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Vigil
Guest
(No, whether you believe me or not. I sincerely came upon this thread, not knowing ANYTHING about "hypergrace" or that it was even a thing. I did not come here looking for an argument, or already having some issue with the philosophy/interpretation. My first impression of Hyper Grace was literally the first thing said on this thread.)
" have seen firsthand the changes that come with people who embrace this message.
“I joined a small group 3 years ago that went from having regular prayer meetings and living holy connected lives together to stating ‘prayer is a work and denies grace’ and ‘sin allows grace to do its great work.’ All of our prayer meetings and Bible studies were traded in for game-nights and nights out at the bar to ‘witness’ where many from the group got plastered ... all in the name of ‘grace.’
“My heart has been so broken for my dear friends who I walked so closely with. As a group, they have embraced sin as not only acceptable, but justified and desirable. I have been completely ostracized and mocked for my stand in holiness. They don’t even call me by my name anymore—they call me ‘Pharisee.’ Unfortunately, I have had to step completely away from these loved ones and am spending my life in prayer for them.” I suggest that whatever took a hold of this group of believers, was not the grace of God.
and here are a couple of more:
Another wrote this:“I had a loved one who was an intense follower of hyper grace start to lie and cheat in his business. … He was a different person before he started following hyper grace. … He wasn’t greedy, in fact he was selfless, humble and very much in integrity. Also I can’t mention to him the fact that he lied and withheld info in order to steer people to invest ... Why? Because he says there is no condemnation in Christ. So no one is allowed to mention that aspect of his behavior to him … or else.”
A worship leader wrote to me, describing what is happening among prominent worship leaders he knows, where “the drinking partying thing is rampant. Totally excused because they were under grace not legalism.”
Of course, my hyper-grace friends will protest: “This is not the fruit of our message. Our message produces love for Jesus and holy living. These people obviously misunderstood what we were teaching.”
"
Basically what I got from this, is a lot of people are using hyper-grace as an excuse to just sin, perhaps I am seriously confused, but this seemed to be the message you were trying to convey in your very first post. So now I am utterly confused, perhaps I am just stupid or ignorant and can't comprehend what this thread is about?
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LaurenTM
Guest
there is no hyper grace Cee
I am starting to take exception the name because there is only one true grace
we don't have freedom to sin and I realize you are not saying that
as far as religion coming from fear, this is what scripture actually states about religion:
Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world James 1:27
the idea of hyper grace is not that people will be misled by freedom in Christ...the concept of hyper grace, according to heresy hunters, is that grace is abused, meaning freedom to sin
I think we need to start being very careful how we respond
in Christ we are made righteous, but we do not have freedom to sin...He keeps us from sin
I have read enough of your posts to understand what you are saying, but if I did not know you a little, I would not have the understanding of your belief that I do
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Vigil
Guest
I am not disputing that, I am just asking what her first message was trying to convey about this movement. That is all. Because the first thing she wrote read like a disparagement of the movement, or "horror stories" about those that subscribe to the notion.
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LaurenTM
Guest
hey ~ are you kidding me?
what about the part where I wrote about broken cisterns
my emphasis is on what God is saying and He AIN'T saying hyper anything
He is saying what Romans chapter one says
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Vigil
Guest
Okay so lets just call it grace. But I'm still sincerely confused as to why you included those anecdotes if not to illustrate something? I guess I'm not getting what you are trying to illustrate. I can't quick-draw bible-quotes nor can I say I have spent my entire life going to church, but hey I'm trying here, I admitted that I am ignorant.
I guess you were pointing out antithetical-notions to this concept and reputing them? If so now I get it.
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LaurenTM
Guest
can you imagine what God thinks?
no wonder OT prophets tore their hair out
people want to get the news on the front page ...in fact, preferably just the headlines
God says we will find Him when we search for Him with our entire heart
notice the word SEARCH
that means a whole lot more than sitting down with a pile of books and a Greek NT...and there is nothing wrong with any of that
except for the fact that God is living and so is His word, yet people are treating it like 'just too much work man' do you have the Reader's Digest version?
ps...I'm not angry...no that's not true, I am angry somewhat
I am tired of spoon fed people who don't know what they are talking about, telling everyone else they are wrong
end of rant
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Vigil
Guest
You are right that people are responsible for their own salvation and research, but we are also called to correct our brothers and sisters. It is frustrating, but I think its a bit heavy-handed to compare yourself to an OT prophet. (Even if indirectly.)
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LaurenTM
Guest
can't help you
probably because I suspect your motives
there are hundreds of pages written in this forum about what you say you are confused about
avail yourself of them
you will find both eloquent posts and absolute garbage
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LaurenTM
Guest
hey dude
I NEVER EVER said people are responsible for their own salvation
and I never will
and I certainly did not compare myself to an OT prophet
now I know why my radar went up
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Vigil
Guest
I have not been able to get on a forum in months, so I have not seen any of them. If you suspect me of having "ulterior-motives" you are wrong, I am sincere. I did not come here seeking to trick anyone and go "aha!" like a pharisee. I despise what the Pharisees represented and hold honesty in higher regard from that. It's hard not to be insulted by your insinuation, but you don't know me so I have to try to be understanding. I guess have a good day, but know that I came here sincerely trying to learn. I will do so on my own then. God bless.
Maybe you got thrown off a little by the way that LaurenTM has picked up a bad habit of often quoting simply text within a "text box" without including the header portion that shows who originally wrote the words and where they came from... that often makes it look like they are either her words, or words she is in agreement with. It drives me crazy sometimes, trying to figure out exactly what she is meaning to say.
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Vigil
Guest
I understand when I explain Biblical grace people might think I'm teaching something I'm not.
As I've written other places my idea of sin is probably much stricter than most people.
Paul ran into the same issue.
If I say we should no longer be dominated by sin, I am accused of preaching perfectionism.
If I say grace empowers us to no longer desire sin, I am accused of preaching perverted grace.
Yet both view points are incomplete without the other.
I don't have a problem with the term hyper-grace because I actually want grace to abound, but not so we can sin, but so that we no longer desire to. So that we walk in the fullness of who we are in Christ.
Some preach less grace thinking it safer, I preach more grace knowing it stronger.
The issue I HAVE is that people don't have a right understanding of grace.
So let's start there...
Is Grace given?
1 Co 3:10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care.
Romans 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but think of yourself with sober judgment, according to the measure of faith God has given you.
Is grace given, linked to walking out who we are in Christ?
1 Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace to me was not in vain. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I but the grace of God that was with me.
And here's Peter continually praying that we would have MORE grace...
2 Peter 1:2 May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.
2 Peter 3:8 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
What about sin's connection to grace?
Romans 6:4 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
It is through humility we receive more grace...
James 4:6 But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”
And here's John...
John 1:16 And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.
And here's Paul to Timothy his beloved spiritual son...
2 Tim 2:1 You then, my child, be strengthened by the grace that is in Christ Jesus
2 4:22 Tim The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.
I am not afraid that people will take me wrong. That's on them.
Titus 1:15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.
I will continue to preach the message of grace, until we see every form of sin bow.
I actually believe grace allows us to walk away from the dominion of sin as Paul declared.
And not just the "outward forms" but also the "inward forms".
And it doesn't happen by telling people what they can and can't do. It happens by them understanding the love and power of God. It happens through receiving and understanding grace.
And we can only give what we ourselves have received.
Talk doesn't transform, but His power does.
1 Co 4:20 For the kingdom of God does not consist in talk but in power.
And in regards to it being is His power that transforms us.
Here is my prayer:
Thank you Holy Spirit that you alone teach us, guide us, and give us grace to grow in Christ. It is your power that transforms us and I pray that people will embrace grace. In it's purest truest form. And then go and share with others. And just like John, Peter, and Paul they would pray for them to receive grace as well. So that we can get beyond this contention about "can we sin" and instead walk into "how can we truly love". So that we can reveal You to the world.
As I've written other places my idea of sin is probably much stricter than most people.
Paul ran into the same issue.
If I say we should no longer be dominated by sin, I am accused of preaching perfectionism.
If I say grace empowers us to no longer desire sin, I am accused of preaching perverted grace.
Yet both view points are incomplete without the other.
I don't have a problem with the term hyper-grace because I actually want grace to abound, but not so we can sin, but so that we no longer desire to. So that we walk in the fullness of who we are in Christ.
Some preach less grace thinking it safer, I preach more grace knowing it stronger.
The issue I HAVE is that people don't have a right understanding of grace.
So let's start there...
Is Grace given?
1 Co 3:10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care.
Romans 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but think of yourself with sober judgment, according to the measure of faith God has given you.
Is grace given, linked to walking out who we are in Christ?
1 Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace to me was not in vain. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I but the grace of God that was with me.
And here's Peter continually praying that we would have MORE grace...
2 Peter 1:2 May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.
2 Peter 3:8 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
What about sin's connection to grace?
Romans 6:4 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
It is through humility we receive more grace...
James 4:6 But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”
And here's John...
John 1:16 And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.
And here's Paul to Timothy his beloved spiritual son...
2 Tim 2:1 You then, my child, be strengthened by the grace that is in Christ Jesus
2 4:22 Tim The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.
I am not afraid that people will take me wrong. That's on them.
Titus 1:15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.
I will continue to preach the message of grace, until we see every form of sin bow.
I actually believe grace allows us to walk away from the dominion of sin as Paul declared.
And not just the "outward forms" but also the "inward forms".
And it doesn't happen by telling people what they can and can't do. It happens by them understanding the love and power of God. It happens through receiving and understanding grace.
And we can only give what we ourselves have received.
Talk doesn't transform, but His power does.
1 Co 4:20 For the kingdom of God does not consist in talk but in power.
And in regards to it being is His power that transforms us.
Here is my prayer:
Thank you Holy Spirit that you alone teach us, guide us, and give us grace to grow in Christ. It is your power that transforms us and I pray that people will embrace grace. In it's purest truest form. And then go and share with others. And just like John, Peter, and Paul they would pray for them to receive grace as well. So that we can get beyond this contention about "can we sin" and instead walk into "how can we truly love". So that we can reveal You to the world.
It almost happened to me, and I know her fairly well. I had to read it twice to be sure.
I personally think one of the things that make this discussion of grace difficult to understand is the fact that other things needed to understand are being left out. To truly study grace you must also look at other subjects; sin, repentance, justification, salvation, sanctification, forgiveness ect ect. It is like studying any other subject concerning God. You cannot study one subject without looking at others also.
It is like creating an "image" of God to represent God. It is completely impossible to create an image of God that reflects who God is. You cannot create an image of God that reflects every attribute of God. You can show some things like strength and power but where does love and kindness fit. Then you have the incommunicable attributes. How do you show immutability, omniscience, omnipresense ect. Impossible.
To study one part of something given us by God you must incule a study of others also. Without sin there is no need for grace. Without grace there is no sanctification. Without sactificstion there is no righteousness. One "part" of God includes all "parts" of God. Thus a study of Gods grace has to also include others that lead to and stem from Gods grace.
Here it seems we are trying to "define" grace by using "grace". Grace begins with God and ends with God but in the middle there is so much more. You cannot define the building of a house by looking at a finished house and saying "that is how you build a house".
It is like creating an "image" of God to represent God. It is completely impossible to create an image of God that reflects who God is. You cannot create an image of God that reflects every attribute of God. You can show some things like strength and power but where does love and kindness fit. Then you have the incommunicable attributes. How do you show immutability, omniscience, omnipresense ect. Impossible.
To study one part of something given us by God you must incule a study of others also. Without sin there is no need for grace. Without grace there is no sanctification. Without sactificstion there is no righteousness. One "part" of God includes all "parts" of God. Thus a study of Gods grace has to also include others that lead to and stem from Gods grace.
Here it seems we are trying to "define" grace by using "grace". Grace begins with God and ends with God but in the middle there is so much more. You cannot define the building of a house by looking at a finished house and saying "that is how you build a house".
James is telling us, true religion is loving people who can't take care of themselves. Widows and orphans.
Staying unstained from the world has a lot to with bridling our tongues. Encouraging one another. Remember Jesus said our love for one another is how the world would know we are His disciples. But this is a moot point, because loving people is how we don't sin. So instead of focusing on not sinning, how about we say what He actually commanded. That we love each other. And in love we fulfill the law.
The issue I have with this, He keeps us from sinning stuff, is that while it is true, it is HALF the story, it doesn't release the power to actually love people. It is straining at gnats, but swallowing a camel.
Freedom releases the power to love one another!!!
Gal 5:13 For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
A perfect example is your comment, many people think being "unstained from the world" is about us doing something to be holy, the context shows us it's actually pointing to our conduct with other people.
Not sinning is self-focused, loving people is Christ-focused.
Here's what that Scripture is actually referring to:
19Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; 20for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God. 21Therefore put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
v21 is the conclusion point of v19 and v20.
25But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.
v25: It's the law of liberty that actually leads us into functioning out of pure religion that you quoted. It's not the religion that means to bind, James is declaring TRUE religion which means there is a FALSE religion.
27Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.
v21 tells us that filthiness is not loving people.
v27 enforces this idea by saying to be unstained we must love one another.
But without an understanding of sin being empty of love the point is completely missed.
It doesn't at all mean what some people think it does. Missing the forest for the trees.
It's not about self-righteousness, it's about loving one another. As is most of the Bible.
People have replaced not sinning with self-righteousness. Instead of replacing not sinning with loving one another.
In my opinion...
There can be no complete Scriptural conversation about not sinning this side of the covenant that doesn't include the idea we are commanded to love one another. And that connection is drastically needed in the Body of Christ today.
Staying unstained from the world has a lot to with bridling our tongues. Encouraging one another. Remember Jesus said our love for one another is how the world would know we are His disciples. But this is a moot point, because loving people is how we don't sin. So instead of focusing on not sinning, how about we say what He actually commanded. That we love each other. And in love we fulfill the law.
The issue I have with this, He keeps us from sinning stuff, is that while it is true, it is HALF the story, it doesn't release the power to actually love people. It is straining at gnats, but swallowing a camel.
Freedom releases the power to love one another!!!
Gal 5:13 For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
A perfect example is your comment, many people think being "unstained from the world" is about us doing something to be holy, the context shows us it's actually pointing to our conduct with other people.
Not sinning is self-focused, loving people is Christ-focused.
Here's what that Scripture is actually referring to:
19Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; 20for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God. 21Therefore put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
v21 is the conclusion point of v19 and v20.
25But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.
v25: It's the law of liberty that actually leads us into functioning out of pure religion that you quoted. It's not the religion that means to bind, James is declaring TRUE religion which means there is a FALSE religion.
27Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.
v21 tells us that filthiness is not loving people.
v27 enforces this idea by saying to be unstained we must love one another.
But without an understanding of sin being empty of love the point is completely missed.
It doesn't at all mean what some people think it does. Missing the forest for the trees.
It's not about self-righteousness, it's about loving one another. As is most of the Bible.
People have replaced not sinning with self-righteousness. Instead of replacing not sinning with loving one another.
In my opinion...
There can be no complete Scriptural conversation about not sinning this side of the covenant that doesn't include the idea we are commanded to love one another. And that connection is drastically needed in the Body of Christ today.
V
Vigil
Guest
Yes; I never sought to dispute grace is given and that we are saved by grace. The concept of grace perhaps to me is much more simplified than it is for you, though that may be inexperience on my part.
To me grace is something received, but it requires "fertile soil" to take root. If you are not sincere, and still love the world, how can grace grow in infertile soil? Its also something that cannot be quantified thus it is infinite, yet it seems it must be refined through faithfulness and righteousness. If there was no requirement for grace (Faith in Jesus Christ) then all would possess grace regardless of following Christ or not, no?
The last part was what I was trying to emphasize in my comments. None of us deserve grace, it must be given. But how can one receive grace without faith? And faith is more than belief, but also obedience. Or do I have it backwards and is faith a consequence of grace? Or perhaps they are interchangeable? There are different views on this I'm sure.
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So your obviously have not read the Major or Minor prophets lately. Why did they pull out their hair?
"And half of their children spoke the language of Ashdod, and they could not speak the language of Judah, but only the language of each people.25 And I confronted them and cursed them and beat some of them and pulled out their hair. And I made them take an oath in the name of God, saying, “You shall not give your daughters to their sons, or take their daughters for your sons or for yourselves.26 Did not Solomon king of Israel sin on account of such women? Among the many nations there was no king like him, and he was beloved by his God, and God made him king over all Israel. Nevertheless, foreign women made even him to sin.27 Shall we then listen to you and do all this great evil and act treacherously against our God by marrying foreign women?” Neh. 13:24-27.
Oh, right! It was sin! This was actually the only example of a prophet pulling out hair. And it wasn't his own, but rather the women who had intermarried with the remaining Judeans against God's express wishes.
As for rending their garments instead, more a sign of mourning or grief.
"The tearing of one’s clothes is an ancient tradition among the Jews, and it is associated with mourning, grief, and loss. The first mention of someone tearing his garments is in Genesis. “When Reuben returned to the cistern and saw that Joseph was not there, he tore his clothes” (Genesis 37:29). A short time later, “Jacob tore his clothes, put on sackcloth and mourned for his son many days” (Genesis 37:34) when he thought that Joseph had been killed."
There were times when people should have torn their garments but did not. The prophet Jeremiah received the Word of God concerning a soon-coming judgment on Judah. Jeremiah faithfully wrote the prophecy in a scroll and delivered it to King Jehoiakim. The king listened to the first part of the prophecy, but then he took a knife, cut the scroll in pieces, and burned it in a brazier (Jeremiah 36:23). This impious act was met with chilling stoicism from his aides: “The king and all his attendants who heard all these words showed no fear, nor did they tear their clothes” (verse 24). If ever there was a time to tear one’s clothes, this was it; but these men had no fear of God, no remorse, no conviction of sin.
http://www.gotquestions.org/tear-clothes-Bible.html
Hmm! No conviction of sin! That is certainly what my yearly read-through- the -Bible tells me. I thought you were more fluent in the Scriptures, Lauren, when you were last here. Or did you get swept away in this hypergrace nonsense, which reinterprets the Bible, and the entire purpose and meaning of why Jesus came to save us? From our sins, right?
Then there is this beautiful call to repentance in the book of Joel, Just before he prophesies that on the Day of Pentecost, the Hoily Spirit will descend.
"Yet even now,” declares the Lord,
“return to me with all your heart,
with fasting, with weeping, and with mourning;
13 and rend your hearts and not your garments.”
Return to the Lord your God,
for he is gracious and merciful,
slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love;
and he relents over disaster.
14 Who knows whether he will not turn and relent,
and leave a blessing behind him,
a grain offering and a drink offering
for the Lord your God?" Joel 2:13
As far as your insults to me, you can veil it by not putting my name, as above, but you are still insulting me and holding grudges against me. I wonder what the living God thinks about that? Had you stayed a bit longer, you would have read my letter of apology. Well, that is water under the bridge.
At least I am honest! I directly quote the people who have posted things that are not Biblical and show them how and why I disagree. Because after 8 months of putting up with this lie, even getting taken in myself, despite my "pile of books and a Greek NT," I am tired of being pushed over by people who have an agenda. God graciously showed me where this hypergrace gospel was wrong and from the mouths of the people who were in fact pushing this take over of the BDF, why they were wrong. God is so good that when we go astray he brings us back. I pray that will happen to the people here who have been deceived by this false gospel. Even if I have to refute it point by point, using, yes - the Bible! And always the Greek NT. And of course, the Hebrew from time to time, although I am not as fluent in it as I once was.
I just had no idea that using the Bible and relying on it with the Holy Spirit leading is legalism or a lack of grace. Sad that sects of modern Christianity have come to this! (Speaking generally, of course, as you seem to think everything is "all about you.")
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Vigil
Guest
Wow. I completely agree, in that grace is sort of a "mystery" that you can't really fully comprehend like any aspect of God. It's a mechanism of how God operates, and you can't understand the whole "machine" if you don't look at all the parts. We can't ever understand the whole machine, but we can get somethings, and this observation you made really resonates with me because I am constantly astounded by how many dimensions there are to Gods Truth.