Repentance: A Boast in the Flesh

PeterJens · Jul 20, 2016

What you have to understand is there is no clear description of what we are.
As I have said, 5 things are said to make up a person. Their body, their mind, soul, spirit, heart.

Add to this carnal desires, or desires rooted in our physical needs, sometimes called the flesh, things
related to this earth and its survival. Now God says all of it will go to eternity.

There will be a new heaven and a new earth and Gods dwelling will be with man. Jesus was risen with
a new body, the resurrection body. Nothing is innately evil in us, it turns to evil because of a lack of
communion/relationship with God.

eternally-gratefull · Jul 20, 2016

ladylynn said:

I think if people stopped listening to the propoganda from sources which are against whatever it is they are against (ie hypergrace) they would see, they have the same gospel we have.. Just maybe use different terms, or see terms interpreted differently..

of course, for some of us old timers, it is hard to get past changing.. Even if it is the same..

Grace777x70 · Jul 20, 2016

Sometimes the meaning of a word like "repentance" gets hi-jacked from our religious teachings and when we hear something different - it upsets us.

People that go to websites that are against a certain ministry or teaching are getting their information from one side which is usually not presenting the truth. The accusation that people that believe in grace ( which some use the term in a derogatory way and call it hyper-grace ) that it is heresy - is simply complete foolishness and it is not based on any semblance of the truth and is an out-right falsehood.

Let's look at it by what the people that believe in the grace of Christ "actually" do say. Here is a post from one of our members outlining what is this "hyper-grace".

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...conditional-unconditional-20.html#post2633067

What About ‘Hyper-Grace’???

Posted on February 26, 2014 by JGIG
What About ‘Hyper-Grace’???

Over the past year or so (starting in 2013), a manufactured label, ‘Hyper-Grace’, has been made popular and applied to the Gospel of Grace. Personally, I embrace the term, because in my opinion, the Living God coming to Earth as a man to die for oursin and bear the judgement due us, and then to give those who believe the gift of Righteousness and New Life in order to reconcile us to Himself is a pretty Hyper Grace!

That aside, not all believers embrace the term, and many are uncomfortable with the concept of pure Grace. Rather those who mix Law and Grace use the term as aderogatory label, on which they pile false accusations about what the Gospel of Grace is and how those who walk in Grace live their lives.

A main instigator in applying the Hyper-Grace label to Grace-embracing believers is Dr. Michael Brown. Understand that Dr. Brown is a respected theologian, and many take what he says quite seriously, seeing him as a credible source sounding a valid alarm – “Christians are seeing Grace as a license to sin!”,“Hyper-Grace teachings are leading to ‘grace horror stories!’” and the hyperbolic like.

You can do a search with Dr. Brown’s name and ‘Hyper-Grace’ and get a number of video teachings and interviews that he’s done on the subject, as well as an assortment of articles regarding the Hyper-Grace label/concept. Note the ‘tabloidesque’ flavor to his interviews with Sid Roth, and the unbridled discussion about how this ‘hyper-grace’ can (and in their opinion does) lead to the loss of salvation.

How do you avoid losing your salvation?

By not sinning, of course!

How do you keep from sinning?

By keeping laws/commandments/rules . . . whatever the circle of like-minded folks you surround yourself with deems appropriate as the Biblical standard.

And if you do sin?

Repeated confession and repentance to God for sins that, according to their theology, God will hold against you if you don’t!

This of course, is contrary to contextual Scriptures (John 3:16-18, Romans 5, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19, 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1-2 for starters).

Many of the resources available on the Audio and Text Resources page here at JGIG refute the ‘Hyper-Grace’ hype, giving a Biblical defense for the Gospel of Grace.

Rob Rufus actually recorded a teaching entitled, ‘A Biblical Defense of the Gospel of Grace‘ several years before Dr. Brown made the ‘Hyper-Grace’ label popular. A video version of the teaching can be viewed, as well:

Paul Ellis, author at the site, Escape to Reality, author of The Gospel in Ten Words, and The Gospel in Twenty Questions (links also in the left sidebar below), took the issue head on in “Confronting the Error of Hyper-Grace” – a response to Michael Brown, which garnered a few hundred comments in a good, lively discussion. One more (of many) good articles found at his site in line with what we’re discussing here: Confession, Conviction, Confusion!

When Dr. Brown’s book on ‘Hyper-Grace’ came out, D.R. Silva put together a good resource rebutting the common arguments against Grace. Silva builds a solid defense for the Gospel of Grace in about 68 pages, whereas Brown’s book spends 304 pages trying to refute the Gospel of Grace and expound on its ‘dangers’.

D.R. Silva does reference Dr. Brown in his book, but I think it’s important to note that Hyper-Grace: The Dangerous Doctrine of a Happy God is not primarily a refutation of Hyper-Grace: Exposing the Dangers of the Modern Grace Message (dangerous stuff, that Grace of God!!!), but rather a Biblical defense of the Grace position, taking on the common arguments/accusations leveled by those who mischaracterize the Grace position.‘Grace is good, But . . . !’ should have been the title for Dr. Brown’s book. A good audio by Rob Rufus, a teaching recorded several years ago, is available with a similar title: Grace is Good – No Buts!

Edited to add 4/7/14:
Paul Ellis has published a book entitled, “The Hyper-Grace Gospel: A Response to Michael Brown and Those Opposed to the Modern Grace Message“, where he also provides an outline of the content, which systematically addresses the false perceptions of the Gospel of Grace as well as responds to specific assertions made by Dr. Brown. Ellis puts together a definitive, clear presentation first and foremost of the Gospel of Grace. Highly recommended:

A good video review of D.R. Silva’s book can be found here: Book Review “Hyper Grace – the Dangerous Doctrine of a Happy God”

So if someone warns you of the ‘dangers’ of ‘Hyper-Grace’, the Audio and Text Resources, Video Resources, and The Gospel pages have lots of materials to support the Biblical Gospel of Grace, and this article has given you a few specific resources (click on the embedded links) to help you defend the Gospel of Grace with confidence and good humor. [Added 5/4/14 – And more good humor.]
And Grace \o/..

JGIG · Jul 20, 2016

PeterJens said:

Paul and the other Apostles are in agreement about the Good News of the Work of Christ. If you truly want to know my views about it, please read

Jesus’ Gospel? Paul’s Gospel?

I address in detail the question in the title.

I've debated whether or not to respond to this tactic of yours. I've seen you bait others who disagree with you, and it gets ugly fast.

Simply more slander and add to that character assassination. By framing those who disagree with you as perhaps having 'emotional problems', you hope to disqualify what they say in the debate.

Oh, and it's not just me who you think has emotional problems, but "EVERYONE".

Folks have read enough of what I've written on this forum that I'm content to let God and the reader judge between us.

Again, what are you talking about? Who are you addressing? You've constructed some imaginary foe who isn't me. Have I demonstrated your slander? Yes. But you won't own it, so you do what you accuse me of - get personal and continue to slander and try to frame me and others here as those with 'emotional problems'.

I don't know you, PJ. What I can, and have done, is to demonstrate your slander, character assassination, and passive aggressive behavior, based on your posts.

It's like you post from a parallel universe - "a hypothetical self-contained reality co-existing with one's own." You take a small, out of context piece of what someone says, and make these weird posts full of accusations and innuendos about concepts that your totally misrepresenting. It's goofy . . . and it does get old.

Do rest assured that I'm not suffering any 'emotional problems' from your posts, though, ha!

-JGIG

PeterJens · Jul 20, 2016

Got to say, those who first discover something, suddenly think it is the most important thing
ever. In truth the most important thing is Christ and His work in our lives.

The real discovery I have made is hurting people, saying their view of Christ condemned them
daily and made them feel rejected.

So let us get real. Walking with God is not just believe and everything flows from there.
The whole of cc demonstrates we are responsible for how we walk.

Your whole christian lives shout this. You are hurt, turned aside, condemned by legalism,
or a simple moral code which you could not keep.

So what matters, what is eternal in the Lord? My summary is gifts of love.
Deeds done seeing need and meeting it. These are eternal, they never fade.
They could be words spoken, gifts delivered, time spent, wisdom shared.

In 20 years many here will be dead. So the question is what are you going to
do with this time? God gives you a free hand, to imagine and express the gift
of love He has given you. Maybe you do not know Christ well enough and love
does not flow easily from you, then get to know Him better, read the gospel
of John and feel His presence.

Grace777x70 · Jul 20, 2016

Here is another post from JGIG - one of our members here which help us to "repent" of some beliefs that have been falsely mis-represented by well-meaning Christians. This looks like a Hebrews 12:15 situation which we need to be careful of.

Please read this carefully so that you can find out what is "really" being said so that we can stop having these false mis-representations being made by those that may not agree to a point or two. At the very least thee truth of what is believed should be told.

Why I am Hyper-Grace: Answering Five Common Objections

Is Hyper-Grace “dangerous” or “imbalanced”?

Author: Jeremy White/Thursday, August 21, 2014/Categories: Jeremy White, Top Picks

Introduction:

In recent times, a label has surfaced regarding what some view as a “dangerous” or “imbalanced” teaching of the grace of God. “Hyper-Grace” is now a term being used to suggest that there are some folks (such as myself) who “take God’s grace too far” and in so doing either ignore or minimize other significant teachings of the Bible.

What follows is an attempt to address a few of the most common “warnings” some have offered regarding those of us who make much of the finished work of Christ.

Objection #1: The Hyper-Grace Gospel is Unbiblical

For starters, you may be shocked to discover that “hyper-grace” is really the only adequate description for grace in the first place, according to the Bible. For example, when Paul wrote in Romans 5:20 that “…where sin increased, grace increased all the more” he was literally referring to God’s grace as “hyper.”

The Greek term for the phrase “increased all the more” (NIV) is huper-perisseuo which literally means “super-abounded.” Hyper is simply a transliteration of the prefix “huper” in Greek and means “above and beyond” in scope or quality. The term “perisseuo” refers to that which is “in far excess of what might be expected, superfluous or gratuitous.”

So in Paul’s description of God’s amazing grace, he is literally saying that because of the abundance of sin in this world, God’s grace has super-abounded in order to rescue us from sin! Paul literally describes God’s grace as HYPER in this passage. It is super-abundant and unfathomably plentiful and powerful. In fact, a few verses later Paul would state that the very reason sin is no longer our master is because we are no longer under law, but under this hyper-abounding grace (Rom. 6:14)!

If this is what one means by “hyper-grace,” then count me in as one of the “grace-heretics!” It is a label that was applied to both Paul and Jesus by the Pharisees of their day, so I am more than happy to wear it in ours. As the late scholar D. Martin Lloyd-Jones famously pointed out (andthis is my paraphrase), "If people do not sometimes misunderstand and falsely accuse you of being soft-on-sin or against God’s law, you are not preaching the real gospel!"

Objection #2: Hyper-Grace Preachers are Soft on Sin

This is a common one, of course. The idea here is that because of our high esteem of the finished work of Christ and our insistence upon keeping our eyes fixated on Jesus as Author and Finisher of our faith (Heb. 12:2), we are either afraid to preach against sin or do not take sin seriously enough.

Far from being “soft on sin” – we who preach grace are extremely big on Jesus. Any gospel worthy of the hyper-grace label is a gospel which points all fingers toward Jesus rather than judgmentally pointing them at those He came to save.

There are definitely many contexts in which it is appropriate to talk about sin, warn about sin and preach against sin. I do this routinely in my preaching ministry, as do my friends who are also labeled as hyper-grace preachers. Sin is bad. It is ugly. It brings death to everything it touches. It grieves God. It makes us miserable. It comes with a variety of consequences.

No legitimate grace-preacher that I am aware of minimizes the reality that sin is evil, wrong, bad, unproductive and unfitting for a new creation in Christ. What we DO focus on, however, is the Answer to sin, which is Jesus – and the fact that His grace alone is precisely what delivers us from its penalty (death), its power (enslavement) and eventually even its very presence (when we live in the fullness of His heavenly kingdom one day).

I talk about sin all the time, but not as a means of manipulating, judging or condemning people. I talk about sin so as to help people understand both their daily and eternal need for Jesus as Savior and Lord. We hyper-grace preachers are simply standing with Paul on the promise that it is the grace of God which “teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, and to live soberly, righteously and godly in the present age…” (Titus 2:11-13).

Paul taught that the power of sin is the law (1 Cor. 15:56). If a person wants to ensure that they will remain in slavery to life-dominating sin and addiction, one simple way to do that is to live under a law-based mentality. A grace-saturated life, however, frees us from the grip of sin’s mastery over us. Far from being soft on sin, we take sin very seriously. So seriously that we are pointing people unapologetically to the only Source of rescue from it! That Source is not trying harder to be a good person, culturally-espoused self-help tactics or pop-psychology.

That Source is Jesus Christ and the grace He alone offers.

Objection #3: Hyper-Grace Preachers Don’t Believe in Repentance

Not only do we believe in repentance, but we seek to understand and teach it thoroughly and accurately. In the New Testament, “to repent” is a translation of the Greek verb “metanoeo” meaning “to change one’s mind or perspective.”

Obviously, when we receive Christ, we have repented in the genuine sense of the term – changing our minds about our need of a Savior and receiving Christ.

Before Christ, we lived as self-sufficiently as possible, thinking that God would probably grade on a curve and accept us at least partly on the basis of our own best efforts and self-generated goodness. When we came to understand our spiritual bankruptcy and our desperate need for Christ’s forgiveness and new life, we repented (had a change of perspective) and received Christ by trusting in Him alone to rescue us.

Beyond this initial experience of “getting saved” (as we often call it), repentance is a daily lifestyle in which an ongoing “renewal of the mind” process is taking place within us. As we grow in faith and in our understanding of God through His Word and our union with His Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 6:17), we begin to replace old thinking with new thinking and false thinking with true thinking. This renewal of the mind (Rom. 12:1-3) is an integral part of the transformative process of the Spirit’s work in our lives. This is the essence of a lifestyle of repentance – taking false thoughts captive, making them obedient to (in conformity with) Christ (2 Cor. 10:5).

Paul affirmed in no uncertain terms that God’s kindness (His expressed grace toward us) is what leads to repentance (Rom. 2:4). Far from being anti-repentance, hyper-grace theology affirms repentance and the ongoing renewal of the mind as an integral part of what it means to follow Jesus under His New Covenant.

Objection #4: Hyper-Grace Preachers Are Against Confession of Sin

This is one of the most common misrepresentations of hyper-grace theology. The Biblical term “to confess” simply means “to speak the same thing as” or “to agree with.” We teach that confession is important because we should yield our minds to agreement with God about everything He reveals – including, but not limited to, sin.

What we often also teach (and this is where the rub is with some people) is that confession is not about triggering any transaction between us and God that would issue forth more forgiveness, as though God were dispensing forgiveness in various doses based upon our confessions. Forgiveness of sin is something that was provided objectively ONE time by ONE act of grace through ONE Savior who shed His blood on the cross for us 2000 years ago. As the book of Hebrews repeatedly emphasizes, He is the “once for all” sacrifice for sin.

Confession of sin then, is about humility and walking in agreement with God – not about getting more forgiveness from Him. Some will suggest that God’s forgiveness is dispensed using a “two-tiered” approach. On one level, they say, God has forgiven our sins judicially and objectively through the cross. On the second tier, however, we need to confess our sins in order to receive “relational” or“experiential” forgiveness in order to maintain close fellowship with God.

This two-tiered approach is nowhere taught in the New Testament, and has only been popularized because of two basic levels of rationale. The first is based upon a misinterpretation of two passages in the New Testament, both of which have been clearly explained in books and sermons by a host of solid gospel teachers. These two passages are Matthew 6:12 (where Jesus appears to be commanding His followers to ask for God’s forgiveness) and 1 John 1:9 (which seems to link forgiveness to confession of sin).

In my book “The Gospel Uncut: Learning to Rest in the Grace of God” I deal with these passages quite clearly, as do other authors such as Bob George, Andrew Farley, Ralph Harris, Paul Ellis, Cathy Hildebrand and Andrew Nelson. I encourage you to investigate these writings for yourself in order to understand the context in which these passages were intended to be understood.

The bottom-line is this. We hyper-grace preachers DO value confession of sin. We also practice confession of sin in our own lives. However, we understand confession to be about agreeing with God concerning the foolishness of our sin rather than begging for forgiveness based upon a humanly-invented two-tiered approach to somehow "maintaining close fellowship" with Him.

Our fellowship with God was purchased unconditionally and irreversibly by Jesus at the cross. Once we receive that fellowship by simple faith in Christ, it is our eternal possession regardless of our recent performance or track-record. As I’ve written in my book, The Gospel Uncut:

"The way I now approach confession is to simply agree with God about the foolishness of my sin. I admit to Him that my sin hurts me as well as others and that it fails to bring glory to His Name. Often I am sorrowful over the foolishness of my actions. The Apostle Paul wrote that there is a “godly sorrow that brings repentance” (2 Cor. 10:7). When I know I have sinned, I humbly admit that my sinful behavior is out of step with my new nature and identity in Him, and I ask Him to help me rest in His completed work.

Now here comes the best part! After agreeing with God about my sin, I begin thanking Him for the fact that this sinful act was already forgiven at the cross. Understanding these realities has literally transformed my practice of confession, changing the experience from a guilt-ridden begging session into a dynamic, worshipful encounter in which my conscious mind (and behavior) is realigned with the grace and truth of Jesus.

So yes! By all means confess your sin to God! Agree with Him about sin and everything else He has revealed. But don’t think of confession as a means of obtaining something that Jesus Christ died “once for all” to secure for you. Remember that confession is about humility and the ongoing renewal of the mind process – and never about getting something from God that is already yours in abundance through the finished work of Christ.

If you are a believer in Christ, you are NEVER out of fellowship with God. Fellowship is an identity issue, meaning that you now share "all things in common" with God as a joint-heir with Christ (Rom. 8:17)! This never has been and never will be based upon your behavioral performance and is not something that you must confess sin in order to have reinstated! Because of Christ, you are always clean and God is always close!

Objection #5: Hyper-Grace Preachers are Against God’s Law

Some take this claim so far as to suggest that we even want to throw out or ignore the Old Testament. Wow! What wild imaginations these accusers have! The truth is that we are by no means antinomian (against the law of God), nor do we disbelieve or avoid teaching the Old Testament. Most of us actually esteem the power and purpose of God’s law so highly that we understand grace to be the only way of escape from its impossibly stringent demands.

Paul shared in Romans 3 and elsewhere that God’s purposes for the law were two-fold:

1) to stop our self-righteous excuses, minimizations and justifications of our sin and 2) to reveal our desperate need of a Savior by grace through faith. The entire thrust of Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount was to bury His very self-righteous audience under the weight of one inescapable reality: “Unless your righteousness surpasses that of the world’s most stringent law-keepers (the Pharisees and teachers of the law) you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matt.5:20).

That Jesus came to “fulfill” the Law (Matt. 5:17) means that He came to keep its demands perfectly because He knew that we couldn’t and wouldn’t. He fulfilled the stringent demands of the Law on our behalf as our Substitute so that His record of perfection could be credited to our spiritual account when we received Him by grace through faith. He did what you and I couldn’t and wouldn’t, and the Sermon on the Mount is a damning indictment of anyone who thinks they can measure up to God’s standards on their own effort.

And have you heard of this “cheap grace” idea? Sometimes the term is ripped off and redefined from Bonhoeffer’s vocabulary to insinuate that the hyper-grace movement has cheapened the grace of God by making it “too easy” for people to attain. After all, we live in a world where there’s no such thingas a free lunch, right? We certainly don't believe or teach that grace is cheap. It cost Jesus His life! But we DO agree with the New Testament that His grace is FREE to those who receive it freely by faith.

The truth of the matter is that hyper-grace teachers are not guilty of promoting cheap grace at all. Rather, our critics are often guilty of promoting cheap Law! Far from being anti-law, WE are the ones who esteem God's Law so highly as to conclude that there is no escape from its condemnation apart from faith in Christ alone! The Law is an all-or-nothing proposition. To stumble in just one aspect of keeping it is the equivalent of breaking all of it (James 2:10). The Law is a ministry of death and condemnation (2 Cor. 3:7-11). The Law is not the bad guy, however. It simply points out who the bad guys are (the world, the flesh and the devil)! The Law is holy and pure and designed to show us what sin is (Rom.7:7).

But living under Law cannot save, change or transform a single heart – only grace can! And this is why we are so adamant about never mixing a law-based mentality with a grace-based mentality toward spiritual life or growth under God’s New Covenant. The New Testament repeatedly affirms that our salvation and sanctification are either completely by law or completely by grace, but cannot be a result of mixing the two.

Conclusion:

With all of that said, the idea of trying to somehow “balance grace” with anything is ludicrous according to both Scripture and plain reason. Grace, by definition, is radically IMBALANCED in our favor! If it were not, it would cease to be grace on that very basis! The term “hyper-grace” is far from insulting! It is in fact the ONLY kind of grace taught, supportedand promoted in the Bible.

God understands that His grace is open to the possibility of abuse by those who might misunderstand it. He understands that people may take His grace for granted or even at times misrepresent it as a license to sin. Paul addressed those concerns very clearly, as did Jesus and the other New Testament writers.

However, the fact that grace is open to misinterpretation and the possibility of abuse does not give us license to water it down, explain it away or cheapen its glory by adding a single measure of law into it as an attempt to stay "balanced." There is nothing balanced whatsoever about the grace of God! We rejoice in that! We celebrate that! We proclaim that without apology!

May God reveal His hyper-grace more clearly to you in the days ahead! Feel free to chime in with your thoughts below.

(For a more exhaustive treatment of this critical subject, check out the book "The Hyper-Grace Gospel" by my friend Paul Ellis )

Why I am Hyper-Grace: Answering Five Common Objections

eternally-gratefull · Jul 20, 2016

JGIG said:

I think we all, if we really think about it, Have a past. At one point on our lives, We were enemies of God, We were in the world system (cosmos or satan's domain) We thought we were our own God. and we thought we were ok.

Something brought us to repentance.Something brought us to realize our status as enemies of God, Separated from God by our sin self righteousness, Something told us deep inside, we needed to be saved from this "state" of being enemies of God and alienated from him, to trust him to save us, adopt us as his children, and bring us into right standing with him.

for some people it was hitting rock bottom, for others is was a long term commitment of God showing them through others his love and his offer of forgiveness. Most of us probably someplace in between.

If someone does not see their past, or have a past they are horrified about which brought a change (repent) then I wonder if they had a change at all.. And are not still in the world..

PeterJens · Jul 20, 2016

JGIG - Your post is the idea of pharisee and Hyper-grace believer, as if they are polarised.

Your response is issues of the heart, being the same on the inside as the outside do not matter to you.

But this is the gospel. You obviously do not see this, or know it, which means your faith is this surface
survival reality.

Christians talk about skin deep christians and those of the heart. With all your indepth analysis of faith,
I hope you would know this.

Slandered you? The interesting thing for me is you are offended, yet I would expect nothing else if you
were on the otherside of the divide. Why are you upset? Why are you offended?

And emotional problems? We all have emotional issues, that is why sin has such a hold.
It is peoples denial and letting love in, repenting, confessing, getting the light in, letting yourself feel,
loving who you are, letting God minister to you, is the beginning of being remade.

The whole Hyper-Grace movement is based on this failure within and appeals to those who have
never found resolution within their faith to date. But it does not have to be so.

Walking the way of Jesus is dangerous, you loose your life to gain an eternal one.
I would ask you, have you ever given up your life and found one in Christ?

JGIG · Jul 20, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

Here is something we all can learn to repent from as the Holy Spirit reveals this truth to us. This is a copy of a post from FreeNChrist from an old thread. Thank you.

Quote:

You may have harnessed the energy of the flesh in an otherwise quite genuine desire to honor the Lord Jesus in your life. The flesh, which has its origin in Satan, will go along with you; to survive, it is quite prepared to engage in every form of Christian activity, even though this may seem to honor Christ.

The flesh will sing in the choir, teach Sunday school, preside at a deacons’ meeting, preach from the pulpit, organize an evangelistic crusade, go to Bible college, volunteer for the mission field, and a thousand other things, all of which may in themselves be otherwise legitimate, if only it can keep its neck out of the noose.

The flesh will threaten, shout, strut, domineer, sulk, plot, creep, beg, plead, or sob, whatever the situation may demand in the interests of its own survival. By any and all means it will seek to cause every Christian to live by his own strength instead of by the power and grace of the Lord Jesus, and to conclude that doing so is actually a good thing!

The characteristic of the spiritually immature is that they are unable to discern between good and evil (Hebrews 5:13-14), and the baby Christian, like the foolish Galatians, “having begun in the Spirit” still tries to be “made perfect by the flesh” (Galatians 3:3).

We must be particularly patient with those whose lack of understanding allows a genuine love for the Lord Jesus to be satisfied with, and sometimes to be quite enthusiastic about, Christian activities involving means and methods which are heavily contaminated by the flesh. These are more deserving of instruction than rebuke, for they are still in their spiritual babyhood.

.....The flesh will seek to produce the most plausible arguments in justification of its own illegitimate activities, even though these activities are only what the Bible calls “dead works” (Hebrews 6:1; 9:14) and not the “good works” which are truly the work of God.

“Good works” are those that have their origin in Jesus Christ, as Christ’s activity is released through your body because you present it to Him as a living sacrifice. You do this only by faith that expresses total dependence, as opposed to Adamic independence."

Major Ian Thomas: The Way Of The Flesh; from The Indwelling Life of Christ

So worth repeating . . . regrets that I cannot read through and 'like' and give reps to every excellent post that my brothers and sisters are bringing as they seek to build up the Body of Christ and spur Her on to maturity!

Well done, all! So encouraged by you all who continually point to Christ as our Source for the Fruit that flows in our lives!

-JGIG

JGIG · Jul 20, 2016

eternally-gratefull said:

For me, receiving Christ at age 8, it was a very simple choice.

The Gospel was presented clearly and simply to me, and I understood that Christ did what I could never hope to accomplish, and that I was invited to enter into what He had done on my behalf by faith - believing in Him. So I did!

Have I had ups and downs in my walk with Him? Of course, but overall, I've had a pretty darn stable relationship with God in Christ - He showing His faithfulness all along the way, even when I was messing up.

Repentance for me has been the changing of my mind and heart to align more and more with the simplicity of the Gospel - back to that childlike faith that brought me to Christ in the first place, relying on Him and thanking Him moment by moment as I walk this life's path. In that process, I'm learning more and more to love and serve others along the way, drawing the Lost into His Kingdom, even if what I do is just a piece to their puzzle as God draws them.

Not everyone has to have a big, dramatic conversion story. For some of us, we came to Christ as children, grew up (often exposed to all manners of theological opinions and bents), and then, maturing more and more in Christ, came back to that childlike trust in Him and His Grace.

-JGIG

PeterJens · Jul 20, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

I think I understand the audience here. The reason why the above posting meant nothing to me is
not because I am blind to doing things for God to earn credit, but that is not why I do anything.
I go to an extreme some might say, and only do things because I feel called to it.

The article just says the "flesh", and says it is founded in Satan.
It then links this motivation to christian activity, and condemns it.
Then says the immature cannot tell evil from good.

It exploits your guilt from your past, and questions whether you should have done anything.
Sounds a lot like Satan questioning whether you know what bringing Praise and Honour to our
King is all about. It is about abundance, enthusiasm, doing everything with a good heart, overflowing
joy and thanks to God for the privilege of being alive.

You call the article tremendous, fantastic, but it is just condemnation through and through.
And the condemnation is not about sinful behaviour, but undermining your reasons for ministry.

How easily you listen to the enemy. How simple is it to condemn yourself and your past failures
when you were witnessing and bringing Glory to Christ, in your weakness and failure.

Are you this simple to deceive, have you left the love given you and which you hold highly, to
dash it at the first opportunity? His name is glorious, and everything we do in His name brings
glory and honour to Him because we are His people, the work of His hands. Amen

JGIG · Jul 20, 2016

PeterJens said:

JGIG - Your post is the idea of pharisee and Hyper-grace believer, as if they are polarised.

Your response is issues of the heart, being the same on the inside as the outside do not matter to you.

But this is the gospel. You obviously do not see this, or know it, which means your faith is this surface
survival reality.

Christians talk about skin deep christians and those of the heart. With all your indepth analysis of faith,
I hope you would know this.

Slandered you? The interesting thing for me is you are offended, yet I would expect nothing else if you
were on the otherside of the divide. Why are you upset? Why are you offended?

And emotional problems? We all have emotional issues, that is why sin has such a hold.
It is peoples denial and letting love in, repenting, confessing, getting the light in, letting yourself feel,
loving who you are, letting God minister to you, is the beginning of being remade.

The whole Hyper-Grace movement is based on this failure within and appeals to those who have
never found resolution within their faith to date. But it does not have to be so.

Walking the way of Jesus is dangerous, you loose your life to gain an eternal one.
I would ask you, have you ever given up your life and found one in Christ?

Not biting, Peter.

Now you're asserting that I've never been saved to begin with? Really? Simply more slander.

As I've said before, I've posted enough here that I'm content for God and the reader to judge between us.

-JGIG

PeterJens · Jul 20, 2016

A word of warning

"The spiritually immature cannot discern between good and evil"

Anyone who teaches this is denying the work of the Holy Spirit in a believer.
The reason we come to faith is because we can discern Christ is good and we are sinners in
need of faith and communion with Him, so that our sins can be forgiven and we can walk in
righteousness and purity.

A more accurate statement would be the christians who are jaded with a faith that in their
lives has failed them, can no longer tell the difference between good and evil.

Grace777x70 · Jul 20, 2016

JGIG said:

We can all see the "difference" about what is being said....don't give it another thought... all is well!!!

But unfortunately sometimes we just need to put Romans 16:17 into action.

gb9 · Jul 20, 2016

JGIG said:

you don't have to respond to peter. he will tell you what you believe, what you think, even if you are saved or not!!! lol

maybe one day he could focus his thoughts on learning and meditating on the Biblical definition of sin, which is missing the mark, falling short of a standard, knowing to do good and not doing so. it is hard to get repentance right if one does not properly identify what sin actually is.

PeterJens · Jul 20, 2016

JGIG said:

My friend, this is not a dispute. How can it be a question of doubt?
How can a christian not say, amen, my heart is the same inside as outside?

Your very act as seeing me as an enemy, and this observation as a challenge says enough.
It is not for me to say who is saved and who is not. I am just sharing spiritual realities of walking
with Christ, what it means to have a pure heart, to walk so you are not defiled by your reactions.

You have taken my point as a slander. Jesus wants you to open up and let Him in, so He can heal
you, make you whole, work His glorious purposes to His kingdom. In this confused spiritual world many
know the words, talk the talk yet have locked their hearts so closed, the Lord does not come in.

PeterJens · Jul 20, 2016

All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
Matt 5:37

Being the same on the inside and the outside is what it means to walk with Christ.
It takes time, a lot of healing, building, growing etc.

Repentance, confession and faith are the key driving issues, linked to love of Jesus
and obedience.

But until you truly have met Jesus this engine does not begin.

The reaction many are giving, implies they have begun the walk but the roots have
not gone very deep.

eternally-gratefull · Jul 20, 2016

JGIG said:

For me, receiving Christ at age 8, it was a very simple choice.

The Gospel was presented clearly and simply to me, and I understood that Christ did what I could never hope to accomplish, and that I was invited to enter into what He had done on my behalf by faith - believing in Him. So I did!

Have I had ups and downs in my walk with Him? Of course, but overall, I've had a pretty darn stable relationship with God in Christ - He showing His faithfulness all along the way, even when I was messing up.

Repentance for me has been the changing of my mind and heart to align more and more with the simplicity of the Gospel - back to that childlike faith that brought me to Christ in the first place, relying on Him and thanking Him moment by moment as I walk this life's path. In that process, I'm learning more and more to love and serve others along the way, drawing the Lost into His Kingdom, even if what I do is just a piece to their puzzle as God draws them.

Not everyone has to have a big, dramatic conversion story. For some of us, we came to Christ as children, grew up (often exposed to all manners of theological opinions and bents), and then, maturing more and more in Christ, came back to that childlike trust in Him and His Grace.

-JGIG

Yes, the childlike faith.. As children.. That should be the root of our spiritual lives. Trusting God in all things, as a child, who has to rely on the parent..

PeterJens · Jul 20, 2016

A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.
Luke 6:45

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
Gal 5:22-25

Jesus can cleanse and work through the issues deep in your soul which need resolving.
The principle is simple.
Knowing you are loved by Christ, accepted and saved in His love,
Repent of sin that He brings to mind
Confess it and pray for all concerned
Accept the forgiveness Christ has provided

God will build in you a whole new set of reactions and ways of
handling things for His glory. Have faith in Him and His cross, He
did not die in vain or is not capable of reaching out to you in this
time of need.

ladylynn · Jul 20, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

Sometimes the meaning of a word like "repentance" gets hi-jacked from our religious teachings and when we hear something different - it upsets us.

People that go to websites that are against a certain ministry or teaching are getting their information from one side which is usually not presenting the truth. The accusation that people that believe in grace ( which some use the term in a derogatory way and call it hyper-grace ) that it is heresy - is simply complete foolishness and it is not based on any semblance of the truth and is an out-right falsehood.

Let's look at it by what the people that believe in the grace of Christ "actually" do say. Here is a post from one of our members outlining what is this "hyper-grace".

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...conditional-unconditional-20.html#post2633067

What About ‘Hyper-Grace’???

Posted on February 26, 2014 by JGIG
What About ‘Hyper-Grace’???

Over the past year or so (starting in 2013), a manufactured label, ‘Hyper-Grace’, has been made popular and applied to the Gospel of Grace. Personally, I embrace the term, because in my opinion, the Living God coming to Earth as a man to die for oursin and bear the judgement due us, and then to give those who believe the gift of Righteousness and New Life in order to reconcile us to Himself is a pretty Hyper Grace!

That aside, not all believers embrace the term, and many are uncomfortable with the concept of pure Grace. Rather those who mix Law and Grace use the term as aderogatory label, on which they pile false accusations about what the Gospel of Grace is and how those who walk in Grace live their lives.

A main instigator in applying the Hyper-Grace label to Grace-embracing believers is Dr. Michael Brown. Understand that Dr. Brown is a respected theologian, and many take what he says quite seriously, seeing him as a credible source sounding a valid alarm – “Christians are seeing Grace as a license to sin!”,“Hyper-Grace teachings are leading to ‘grace horror stories!’” and the hyperbolic like.

You can do a search with Dr. Brown’s name and ‘Hyper-Grace’ and get a number of video teachings and interviews that he’s done on the subject, as well as an assortment of articles regarding the Hyper-Grace label/concept. Note the ‘tabloidesque’ flavor to his interviews with Sid Roth, and the unbridled discussion about how this ‘hyper-grace’ can (and in their opinion does) lead to the loss of salvation.

How do you avoid losing your salvation?

By not sinning, of course!

How do you keep from sinning?

By keeping laws/commandments/rules . . . whatever the circle of like-minded folks you surround yourself with deems appropriate as the Biblical standard.

And if you do sin?

Repeated confession and repentance to God for sins that, according to their theology, God will hold against you if you don’t!

This of course, is contrary to contextual Scriptures (John 3:16-18, Romans 5, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19, 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1-2 for starters).

Many of the resources available on the Audio and Text Resources page here at JGIG refute the ‘Hyper-Grace’ hype, giving a Biblical defense for the Gospel of Grace.

Rob Rufus actually recorded a teaching entitled, ‘A Biblical Defense of the Gospel of Grace‘ several years before Dr. Brown made the ‘Hyper-Grace’ label popular. A video version of the teaching can be viewed, as well:

Paul Ellis, author at the site, Escape to Reality, author of The Gospel in Ten Words, and The Gospel in Twenty Questions (links also in the left sidebar below), took the issue head on in “Confronting the Error of Hyper-Grace” – a response to Michael Brown, which garnered a few hundred comments in a good, lively discussion. One more (of many) good articles found at his site in line with what we’re discussing here: Confession, Conviction, Confusion!

When Dr. Brown’s book on ‘Hyper-Grace’ came out, D.R. Silva put together a good resource rebutting the common arguments against Grace. Silva builds a solid defense for the Gospel of Grace in about 68 pages, whereas Brown’s book spends 304 pages trying to refute the Gospel of Grace and expound on its ‘dangers’.

D.R. Silva does reference Dr. Brown in his book, but I think it’s important to note that Hyper-Grace: The Dangerous Doctrine of a Happy God is not primarily a refutation of Hyper-Grace: Exposing the Dangers of the Modern Grace Message (dangerous stuff, that Grace of God!!!), but rather a Biblical defense of the Grace position, taking on the common arguments/accusations leveled by those who mischaracterize the Grace position.‘Grace is good, But . . . !’ should have been the title for Dr. Brown’s book. A good audio by Rob Rufus, a teaching recorded several years ago, is available with a similar title: Grace is Good – No Buts!

Edited to add 4/7/14:
Paul Ellis has published a book entitled, “The Hyper-Grace Gospel: A Response to Michael Brown and Those Opposed to the Modern Grace Message“, where he also provides an outline of the content, which systematically addresses the false perceptions of the Gospel of Grace as well as responds to specific assertions made by Dr. Brown. Ellis puts together a definitive, clear presentation first and foremost of the Gospel of Grace. Highly recommended:

A good video review of D.R. Silva’s book can be found here: Book Review “Hyper Grace – the Dangerous Doctrine of a Happy God”

So if someone warns you of the ‘dangers’ of ‘Hyper-Grace’, the Audio and Text Resources, Video Resources, and The Gospel pages have lots of materials to support the Biblical Gospel of Grace, and this article has given you a few specific resources (click on the embedded links) to help you defend the Gospel of Grace with confidence and good humor. [Added 5/4/14 – And more good humor.]
And Grace \o/..

Thank you for posting this Grace777. JGIG what a blessing to my heart to read this morning!! You are an amazing writer sister. While reading the posts here., the differences are so stark that the power of the written words and the use of them for good shows out like a beacon. What a tool! Write on and on sister JGIG and be encouraged your labor is not in vain here. I pray many many people read these words and learn the truth for the on going message of Gospel of Jesus Christ to go out and many be saved.

I was thinking that for the years I've been on CC and the times I've questioned if my financial support is wise., reading posts and links such as yours and the other one I'm about to "post quick reply" to would make all my questions dissolve. I am truly blessed to be associated with believers like you who expound and explain and re-explain for the sake of those who need it the truth of the gospel of grace. I would never have met you guys and been uplifted each day if we didn't meet here on CC.

So for all the times it was a trial and all the times it was a blessing I'm thankful for CC and the opportunity to meet other Christians from all over who are brothers and sisters in Christ and who share and preach and teach the truth of the gospel of grace and truth that Jesus brought. Much love to you guys from someone who was healed by the power of His love and grace.

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