Jude has the best title for hyper grace!
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Oh man!!! What you are really saying is "Look, I'm not going to be confused with the facts, I'm going to believe what I want about you regardless of how much you try to tell me you're not doing what I say!!"
ARRRGGGGHHHHH Don't you know how this kind of debate leads to a long trip off a short peer!!?? Tons of splashing around but no swimming!!! Discussion is about listening and hearing what someone else is saying. Unless you do that., you have no business trying to tell them AND others what is being said.
ARRRGGGGHHHHH Don't you know how this kind of debate leads to a long trip off a short peer!!?? Tons of splashing around but no swimming!!! Discussion is about listening and hearing what someone else is saying. Unless you do that., you have no business trying to tell them AND others what is being said.
Oh-my-goodness...
I was wrong.
I said it did not describe them, but I was wrong.
Oh my goodness...
I was not ready to bear it all yesterday in my time with God. And this morning, before I came in here, He pushed it on me again, but in Romans this time. 3:8. It's very distressing.
I didn't understand because it really seemed to not describe them, but this man has explained it well and the Spirit helped me. It is for their own gain, but because it did not involve actual money I was thinking in literal monetary terms about those in here who argue that the gospel of Gods' marvelous grace is allowing sin and evil. But it does involve their gain, which is not saying money necessarily. It is instead a gain where they increase and He decreases...this is the great falling away. This is the deception. Oh my goodness, I heard someone say the exact opposite...that it is people who proclaim the message of Gods' marvelous grace are the ones fallen from grace. This seems impossible. How is it possible to think this? I am very distressed for them.
I was wrong.
I said it did not describe them, but I was wrong.
Oh my goodness...
I was not ready to bear it all yesterday in my time with God. And this morning, before I came in here, He pushed it on me again, but in Romans this time. 3:8. It's very distressing.
I didn't understand because it really seemed to not describe them, but this man has explained it well and the Spirit helped me. It is for their own gain, but because it did not involve actual money I was thinking in literal monetary terms about those in here who argue that the gospel of Gods' marvelous grace is allowing sin and evil. But it does involve their gain, which is not saying money necessarily. It is instead a gain where they increase and He decreases...this is the great falling away. This is the deception. Oh my goodness, I heard someone say the exact opposite...that it is people who proclaim the message of Gods' marvelous grace are the ones fallen from grace. This seems impossible. How is it possible to think this? I am very distressed for them.
Sorry. I was referring back to my op where I said that the descriptions Jude gave did not apply to those in here who argue against Gods' marvelous grace and who argue against us being made right with God from start to finish by faith.
But the list DOES describe them, but I was only looking at MONEY being the gain for them spoken of.But it isn't money with them, just as it wasn't with Cain. It is...a different sort of gain (though it is not gain - it is death and condemnation, but they think they have somehow made a deal to cheat death.)
I am so distressed for them I think I am not making sense to you.
No, I am not saying I understand grace more...I am saying that...I understand the subtleness and cunning of evil more.
But the list DOES describe them, but I was only looking at MONEY being the gain for them spoken of.But it isn't money with them, just as it wasn't with Cain. It is...a different sort of gain (though it is not gain - it is death and condemnation, but they think they have somehow made a deal to cheat death.)
I am so distressed for them I think I am not making sense to you.
No, I am not saying I understand grace more...I am saying that...I understand the subtleness and cunning of evil more.
I understood what you were saying and it is absolutely true what you say about those opposing - they are gaining but not in money as you say - they are "gaining" their own way ( the way of Cain ) and thus in effect are denying their Lord by trying to establish their own works.
I had never seen that before and when you brought that out - I could see what is happening very clearly too. It is very disturbing to see our beloved brethren caught in that deception. It has the "appearance " of good but it denies any power to effect a real change within us.
These self-attempts are devoid of the life of Christ that is causing the transformation in people which can only be done by the Holy Spirit in us as we behold the glory ( goodness ) of the Lord as in a mirror. 2 Cor. 3:17-18
I had never seen that before and when you brought that out - I could see what is happening very clearly too. It is very disturbing to see our beloved brethren caught in that deception. It has the "appearance " of good but it denies any power to effect a real change within us.
These self-attempts are devoid of the life of Christ that is causing the transformation in people which can only be done by the Holy Spirit in us as we behold the glory ( goodness ) of the Lord as in a mirror. 2 Cor. 3:17-18
Just a WORD means this
You stated I called A PERSON that word which means the same as stupid when I did not
I was speaking to the stupid thing said as plain as day. You adress the argument not the person as it was stupid (ie retarded) to tie the things together like that.
I didnt say what I might believe she might be (mentally) but rather I said what I believed her words were on that point.
Then you start on me about my age, when it come to calling someone such a name (when I did not)
Means stupid, people SAY stupid things, dumb things, nonsensical things, crazy things and they can be all of that in themselves but you are speaking to what is spoken (the argument) and not the person (themselves).
I dont know what God would think, didnt ask him
Isaiah 29:21 That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.
Now as these threads typically go, it will deteriorate into the worst of the worse (as usual) as this sort of grace seems to manifest itself in provoking first, false accusations and basically the same thing HeRoseFromTheDead pretty much understood and posted on several times, so with that I am done with any of these kinds of grace threads there is never an ounce of it in them anyway.
You stated I called A PERSON that word which means the same as stupid when I did not
I was speaking to the stupid thing said as plain as day. You adress the argument not the person as it was stupid (ie retarded) to tie the things together like that.
I didnt say what I might believe she might be (mentally) but rather I said what I believed her words were on that point.
Then you start on me about my age, when it come to calling someone such a name (when I did not)
Means stupid, people SAY stupid things, dumb things, nonsensical things, crazy things and they can be all of that in themselves but you are speaking to what is spoken (the argument) and not the person (themselves).
I dont know what God would think, didnt ask him
Isaiah 29:21 That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.
Now as these threads typically go, it will deteriorate into the worst of the worse (as usual) as this sort of grace seems to manifest itself in provoking first, false accusations and basically the same thing HeRoseFromTheDead pretty much understood and posted on several times, so with that I am done with any of these kinds of grace threads there is never an ounce of it in them anyway.
The sad thing is that people who denounce 'hyper grace' deliberately misrepresent those who teach the grace of God as the means of ultimate salvation. They mean 'easy believism' which I have not seen as taught on here.
We are saved from start to finish by grace through faith. It is all of God.
But God's grace is effective. It cannot leave a man as he was. GOD will change and if necessary chasten him severely. But the only way in which we can 'work out God's salvation' is by God working it within us. We just respond to God,
We are saved from start to finish by grace through faith. It is all of God.
But God's grace is effective. It cannot leave a man as he was. GOD will change and if necessary chasten him severely. But the only way in which we can 'work out God's salvation' is by God working it within us. We just respond to God,
Amen...well said!
True grace doesn't permit us to stay the same; after you know that you are not condemned - it empowers you to change.
Grace was never intended to allow us to keep on being the same as the true gospel of the grace of Christ is God's very empowerment through the life of Christ in and through us that transforms us - as we behold the glory of Christ as in a mirror - we see reflected back who we are in Him because we are one spirit with the Lord and the Spirit transforms us ( 2 Cor. 3:17-18 ) -
His life transforms us outwardly to reflect Christ that is in our inner man - created in righteousness and holiness. We "awake to righteousness and sin not". Awake means to come to ourselves - to sober up.
When we see that we are called to the true life in Christ and we know we can't work it up and can't accomplish it in our own strength but we desire the His life in us to come forth - that's when empowering grace comes to make our faith a reality in our lives.
True grace doesn't permit us to stay the same; after you know that you are not condemned - it empowers you to change.
Grace was never intended to allow us to keep on being the same as the true gospel of the grace of Christ is God's very empowerment through the life of Christ in and through us that transforms us - as we behold the glory of Christ as in a mirror - we see reflected back who we are in Him because we are one spirit with the Lord and the Spirit transforms us ( 2 Cor. 3:17-18 ) -
His life transforms us outwardly to reflect Christ that is in our inner man - created in righteousness and holiness. We "awake to righteousness and sin not". Awake means to come to ourselves - to sober up.
When we see that we are called to the true life in Christ and we know we can't work it up and can't accomplish it in our own strength but we desire the His life in us to come forth - that's when empowering grace comes to make our faith a reality in our lives.
Jude 4-5 "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not."
Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
God told Cain if he did well=doing good, that he would be accepted, but if he did not do well=not doing good, then Satan's desire would become his desire=sin.
Genesis 4:7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
So why was Cain not accepted and cast out?
1 John 3:12
Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous."
Doing good or evil matters.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not."
Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
God told Cain if he did well=doing good, that he would be accepted, but if he did not do well=not doing good, then Satan's desire would become his desire=sin.
Genesis 4:7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
So why was Cain not accepted and cast out?
1 John 3:12
Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous."
Doing good or evil matters.
Cain's works were evil because he brought his own self-effort instead of relying on the way that God has ordained things.
Cain thought he could save himself by "what he did and produced" - just like modern day D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness mindsets. These are the types that are really denying their Lord and Christ.
You can see this in people that are doing their "own thing" in regards to making themselves acceptable for God for righteousness. Christ is our righteousness now - we don't earn nor maintain righteousness by what we do or don't do. We live by the life of Christ in us now.
Teach the abundance of the grace of God and we will grow up in Christ and walk in the inheritance that is ours now in Christ.
Acts 20:32 (NASB)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] "And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.
Cain thought he could save himself by "what he did and produced" - just like modern day D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness mindsets. These are the types that are really denying their Lord and Christ.
You can see this in people that are doing their "own thing" in regards to making themselves acceptable for God for righteousness. Christ is our righteousness now - we don't earn nor maintain righteousness by what we do or don't do. We live by the life of Christ in us now.
Teach the abundance of the grace of God and we will grow up in Christ and walk in the inheritance that is ours now in Christ.
Acts 20:32 (NASB)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] "And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.
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Jude 4-5 "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not."
Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
God told Cain if he did well=doing good, that he would be accepted, but if he did not do well=not doing good, then Satan's desire would become his desire=sin.
Genesis 4:7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
So why was Cain not accepted and cast out?
1 John 3:12
Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous."
Doing good or evil matters.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not."
Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
God told Cain if he did well=doing good, that he would be accepted, but if he did not do well=not doing good, then Satan's desire would become his desire=sin.
Genesis 4:7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
So why was Cain not accepted and cast out?
1 John 3:12
Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous."
Doing good or evil matters.