Metanoia/Repentance

[Cee]

What I am seeing is a difference in repentance comes from 2 lenses...

1. Says repentance needs to be a serious act, because it's a serious trespass, and the reason is that the more serious the repentance the greater the change and thus obedience and fruit for Christ. It looks at what He did and desires people to understand the evilness of sin. So they will walk in holiness. At its core it says people have hard hearts until they truly repent and then in repentance God restores them and their heart becomes more like Him.

2. The other says repentance is aligning with what God says is simply a change of mind because it looks to the power of the cross, and sees we are new creations in Christ, that He changed our hearts, and as we discover where we need to change our mind, we agree with Him. And by agreeing with Him continually we turn from sin and reveal fruit. The core idea being we live from what Christ did as children of God so repentance doesn't change us, iit's actually the realization God is good and we want to follow His ways.

Both views have their reasonings:

1. Focuses on this because they believe the other gives people permission for false repentance, they simply change their mind, but no heart transformation takes place and thus no fruit.

2. The other focuses on this because they believe the other puts people into a place of trying to change themselves, instead of believing He did from the cross, they believe heart repentance doesn't come from tears and sorrow, but by understanding the goodness of God which leads past having to repent for sin and into being loving, kind, good, which fulfill sins demand and loves, which they believe view 1 doesn't adequately do. It helps people not sin, but the empowerment of God is when we agree with Him what it looks like to be in Christ, thus a change of mind.

Anyone disagree? If so what is your view in contrast with the other view, and why do you believe yours is correct and the other dangerous.

 

[Cee]

My thinking is, if Christ saved my spirit, I can keep looking to Him to renew my mind, my will, my emotions, my relationships, and my life.

How did He save my spirit? It started with believing and confessing/agreeing with Him.

So if that's how it started why would it finish any other way? That's how I see it.

 

[Grace777x70]

What I am seeing is a difference in repentance comes from 2 lenses...

1. Says repentance needs to be a serious act, because it's a serious trespass, and the reason is that the more serious the repentance the greater the change and thus obedience and fruit for Christ. It looks at what He did and desires people to understand the evilness of sin. So they will walk in holiness. At its core it says people have hard hearts until they truly repent and then in repentance God restores them and their heart becomes more like Him.

2. The other says repentance is aligning with what God says is simply a change of mind because it looks to the power of the cross, and sees we are new creations in Christ, that He changed our hearts, and as we discover where we need to change our mind, we agree with Him. And by agreeing with Him continually we turn from sin and reveal fruit. The core idea being we live from what Christ did as children of God so repentance doesn't change us, iit's actually the realization God is good and we want to follow His ways.

Both views have their reasonings:

1. Focuses on this because they believe the other gives people permission for false repentance, they simply change their mind, but no heart transformation takes place and thus no fruit.

2. The other focuses on this because they believe the other puts people into a place of trying to change themselves, instead of believing He did from the cross, they believe heart repentance doesn't come from tears and sorrow, but by understanding the goodness of God which leads past having to repent for sin and into being loving, kind, good, which fulfill sins demand and loves, which they believe view 1 doesn't adequately do. It helps people not sin, but the empowerment of God is when we agree with Him what it looks like to be in Christ, thus a change of mind.

Anyone disagree? If so what is your view in contrast with the other view, and why do you believe yours is correct and the other dangerous.

I agree with most of your assessment. I would just add that the part in blue above - I look at differently.

I believe true repentance will produce as it's fruit - true turning from any sin as far as sinning goes in the equation. Repentance is far more then stopping sin - it's aligning ourselves with a transformed mind to believe all that the Holy Spirit reveals to us about our Lord and Father.

Like I said I believe in "hyper-repenting"..always will. ( and yes that means how I view all types of sinning ) I love it!

Outbursts of anger, malice and slander are just as much a work of the flesh just like adultery, stealing and murder.

I have posted 2x times in this thread about the "fruits of repentance" and yes it includes all types of sin. And I have a hatred for sinning as it distorts my view of God, myself, others and is a bad witness for the Lord.

I have also said that everyone is free to agree to disagree too. We all agree as to what the Christian life looks like - we may deviate on how that is done. I am not going to call someone a heretic because they believe differently in this matter.

 

[Willie-T]

What I am seeing is a difference in repentance comes from 2 lenses...

1. Says repentance needs to be a serious act, because it's a serious trespass, and the reason is that the more serious the repentance the greater the change and thus obedience and fruit for Christ. It looks at what He did and desires people to understand the evilness of sin. So they will walk in holiness. At its core it says people have hard hearts until they truly repent and then in repentance God restores them and their heart becomes more like Him.

2. The other says repentance is aligning with what God says is simply a change of mind because it looks to the power of the cross, and sees we are new creations in Christ, that He changed our hearts, and as we discover where we need to change our mind, we agree with Him. And by agreeing with Him continually we turn from sin and reveal fruit. The core idea being we live from what Christ did as children of God so repentance doesn't change us, iit's actually the realization God is good and we want to follow His ways.

Both views have their reasonings:

1. Focuses on this because they believe the other gives people permission for false repentance, they simply change their mind, but no heart transformation takes place and thus no fruit.

2. The other focuses on this because they believe the other puts people into a place of trying to change themselves, instead of believing He did from the cross, they believe heart repentance doesn't come from tears and sorrow, but by understanding the goodness of God which leads past having to repent for sin and into being loving, kind, good, which fulfill sins demand and loves, which they believe view 1 doesn't adequately do. It helps people not sin, but the empowerment of God is when we agree with Him what it looks like to be in Christ, thus a change of mind.

Anyone disagree? If so what is your view in contrast with the other view, and why do you believe yours is correct and the other dangerous.

I agree with both ways you seem to see it.

All I found issue with is that you twice used the word "simply" when you spoke of changing your mind, as though this was nothing more than a decision whether to have pizza or mac & cheese for dinner. This couldn't be farther from the truth.

For me, it was a gigantic change of my mind from the view I grew up with, that I held the key to Salvation in my belief and actions that proved (or at least, demonstrated) that I was worthy of God's attention because my efforts in showing Him I was a candidate... to realizing I had to either FULLY trust Him, or only PARTIALLY trust Him.

Again, this is only my view, but I have found the way I used to live.... being "certain" because I knew I was up-to-date on my rule-keeping... a MUCH easier life to live than it suddenly became when I first "changed my mind" from that idea, to the kind of scary thought of ONLY trusting that it is what Jesus did that counts for anything. For a long time, I kept wanting to "hedge my bet" by showing God I was still dutifully making myself Holy by doing the accepted things.

 

[UnderGrace]

Just to clarify are you writing about a believer repenting or an unbeliever coming to the knowledge of Jesus or both?

What I am seeing is a difference in repentance comes from 2 lenses...

1. Says repentance needs to be a serious act, because it's a serious trespass, and the reason is that the more serious the repentance the greater the change and thus obedience and fruit for Christ. It looks at what He did and desires people to understand the evilness of sin. So they will walk in holiness. At its core it says people have hard hearts until they truly repent and then in repentance God restores them and their heart becomes more like Him.

2. The other says repentance is aligning with what God says is simply a change of mind because it looks to the power of the cross, and sees we are new creations in Christ, that He changed our hearts, and as we discover where we need to change our mind, we agree with Him. And by agreeing with Him continually we turn from sin and reveal fruit. The core idea being we live from what Christ did as children of God so repentance doesn't change us, iit's actually the realization God is good and we want to follow His ways.

Both views have their reasonings:

1. Focuses on this because they believe the other gives people permission for false repentance, they simply change their mind, but no heart transformation takes place and thus no fruit.

2. The other focuses on this because they believe the other puts people into a place of trying to change themselves, instead of believing He did from the cross, they believe heart repentance doesn't come from tears and sorrow, but by understanding the goodness of God which leads past having to repent for sin and into being loving, kind, good, which fulfill sins demand and loves, which they believe view 1 doesn't adequately do. It helps people not sin, but the empowerment of God is when we agree with Him what it looks like to be in Christ, thus a change of mind.

Anyone disagree? If so what is your view in contrast with the other view, and why do you believe yours is correct and the other dangerous.

 

[Willie-T]

Just to clarify are you writing about a believer repenting or an unbeliever coming to the knowledge of Jesus or both?

I think he meant.... and I answered... as a believer.

 

[Cee]

I think HRFG and Angela bring up finer points, and I am grappling with them.

From HRFG I agree we need to keep our eyes on Christ and not ourselves, but we also need to agree with what He says about us. That's important to Him. We are not saved by knowledge, but as we agree with Him, we do see the effect of the cross work through our life in greater measure. This is not just in the mind, but it starts there and it flows out as fruit.

From Angela: I absolutely loved her post about the history of different moves of God, personally I have been moved to tears, but it was because my focus on Him, I was absolutely devestated by His love for me and how I had treated Him. I quickly asked forgiveness, because of relationship with Him, I value Him so much, I want to stay in this place. And I agree with her, repentance should be viewed as a life won over by His love, this should always be a standard for us, and if the fruit isn't showing I think this reveals need for greater repentance.

From G7: I love your focus on glorifying in what the cross accomplished. It is very powerful. It inspires me when I see what promises God had given us that I can agree with. And I also appreciate that you tackle Scriptures to show how they fit from the victory is won point of view. You give me ample ammunition to pray about with Holy Spirit in regards to my own walk.

From Peter: I love your heart that people would embrace the reality of life and God, I misunderstood you before and I think sometimes you are now, but I agree with you, our faith needs to look like sonething, it needs to show our love for God and for the world.

I don't want to make this too long or I would write to many more of you.

I appreciate you all, you each share beautiful insights and points of view, thank you for being obedient to what you feel God has called you to do.

I want to challenge us to not just discuss Scripture, but live it. Let's focus on our agreements, when discussing our disagreements, sometimes I think we can do the opposite which is focusing on our disagreements when discussing our disagreements.

So let's remember the places we do agree and build from there. I believe this forum is valuable to God. And each of you are important to Him. So many people are blesses by your posts and the investment you have made each day to share truth with the Body.

Scripture is good, theology is good, but following Christ is shown in our daily lifestyle off this forum and in it. And that's where we teach the loudest.

Love you guys and thank you for helping my walk with Him. And I mean it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You have over stepped the bounds, along with Lauren for mocking God and comparing repentance to avocados, or dragon eggs. I rarely warn people, but I am in particular warning Grace777 for his leading so many people astray with his posts.

I am warning EG for saying that people are not allowed to post what the Bible says (Because that is what is happening) and never posting the Bible yourself. You are a parrot. God is not mocked.

It is sad, If not for Laurens post, I never would have seen this. I started to read this post a few days ago. And stopped. Because I consider angela a good friend, and even in a few of my emails to some good people concerning this thread (which I still can not believe people are posting in, because it is a hate thread through and through) And then sadly I had to see this a few minutes ago.

Angela. When have I ever said people are not allowed to post what the bible says? That was not my beef with this thread, and the many attack threads people have been posting over the past few weeks and months.

If this thread was about repentance, as I said there would be no complaint, But it was not, It was a thread hidden in disguise as another attack on hypergrace. That was the sole purpose of this thread. Most people have realized this.

You should know better than that Angela. I know you are in a lot of pain, and I know things are rough, so I gave you the benefit of the doubt and leeway, But this is bad. If I am a parrot for condemning an attack thread disguised as an actual bible discussion thread. What does that make you?

You need to read posts Angela.. Hyper grace is your gospel to. Just because they may have a few different terms, or interpret things differently than you do. does not mean they do not believe as you do (unless you somehow changed and went legalist on me since last we spoke)

Stop listening to these anti hypergrace people. They have fed you a bunch of stuff which they got from biased people. Not from the people themselves.

I do not agree with everything a particular group may say, But their gospel is no different than ours THEY ARE NOT TELLING PEOPLE IT IS OK TO SIN ALL YOU WANT.

That is a strawman of a few select people who have been attacking others in this thread lately.

What is even sadder, is that the avacodo egg remark had nothing to do with repentance, so you just false accused a brother and sister in Christ, I pray you do what I know you have in you and repent and confess this sin. Maybe you did not see this.

I will not warn you of anything, I still consider you my sister in Christ, But please I beg of you. Stop..

 

[Cee]

1. Was the other view of repentance not yours, what I understand from your posts is listed as #2.

Maybe I should have clarified that better.

I agree with most of your assessment. I would just add that the part in blue above - I look at differently.

I believe true repentance will produce as it's fruit - true turning from any sin as far as sinning goes in the equation. Repentance is far more then stopping sin - it's aligning ourselves with a transformed mind to believe all that the Holy Spirit reveals to us about our Lord and Father.

Like I said I believe in "hyper-repenting"..always will. ( and yes that means how I view all types of sinning ) I love it!

Outbursts of anger, malice and slander are just as much a work of the flesh just like adultery, stealing and murder.

I have posted 2x times in this thread about the "fruits of repentance" and yes it includes all types of sin. And I have a hatred for sinning as it distorts my view of God, myself, others and is a bad witness for the Lord.

I have also said that everyone is free to agree to disagree too. We all agree as to what the Christian life looks like - we may deviate on how that is done. I am not going to call someone a heretic because they believe differently in this matter.

 

[Cee]

Great points of view, I'm going to chew over them

I stressed simply because the idea we are discussing is repentance as a change of mind or is it something deeper? So you're saying as you accepted what God said about you, it was much easier to live e, by this do you mean you loved Him more and it was easier to follow Him?

What does repentance look like to you now, with this understanding?

I agree with both ways you seem to see it.

All I found issue with is that you twice used the word "simply" when you spoke of changing your mind, as though this was nothing more than a decision whether to have pizza or mac & cheese for dinner. This couldn't be farther from the truth.

For me, it was a gigantic change of my mind from the view I grew up with, that I held the key to Salvation in my belief and actions that proved (or at least, demonstrated) that I was worthy of God's attention because my efforts in showing Him I was a candidate... to realizing I had to either FULLY trust Him, or only PARTIALLY trust Him.

Again, this is only my view, but I have found the way I used to live.... being "certain" because I knew I was up-to-date on my rule-keeping... a MUCH easier life to live than it suddenly became when I first "changed my mind" from that idea, to the kind of scary thought of ONLY trusting that it is what Jesus did that counts for anything. For a long time, I kept wanting to "hedge my bet" by showing God I was still dutifully making myself Holy by doing the accepted things.

 

[Stephen63]

Scripture also says...

The Kingdom of God is within us... and in Holy Spirit...

Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

We can either choose to look at things are going to be worse, or we can choose to look at Scriptures that say the Kingdom of God is going to cover the Earth. And thus making things better.

I believe our desire to make disciples has been attacked through the idea that things are going to get worse, so people don't try to make things better, they just wait for the world to end. I don't see the hope in that gospel so I choose to focus on the Kingdom of God which is peace, joy, and righteousness covering the Earth.

And the knowledge of His glory covering the Earth as well. And we know glory and goodness are connected because of God's reply to Moses.

Just how did the "gospel of the kingdom being proclaimed" get turned into "the kingdom of God covering the earth"?

It's this type of "rephrasing the scriptures" that's common among the hypergracers..... Joseph Prince started it, & his followers continue to "parrot" his message with no Bible training or understanding whatsoever.

But guess what..... no amount of copy/pasting of hypergrace will make one knowledgeable..... they will still be destroyed for lack of knowledge. All other knowledge besides the knowledge of God is spiritually worthless.....VAIN.

Matthew 15:3-9 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? [SUP]4 [/SUP]For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; [SUP]6 [/SUP]And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. [SUP]7[/SUP]Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, [SUP]8 [/SUP]This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. [SUP]9 [/SUP]But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

 

[Willie-T]

Great points of view, I'm going to chew over them

I stressed simply because the idea we are discussing is repentance as a change of mind or is it something deeper? So you're saying as you accepted what God said about you, it was much easier to live e, by this do you mean you loved Him more and it was easier to follow Him?

What does repentance look like to you now, with this understanding?

It means I did not reverse, in just a few days, or even months, a lifetime of depending on "being a good Christian" to save me. It was easily a full year before the instinct to react like a trained robot just because "I was supposed to" left me.

If, for instance, you even mentioned the words "homosexual" or "Mormon" in front of me, I almost automatically judged hellfire and brimstone to rain down. I no longer do that. I find myself asking Jesus "how can I help rescue this one for you." If someone said " damn" around me, I dismissed them as hellbound. Today, I am ashamed that I did that.

 

[Stephen63]

You need to read posts Angela.. Hyper grace is your gospel to. Just because they may have a few different terms, or interpret things differently than you do. does not mean they do not believe as you do (unless you somehow changed and went legalist on me since last we spoke)

Most false doctrines rephrase what is written & claimed to be the doctrine that always was. Then they tell you, "we all believe the same thing". How many times have we heard that from the muslims? "We believe in the same God"?

A actionless, worthless faith..... now an actionless, worthless repentance.

Just change your minds, and make a decision for Christ. Godly sorrow is gone, & so is commitment by heart-felt obedience led by the Holy Spirit.

What gets me is the pure hypocrisy of the hypergracers by telling us we just believe what legalist teachers tell us. The irony.....

 

[Grace777x70]

(snip)

A actionless, worthless faith..... now an actionless, worthless repentance.

Just change your minds, and make a decision for Christ. Godly sorrow is gone, & so is commitment by heart-felt obedience led by the Holy Spirit.

(snip)

That is complete nonsense and is in fact just a "construct" of your own mind. It has nothing to do with reality as grace believers in Christ say the exact opposite of what you said in the above quote.

We all agree of how the Christian life should look like as they mature in the Lord. Where we may differ is how that is accomplished. We believe it is done by beholding the glory of the Lord and the Holy Spirit transforms us as we participate in getting to know Him and walk by the Spirit. This all done by grace through faith in all that Christ has already done for us.

 

[Cee]

I didn't copy paste anything.

Rephrasing Scripture? The Knowledge of His glory will cover the Earth. The Kingdom of God is "within us", the Kingdom of God is "in the Holy Spirit", and we will make DISCIPLES around the world. That means disciples and thus Holy Spirit will be covering the Earth. That's where I concluded the Kingdom of God covers the Earth.

Instead of attacking me, ask what I meant. I don't mind explaining, you don't have to agree of course, but I will explain where I come up with my conclusions.

I'm a person not a doctrine.

Just how did the "gospel of the kingdom being proclaimed" get turned into "the kingdom of God covering the earth"?

It's this type of "rephrasing the scriptures" that's common among the hypergracers..... Joseph Prince started it, & his followers continue to "parrot" his message with no Bible training or understanding whatsoever.

But guess what..... no amount of copy/pasting of hypergrace will make one knowledgeable..... they will still be destroyed for lack of knowledge. All other knowledge besides the knowledge of God is spiritually worthless.....VAIN.

Matthew 15:3-9 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? [SUP]4 [/SUP]For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; [SUP]6 [/SUP]And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. [SUP]7[/SUP]Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, [SUP]8 [/SUP]This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. [SUP]9 [/SUP]But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

 

[Cee]

My thoughts:

I agree, sin sucks. We don't want any part of it. We need to lay it down and run forward looking to Jesus.

I agree, we need to repent. And it should take us into obedience.

But not everybody needs "heart-felt sorrow" to have "heart-felt" obedience.

If you did something wrong, did you parents punish you until you cried for you to change your mind about your actions? I hope not.

Scripture continually compares our "evil" parents to the "goodness" of our Father. So why would He need to do less.

Does godly sorrow have its place? Yes.
Does repentance HAVE to be godly sorrow or it's worthless? That's religion in its highest form.

Which interestingly is exactly what a tradition of man is:

You can tell religious ideas because they exclude relationship with things like: "have to, must, always". And it attacks freedom which believes in relationship with God and truth is a person. Not a collection of principles Why? Because religion loses its security. Instead of trusting Holy Spirit to guide His people and convict of sin. Religion takes the duty on itself. It often denies the existence of a living God who is well able to teach, train, empower, and equip Himself without the addition of religion's fear, guilt, and control. And those who are under it, generally feel the need to put others under it also.

Religion pointed to Jesus' apparent "false works". He didn't DO things they way they thought it should be done. Jesus pointed to His relationship. He confronted these traditions of man by revealing His relationship. And ultimately empowering us to have the same relationship He has with the Father. How? By giving us His Spirit.

Religion also minimizes its own errors while maximizing others. It desires to be right not righteous. It looks for what it must do to justify itself. And then when others' find their justification in something else, it attacks because at its core it is fear.

Let's for a minute, look at what sin really is. Let's really look at it.

It's not when you do what's wrong. That's a small part of it. But that's not what tripped up the law-keepers is it?

It's actually when you don't do what is right. 24/7. Always doing what is right. Loving the people around you, revealing Christ to them, being good to them, giving to the homeless, the poor, praying for the sick (yes we are commanded to do that), anytime we don't do what is right, this is sin. Anytime we don't do something out of faith, this is sin.

Religion thinks a collection of principles will tell you what you should do. But I promise you, it doesn't have a clue. It looks at what it's NOT doing instead of what it is doing. Why? Because it can't quantify it. How do you know what do and not do? Religion says look at what not to do and everything else is okay. Relationship says look to God and follow Him.

And I promise you one more thing, relationship is the only way to exit religion. Jesus showed us this, He empowered us to walk like Him, and He expects us to teach others the same.

Any focus outside of looking to Him, following Him, hearing His Spirit misses the mark, IMO.

My question is, is what we're teaching, helping people see Him, hear Him, follow Him? Or is it teaching them why they can't do these things? One builds one destroys, one encourages one accuses, and one inspires love the other inspires fear.

2 Tim 1:7 for God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.

Let us agree. We do not have a spirit of fear. But we do have one of power. One of love. And one of self-control. That means we can follow Him and we can love others.

I think a thread about righteousness is in order, because how can we be in right-standing, if we don't have right-hearing? How can we hear His Spirit and follow what He is doing, if we instead we are lead by what we think is true instead of Him a Person? I want to call us up to a higher level. Let us truly fix our eyes on Jesus Christ and let those who have ears hear what His Spirit is saying. I believe this is righteousness in it's highest form. Following Him. And anything that misses this mark is not repentance.

Any explanation of Repentance must include love, it must include freedom, and it must include following the Spirit of God.

 

[Cee]

Oops,

I noticed I wrote "must" several times at the end of my post. After saying "must" shows us where religion might be hiding.

This is what I wrote previously:

"Any explanation of Repentance must include love, it must include freedom, and it must include following the Spirit of God."

So I will correct myself, this thought probably has a bit of religion in it itself.

So I think a better idea is:

I believe repentance will be better understood and lived out when it includes love, freedom, and following the Spirit of God. Since these are the things I believe we are called to "repent" to.

My thoughts:

I agree, sin sucks. We don't want any part of it. We need to lay it down and run forward looking to Jesus.

I agree, we need to repent. And it should take us into obedience.

But not everybody needs "heart-felt sorrow" to have "heart-felt" obedience.

If you did something wrong, did you parents punish you until you cried for you to change your mind about your actions? I hope not.

Scripture continually compares our "evil" parents to the "goodness" of our Father. So why would He need to do less.

Does godly sorrow have its place? Yes.
Does repentance HAVE to be godly sorrow or it's worthless? That's religion in its highest form.

Which interestingly is exactly what a tradition of man is:

You can tell religious ideas because they exclude relationship with things like: "have to, must, always". And it attacks freedom which believes in relationship with God and truth is a person. Not a collection of principles Why? Because religion loses its security. Instead of trusting Holy Spirit to guide His people and convict of sin. Religion takes the duty on itself. It often denies the existence of a living God who is well able to teach, train, empower, and equip Himself without the addition of religion's fear, guilt, and control. And those who are under it, generally feel the need to put others under it also.

Religion pointed to Jesus' apparent "false works". He didn't DO things they way they thought it should be done. Jesus pointed to His relationship. He confronted these traditions of man by revealing His relationship. And ultimately empowering us to have the same relationship He has with the Father. How? By giving us His Spirit.

Religion also minimizes its own errors while maximizing others. It desires to be right not righteous. It looks for what it must do to justify itself. And then when others' find their justification in something else, it attacks because at its core it is fear.

Let's for a minute, look at what sin really is. Let's really look at it.

It's not when you do what's wrong. That's a small part of it. But that's not what tripped up the law-keepers is it?

It's actually when you don't do what is right. 24/7. Always doing what is right. Loving the people around you, revealing Christ to them, being good to them, giving to the homeless, the poor, praying for the sick (yes we are commanded to do that), anytime we don't do what is right, this is sin. Anytime we don't do something out of faith, this is sin.

Religion thinks a collection of principles will tell you what you should do. But I promise you, it doesn't have a clue. It looks at what it's NOT doing instead of what it is doing. Why? Because it can't quantify it. How do you know what do and not do? Religion says look at what not to do and everything else is okay. Relationship says look to God and follow Him.

And I promise you one more thing, relationship is the only way to exit religion. Jesus showed us this, He empowered us to walk like Him, and He expects us to teach others the same.

Any focus outside of looking to Him, following Him, hearing His Spirit misses the mark, IMO.

My question is, is what we're teaching, helping people see Him, hear Him, follow Him? Or is it teaching them why they can't do these things? One builds one destroys, one encourages one accuses, and one inspires love the other inspires fear.

2 Tim 1:7 for God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.

Let us agree. We do not have a spirit of fear. But we do have one of power. One of love. And one of self-control. That means we can follow Him and we can love others.

I think a thread about righteousness is in order, because how can we be in right-standing, if we don't have right-hearing? How can we hear His Spirit and follow what He is doing, if we instead we are lead by what we think is true instead of Him a Person? I want to call us up to a higher level. Let us truly fix our eyes on Jesus Christ and let those who have ears hear what His Spirit is saying. I believe this is righteousness in it's highest form. Following Him. And anything that misses this mark is not repentance.

Any explanation of Repentance must include love, it must include freedom, and it must include following the Spirit of God.

 

[UnderGrace]

Oops,I believe repentance will be better understood and lived out when it includes love, freedom, and following the Spirit of God. Since these are the things I believe we are called to "repent" to.

I like this line the best, I may have to quote you on that!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Most false doctrines rephrase what is written & claimed to be the doctrine that always was. Then they tell you, "we all believe the same thing". How many times have we heard that from the muslims? "We believe in the same God"?

Saying you believe in the same God is not the same as saying you believe the same gospel.

The jews believed in the same God as Jesus, Yet they crucified, because they believed in a different truth.

A actionless, worthless faith..... now an actionless, worthless repentance.

lol.. That's only if you make repentance something that it is not.

I have yet to see any of the so called "hypergrace" people talk about a worthless repentance which does not change lives.

Just change your minds, and make a decision for Christ. Godly sorrow is gone, & so is commitment by heart-felt obedience led by the Holy Spirit.

1. Who said just change your mind? Do you know what in reality it takes to truly change your mind from the worlds thinking to Gods? If it was just a simple act. Why do not more h. Meaning you have to humble yourself and and be like the tax collector who is so broken that he can not even look up to heaven, and crys out to his lord. Have mercy on me a sinner.

Who did Jesus say was going to heaven? Him or the legalistic Pharisee?

Godly sorrow is gone? Says who number 1. and number 2, do you even know what that is? DO you think the Pharisee had Godly sorrow or the tax collector?

commitment is gone? Did your father tell you to do everything he said or you would not be his son? I hope you obeyed your father because he was trustworthy, and because you loved him, Not out of some religious commitment.

Grace causes obedience out of thanksgiving and a grateful heart.

Legalism does not cause obedience, It causes self righteousness, and hidden, or unconfessed or unacknowledged sin.. Look at what we have in here lately. Slander and false accusation. that is not confessed or acknowledged as sin.

Is that Godly? May it never be!

 

[royalscot]

Metanoia (μετάνοια) is the Greek word that is translated as repentance in the New Testament (NT). It conveys the idea of reconsideration (or consideration); e.g., thinking about something in the midst of new information (meta = amid; noieo = exercise the mind, ie, think).

In the NT, the word is virtually always used to convey the idea of reconsidering one's path in relation to GOD, forsaking that path and returning to his ways. This necessarily always involves the acknowledgement of what separates GOD and man, ie., sin. For example.

​Now in those days John the Baptist came preaching in the Judean wilderness and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near!” ... And they were baptized in the Jordan by him, acknowledging their sins. Matthew 3:6Matthew 3:1-2​

This concept got twisted when Jerome translated metanoia in the Vulgate with a Latin word meaning do penance (which is where the word repentance derives from).

Hyper grace doctrine takes the concept of metanoia and twists it to mean framing and focusing on an identity (ie., a mental concept).

IMO, hyper grace doctrine is a modern-day manifestation of the gnostic heresy that appeared in the church almost from its beginning. John refuted several gnostic ideas in his letters to the church. Some gnostic traditions hold that gnosticism began with Simon the sorcerer mentioned in Acts 8:9.

So I did a search for gnosticism + metanoia, and was stunned to find that it is the foundational principle of gnosticism. For example:

Christ then took a human form (Jesus), to teach humanity how to achieve Gnosis. The ultimate end of all Gnosis is μετάνοια metanoia, or repentance—undoing the sin of material existence [wrong identity] and returning to Pleroma [the fullness of the godhead].​

So what I'd like to do with this thread is show the similarity between the gnostic and hyper grace concepts of metanoia; they are virtually identical. But I want to do it in a fun way. So as I find new material I'll post a quote from a source and ask the question - Gnosticism or Hyper grace? - and let everyone try to decide. Here's the first:

Gnosticism or Hyper grace?

When the texts in the Old Testament were eventually translated into English, the Greek word metanoia was translated as ‘repentance’. However, this word actually signifies much more than simply asking for forgiveness of sins. It literally means ‘to change your mind’.... The second coming is the raising of our consciousness to that of the Christ. But, as we make an effort to change our minds, it is expected that, occasionally, we will miss the mark. Christ is the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by Christ.​

act 15 , repent you need a law (gentile)