like for proving anything else from the first century.
- You have made a straw man (so simplified example that it is wrong) instead of the real antiargument.
-NT is written when apostles were still around, so any really big error would be corrected. Yes, we can have debates in a style "two donkeys or one donkey when Christ returned to Jerusalem", but thats, in fact, the proof of the witness.
-"There are NO historical documents from the era that say that Jesus rose from the dead."
Nonsense. There are dozens. NT alone is 27 books and there are many extra biblical records.”

Let’s see what historians do:
Historians try to establish to the best of their ability what probably happened in the past.
What kinds of evidence do scholars look for when trying to establish probabilities in the past?
Well, the best kind of evidence, of course, consists of contemporary accounts; people who were close to the time of the events themselves, a reliable source that goes back to the time period itself.
There are only two sources of information for past events:
1. Stories that actually happened based on, ultimately, eyewitness accounts.
2 Stories that have been made up.

To determine which things are the things that happened,
1. You want contemporary accounts, that are close to the time of the events themselves.
2. You want these accounts to be independent of one another , that are not collaborated, you want accounts that corroborate one another; accounts that are consistent in what they have to say about the subject.
3. You want sources that are not biased toward the subject matter. You want accounts that are disinterested. You want lots of them, you want them independent from one another, yet you want them to be consistent with one another.


You have the same problems for all of the sources and all of our Gospels.
These are not historically reliable accounts. The authors were not eye witnesses; they’re Greek-speaking Christians living 35 to 65 years after the events they narrate. The accounts that they narrate are based on oral traditions that have been in circulation for decades. Year after year Christians trying to convert others told them stories to convince them(biased toward the subject matter and not disinterested) that Jesus was raised from the dead. These writers are telling stories, then, that Christians have been telling all these years. Many stories were invented, and most of the stories were changed. For that reason, these accounts are not as useful as we would like them to be for historical purposes. They’re not contemporary, they’re not disinterested, and they’re not consistent.

Q: Do we have multiple independent reliable sources that are not collaborated, consistent in what they have to say about the subject, that are not biased towards the subject, that are disinterested?
A: No we don’t, we just have some Greek-speaking Christians that are not witness to the events, listening to some stories that were transmitted orally for decades and changed by Christians (human memory is a fickle thing).
Q: Could some zealous jews that saw that their Messiah Jesus died on the cross like some weak mere mortal, because of cognitive dissonance said to themselves: Jesus can’t be dead , and they start telling stories about Jesus being resurrected?(The third-day belief could be a byproduct of this engagement with Jewish scriptures, with some likely scriptural candidates being Hosea 6:2, a Jewish sacred third-day tradition, and Psalms 16:10)
A: They could have.
(Traditions expressed in 1 Corinthians 15:3-7, widely recognized amongst scholars on both sides of the aisle to represent the earliest known Christian beliefs and traditions, in existence well before any of the gospels were written:

“For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.”)

Q: Who is most likely to visit a young man’s grave soon after his death?
A: The person who loved most in the world, his mother.

Q: Is there any historical proof that of Luke, Mark, John, Matthew being killed for their belief, except the New Testament historical documents?
A: No, there is not.

Q: Can historians prove historically that God(Yahweh) raise Jesus from the dead?
A: No they can, they don’t have access to God(Yahweh). They would have at least need to believe that Yahweh exist to make that claim. But the historian may be a buddhist, agnostic , atheist, etc.

Q: Can the resurrection of Jesus be, therefore a historical claim?
A: No it can’t be, but it can be a theological or logical claim.

Q: Can we say that the historical proof of something written in the New Testament is the historical documents of the New Testament?
A: It is absurd, it like I say that the story of Ghilgameș that tries to become immortal with help of his grandfather Uta-napiștim is a prove historically as a true event by the historical Old Babylonian and Akkadian tablets.

Q: Can the story of the twelve appostols and the Jesus’s resurrection be a combo of real events and elements of legend , symbols?
A: Yes.
Q: If you admit Noah’s global flood and the story of Adam and Eve(the Eden garden, the talking snake, making them from dirt) not to be a true event, a symbol, some kind of metaphor, why can’t you make the leap and admit that Jesus resurrection can be the same, not a true event but a symbol, a metaphor?

 

[RobbyEarl]

Because Satan has always tried to make God's word false, read the snake story again.

 

[trofimus]

“-You dont realize that we are talking about historical event, if it happened or not.
It seems to me that you expect some physical experiment or some similar kind of proof. Which is nonsense. You must expect the same proofs like for proving anything else from the first century.
- You have made a straw man (so simplified example that it is wrong) instead of the real antiargument.
-NT is written when apostles were still around, so any really big error would be corrected. Yes, we can have debates in a style "two donkeys or one donkey when Christ returned to Jerusalem", but thats, in fact, the proof of the witness.
-"There are NO historical documents from the era that say that Jesus rose from the dead."
Nonsense. There are dozens. NT alone is 27 books and there are many extra biblical records.”

Let’s see what historians do:
Historians try to establish to the best of their ability what probably happened in the past.
What kinds of evidence do scholars look for when trying to establish probabilities in the past?
Well, the best kind of evidence, of course, consists of contemporary accounts; people who were close to the time of the events themselves, a reliable source that goes back to the time period itself.
There are only two sources of information for past events:
1. Stories that actually happened based on, ultimately, eyewitness accounts.
2 Stories that have been made up.

To determine which things are the things that happened,
1. You want contemporary accounts, that are close to the time of the events themselves.
2. You want these accounts to be independent of one another , that are not collaborated, you want accounts that corroborate one another; accounts that are consistent in what they have to say about the subject.
3. You want sources that are not biased toward the subject matter. You want accounts that are disinterested. You want lots of them, you want them independent from one another, yet you want them to be consistent with one another.


You have the same problems for all of the sources and all of our Gospels.
These are not historically reliable accounts. The authors were not eye witnesses; they’re Greek-speaking Christians living 35 to 65 years after the events they narrate. The accounts that they narrate are based on oral traditions that have been in circulation for decades. Year after year Christians trying to convert others told them stories to convince them(biased toward the subject matter and not disinterested) that Jesus was raised from the dead. These writers are telling stories, then, that Christians have been telling all these years. Many stories were invented, and most of the stories were changed. For that reason, these accounts are not as useful as we would like them to be for historical purposes. They’re not contemporary, they’re not disinterested, and they’re not consistent.

Q: Do we have multiple independent reliable sources that are not collaborated, consistent in what they have to say about the subject, that are not biased towards the subject, that are disinterested?
A: No we don’t, we just have some Greek-speaking Christians that are not witness to the events, listening to some stories that were transmitted orally for decades and changed by Christians (human memory is a fickle thing).
Q: Could some zealous jews that saw that their Messiah Jesus died on the cross like some weak mere mortal, because of cognitive dissonance said to themselves: Jesus can’t be dead , and they start telling stories about Jesus being resurrected?(The third-day belief could be a byproduct of this engagement with Jewish scriptures, with some likely scriptural candidates being Hosea 6:2, a Jewish sacred third-day tradition, and Psalms 16:10)
A: They could have.
(Traditions expressed in 1 Corinthians 15:3-7, widely recognized amongst scholars on both sides of the aisle to represent the earliest known Christian beliefs and traditions, in existence well before any of the gospels were written:

“For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.”)

Q: Who is most likely to visit a young man’s grave soon after his death?
A: The person who loved most in the world, his mother.

Q: Is there any historical proof that of Luke, Mark, John, Matthew being killed for their belief, except the New Testament historical documents?
A: No, there is not.

Q: Can historians prove historically that God(Yahweh) raise Jesus from the dead?
A: No they can, they don’t have access to God(Yahweh). They would have at least need to believe that Yahweh exist to make that claim. But the historian may be a buddhist, agnostic , atheist, etc.

Q: Can the resurrection of Jesus be, therefore a historical claim?
A: No it can’t be, but it can be a theological or logical claim.

Q: Can we say that the historical proof of something written in the New Testament is the historical documents of the New Testament?
A: It is absurd, it like I say that the story of Ghilgameș that tries to become immortal with help of his grandfather Uta-napiștim is a prove historically as a true event by the historical Old Babylonian and Akkadian tablets.

Q: Can the story of the twelve appostols and the Jesus’s resurrection be a combo of real events and elements of legend , symbols?
A: Yes.
Q: If you admit Noah’s global flood and the story of Adam and Eve(the Eden garden, the talking snake, making them from dirt) not to be a true event, a symbol, some kind of metaphor, why can’t you make the leap and admit that Jesus resurrection can be the same, not a true event but a symbol, a metaphor?

Q: Did Christ rise from the dead?
A: Yes.

Q: Is it a historical fact?
A: Yes, it is.


Do you really think that such posts have any weight?

And, please, if you want a conversation, make it much shorter.

 

[alexxcjRO]

trofimus :"Q: Did Christ rise from the dead?
A: Yes.

Q: Is it a historical fact?
A: Yes, it is."

I am not saying that the resurrection of Jesus is not true, logically and theologically it can be true.
But it is not an historical proven fact.
You can say that 1000 times more. That doesn't make it true.


trofimus :"Do you really think that such posts have any weight?
And, please, if you want a conversation, make it much shorter."

You don't need to respond to my post if your find them too long . I can't force you too. But also you can't tell me how long my posts should be. I am trying to prove a point with what i know so to be well understood. You saw that my posts were long . So if you don't like long posts why did u come to my thread?

 

[trofimus]

trofimus :"Q: Did Christ rise from the dead?
A: Yes.

Q: Is it a historical fact?
A: Yes, it is."

I am not saying that the resurrection of Jesus is not true, logically and theologically it can be true.
But it is not an historical proven fact.
You can say that 1000 times more. That doesn't make it true.


trofimus :"Do you really think that such posts have any weight?
And, please, if you want a conversation, make it much shorter."

You don't need to respond to my post if your find them too long . I can't force you too. But also you can't tell me how long my posts should be. I am trying to prove a point with what i know so to be well understood. You saw that my posts were long . So if you don't like long posts why did u come to my thread?

I was not repeating it to "make it true" but to show you that this has no weight.

Yes, ressurrection is historical fact, proved by normal historical methods. Nothing less, nothing more. Yes, there is no proof similar to proof of gravity or something that can be repeated and demonstrated again. It belongs to other sciences, not to history.

I do not force you to make shorter posts, I said that if you want to have a conversation, you must make them short.

You gave a questions so I came to respond. But if you want to continue it with reactions and reactions on reactions, it must be shorter. And more people will be able to join.