So what about the fourth commandment?

[posthuman]

This might be a shocker to you, but the same gospel was preached to the children of Israel in the wilderness.

you don't provide any justification for what you say here, so i assume you must be referring to Hebrews 4:2 -- but if so just like you ignore the entire context of Colossians chapter 2 when you mishandle the verse there about the shadow & the substance, you're ignoring the entire context of Hebrews chapter 3-4, in which it is in no uncertain terms understood that the good news that was given to those in the wilderness was the promise of rest, which they did not receive because they did not act in faith.
that is not the gospel of Jesus Christ, but the shadow of it, for Christ is the mystery ((by definition, the unrevealed thing)) of godliness and salvation which has been now revealed to us, but was unknown to those who lived under the law, and who had no rest from the sacrifice of animals.

but there remains a day of God's true rest, which is "today" and we who believe in Christ Jesus, the final sacrifice for sin, the finished work, do enter it.

 

[disciplemike]

For he spake in a certain place of the

seventh [day] on this wise,
And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
And in this [place] again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Seeing thereforeit remaineth that some must enter therein,
and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hebrews 4:4-6 (KJV, MBM)

 

[Crustyone]

I didn't read all of the posts, but I have read Matthew 12:1-13 [FONT=&quot]12 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot]3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? 6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’[a]you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10 and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus, they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 He said to them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. 14 But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.

The disciples were gathering food for themselves. We gather by working for money. Anything else is covered by the normal idea of doing good or bad. Only good is to be done on the Sabbath, "What else?"[/FONT]

 

[disciplemike]

I didn't read all of the posts, but I have read Matthew 12:1-13 12 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them.2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? 6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’[a]you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
9 Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10 and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus, they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”
11 He said to them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”
13 Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. 14 But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.

The disciples were gathering food for themselves. We gather by working for money. Anything else is covered by the normal idea of doing good or bad. Only good is to be done on the Sabbath, "What else?"

For a person who is hungry, and did not have opportunity to prepare the day before, I could understand why they were allowed to eat. And notice it didn't say they were gathering in bags, but eating as they went. God, (in my opinion - I can't speak for God), but I don't think He is looking to strike someone down for grabbing a little food because they are hungry on the Sabbath.
However, with that said, if a person is working on the Sabbath to pay for the newest IPhone or non-essential items, that might be a different story. I have said it several times, here in North America, we have a different world view. What we call "Making a living" does not look the same in most of the world.
Bottom line is this. The seventh-day Sabbath is an appointed time of God. That is a Biblical fact. What each person does with it - well, I guess they have to make that decision.

 

[Gladstone]

Concerning the shadow of things to come, Jesus Christ fulfilled Passover, Unleaven Bread, First Fruits, and Pentecost the first time around, and we await his second coming. Some understand and teach that Jesus Christ will fulfill the remaining three Feasts of the LORD at his second coming, which would begin at the Feast of Trumpets. Trumpets is the only Feast which occurs on the day the moon is sighted after the new moon beginning the seventh month. Be watchful for ye know not the day or hour of your Lord's return. The day and hour that the moon is sighted to begin Trumpets is not known, which is why we watch for it. This year it is sometime around October 3,4th, or so I've read because I'm no astronomer. Look at this passage where Paul tells them that he doesn't need to write them concerning the time of his return because they, being children of the light, already know.

Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10

If the Christian Church isn't observing the Feasts of the LORD, how should they know the appointed time of Jesus's return and doesn't that mean they are in darkness? Parts of the law are still unfulfilled, and those parts tell us when Jesus is to return. Trumpets is a Sabbath also, but it falls on Monday or Tuesday this year. Sin is transgression of the law. How might Jesus react finding those professing his name to be profaning the Sabbath at his return? Might he say, "Depart from me ye who work lawlessness, I never knew you?"

 

[FreeNChrist]

Concerning the shadow of things to come, Jesus Christ fulfilled Passover, Unleaven Bread, First Fruits, and Pentecost the first time around, and we await his second coming. Some understand and teach that Jesus Christ will fulfill the remaining three Feasts of the LORD at his second coming, which would begin at the Feast of Trumpets. Trumpets is the only Feast which occurs on the day the moon is sighted after the new moon beginning the seventh month. Be watchful for ye know not the day or hour of your Lord's return. The day and hour that the moon is sighted to begin Trumpets is not known, which is why we watch for it. This year it is sometime around October 3,4th, or so I've read because I'm no astronomer. Look at this passage where Paul tells them that he doesn't need to write them concerning the time of his return because they, being children of the light, already know.

Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10

If the Christian Church isn't observing the Feasts of the LORD, how should they know the appointed time of Jesus's return and doesn't that mean they are in darkness? Parts of the law are still unfulfilled, and those parts tell us when Jesus is to return. Trumpets is a Sabbath also, but it falls on Monday or Tuesday this year. Sin is transgression of the law. How might Jesus react finding those professing his name to be profaning the Sabbath at his return? Might he say, "Depart from me ye who work lawlessness, I never knew you?"

Jesus said the very purpose for His coming was to fulfill the Law. Are you saying He failed??

 

[posthuman]

For he spake in a certain place of the

seventh [day] on this wise,
And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
And in this [place] again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Seeing thereforeit remaineth that some must enter therein,
and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hebrews 4:4-6 (KJV, MBM)

in other words, you were wrong: the good news of the finished work of Jesus Christ was not preached to them in the wilderness.

instead, as it's written right here, the good news which is the promise of rest was preached to the Jews in the wilderness, that if they would keep the Law given to them at Sinai, and delivered through Moses thereafter, they would enter the promised land, and there, rest - but they did not either keep the law, nor did they have faith in Him.

that is not the gospel of the finished work of the Son of God -- keeping the law in order to enter into rest in Canaan is not the gospel. rest was preached to them, but they did not enter into it.
the sabbaths were to point toward rest: that it is God who sanctifies, but not having that faith, they did not receive rest.


the law did not give them rest. the sabbath did not give them rest. that's the argument being put forward here in the scripture: that rest is found in trusting in the finished work of the Son of God, that He alone sanctifies and justifies. keep reading.

you do comprehend what you quote, yes? without any context? without any comment? surely you don't mean to just snip a little bit out that could be misconstrued?
let's keep reading:

7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
​

Joshua did not give them rest.
Moses did not give them rest.
they did not receive rest from sabbath commands or observations, nor from any law, nor from entering into Canaan even after because of unbelief the first generation did not. those facts are supposed to teach us something, and it's not that gentiles should try to follow the law given to Jews because gentiles are somehow going to do it "better" and enter into God's rest that way.

all those things were shadows of rest -- but the substance is Christ.
that is why the scripture here plainly says that ceasing from our own works ((i.e. trying to establish righteousness by works & laws, without having faith in the One who actually sanctifies and justifies and imputes righteousness)) we do enter that rest

3 For we who have believed do enter that rest
​

that is that we enter rest by belief. not by observance of rite. not by entering a land and setting up camp. by faith, in the Son of God who has both sanctified and justified, both on the basis of faith, not of works.

how could anyone imagine that finding rest in Christ = disobedience?
this is the very One who says "come to me and I will give you rest"
so what then, by coming to Him, and through His faithfulness toward me, receiving rest, i have become disobedient??
that dog won't hunt.

 

[Gladstone]

Jesus said the very purpose for His coming was to fulfill the Law. Are you saying He failed??

I'm pointing out the fact that Jesus fulfilled 4 of 7 Feasts of the LORD and that he will fulfill the remaining Feasts of the LORD at his second coming. Certain parts are yet to be fulfilled by Jesus Christ. He is risen and will return.

 

[Gladstone]

Jesus said the very purpose for His coming was to fulfill the Law. Are you saying He failed??

Do you post ridiculous questions to move the page forward to hide the truth?

Anyone reading this, please read post #1025 on page 52 as well. Thank you.

 

[disciplemike]

in other words, you were wrong: the good news of the finished work of Jesus Christ was not preached to them in the wilderness.

instead, as it's written right here, the good news which is the promise of rest was preached to the Jews in the wilderness, that if they would keep the Law given to them at Sinai, and delivered through Moses thereafter, they would enter the promised land, and there, rest - but they did not either keep the law, nor did they have faith in Him.

that is not the gospel of the finished work of the Son of God -- keeping the law in order to enter into rest in Canaan is not the gospel. rest was preached to them, but they did not enter into it.
the sabbaths were to point toward rest: that it is God who sanctifies, but not having that faith, they did not receive rest.


the law did not give them rest. the sabbath did not give them rest. that's the argument being put forward here in the scripture: that rest is found in trusting in the finished work of the Son of God, that He alone sanctifies and justifies. keep reading.

you do comprehend what you quote, yes? without any context? without any comment? surely you don't mean to just snip a little bit out that could be misconstrued?
let's keep reading:

7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
​

Joshua did not give them rest.
Moses did not give them rest.
they did not receive rest from sabbath commands or observations, nor from any law, nor from entering into Canaan even after because of unbelief the first generation did not. those facts are supposed to teach us something, and it's not that gentiles should try to follow the law given to Jews because gentiles are somehow going to do it "better" and enter into God's rest that way.

all those things were shadows of rest -- but the substance is Christ.
that is why the scripture here plainly says that ceasing from our own works ((i.e. trying to establish righteousness by works & laws, without having faith in the One who actually sanctifies and justifies and imputes righteousness)) we do enter that rest

3 For we who have believed do enter that rest
​

that is that we enter rest by belief. not by observance of rite. not by entering a land and setting up camp. by faith, in the Son of God who has both sanctified and justified, both on the basis of faith, not of works.

how could anyone imagine that finding rest in Christ = disobedience?
this is the very One who says "come to me and I will give you rest"
so what then, by coming to Him, and through His faithfulness toward me, receiving rest, i have become disobedient??
that dog won't hunt.

this is why I don't reply to you. you twist words to try to make yourself look wise. it is not fooling anyone. bye now.

Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where
[is] the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk [therein].
Jeremiah 6:16 (KJV, MBM)

 

[posthuman]

Concerning the shadow of things to come, Jesus Christ fulfilled Passover, Unleaven Bread, First Fruits, and Pentecost

I'm pointing out the fact that Jesus fulfilled 4 of 7 Feasts

let's look at what you don't think He fulfilled:

the feast of trumpets -- which commemorated the giving of the covenant at Sinai, which was broken.
well He offered us a new covenant, on the basis of faith, in His own body and blood.
fulfilled in Him, check.

the feast of tabernacles -- which commemorated the Jews living in tents after being brought out of Egypt.
well as John writes, He pitched His own tent among us, the tent of our flesh ((as Paul also calls it)), and every day on earth we are celebrating this, living in our own tents of flesh having been brought out of death and darkness and into His glorious life & light.
fulfilled in Him, check.

the atonement -- which He died on the cross for, at which point the veil was torn, and then presented His own blood on the altar in heaven for, and forever stands daily making intercession in the holy of holies in heaven, before the throne of God, for us.
fulfilled in Him, check.


so Gladstone -- i do believe you are mistaken & have miscounted.

 

[FreeNChrist]

I'm pointing out the fact that Jesus fulfilled 4 of 7 Feasts of the LORD and that he will fulfill the remaining Feasts of the LORD at his second coming. Certain parts are yet to be fulfilled by Jesus Christ. He is risen and will return.

So you are saying Jesus failed. Got it.

 

[FreeNChrist]

he also says Jesus Christ is the beast 666 which comes out of the earth.
so i would take what he says with some salt =\

Thanks for the heads up.

 

[posthuman]

Thanks for the heads up.

not making this up.

check the link:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/139525-revelation-13-jesus-christ-667-a-3.html#post2724552

talk about "making a first impression" !!

i just don't know what to even do with you, Gladstone.

 

[FreeNChrist]

not making this up.

check the link:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/139525-revelation-13-jesus-christ-667-a-3.html#post2724552

talk about "making a first impression" !!

i just don't know what to even do with you, Gladstone.

There seems to be an influx of folks with heretical beliefs recently.

 

[posthuman]

the atonement

this is another one, by the way, that i think bears some serious explanation from you lot that say we as believers are bound to literally obey Torah, especially the feasts.

how are we as being found in Christ supposed to obey the Law concerning Yom Kippur?
there is no temple of stone. before it was razed, the veil separating the holy of holies was torn top to bottom.
our High Priest is none other than Jesus Christ, who makes intercession for us daily in heaven before the throne, and He is not even a Levite -- the priesthood is changed, and so has the law.

so if we're supposed to obey Torah, what? are we supposed to spit on the cross and Christ's own sacrifice, and sacrifice a goat now?

how would that not be blasphemous?

((but some of you believe that for 1,000 literal years Christ will be enthroned in Jerusalem while the temple described in Ezekiel stands there and such blasphemous sacrifices are carried out right before His eyes unceasingly!))

seriously -- don't give me, "do a word study" or quote to me that this was given to the Hebrews for the Levites to perform as a lasting ordinance -- but today, where rubber meets road and hand grabs the plow, what do you expect all believers to do to honor this, if you are teaching that we are all under the written ordinances in the Torah?
and how should we not be blaspheming if we do it?

it is no good to just say "obey!" without teaching how this should be done, any more than it is good to tell an hungry person "be filled!" without giving him something to eat.

thanks

 

[Gladstone]

Yes, I believe the beast of the earth, 666, will be named Jesus Christ. It is not a farfetched claim. If the beast intends to deceive the whole world into worshiping him, then why wouldn't he take the name of our Salvation? The serpent is the most clever beast, and that would probably be the most clever tactic to deceive Christians because they would not follow anyone of any other name. When I posted that information, I half expected most of you to say, "well duh." Please take everything I say with salt. Please by all means ignore any conclusion that I have drawn, but please read the verses I reference and hear what God is trying to tell us. And please hate me for his name's sake because I rejoice in it. Thank you Jesus Christ for your sacrifice, please ask the Father to forgive me of my sins, and please bless these people to hear your voice and to understand your will and to prepare us all for your return. Thank you Jesus Christ, who came in the flesh.

 

[garee]

It was only on the Day of Atonement when the High Priest would go into the Holy of Holies.
I agree that Messiah is the Ultimate Atonement. What we don't agree on is the timing, and whether believers should still hold sacred this particular day on the calendar. Why would we not?

The reformation is not complete.

Its seems like the ceremonial laws are a stumbling block to the Judaeizers?

When did the refomation begin? What was the signal ? What is its end goal? What time period was it restored to? What does only in meat and fleshly ordinances mean in respect only until the refomation . Can we judge one another by them?

Isa 1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

Why does God hate the appointed feasts to include the Sabbaths. What is he weary to bear them?

Is the reference below the prophecy that announced the first century refomation in advance. This is in regard to the reformation when the veil was rent when Christ said; it is finished..?

Isa 1:26 And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.

Is the faithful City the bride of Christ according to the new named His people called Christians, previously calling the Jews in respect to an inward Jew?.

Did the refomation restore the order to time period the Judges when there was no outward representation. This was before the apostate Jewish elders rejected worshiping God as King by faith (not sen) and they wanted a king like in all the other pagan religions of the world? Are the counselors the word of God that men walk by?

 

[posthuman]

Yes, I believe the beast of the earth, 666, will be named Jesus Christ. It is not a farfetched claim. If the beast intends to deceive the whole world into worshiping him, then why wouldn't he take the name of our Salvation?

well it sounds different when you put it that way!
what i hope you mean is this

Then he said to his disciples,
“The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them."
(Luke 17:22-23)​

and

He replied:
"Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not follow them."
(Luke 21:8)​

but i'm not quite sure that is it.

 

[posthuman]

this is why I don't reply to you. you twist words to try to make yourself look wise.

what is it i'm twisting?

you're pulling out just the verses that mention sabbath, and ignoring all the surrounding conversation that explains what the book is saying.

i'm showing you the context, and how together it all points to Christ.
not to show "i am wise" but to show that Christ is glorified.
so what is it you are doing, saying
"i am too wise to answer you" ?
"i am too knowledgeable to give an explanation or reply" ?
you don't seem to be glorifying Christ, whatever it is you are doing.

when you say things like "you twist things" with no explanation whatsoever, and you simply snip things out of context with no justification or explanation, it sure looks like the opposite of your accusation is true, and that the reason you don't reply to me is that you cannot.

most of the time, mike, what i do is ask you questions, and you summarily dismiss them.
here i've asked a few direct, practical questions about how we should celebrate feasts which would, by the letter of the Torah, require killing animals for sanctification by their blood - which seems like directly abusing the sacrifice of Christ, our own Lamb - but have you even bothered to reply to those?
are you teaching Torah, or not?

the scripture requires that those who are mature in the faith rebuke and correct bad doctrine, and that all of us be able to answer questions and give reason for our sure hope.
the book does not say "ignore people and refuse to answer them" -- even of fools, the book says answer them, lest they continue on in their foolishness ((though do not answer them foolishly and so be just as foolish yourself)).