The Church in Acts did not meet on the first day of the week...
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And what is the history behind it? It is not Constantine's edict of Milan if that's what you're going to say.
The Bible has a lot of transciption error. The adding of the "day" would the most insignificant. The entire story of the prostitute who's about the get stoned is an ulterior adding to the scripture. So? What do we do with all these things?
We can not understand Scripture unless we are a little bit aware of the history surrounding the first century in Palestine. And thank's God, we have some documents from the first century in Palestine.
I still would like to hear what is your opinion about The Didache, the Epistle of Barnaba, about the Letter of Saint Ignatius of Antioch to the Magnesians etc. These are the historical proof of Christians gathering on Sunday for worship. I prefer that instead of opinions we give facts.
The Bible has a lot of transciption error. The adding of the "day" would the most insignificant. The entire story of the prostitute who's about the get stoned is an ulterior adding to the scripture. So? What do we do with all these things?
We can not understand Scripture unless we are a little bit aware of the history surrounding the first century in Palestine. And thank's God, we have some documents from the first century in Palestine.
I still would like to hear what is your opinion about The Didache, the Epistle of Barnaba, about the Letter of Saint Ignatius of Antioch to the Magnesians etc. These are the historical proof of Christians gathering on Sunday for worship. I prefer that instead of opinions we give facts.
we could argue about writings of "church fathers" all week. I can provide links to translated documents that say the 1st century church met on the 7th day Sabbath. At the end of the day, where are we going to put our confidence? In Scripture I hope.
You can't understand Scripture unless you include the front of the Book.
adding the word "day" in a few places is a huge, very huge error, when people make doctrine out of it.
You can't understand Scripture unless you include the front of the Book.
adding the word "day" in a few places is a huge, very huge error, when people make doctrine out of it.
Which writings of the church fathers? Let's do it please. I want to talk history and not opinions.
We put our confidence in Scripture but aren't we curious about all the early documents that exist and that talk about christianity? I know I am. Aren't you? I don't doubt that christians met on Saturday too. You doubt that Christians met on Sunday and there are documents who prove you wrong. What do you think about that? About those documents?
Friend, people didn't make doctrine out of that. Christians met on Sunday. It is a well-known fact. Could you provide documents that prove the contrary? If yes, please do it! But they better be early historical documents and not the opinions of some ignorant american.
We put our confidence in Scripture but aren't we curious about all the early documents that exist and that talk about christianity? I know I am. Aren't you? I don't doubt that christians met on Saturday too. You doubt that Christians met on Sunday and there are documents who prove you wrong. What do you think about that? About those documents?
Friend, people didn't make doctrine out of that. Christians met on Sunday. It is a well-known fact. Could you provide documents that prove the contrary? If yes, please do it! But they better be early historical documents and not the opinions of some ignorant american.
And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught. Mark 1:21 (KJV)
And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing [him] were astonished, saying, From whence hath this [man] these things? and what wisdom [is] this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands? Mark 6:2 (KJV)
But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down. Acts 13:14 (KJV)
For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled [them] in condemning [him]. Acts 13:27 (KJV)
And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. Acts 13:42 (KJV)
And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. Acts 13:44 (KJV)
For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. Acts 15:21 (KJV)
And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted [thither]. Acts 16:13 (KJV)
And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Acts 17:2 (KJV)
And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. Acts 18:4 (KJV)
(These are not Americans)
T
All the verses quoted in Acts are examples of where evangelisation was taking place.
One goes where the people are that one wishes to evangelise.
Even the Gentiles referred to in a couple of those verses were 'God-fearers' who attended synagogue in the manner of Jews.
These verses only prove the point that in order to easily convert Jews and God-fearers to Christianity go to the synagogues on the Sabbath!
One goes where the people are that one wishes to evangelise.
Even the Gentiles referred to in a couple of those verses were 'God-fearers' who attended synagogue in the manner of Jews.
These verses only prove the point that in order to easily convert Jews and God-fearers to Christianity go to the synagogues on the Sabbath!
When you want to preach a gospel, you will go where people are.
In the days of apostles it was the most effective to go to a synagogue on the sabbath day. In another cities they went to aeropag or to a market.
Remember, that these passages are not about the church assembly, but about where apostles went to preach.
In the days of apostles it was the most effective to go to a synagogue on the sabbath day. In another cities they went to aeropag or to a market.
Remember, that these passages are not about the church assembly, but about where apostles went to preach.
yes, all that is about the assembly of the Jews. not of the Church. the apostles and evangelists were going to speak & reason with non-believers in all these instances, not meeting amongst themselves.
these do not constitute any kind of proof. i would also like to see the evidence from the church fathers that you say you can provide - because it is well known that there is much evidence from these early believers & writings of their elders, that the custom was to meet on the first day of the week . . ?
these do not constitute any kind of proof. i would also like to see the evidence from the church fathers that you say you can provide - because it is well known that there is much evidence from these early believers & writings of their elders, that the custom was to meet on the first day of the week . . ?
“Question - Which is the Sabbath day?
“Answer - Saturday is the Sabbath day.
“Question - Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
“Answer - We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50, 3rd edition, 1957
“Answer - Saturday is the Sabbath day.
“Question - Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
“Answer - We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50, 3rd edition, 1957
I said I can provide evidences from the church fathers?
But ok, because in another forum thread you were right about my flag (and did not fail to say its a flag of Philippines, which looks similar), I will do it for you
But ok, because in another forum thread you were right about my flag (and did not fail to say its a flag of Philippines, which looks similar), I will do it for you
sorry; i quoted you because i agreed very well with what you said, and also what Tony & GuessWho said, but yours was the last comment. but i meant to address mike with what i had written there.
oh and i love the Czech - i've had some friends in my youth who immigrated from there, who i played soccer with for many years in our club team. my center-field striker who i fed the ball to so many times, playing defense myself. some of my ancestry is Slavic, too, from the Dalmatian Coast. so i know the Czech flag when i see it
thank you for the kind words.
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no not you, lol -- mike did:
sorry; i quoted you because i agreed very well with what you said, and also what Tony & GuessWho said, but yours was the last comment. but i meant to address mike with what i had written there.
oh and i love the Czech - i've had some friends in my youth who immigrated from there, who i played soccer with for many years in our club team. my center-field striker who i fed the ball to so many times, playing defense myself. some of my ancestry is Slavic, too, from the Dalmatian Coast. so i know the Czech flag when i see it
thank you for the kind words.
sorry; i quoted you because i agreed very well with what you said, and also what Tony & GuessWho said, but yours was the last comment. but i meant to address mike with what i had written there.
oh and i love the Czech - i've had some friends in my youth who immigrated from there, who i played soccer with for many years in our club team. my center-field striker who i fed the ball to so many times, playing defense myself. some of my ancestry is Slavic, too, from the Dalmatian Coast. so i know the Czech flag when i see it
thank you for the kind words.
Many people with a Czech surname there.Apostolic fathers about the Sabbath/Sunday. I think its better than the Church fathers.
Barnabas 15:8
- written between 80-120 AD
The Epistle of Barnabas (translation Roberts-Donaldson)
8 Furthermore he says to them, "Your new moons and the sabbaths I cannot away with." Do you see what he means? The present sabbaths are not acceptable tome, but that which I have made, in which I will give rest to all things and make the beginning of an eighth day, that is the beginning of another world.
9 Wherefore we also celebrate with gladness the eighth day in which Jesus also rose from the dead, and was made manifest, and ascended into Heaven.
---
Diognetus 4:1
- written between 130-200 AD
Diognetus. The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus (translation Roberts-Donaldson).
But as to their scrupulosity concerning meats, and their superstition as respects the Sabbaths, and their boasting about circumcision, and their fancies about fasting and the new moons, which are utterly ridiculous and unworthy of notice...
And as to their observing months and days, as if waiting upon the stars and the moon, and their distributing, according to their own tendencies, the appointments of God, and the vicissitudes of the seasons, some for festivities, and others for mourning,--who would deem this a part of divine worship, and not much rather a manifestation of folly? I suppose, then, you are sufficiently convinced that the Christians properly abstain from the vanity and common error and from the busy-body spirit and vain boasting of the Jews.
---
Ignatios to Magnesians 9:1
- written between 105-115 AD
St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Magnesians (Roberts-Donaldson translation)
If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death...
Barnabas 15:8
- written between 80-120 AD
The Epistle of Barnabas (translation Roberts-Donaldson)
8 Furthermore he says to them, "Your new moons and the sabbaths I cannot away with." Do you see what he means? The present sabbaths are not acceptable tome, but that which I have made, in which I will give rest to all things and make the beginning of an eighth day, that is the beginning of another world.
9 Wherefore we also celebrate with gladness the eighth day in which Jesus also rose from the dead, and was made manifest, and ascended into Heaven.
---
Diognetus 4:1
- written between 130-200 AD
Diognetus. The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus (translation Roberts-Donaldson).
But as to their scrupulosity concerning meats, and their superstition as respects the Sabbaths, and their boasting about circumcision, and their fancies about fasting and the new moons, which are utterly ridiculous and unworthy of notice...
And as to their observing months and days, as if waiting upon the stars and the moon, and their distributing, according to their own tendencies, the appointments of God, and the vicissitudes of the seasons, some for festivities, and others for mourning,--who would deem this a part of divine worship, and not much rather a manifestation of folly? I suppose, then, you are sufficiently convinced that the Christians properly abstain from the vanity and common error and from the busy-body spirit and vain boasting of the Jews.
---
Ignatios to Magnesians 9:1
- written between 105-115 AD
St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Magnesians (Roberts-Donaldson translation)
If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death...
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May 22, 1934
Pop Pius XI
Rome, Italy
Dear Sir;
Is the accusation true, that Protestants accuse you of? They say you
changed the Seventh Day Sabbath to the, so-called, Christian Sunday:
Identical with the First Day of the week. If so, when did you make the
change, and by what authority?
Yours very truly,
J. L. Day
The Reply:
THE CATHOLIC EXTENSION MAGAZINE
180 Wabash Ave., Chicago, Illinois
(Under the Blessing of Pop Pius XI)
Dear sir:
Regarding the change from the observance of the Jewish Sabbath to the
Christian Sunday, I wish to draw your attention to the facts:
> (1) That Protestants, who accept the Bible as the only rule of faith
> and religion, should by all means go back to the observance of the Sabbath.
The fact that they do not, but on the contrary observe the Sunday, stultifies
them in the eyes of every thinking man.
(2) We Catholics do not accept the Bible as the only rule of faith.
Besides the Bible we have the living Church, the authority of the Church,
as a rule to guide us. We say, this Church instituted by Christ, to teach
and guide men through life, has the right to change the Ceremonial laws of
the Old Testament and hence, we accept her change of the Sabbath to the Sunday.
We frankly say, "yes, the Church made this change, made this law, as she
made many other laws, for instance, the Friday Abstinence, the unmarried
priesthood, the laws concerning mixed marriages, the regulation of Catholic
marriages, and a thousand other laws."
Pop Pius XI
Rome, Italy
Dear Sir;
Is the accusation true, that Protestants accuse you of? They say you
changed the Seventh Day Sabbath to the, so-called, Christian Sunday:
Identical with the First Day of the week. If so, when did you make the
change, and by what authority?
Yours very truly,
J. L. Day
The Reply:
THE CATHOLIC EXTENSION MAGAZINE
180 Wabash Ave., Chicago, Illinois
(Under the Blessing of Pop Pius XI)
Dear sir:
Regarding the change from the observance of the Jewish Sabbath to the
Christian Sunday, I wish to draw your attention to the facts:
> (1) That Protestants, who accept the Bible as the only rule of faith
> and religion, should by all means go back to the observance of the Sabbath.
The fact that they do not, but on the contrary observe the Sunday, stultifies
them in the eyes of every thinking man.
(2) We Catholics do not accept the Bible as the only rule of faith.
Besides the Bible we have the living Church, the authority of the Church,
as a rule to guide us. We say, this Church instituted by Christ, to teach
and guide men through life, has the right to change the Ceremonial laws of
the Old Testament and hence, we accept her change of the Sabbath to the Sunday.
We frankly say, "yes, the Church made this change, made this law, as she
made many other laws, for instance, the Friday Abstinence, the unmarried
priesthood, the laws concerning mixed marriages, the regulation of Catholic
marriages, and a thousand other laws."
at least, the mindset of one particular Catholic magazine editor in 1934.
not exactly the 'church fathers' quotes i was hoping to see . . .
and as you say, not constituting any kind of "proof"
i've always found it quite pertinent that what goes on during typical sunday-morning gatherings among the majority of Christian congregations in no way constitutes 'sabbath observance' -- i think the whole 'sabbath replacement conspiracy' is rooted in a false narrative about exactly what congregational meetings constitute.
not exactly the 'church fathers' quotes i was hoping to see . . .
and as you say, not constituting any kind of "proof"
i've always found it quite pertinent that what goes on during typical sunday-morning gatherings among the majority of Christian congregations in no way constitutes 'sabbath observance' -- i think the whole 'sabbath replacement conspiracy' is rooted in a false narrative about exactly what congregational meetings constitute.
now mike,
a mormon could make exactly the same statement.
but as we all know, his or her interpretation of what the scripture says and even what the very words used mean is far removed from what we know is the truth.
so that really isn't an answer that will suffice to satisfy Tony's question; don't you see that?
a mormon could make exactly the same statement.
but as we all know, his or her interpretation of what the scripture says and even what the very words used mean is far removed from what we know is the truth.
so that really isn't an answer that will suffice to satisfy Tony's question; don't you see that?
T
That is not an answer, it is a diversion.
Let us clearly see what you believe ABOUT Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21.
You have been arguing and disputing doctrine since your arrival on this forum.
So, post your doctrines clearly for all to see - that way there will be no misunderstanding.
It cannot be any clearer that that!
Let us clearly see what you believe ABOUT Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21.
You have been arguing and disputing doctrine since your arrival on this forum.
So, post your doctrines clearly for all to see - that way there will be no misunderstanding.
It cannot be any clearer that that!