the truth in the words of paul...
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go with all the scripture man not just what you agree with lol if you don't agree with whats written in Gods word, the change is yours to make so what about all the other 100s of scriptures? that clearly say living for sin will leave you with no inheritance? no eternal life? are those scriptures all irrelevant because paul referred to the church as called to be saints and sanctified? in those same verses he says wrongdoers will not inherit Gods kingdom. is that unconditional salvation to you? hes saying you are called to be saints, you are not allowed to be a sinner anyomore. that's pauls message man. your new and clean no lonmger bound, now go serve Jesus with all of your heart, BUT if you do not serve Jesus what happens?
I believe we have to differentiate between "going to heaven to be with the Lord " salvation and - "being saved from the things that can destroy us here while being on this earth."
Scripture uses the same Greek word - " salvation, saved " = wholeness, preservation, keep safe, deliverance, make well - for both being saved from things in this life and for going to be with the Lord for eternity.
If we don't understand this difference we will continually be mis-applying scriptures that talk about "being saved here in this life from things" and "going to be with the Lord".
There is eternal salvation and there is salvation from temporal things while on this earth. Confuse the two and you end up with a mixed up message of self-effort for going to heaven and only the blood of Jesus does that.
Jesus is either your Savior for going to be in heaven with Him or you are your own savior by helping Him. One is by grace through faith - the other is works-righteousness.
Scripture uses the same Greek word - " salvation, saved " = wholeness, preservation, keep safe, deliverance, make well - for both being saved from things in this life and for going to be with the Lord for eternity.
If we don't understand this difference we will continually be mis-applying scriptures that talk about "being saved here in this life from things" and "going to be with the Lord".
There is eternal salvation and there is salvation from temporal things while on this earth. Confuse the two and you end up with a mixed up message of self-effort for going to heaven and only the blood of Jesus does that.
Jesus is either your Savior for going to be in heaven with Him or you are your own savior by helping Him. One is by grace through faith - the other is works-righteousness.
I hate to say it, but this guy's salvation may be at stake if he's not trusting solely in the blood of Jesus Christ instead of his works. That's adding to the gospel in which Paul preached. I pray that he sees the light and liberty a believer has in Christ to serve Him out of love and not out of necessity for salvation's sake. I know we don't always agree, but thank you for your diligence in the true gospel of Christ, in that, we do agree.
T
I think it's just a case of mis-understanding as the works-based mindset is a deception and is the dominant teaching in the last 40 years too. All of our minds need to be renewed the awesome truth that is in our Lord's salvation.
They all say that "works doesn't save us" because mentally they know Eph 2:8-9 is true but it's in the "doing of things to maintain righteousness" that gets them caught and in truth they violate Eph. 2:8-9
amen brother..we are both in total agreement and solid on the true gospel grace of Christ through faith only for salvation and that His blood was enough to purchase our redemption. It is paid in full in the Father's eyes.
They all say that "works doesn't save us" because mentally they know Eph 2:8-9 is true but it's in the "doing of things to maintain righteousness" that gets them caught and in truth they violate Eph. 2:8-9
amen brother..we are both in total agreement and solid on the true gospel grace of Christ through faith only for salvation and that His blood was enough to purchase our redemption. It is paid in full in the Father's eyes.
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Hmm...........Grace:
You said:
They all say that "works doesn't save us" because mentally they know Eph 2:8-9 is true but it's in the "doing of things to maintain righteousness" that gets them caught and in truth they violate Eph. 2:8-9
Did you cut that passage of Scripture a bit short there? Why? Verses 8 and 9 are only PART of what Paul was teaching. Here is the whole thought/lesson he was teaching.
8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 .) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 .) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
When people exclude verse 10 as it it doesn't even exist, it does not reflect well on their theological ideology. Should we not give consideration to all of the Scripture? I know verse 10 causes problems for some ideologies, BUT it is Scripture, and it IS Truth.
You said:
They all say that "works doesn't save us" because mentally they know Eph 2:8-9 is true but it's in the "doing of things to maintain righteousness" that gets them caught and in truth they violate Eph. 2:8-9
Did you cut that passage of Scripture a bit short there? Why? Verses 8 and 9 are only PART of what Paul was teaching. Here is the whole thought/lesson he was teaching.
8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 .) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 .) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
When people exclude verse 10 as it it doesn't even exist, it does not reflect well on their theological ideology. Should we not give consideration to all of the Scripture? I know verse 10 causes problems for some ideologies, BUT it is Scripture, and it IS Truth.
The reason why I didn't include verse 10 in my use of Eph. 2:8-9 because it had nothing to do with the works that follow a life filled with Christ in our new creation in Him. I should have just said "We are saved by grace through faith" instead of adding the works.
My purpose with Eph 2:8-9 in that particular post was simply to show that people can make "mental assent" to scriptures but in reality do not agree with them because their other words contradict what they gave "mental assent" to in the first place.
Do you understand what I mean?
I hope that explains why I didn't continue on and quote a whole other bunch of scriptures with what I posted. They are not needed. In order to give "consideration" for all scripture I would have to quote half the HT to get the complete over all perspective of things. That would not be prudent and the situation did not need to have any more scripture added unto it.
My purpose with Eph 2:8-9 in that particular post was simply to show that people can make "mental assent" to scriptures but in reality do not agree with them because their other words contradict what they gave "mental assent" to in the first place.
Do you understand what I mean?
I hope that explains why I didn't continue on and quote a whole other bunch of scriptures with what I posted. They are not needed. In order to give "consideration" for all scripture I would have to quote half the HT to get the complete over all perspective of things. That would not be prudent and the situation did not need to have any more scripture added unto it.
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Ignoring Ephesians 2:10 claiming only Ephesians 2:8 is like those who claim John 3:16 and ignore John 3:19. Context and clarity are often just a few verses away - there is no 'one verse theology. Likewise Galatians 5:19-24 contrasting in the same breath condemnation and righteousness.
Two salvations? Gnosticism deceives into thinking we can get away with things in this life by using money or power or knowledge or manipulating and using others - such as immigrants, the poor, the children, the material and worldly God's of popularity and fame and prestige. Solomon affirmed the concept that the rich could buy salvation but both he and his father were clear they could lose the people, lose the nation in so doing. Each generation of falseness see the coming demise - even the demons see and tremble.
I encourage you - put away the fishing pole and become a Fisher of men
Two salvations? Gnosticism deceives into thinking we can get away with things in this life by using money or power or knowledge or manipulating and using others - such as immigrants, the poor, the children, the material and worldly God's of popularity and fame and prestige. Solomon affirmed the concept that the rich could buy salvation but both he and his father were clear they could lose the people, lose the nation in so doing. Each generation of falseness see the coming demise - even the demons see and tremble.
I encourage you - put away the fishing pole and become a Fisher of men
You missed my whole purpose for the post which was that we can make "mental assent" to scriptures but in essence we deny them and contradict them with other things that we say. It had nothing in reality to do with verse 10 in Eph 2.
In hindsight I should have just used the term "saved by grace"....
I always quote verse 10 when I talk in terms of salvation by grace through faith alone. - that this salvation will manifest itself in good works that God has ordained for us to walk in.
You have barked up the wrong tree here but that is easy to do in these types of forums as things can get mis-construed. It's understandable. No harm done. Bless you!
In hindsight I should have just used the term "saved by grace"....
I always quote verse 10 when I talk in terms of salvation by grace through faith alone. - that this salvation will manifest itself in good works that God has ordained for us to walk in.
You have barked up the wrong tree here but that is easy to do in these types of forums as things can get mis-construed. It's understandable. No harm done. Bless you!
I see what you are saying, however, unless verse 10 is quoted in conjunction with verses 8 and 9, or just verse 8, the true meaning of all three verses is lost. It is corrupted, in my opinion. I see too many people (maybe not you) who do this, and end up teaching an ideology based on what I call a Readers Digest Condensed version of Scripture. Unless people hear/read the REST OF THE STORY, they really are not receiving the true Gospel, and may well end up failing all understanding. Not much trouble to add verse 10 to 8 and 9, to assure that the true meaning of what Paul was teaching is revealed to all.
I agree but it had nothing to do with the purpose of my post. My purpose was not to talk about Eph 2:8-9 or 10. But to show how we can give "mental assent" to scriptures and yet deny them in our other words that contradict the truth of Eph.2. I could have used any scriptures.
My post had nothing to do in reality with Eph 2:8-9 or 10..it was just an illustration of a scripture that is often quoted that people give "mental assent" to. It had nothing to do with preaching the gospel.
As I said to someone else - when I am actually talking about Eph 2:8-10 to talk about those verses specifically and expand on them - I always talk about the good works that will manifest from a life with Christ within.
My post had nothing to do in reality with Eph 2:8-9 or 10..it was just an illustration of a scripture that is often quoted that people give "mental assent" to. It had nothing to do with preaching the gospel.
As I said to someone else - when I am actually talking about Eph 2:8-10 to talk about those verses specifically and expand on them - I always talk about the good works that will manifest from a life with Christ within.
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Ok...........but, you sure confused the wee elephant.........sigh.........
He be like.......hmm......
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He be like.......hmm......
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LOL....I love that picture.. "The Elephant Thinker"....you two are almost identical twins.
yep the church is one and every word of Jesus is for them. but, I can work with you on this one you yourself just said go with paul so okay
galatians 5:19-24 "The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."
pauls words v 6:7-9 " do not be deceived a man reaps what he sows, 8The one who sows to please his flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; but the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not grow weary in well doing, for in due time we will reap a harvest, if we do not give up.…
pauls words
ephesians 5:5 "For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a person is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."
pauls words
romans 8:12-13 "12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation, but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
pauls words...
colossians 3:5-6 "5Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires, and greed, which is idolatry. 6Because of these, the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience.…
pauls words...
1 Corinthians 6:9 "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to nor perform homosexual acts,..ect"
pauls words...
this is a sample of what the gog omits and claims paul has all the authority and teaches a "conditionless" or lawless Gospel, he does not in any way teach that a Christians behavior has no part in determining their salvation. its just not what Paul teaches. now someone will go find some verses about grace, and somehow all of these will mean nothing because romans 8:1 lol or just believe...the finished work!!!
Paul is a servant of Jesus Christ the King, all the authority is Jesus in scripture, yet, paul just taught the same principles as Jesus in different words. pauls writings are easily seen as a free pass just say you believe and ur in. thats just not what is there tho. Paul teaches Jesus did all for you, now live your life for Jesus, if you do not, you can also expect death as all who do not repent should expect. and yes repentance means to turn away from sin and stop the actions. its basic teaching. repent, be baptizedect...
Hebrews 5:11-6"We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil. We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, instruction about cleansing rites, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And God permitting, we will do so."
Hebrews writers words.......but does the doctrine of gog discount whats actually there in preference of " all unconditional doesn't matter what I do I'm saved" thats just a false doctrine....im glad honestly so thankful that God has given me understanding as he has many others to know good and evil
galatians 5:19-24 "The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."
pauls words v 6:7-9 " do not be deceived a man reaps what he sows, 8The one who sows to please his flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; but the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not grow weary in well doing, for in due time we will reap a harvest, if we do not give up.…
pauls words
ephesians 5:5 "For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a person is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."
pauls words
romans 8:12-13 "12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation, but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
pauls words...
colossians 3:5-6 "5Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires, and greed, which is idolatry. 6Because of these, the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience.…
pauls words...
1 Corinthians 6:9 "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to nor perform homosexual acts,..ect"
pauls words...
this is a sample of what the gog omits and claims paul has all the authority and teaches a "conditionless" or lawless Gospel, he does not in any way teach that a Christians behavior has no part in determining their salvation. its just not what Paul teaches. now someone will go find some verses about grace, and somehow all of these will mean nothing because romans 8:1 lol or just believe...the finished work!!!
Paul is a servant of Jesus Christ the King, all the authority is Jesus in scripture, yet, paul just taught the same principles as Jesus in different words. pauls writings are easily seen as a free pass just say you believe and ur in. thats just not what is there tho. Paul teaches Jesus did all for you, now live your life for Jesus, if you do not, you can also expect death as all who do not repent should expect. and yes repentance means to turn away from sin and stop the actions. its basic teaching. repent, be baptizedect...
Hebrews 5:11-6"We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil. We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, instruction about cleansing rites, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And God permitting, we will do so."
Hebrews writers words.......but does the doctrine of gog discount whats actually there in preference of " all unconditional doesn't matter what I do I'm saved" thats just a false doctrine....im glad honestly so thankful that God has given me understanding as he has many others to know good and evil
nope. ive said always, you don't have to be perfect, you have to be in obedience to Jesus, not my words tho, His words. you have to repent of sin, jesus words, pauls words, johns words, peters words. The cross is more than just forgiveness. it also brings isreals God to the entire World. before Jesus it was exclusive, now anyone who chooses to follow Jesus belongs to God.
you guys hear obedience and it shakes the whole false doctrine. the gog has to omit all of the obedience is necessary teachings because the gog says its unconditional, it is not. if you do not Love Jesus in return for all He is and has done , you would then be receiving Gods grace in vein. to love Jesus in HIS OWN WORDS is to obey His teachings. there is plenty of forgiveness for those who are His followers, but His way. forgive others and He will forgive you, be merciful and receive mercy, give to others and you will receive from God. in Christ, the measure you use will be returned to you. or " do unto others" if you stumble and you will as you follow Jesus teachings, you acknowledge you are wrong, you repent and you press on toward the goal. you guys are the ones who twist things to make it fit unconditional, thats not what the word, Jesus, or even His servant paul taught.