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You have to be a 5-point Calvinist to believe that man does have any part in salvation. Calvinism says that man has no free choice and God does it all.
God has done everything possible for man to be able to find salvation, and he makes the pathway completely free and paved by his grace, but he does not force man to be saved.
God has done everything possible for man to be able to find salvation, and he makes the pathway completely free and paved by his grace, but he does not force man to be saved.
The hyper grace teachers teach that all our sins, ( Past present and future ) have been forgiven, So they don't need to repent or confess their sins.
One well known hyper grace teachers said,
"When I sin, I'm blessed, because God isn't counting my sins against me.
He also said when he sins, He confesses he is rightous.
But the Bible says, when we sin, we confess our sins.
The difference between the Biblical grace and the hyper grace, is,
The Biblical grace gives us the power to overcome sin, and the hyper grace teachers grace give them the power to sin.
But when they are challenged, they say, "we're not saying that".
One well known hyper grace teachers said,
"When I sin, I'm blessed, because God isn't counting my sins against me.
He also said when he sins, He confesses he is rightous.
But the Bible says, when we sin, we confess our sins.
The difference between the Biblical grace and the hyper grace, is,
The Biblical grace gives us the power to overcome sin, and the hyper grace teachers grace give them the power to sin.
But when they are challenged, they say, "we're not saying that".
What we declare ourselves is irrelevant. God in His grace accounts us as righteous in Christ even while we are still ungodly. We are thus righteous for ever in His sight (rom 3.24-25; 4.5),
whom God has cleansed call not thou common,
God has declared no such thing, you are imagining it.
we forget nothing. where God's grace is concerned there is no 'our part'. It is all of compassion and mercy, you presume upon God. He saves unto the uttermost those who come to God by Jesus Christ.
whom God has cleansed call not thou common,
God has declared no such thing, you are imagining it.
we forget nothing. where God's grace is concerned there is no 'our part'. It is all of compassion and mercy, you presume upon God. He saves unto the uttermost those who come to God by Jesus Christ.
I imagine you are speaking of JP when you say "one well known.....??
I have almost all of his books inside my computer. And I can instantly post the precise quote from almost any of his books. Would you please cite the book titles and page numbers for what you claim above?
I have no doubt you believe you heard that. We all tend to hear what we expect to hear when we selectively read through prejudiced lenses. But, I am specifically and pointedly asking for his book titles and page numbers so I can see for myself.
That isn't too difficult for you to provide, is it.
I have almost all of his books inside my computer. And I can instantly post the precise quote from almost any of his books. Would you please cite the book titles and page numbers for what you claim above?
I have no doubt you believe you heard that. We all tend to hear what we expect to hear when we selectively read through prejudiced lenses. But, I am specifically and pointedly asking for his book titles and page numbers so I can see for myself.
That isn't too difficult for you to provide, is it.
I don't know what 5 point calvinistism is. But I do know that I had no free choice in anything before I met God. I had no freedom to escape my own nature. I was a slave to it. A leopard can't change his spots.
I now have freedom of choice to every day choose to believe God or believe the world instead and go back to it. My choice is between two things. I didn't have that choice before but now I do. I will NOT glory in something good coming from me. I have seen the resulting arrogance by men taking a gift like being given their sight to then condemn other men for not yet being given their sight, as if it was not a gift but rather a choice they made because they CHOSE to see. It makes me ill.
Maybe I am, as you say, a calvinitic person but what I know for sure is that my salvation comes from trusting in God, my sanctification comes from trusting in God, my provision comes from trusting in God, my keeping comes from trusting God. None of it comes by my willing it - it all comes by Gods' wonderful grace to me - and I will never make this Free Will to be one of my gods. I have seen the arrogance that results.
I now have freedom of choice to every day choose to believe God or believe the world instead and go back to it. My choice is between two things. I didn't have that choice before but now I do. I will NOT glory in something good coming from me. I have seen the resulting arrogance by men taking a gift like being given their sight to then condemn other men for not yet being given their sight, as if it was not a gift but rather a choice they made because they CHOSE to see. It makes me ill.
Maybe I am, as you say, a calvinitic person but what I know for sure is that my salvation comes from trusting in God, my sanctification comes from trusting in God, my provision comes from trusting in God, my keeping comes from trusting God. None of it comes by my willing it - it all comes by Gods' wonderful grace to me - and I will never make this Free Will to be one of my gods. I have seen the arrogance that results.
I want to be careful in how I write this, and make sure that people understand I am not trying to take a side. Simply, realize that while Angela has been a bit on the warpath we should acknowledge that it is in sincerity and with genuine concern for the believer. She cares for people and doesn't want them to get stuck and harmed by a doctrine that in her own opinion is dangerous. So she is passionate for the defense of those hurting, and doesn't want people to suffer.
VVith this in mind, answer in grace and with meekness. I myself was rather forward in coming to the defense of a fellow believer and that has been resolved privately. She does realize she has acted contrary to certain forum etiquette, but is steadfast in protecting what she believes to be the truth and to not allow people to get into a doctrine she perceives to be harmful. So again, this in mind, we need to come to a mutual understanding of where this perceived danger is located (within the doctrine) and how to resolve this misunderstanding, if it is one.
I apologize to anyone that was surprised by my forward response, in defense of a fellow believer. I should have handled that a little better. Now, lets move on to understanding.
VVith this in mind, answer in grace and with meekness. I myself was rather forward in coming to the defense of a fellow believer and that has been resolved privately. She does realize she has acted contrary to certain forum etiquette, but is steadfast in protecting what she believes to be the truth and to not allow people to get into a doctrine she perceives to be harmful. So again, this in mind, we need to come to a mutual understanding of where this perceived danger is located (within the doctrine) and how to resolve this misunderstanding, if it is one.
I apologize to anyone that was surprised by my forward response, in defense of a fellow believer. I should have handled that a little better. Now, lets move on to understanding.
Well if you mean that our condemnation has been removed for our, present and future sins you are correct. It is called 'being justified (accounted righteous) for all our sins'. There is now, and always will be, 'no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus', for who will condemn?. Shall God Who justifies? Shall Christ Who died for us? *Rom 8.31.-34. For whom He justified, them he also glorified, (Rom 8.30). You are just totally ignorant of Romans.
We repented and confessed our sins in order to be justified (Rom 1.18-3.24). We must repent daily in order to receive our Father's forgiveness for grieving Him. (Matt 6).
Your problem in both cases is your lack of understanding of Scripture. Sometimes it speaks of forgiveness as over all (Acts 26.18). At other times it speaks of forgiveness for individual sins {Matt 6).
He is both blessed because God does not count sins against someone He has justified (He does not unjustify them), and at the same time under conviction because he has grieved His Father,.,
Because he is still justified he can call himself righteous before God because Christ is His righteousness. I presume he merely worded it badly,,
we all confess our daily sins because we have grieved our Father, but they no longer bring us under condemnation.
There is no difference between God's grace and God's super grace. It is simply bringing out that it is the uttermost of grace. When God reveals His grace it is his utter compassion and mercy toward those who do not merit any of it. God's grace is total and complete. Grace is God acting in mercy and compassion to those who are undeserving of it.
You make the mistake of the Roman Catholics. You interpret it in the light of its secondary unusual meaning 'giving grace'. But when God shows His grace He is not 'giving grace', He is acting in grace, His unmerited love and favour. That is its primary meaning.
When God acts in grace HE gives us power to overcome sins. But He never gives us power to overcome ALL SIN. We are left to know our own weakness. When men claim to be wholly without sin they just mock God.
We repented and confessed our sins in order to be justified (Rom 1.18-3.24). We must repent daily in order to receive our Father's forgiveness for grieving Him. (Matt 6).
Your problem in both cases is your lack of understanding of Scripture. Sometimes it speaks of forgiveness as over all (Acts 26.18). At other times it speaks of forgiveness for individual sins {Matt 6).
He is both blessed because God does not count sins against someone He has justified (He does not unjustify them), and at the same time under conviction because he has grieved His Father,.,
Because he is still justified he can call himself righteous before God because Christ is His righteousness. I presume he merely worded it badly,,
we all confess our daily sins because we have grieved our Father, but they no longer bring us under condemnation.
There is no difference between God's grace and God's super grace. It is simply bringing out that it is the uttermost of grace. When God reveals His grace it is his utter compassion and mercy toward those who do not merit any of it. God's grace is total and complete. Grace is God acting in mercy and compassion to those who are undeserving of it.
You make the mistake of the Roman Catholics. You interpret it in the light of its secondary unusual meaning 'giving grace'. But when God shows His grace He is not 'giving grace', He is acting in grace, His unmerited love and favour. That is its primary meaning.
When God acts in grace HE gives us power to overcome sins. But He never gives us power to overcome ALL SIN. We are left to know our own weakness. When men claim to be wholly without sin they just mock God.
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L
I read this twice Chester and this is what I came away with
you are speaking of an unbeliever
Valiant is speaking of a believer
God declares us righteous in His Son
we do not have our own righteousness...there is a reference to them being as filthy rages (actually more descriptive than that)
these statements are from the Bible
L
no
this is actually the crux of the misunderstanding and has been gone over mulitple of multiple times
to consistently deny the literally several hundred posts in which those who have been labelled hyper grace, including myself even though I have never identified with any particular teacher in these forums, is worse then the continued accusations that we gloss over sin
Romans is a book I have paid particular attention to and I continue to do that.
Why do you and others continue to wave this bogus flag around?
this is actually the crux of the misunderstanding and has been gone over mulitple of multiple times
to consistently deny the literally several hundred posts in which those who have been labelled hyper grace, including myself even though I have never identified with any particular teacher in these forums, is worse then the continued accusations that we gloss over sin
Romans is a book I have paid particular attention to and I continue to do that.
Why do you and others continue to wave this bogus flag around?
L
no again
to state the above, one is saying that the believer is following a person...I wrote about that in my op
we hue out broken cisterns for ourselves if we do not have a personal walk with God
what people are calling hyper grace is actually a worse problem
we are each responsible before God yet thousands upon thousands of 'Christians' do not enter in with God on a daily basis, or even a weekly basis. they are fed by a person and not by God
the problem is people sinning...not grace...this misnomer of hyper grace is a fallacy that tries to put the onus of sin on bad doctrine
we have two problems right there. we have 1) those who accept everything without looking into it for themselves and 2) those who think that the Bible is the cornerstone
The cornerstone is Christ. His words are truth and life. and yes, they are contained within the scriptures, but if you do not actually go TO the One who has the words of life, you will ultimately fail
and the less then obvious truth there, to some, is that without the Holy Spirit, the words in the Bible are NOT truth and life; instead they bring death and condemnation and are used to gain power over others...such as in the Catholic Church and frankly Protestant denoms also
the entire thing is out of balance and only seeking God with a heart that desires God for Himself, can possibly hope to begin to understand how He reveals Himself
we are dealing with spiritual matters here and some people choose to forget that or perhaps do not even know just what that means
to state the above, one is saying that the believer is following a person...I wrote about that in my op
we hue out broken cisterns for ourselves if we do not have a personal walk with God
what people are calling hyper grace is actually a worse problem
we are each responsible before God yet thousands upon thousands of 'Christians' do not enter in with God on a daily basis, or even a weekly basis. they are fed by a person and not by God
the problem is people sinning...not grace...this misnomer of hyper grace is a fallacy that tries to put the onus of sin on bad doctrine
we have two problems right there. we have 1) those who accept everything without looking into it for themselves and 2) those who think that the Bible is the cornerstone
The cornerstone is Christ. His words are truth and life. and yes, they are contained within the scriptures, but if you do not actually go TO the One who has the words of life, you will ultimately fail
and the less then obvious truth there, to some, is that without the Holy Spirit, the words in the Bible are NOT truth and life; instead they bring death and condemnation and are used to gain power over others...such as in the Catholic Church and frankly Protestant denoms also
the entire thing is out of balance and only seeking God with a heart that desires God for Himself, can possibly hope to begin to understand how He reveals Himself
we are dealing with spiritual matters here and some people choose to forget that or perhaps do not even know just what that means
what you fail to see is that man does not have free will. He has a will limited by his upbringing, his environment and his nature. That is why he goes against God as He really is. No man will 'freely' choose God. It is contrary to his nature. They that are in the flesh CANNOT please God.
But God does not FORCE men to be saved. He works on them and makes them want to be saved. And once He has done so, 'who will lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is GOD Who justifies.' (rom 8)
But God does not FORCE men to be saved. He works on them and makes them want to be saved. And once He has done so, 'who will lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is GOD Who justifies.' (rom 8)
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