Two Camps... rules & grace

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Who are Israelites;
to whom [pertaineth] the adoption,
and the glory,
and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service [of God],
and the promises;

Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Romans 9:4-5 (KJV)
you can't have chapter 9 without chapter 3.

But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile
(Romans 3:21-22)

i know you & your rabbi really really really really wish you were semetic, but you are not.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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you really need to read on down, and in your Bible, highlight/underline/circle verse 16.

maybe read it out loud, right now. it's something we all desperately need to internalize. it's arguably a synopsis of this entire epistle:

It does not, therefore,
depend on human desire or effort,
but on God’s mercy.


 
Jul 1, 2016
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even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
​“And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
Romans 9:24-26 (ESV2011)

Sha-ul is quoting from Hosea...

​Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or numbered. And in the place where it was said to them, “You are not my people,” it shall be said to them, “Children of the living God.” Hosea 1:10 (ESV2011)
 
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God the Holy Spirit has also said:

Matthew 7:21-23
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ [SUP]23 [/SUP]And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

These verses also apply to you disciplemike.

How can you say you are doing the will of the Father when you bring Strife among the Body of Believers?

1 Corinthians 3:3
[SUP]3 [/SUP]for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?
 
J

jamesg1951

Guest
Wow, a lot of people on this thread will have to answer for their words hear. Judge not lest ye be judged. You demand others live by the law then like the man who would not frgive a small debt after he was forgiven a larger one, you will be judge even if you try to claim the forgiveness of God. The Lords pray says, forgive us our debts AS WE FORGIVE our debtors.
 
Jan 15, 2011
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Disciplemike,
Sometimes I agree with what you say (in other posts), and sometimes I cannot agree..... *rubs temples*

Regarding the OP, there are rules for us who are under grace. It is called the Bible (Tanakh + NT).

However, in the new covenant there is a spiritual application of the Law or Torah. The Ceremonial and Ritual Law apply spiritually now. Do not eat, do not touch what is unclean, speaks to the spiritual things which we now should not partake in which are against the will of God. This is why Paul told the church in Colossians 2:

Colossians 2:11-23 NKJV
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins[c] of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.


16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not[d] seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.


20 Therefore,[e] if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

Paul was saying specifically here to those who were in Christ Jesus and understand that the Law was the shadow of which the substance is in Christ.... Let no one judge you in food or in drink, regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths..... because they were no longer required to do so. He was speaking about not being required to do these things anymore by the ritual and ceremony of the Law, but to stand in the substance which is in Christ. I've seen many people use this scripture to try to justify remaining in the Law, but it explains the exact opposite. Paul, a pharisee of pharisees was shown this by the Lord.

Let's not look at this as if it was saying the Law is completely abolished, as we know that Christ said specifically that He didn't come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. In the New Covenant for those who are in Christ Jesus, whether Gentile or Messianic Jews, we have to understand that the Law is now applied Spiritually. Granted the Moral Law is still applicable as it was spiritual to begin with, but the law of requirements IS the Old Covenant. The Law is called the Law of sin and death or the Law of blessing and cursing. It refers to the same thing and for ALL who are in Christ Jesus, it would be good to understand that the law applies spiritually.

Let us also stand and know that the grafting into the vine means we are grafted into Christ through the promise of Abraham which pre-dated the Torah. We should also understand that replacement theology is a heresy. The Church does not replace Israel and God is not done with Israel yet. This is why we have a Great Tribulation coming up, also known as the Time of Jacob's (Israel's) Trouble. As we see in Romans, if Israel does not continue in unbelief, they will be re-grafted back in, and there is even greater glory when the natural branches are re-grafted back in than when the wild branches are grafted in. This is why we continue to pray for Israel! The warning also applies to the Church that if we do not continue in belief, we shall be cut off as well.
 
Feb 28, 2016
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JOHN 8:39.

They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said unto them,
If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,825
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JOHN 8:39.

They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said unto them,
If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.
& this, to the people who obeyed the written commands more zealously than anyone in all of Judea!

righteousness is far more than behavior modification & living between the lines.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,825
13,187
113
​Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or numbered. And in the place where it was said to them, “You are not my people,” it shall be said to them, “Children of the living God.” Hosea 1:10 (ESV2011)
After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
(Revelation 7:9)

144,000

12[SUP]2[/SUP]*1,000

(the fullness of the people of God)[SUP]2 [/SUP]* (a very large number)
 
J

jcha

Guest
you can't have chapter 9 without chapter 3.

But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile
(Romans 3:21-22)

i know you & your rabbi really really really really wish you were semetic, but you are not.

What? You are not Semetic also?


1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.4So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,825
13,187
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What? You are not Semetic also?
in the flesh i'm a mix of Hispanic, Germanic & Slavic.

do you seriously not know the difference between flesh & spirit?
((actually, in hindsight, that might explain alot))
 
J

jcha

Guest
There is Only "One" Covenant (English)

If your faith isn't based upon the foundation of the Torah, then you need to seriously consider studying the Torah diligently for yourself to see what
YHWH’s Torah says. If your foundation is built predominantly upon Scriptures from the New Covenant alone, then you will have a less than ideal understanding of YHWH's Scriptures and His will for your life. This less than ideal understanding will exist because you will lack the proper foundational understanding to interpret the rest of the TaNaCh and New Covenant Scriptures correctly.

Bottom-line, it will be impossible to fully comprehend the New Covenant Scriptures without a proper foundation from the Torah. No wonder Y’shua
said, "I have not come to destroy the Law (literally meaning, to incorrectly teach the Torah – thereby making it undone), I have come to fulfill the Law
(literally meaning, "I have come to explain and interpret the Torah to you correctly")"2. Therefore, "everything" in the New Covenant Scriptures based on dogma is "clearly" founded in the Torah.
With that in mind, let’s start our journey…

Click on the blue link above if you desire to read this entire pdf.
 
Jul 1, 2016
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Also, consider this.
The plans given to Moshe for the earthly tabernacle were a representation of the one in heaven.
In the Most Holy Place, there is the Ark of the Covenant. God's mercy seat is on top of the Ark of the Covenant. What is in the foundation of the throne? God's commandments.
 
Dec 9, 2011
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One camp had the instruction book from God, but didn't recognize the Messiah.
The other camp recognized the Messiah, but wanted nothing to do with the instruction book.
but then... what would the united camp look like?
On the outside or Inside?
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
1 John 3:23-24 (NASB)

[SUP]23 [/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

[SUP]24 [/SUP] The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
The Greek word for commandment (s) can be translated in the plural or singular ...
 
Dec 9, 2011
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break it down for me chief. what are you saying?
GOD looks at the heart,man looks at the outward appearances.
Under law they were purifying the flesh but they couldn't clean the spirit,only by grace through faith can a person be saved.
+++
Romans 1:16-17
King James Version(KJV)

16.)For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17.)For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
 
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Tell us disciplemike, do you believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit? Or do you believe only in the Father and Son only?

If you do believe only in the Father and Son, why do you reject the Holy Spirit? Do you not know you do this at your own peril?
 
J

jcha

Guest
The Mountain of the Lord
2Now it will come about that In the last days The mountain of the house of the LORD Will be established as the chief of the mountains, And will be raised above the hills; And all the nations will stream to it. 3And many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the Godof Jacob; That He may teach us concerning His waysAnd that we may walk in His paths." For the law will goforth from Zion And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4And He will judge between the nations, And will render decisions for many peoples; And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they learn war.…


Psalm 25:4
Make me know Your ways, O LORD; Teach me Your paths.

Psalm 25:5
Lead me in Your truth and teach me, For You are the God of my salvation; For You I wait all the day.

Psalm 27:11
Teach me Your way, O LORD, And lead me in a level path Because of my foes.

Psalm 86:11
Teach me Your way, O LORD; I will walk in Your truth; Unite my heart to fear Your name.

Psalm 119:133
Establish my footsteps in Your word, And do not let any iniquity have dominion over me.

Jeremiah 6:16
Thus says the LORD, "Stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths, Where the good way is, and walk in it; And you will find rest for your souls. But they said, 'We will not walk in it.'



Desires? Free from all law?

Overcoming the World

1John 5:2By this we know that we love the children of God: when we love God and keep His commandments. 3Forthis is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome, 4because everyone born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world: our faith.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Thank God that John tells us earlier in his epistle in 1 John chapter 3 exactly what God's commandments are in the New Covenant.

1 John 3:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.