the truth in the words of paul...

[followjesus]

Ignoring Ephesians 2:10 claiming only Ephesians 2:8 is like those who claim John 3:16 and ignore John 3:19. Context and clarity are often just a few verses away - there is no 'one verse theology. Likewise Galatians 5:19-24 contrasting in the same breath condemnation and righteousness.








Two salvations? Gnosticism deceives into thinking we can get away with things in this life by using money or power or knowledge or manipulating and using others - such as immigrants, the poor, the children, the material and worldly God's of popularity and fame and prestige. Solomon affirmed the concept that the rich could buy salvation but both he and his father were clear they could lose the people, lose the nation in so doing. Each generation of falseness see the coming demise - even the demons see and tremble.

I encourage you - put away the fishing pole and become a Fisher of men

that's good stuff there. the simplicity of this particular your saved regardless of how you live, is just " surely the forbidden fruit wont Kill you" its obviously the same exact false doctrine that was the original deception that caused mans death. even the health and wealth false doctrines, surely greed wont kill you, surely store up wealth , it means your blessed." all false doctrine is rooted and purposed to get someone who believes, to believe against what God has said clearly.

in the Garden, God said "when you eat this fruit, you will surely die."

paul reflects that with " of this you can be sure, no immoral, impure or greedy man - an I dolater- has any inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ and of God." this is Gods word reflected from eden to paul. and truly in every book in the bible its the same theme. Gods grace isn't a new thing, adam already knew Gods goodness and grace, he just chose to disobey what God had said, BECAUSE He was offered a deception. the deceoption "surely it wont kill you, it will make you like God"

a chriatian who sees the real Gospel and begins following and escaping from death hears " surely sin wont Kill you, finished work nothing you can do can harm your salvation" yet it is repeatedly taught to exhaustion through o.t. Jesus, and nt, that to live and act in the things described by paul and every other gospel writer as sin or the flesh or sinful nature will result in your death, and to live and act in the things taught that are righteousness or the spirit, those things will bring a harvest of eternal life, if you persevere in them.

the enemy is a simple one, he uses the only thing that is death " going against what Gods word has said is death." it will always be sin is death until sin and death are hrown into the lake of fire. sin is looking for servants as well and its servants will spend eternity with it, just as Jesus servants will spend eternity with Him. Gods word is not complex, its simplicity requires faith in what is written, rather than seeking ways to make it say what man wants it to say

 

[followjesus]

What your advocating is that the cross of Jesus Christ saves a person for the moment, but the believer's walk saves a person from that point forward. The salvation of Jesus Christ only saves a person momentarily at belief, but obedience saves a person for eternity. What bragging rights we have! What boasting! I, I, I, and me, me, me...

nope not at all. I'm saying the cross doesn't only forgive and doesn't then excuse future sin. that's what I'm saying. the cross is not even all of it, theres also the empty tomb that plays a part. the cross is a persons death to sin. that's what the cross is Jesus represents your sinful nature on the cross, condemned , crucified, dead. Jesus walking out of the tomb is the Christian who has been crucified through Jesus, the one coming out of the tomb is saved through the power of the resurrection....

the difference here is milk, and real food. there is a teaching for the mature about righteousness. Hebrews 5 11- ch 6. receiving Gods grace in vain is to accept it with no responsibility to honor the price He paid for us. we receive a great and wonderous gift of life in Jesus, it is not free though, it is exchanged for the worthless life of sin and death we possess before accepting His atonement. we give Him our sin on the cross, we receive His righteousness. its an axchange our worthless for His worth, our sin for His obedience, or death for His life. that's grace. I was a sinner bound to death and hell, by Grace, God forgave all my sins and gave me new eternal life IN EXCHANGE FOR MY SINFUL LIFE. that's true Grace. there was no way to earb=n that, no way to deserve a new life a new chance with all our debt wiped away, but important is this, its not going to happen again, mankinds sin was already taken away already atoned for, those who cling to it will follow where it goes and be bound to it eternally.

Those who cling to Jesus are bound to Him and will end up eternally where he is. its like today, people want their own version of Grace, the grace I just spoke of isn't enough, grace has to mean, " I have no responsibility to do what God clearly says I must do, if I listen to God then ive fallen from grace ect..ect... Grace is supposed to make people WANT to learn and do what they are told to do by God, simply because its good and tright and worthy and true.....the cross saves by killing Jesus for your sin. who in all of Creation could possibly take that as " I am not obligated to learn what Jesus who died for me actually said TO DO." whop would then find clear conscience in reading Jesus clear teachings that you don't just say hes lord and are saved, but you apply His teachings to life, but saying nope false its all what paul said in about 3 percent of His writings, forgwet Jesus commandments, forget all Paulk teaches about obedience having part in detern=mining eternal life or death forget james, john, peter all the ot all 4 gospels, its all romans 8 :1 its all saved by grace a gift I cant do any wrong I'm beyond punishment doesn't matter if I'm an adulterer, Jesus wasn't so I'm good to go, doesn't matter if I'm a thief, Jesus paid my penalty ect....that's just the serpent saying " surely it wont kill you , doesn't matter what you do, your in"

problem is its the same exact lie as in eden, just salled " the gospel of grace" and now instead of a serpent talking to us, its the popular worldly authors who have the doctrines that appeal to the sinner who wants to be able to freely taste that beautiful looking fruit.....issue is, its poison to the etrnal soul always will be

 

[followjesus]

Is there an answer in there somewhere?? Ahh, I see it now. So, IOW, what is written in Scripture for you, you think only applies to "others". Got it.

lol what is written in scripture is for all believers. is it not clear to you if romans 8:1 is all that applies then you need to OMIT all of the clear CONDITIONS taught by paul himself ( since the gog holds that hes somehow the authority over Jesus) even if a person wants to hold to paul, why do all of the teachings from paul saying "you must rid yourselves of all these actions or you will not inherit Gods kingdom" why are all the clear obedience is essential teachings of Paul disregarded in favor of the modern day teachers? are you saying only a few grace scriptures are for others or ? that's how a person can identify a false doctrine, when the teaching doesnt jive with the rest of what the person is teaching in Gods word ie paul. who taught saved by Grace, yet also taught " those who live acting in the sinful ACTIONS of the sinful nature have NO inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God" paul who reveals the grace that made all people clean, not just jews, but all nations who would believe in Jesus.


if paul CLEARLY stressed and teaches both of these doctrinal points, do we eliminate one for the other and call half his teaching right because it appears to have no condition? honestly the reason the gog SEEMS to have no condition upon the believer is that the ones who spread the false doctrine, omit all of the copnditions paul taught. paul the same who sais you are saved by grace through faith, taught the conditions of living the righteousness GIFTED to us by grace? why is the lesser amount of paul taken as absolute truth, yet the just as prevelant is taken as herecy and "self work" or self boasting? this doctrine of salvation assured regardless of the behavior is a lie. just like eating the fruit wont kill you was a lie. its just dressed differently. its part truth, just like in eden the fruit DID make them like God knowing good and evil, BUT that lie about sin not killing them ruined the truth that was distorted there. same with the gog. if you don't accept righteopusness, it ruins the truth of Grace for the obedience to Jesus that is eternal life.


I used to think, well maybe theyre just young Christians with no knowledge of whats in scripture, yet, the verses are plucked from between all of the essential doctrines that fit together with Grace, because the misteaching of grace, does not allow the rest of all the conditions , because oits mistaught as all that's written is unwarranted favor for YOU. it neglects the unwarranted favor we are COMMANDED to live in toward others whis=ch is OUR PART in the new covenant. a covenant is an agreement between 2 parties. its not gods grace to me now that's all there is, its God gave me everything even eternal life, do I live worthy now as I am COMMANDED by God to do? or do I just go teach people to say the sinners prayer and now they are saved no matter how they live in the world? if the doctrine taught Grace, for the sole purpose of bringing sinners to repentance and into obedience of Jesus, it wouldn't be false, but instead it opposes any condition placed upon the redeemed to serve their kings, its really anarchyby grace the way people teach it now days.

 

[John146]

nope not at all. I'm saying the cross doesn't only forgive and doesn't then excuse future sin. that's what I'm saying. the cross is not even all of it, theres also the empty tomb that plays a part. the cross is a persons death to sin. that's what the cross is Jesus represents your sinful nature on the cross, condemned , crucified, dead. Jesus walking out of the tomb is the Christian who has been crucified through Jesus, the one coming out of the tomb is saved through the power of the resurrection....

the difference here is milk, and real food. there is a teaching for the mature about righteousness. Hebrews 5 11- ch 6. receiving Gods grace in vain is to accept it with no responsibility to honor the price He paid for us. we receive a great and wonderous gift of life in Jesus, it is not free though, it is exchanged for the worthless life of sin and death we possess before accepting His atonement. we give Him our sin on the cross, we receive His righteousness. its an axchange our worthless for His worth, our sin for His obedience, or death for His life. that's grace. I was a sinner bound to death and hell, by Grace, God forgave all my sins and gave me new eternal life IN EXCHANGE FOR MY SINFUL LIFE. that's true Grace. there was no way to earb=n that, no way to deserve a new life a new chance with all our debt wiped away, but important is this, its not going to happen again, mankinds sin was already taken away already atoned for, those who cling to it will follow where it goes and be bound to it eternally.

Those who cling to Jesus are bound to Him and will end up eternally where he is. its like today, people want their own version of Grace, the grace I just spoke of isn't enough, grace has to mean, " I have no responsibility to do what God clearly says I must do, if I listen to God then ive fallen from grace ect..ect... Grace is supposed to make people WANT to learn and do what they are told to do by God, simply because its good and tright and worthy and true.....the cross saves by killing Jesus for your sin. who in all of Creation could possibly take that as " I am not obligated to learn what Jesus who died for me actually said TO DO." whop would then find clear conscience in reading Jesus clear teachings that you don't just say hes lord and are saved, but you apply His teachings to life, but saying nope false its all what paul said in about 3 percent of His writings, forgwet Jesus commandments, forget all Paulk teaches about obedience having part in detern=mining eternal life or death forget james, john, peter all the ot all 4 gospels, its all romans 8 :1 its all saved by grace a gift I cant do any wrong I'm beyond punishment doesn't matter if I'm an adulterer, Jesus wasn't so I'm good to go, doesn't matter if I'm a thief, Jesus paid my penalty ect....that's just the serpent saying " surely it wont kill you , doesn't matter what you do, your in"

problem is its the same exact lie as in eden, just salled " the gospel of grace" and now instead of a serpent talking to us, its the popular worldly authors who have the doctrines that appeal to the sinner who wants to be able to freely taste that beautiful looking fruit.....issue is, its poison to the etrnal soul always will be

Scripture speaks of rewards for the believer's service here on earth and the loss of rewards. What you are advocating is all believers will get all possible rewards because all believers must be in complete obedience. Why does Scripture tell us different?

1 Corinthians 3
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

2 Corinthians 5
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Speaking to believers, our labors will be judged, not for the sake of salvation, but for inheritance, rewards.

 

[followjesus]

Scripture speaks of rewards for the believer's service here on earth and the loss of rewards. What you are advocating is all believers will get all possible rewards because all believers must be in complete obedience. Why does Scripture tell us different?

1 Corinthians 3
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

2 Corinthians 5
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Speaking to believers, our labors will be judged, not for the sake of salvation, but for inheritance, rewards.

nope your adding to what I just said. complete or perfect obedience is NOT what I'm saying. I'm saying you need to accept that my role as a Christian is to obey learn from, follow Jesus. if I'm obeying Jesus teaching about forgiving others, I will be forgiven when o face Him like all of us will do, to give an account of what we did on earth when we became a Christian. do you know that paul didn't even judge Himself innocent? said he would face Jesus and Jesus would

1 Corinthians 4:3-5 "…3I care very little, however, if I am judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4My conscience is clear, but that does not vindicate me. It is the Lord who judges me. 5Therefore judge nothing before the proper time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.…


okay? whats said here ? the gog teaches your already approved, does it not? that you wont face judgement does it not? based on pauls teachings???? yet paul says my conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. he also says God will come to do the judging and give each person what they deserve, just like those last verses say according to what they have done while in the body, our deeds.

how bout Jesus ? " it is not those who call me lord lord who will be saved, but only those who DO THE WILL OF GOD."

or how about the unforgiving debtor? notice the last verse that says " this is how God will treat you unless you forgive your brother from the heart"

do you think that a Christian is required to forgive other people? and if they do not what happens according to Jesus who is the one who knows, he is the one returnoing is he not? in this parable the man goes in and is forgiven all his debt because of mercy, then ho goes out and wont forgive someone their debt, well, The King hears of this and is enraged calls the man back in and puts him in prison to be tortured. and then...."this is how God will treat all of you unless you forgive your brother from the heart."


do you see no condition upon the believer who received forgiveness here? or do you think its about being punished here on earth and your still saved from hell? what do you make of paul saying " you must rid yourselves of these things" is he saying just believe and Jesus will rid you of them? or is he saying YOU MUST REPENT OF SIN? or what about when he says " I warn you as I did before, those who live lijke this, in these actions, will not inherit Gods Kingdom?

or what about, "he who sows to please the spirit will from the spirit reap eternal life? does that say the person who doesn't sow for the spirit will reap eternal life? or just before that does it say whoever sows to please their sinful nature will reap destruction?

I have no desire to debate you on something that is so clear, you are free like anyone to believe anything you wish. ill go with the words of God

 

[Grace777x70]

If we continue to interpret scriptures without taking into consideration the work of Christ done on the cross then we are going to end up with a mix-up understanding and in effect we are mixing the old and new covenants.

Here are the very scriptures that give a word-for-word account of the real gospel of the grace of Christ - remember these are word-for-word accounts of the true gospel of the grace of Christ being preached.

If we need to forgive before we can receive God's forgiveness then this should be recorded. Paul never once mentioned this in all of his 13 epistles.

Here's Peter....shouldn't he have said "You need to forgive anyone first before you can receive God's forgiveness by the blood of Jesus"??

Acts 10:43 (NASB)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."


And the same thing for Paul - he didn't say 'You need to forgive first before we you can be forgiven by the blood of Jesus" ??


Acts 13:38 (NASB)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,

Or is it possible Jesus was talking about the law when He gave those words out for His disciples at the time they were still under law then? The New Covenant didn't come into effect until Jesus died and rose again to obtain our eternal forgiveness.

Here Paul says that forgiveness is all based on "according to the riches of His grace "..not if we forgive first.

Ephesians 1:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace.

We forgive now because we are already forgiven - it's a by-product of having a new heart - created in righteousness and holiness.

He who has been forgiven much - loves much.

 

[followjesus]

Scripture speaks of rewards for the believer's service here on earth and the loss of rewards. What you are advocating is all believers will get all possible rewards because all believers must be in complete obedience. Why does Scripture tell us different?

1 Corinthians 3
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

2 Corinthians 5
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Speaking to believers, our labors will be judged, not for the sake of salvation, but for inheritance, rewards.

also what other inheritance are you talking about that differs from eternal life? the rewards for selling possessions and giving to the poor? you think if I live in sin, I'm gonna lose my treasures in heaven? those rewards are for those who care for the needy by giving of themselves. their possessions. eternal life is the inheritance in its toitallity. there are things you receive here on earth blessings, protection ect based on obedience sure. you are speaking a lot of things that aren't really taught. theres no other inheritance other than eternal life.

matthew 25 "31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”


look here, what is thoier salvation based upon? who gets told come take your inheritance? is it those who acted upon His words? and what happened to those who " prophesied in his name, drocve out demons in his name ect? they obviously were believers they were in his name, yet, what they did not do for their fellow man, is the reason they go away to ETERNAL PUNISHMENT.


how does this one fit with no condition apart from just believe? kind of fits more with it is not those who call nme lord who will be saved, but those who DO the will of God, maybe that's me tho idk.......

 

[followjesus]

If we continue to interpret scriptures without taking into consideration the work of Christ done on the cross then we are going to end up with a mix-up understanding and in effect we are mixing the old and new covenants.

Here are the very scriptures that give a word-for-word account of the real gospel of the grace of Christ - remember these are word-for-word accounts of the true gospel of the grace of Christ being preached.

If we need to forgive before we can receive God's forgiveness then this should be recorded. Paul never once mentioned this in all of his 13 epistles.

Here's Peter....shouldn't he have said "You need to forgive anyone first before you can receive God's forgiveness by the blood of Jesus"??

Acts 10:43 (NASB)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."


And the same thing for Paul - he didn't say 'You need to forgive first before we you can be forgiven by the blood of Jesus" ??


Acts 13:38 (NASB)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,

Or is it possible Jesus was talking about the law when He gave those words out for His disciples at the time they were still under law then? The New Covenant didn't come into effect until Jesus died and rose again to obtain our eternal forgiveness.

Here Paul says that forgiveness is all based on "according to the riches of His grace "..not if we forgive first.

Ephesians 1:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace.

We forgive now because we are already forgiven - it's a by-product of having a new heart - created in righteousness and holiness.

He who has been forgiven much - loves much.

I read about 3 sentances here let me ask yopu one question so you can quit going back and forth, just a simple answer. do you think Jesus knew what He was saying? do you accept Jesus words bruce or are they only meant for Jews?

 

[followjesus]

If we continue to interpret scriptures without taking into consideration the work of Christ done on the cross then we are going to end up with a mix-up understanding and in effect we are mixing the old and new covenants.

Here are the very scriptures that give a word-for-word account of the real gospel of the grace of Christ - remember these are word-for-word accounts of the true gospel of the grace of Christ being preached.

If we need to forgive before we can receive God's forgiveness then this should be recorded. Paul never once mentioned this in all of his 13 epistles.

Here's Peter....shouldn't he have said "You need to forgive anyone first before you can receive God's forgiveness by the blood of Jesus"??

Acts 10:43 (NASB)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."


And the same thing for Paul - he didn't say 'You need to forgive first before we you can be forgiven by the blood of Jesus" ??


Acts 13:38 (NASB)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,

Or is it possible Jesus was talking about the law when He gave those words out for His disciples at the time they were still under law then? The New Covenant didn't come into effect until Jesus died and rose again to obtain our eternal forgiveness.

Here Paul says that forgiveness is all based on "according to the riches of His grace "..not if we forgive first.

Ephesians 1:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace.

We forgive now because we are already forgiven - it's a by-product of having a new heart - created in righteousness and holiness.

He who has been forgiven much - loves much.

I ask this because you have said you would NEVER omit Jesus words, and you hjave also said, everything pre cross doesn't apply to the church. clarify that for me so it kind of puts you on one place where you need to stay. rather than change from conversation to conversation. are the 4 gospels meant for Chgristians what do you say? don't need 100 grace scriptures just does it apply or no?

 

[Grace777x70]

or how about the unforgiving debtor? notice the last verse that says " this is how God will treat you unless you forgive your brother from the heart"

do you think that a Christian is required to forgive other people? and if they do not what happens according to Jesus who is the one who knows, he is the one returnoing is he not? in this parable the man goes in and is forgiven all his debt because of mercy, then ho goes out and wont forgive someone their debt, well, The King hears of this and is enraged calls the man back in and puts him in prison to be tortured. and then...."this is how God will treat all of you unless you forgive your brother from the heart."

As to the parable of the unforgiving debtor. Jesus said that they must forgive from their hearts. This is the disctinction here in this whole unforgiving debtor parable

We need to read all scripture in context of the finished work of Christ and what He did on the cross. To say that our sins are not forgiven in the believer after they cross is NOT the gospel.

We will forgive because we are in Christ now and have His nature in us - we need to have our minds renewed to this truth and we will walk in it.

Matt 18:35 says that God will not forgive unless you forgive from your heart.

This was Jesus giving them the law. Moses 2.0 as it shows their need for a Savior in order for Jesus to create in them a new heart that loves and forgives just like their Father does in Jesus.

Love always forgives - it's in our nature now because we are in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.

We have a new heart now - so we can't really have unforgiveness in our hearts anymore which is why Jesus said .."If you do not forgive from your heart" ....this is to expose their need for a new heart which always forgives.

Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

We love now from our new hearts in Christ and our hearts cannot sin. So Jesus's verse above in Matthew 18 would not apply to the person in Christ as it is impossible for them to have sin in their heart and to not forgive. We have the very nature of God inside us now - righteousness and holiness.

Romans 5:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

We love and forgive now from our new creations in Christ. It is our new nature in Christ in our inner man. We still have the flesh to deal with and that is done by walking after the Spirit and we will not walk after the desires of the flesh to fulfill "it's" desires.

1 John 5:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

1 John 3:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We need to preach and teach the true gospel of the grace of Christ so that the believer in Christ can grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus and walk out who they already are in their inner man - the new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.

 

[followjesus]

As to the parable of the unforgiving debtor. Jesus said that they must forgive from their hearts. This is the disctinction here in this whole unforgiving debtor parable

We need to read all scripture in context of the finished work of Christ and what He did on the cross. To say that our sins are not forgiven in the believer after they cross is NOT the gospel.

We will forgive because we are in Christ now and have His nature in us - we need to have our minds renewed to this truth and we will walk in it.

Matt 18:35 says that God will not forgive unless you forgive from your heart.

This was Jesus giving them the law. Moses 2.0 as it shows their need for a Savior in order for Jesus to create in them a new heart that loves and forgives just like their Father does in Jesus.

Love always forgives - it's in our nature now because we are in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.

We have a new heart now - so we can't really have unforgiveness in our hearts anymore which is why Jesus said .."If you do not forgive from your heart" ....this is to expose their need for a new heart which always forgives.

Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

We love now from our new hearts in Christ and our hearts cannot sin. So Jesus's verse above in Matthew 18 would not apply to the person in Christ as it is impossible for them to have sin in their heart and to not forgive. We have the very nature of God inside us now - righteousness and holiness.

Romans 5:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

We love and forgive now from our new creations in Christ. It is our new nature in Christ in our inner man. We still have the flesh to deal with and that is done by walking after the Spirit and we will not walk after the desires of the flesh to fulfill "it's" desires.

1 John 5:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

1 John 3:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We need to preach and teach the true gospel of the grace of Christ so that the believer in Christ can grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus and walk out who they already are in their inner man - the new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.

what happens bruce if I refuse to forgive others now that ive accepted my own forgiveness??? Jesus says if you do not forgive, God will not forgive you. is Jesus wrong here? or when he says " go forth and teach all that I commanded you to ALL NATIONS." does that not apply to the church then? that means his gospel teachings are just for pre cross folks then? if you insist on doing this lets get real here and pin one another down on what we actually are saying buddy.

 

[Grace777x70]

I read about 3 sentances here let me ask yopu one question so you can quit going back and forth, just a simple answer. do you think Jesus knew what He was saying? do you accept Jesus words bruce or are they only meant for Jews?

I believe we have to take Jesus' words in the context He was giving them and factor in His finished work on the cross as well. To those that were self-righteous and thought they were good because of their "good works" - He gave them Moses 2.0 which is the Law on steroids.

To those that knew they needed His grace in order to live - He gave them grace. Two different messages for two different groups of people. Don't take someone else's medicine.

Jesus words were meant for everyone to learn from but sometimes He was talking to different groups of people which is why I say - don't take some one else's medicine.

 

[followjesus]

As to the parable of the unforgiving debtor. Jesus said that they must forgive from their hearts. This is the disctinction here in this whole unforgiving debtor parable

We need to read all scripture in context of the finished work of Christ and what He did on the cross. To say that our sins are not forgiven in the believer after they cross is NOT the gospel.

We will forgive because we are in Christ now and have His nature in us - we need to have our minds renewed to this truth and we will walk in it.

Matt 18:35 says that God will not forgive unless you forgive from your heart.

This was Jesus giving them the law. Moses 2.0 as it shows their need for a Savior in order for Jesus to create in them a new heart that loves and forgives just like their Father does in Jesus.

Love always forgives - it's in our nature now because we are in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.

We have a new heart now - so we can't really have unforgiveness in our hearts anymore which is why Jesus said .."If you do not forgive from your heart" ....this is to expose their need for a new heart which always forgives.

Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

We love now from our new hearts in Christ and our hearts cannot sin. So Jesus's verse above in Matthew 18 would not apply to the person in Christ as it is impossible for them to have sin in their heart and to not forgive. We have the very nature of God inside us now - righteousness and holiness.

Romans 5:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

We love and forgive now from our new creations in Christ. It is our new nature in Christ in our inner man. We still have the flesh to deal with and that is done by walking after the Spirit and we will not walk after the desires of the flesh to fulfill "it's" desires.

1 John 5:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

1 John 3:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We need to preach and teach the true gospel of the grace of Christ so that the believer in Christ can grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus and walk out who they already are in their inner man - the new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.

bruce lol, does the words of Jesus in the 4 gospels, do they apply to Christians or no?

 

[followjesus]

I believe we have to take Jesus' words in the context He was giving them and factor in His finished work on the cross as well. To those that were self-righteous and thought they were good because of their "good works" - He gave them Moses 2.0 which is the Law on steroids.

To those that knew they needed His grace in order to live - He gave them grace. Two different messages for two different groups of people. Don't take someone else's medicine.

Jesus words were meant for everyone to learn from but sometimes He was talking to different groups of people which is why I say - don't take some one else's medicine.

okay so basically omit any condition taught by Jesus ? right? no condition upon salvation?

 

[Grace777x70]

what happens bruce if I refuse to forgive others now that ive accepted my own forgiveness??? Jesus says if you do not forgive, God will not forgive you. is Jesus wrong here? or when he says " go forth and teach all that I commanded you to ALL NATIONS." does that not apply to the church then? that means his gospel teachings are just for pre cross folks then?

if you insist on doing this lets get real here and pin one another down on what we actually are saying buddy.

Why would you want to live in the flesh and reuse to forgive? You are not walking in love then and are violating your true self in the Lord. The Lord would discipline ( child -train in the Greek ) those that did that. You would be the most miserable person.

If you think that all of a sudden God is going to "un-born you as a son" because you live in the flesh and are a baby Christian and refuse to forgive some one - you are dead wrong about the heart and love of our father for us and are in fact not seeing the work of Christ and the complete redemption we now have in Him.

I am praying that you do see the heart of the Father and the great salvation we truly have in Christ now.

As far as the great commission - Jesus said "Go and preach the gospel - first in Jerusalem, Judea and the Samaria.."..Have you gone to Jerusalem yet to first preach the gospel yet? If not then you are not obeying Jesus if we are to take all His words at face value.

 

[followjesus]

I believe we have to take Jesus' words in the context He was giving them and factor in His finished work on the cross as well. To those that were self-righteous and thought they were good because of their "good works" - He gave them Moses 2.0 which is the Law on steroids.

To those that knew they needed His grace in order to live - He gave them grace. Two different messages for two different groups of people. Don't take someone else's medicine.

Jesus words were meant for everyone to learn from but sometimes He was talking to different groups of people which is why I say - don't take some one else's medicine.

[/QUOTE)

there is One Group, those who belong to Jesus, that's it, when Jesus was on earth, His followers weren't saved by law then either, Jesus came with the new. you are omitting the actual gospel is the issue. Jesus AND PAUL teach conditions, teach how to live to please God. paul himself held the goal of pleasing God in every way, but gods pleased with us no matter what right? even if I refuse to repent Jesus is pleased because of His finished work? regardless of what the bible actually says? you have to omit and reason why Jesus words don't apply to you in that doctrine, true doctrine doesn't need to omit Jesus. its all about Jesus man, if you guys all have this amazing faith in jesus, do what he says to do and you will know the truth and it will set you free from the deception

 

[John146]

bruce lol, does the words of Jesus in the 4 gospels, do they apply to Christians or no?

Church doctrine goes through what the Lord revealed to the Apostle Paul after his conversion. The Church was not yet born during the Lord's earthly ministry. The death of the testator set the New Testament in motion.

 

[followjesus]

Why would you want to live in the flesh and reuse to forgive? You are not walking in love then and are violating your true self in the Lord. The Lord would discipline ( child -train in the Greek ) those that did that. You would be the most miserable person.

If you think that all of a sudden God is going to "un-born you as a son" because you live in the flesh and are a baby Christian and refuse to forgive some one - you are dead wrong about the heart and love of our father for us and are in fact not seeing the work of Christ and the complete redemption we now have in Him.

I am praying that you do see the heart of the Father and the great salvation we truly have in Christ now.

As far as the great commission - Jesus said "Go and preach the gospel - first in Jerusalem, Judea and the Samaria.."..Have you gone to Jerusalem yet to first preach the gospel yet? If not then you are not obeying Jesus if we are to take all His words at face value.

many people aren't forgiving, many people hold grudges ect lol again bruce I cant talk with you you just go in circles trying to avoid truth that doesn't jive with jps grace. its fruiotless man. no one WANTS to forgive when they are wronged common man look at the world look at this site lol Christians spend their lives name calling and bickering, would you call that forgiving? the point again was what happens according to the LORD if you do not forgive others?

 

[John146]

I believe we have to take Jesus' words in the context He was giving them and factor in His finished work on the cross as well. To those that were self-righteous and thought they were good because of their "good works" - He gave them Moses 2.0 which is the Law on steroids.

To those that knew they needed His grace in order to live - He gave them grace. Two different messages for two different groups of people. Don't take someone else's medicine.

Jesus words were meant for everyone to learn from but sometimes He was talking to different groups of people which is why I say - don't take some one else's medicine.

[/QUOTE)

there is One Group, those who belong to Jesus, that's it, when Jesus was on earth, His followers weren't saved by law then either, Jesus came with the new. you are omitting the actual gospel is the issue. Jesus AND PAUL teach conditions, teach how to live to please God. paul himself held the goal of pleasing God in every way, but gods pleased with us no matter what right? even if I refuse to repent Jesus is pleased because of His finished work? regardless of what the bible actually says? you have to omit and reason why Jesus words don't apply to you in that doctrine, true doctrine doesn't need to omit Jesus. its all about Jesus man, if you guys all have this amazing faith in jesus, do what he says to do and you will know the truth and it will set you free from the deception

The disciples had no idea about the death, burial and resurrection until after it happened and not until then did the Lord start to slowly open their understanding. That's what we believe in for salvation, right? The death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

 

[Grace777x70]

okay so basically omit any condition taught by Jesus ? right? no condition upon salvation?[

/QUOTE]

That's your thinking that we omit anything taught by Jesus. I said we need to interpret all scriptures in light of the cross and the finished work of Christ.

Yes..praise God - There is a condition upon salvation and Jesus said it many times in multiple ways.

John 6:40 (NA
SB)
[SUP]40 [/SUP] "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 3:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

[SUP]17 [/SUP] "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

We have a great salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ - believe in Him Jason! He has done great things for us and holy is His name!