Let's Take a Deeper Look at this Hyper Stuff

[ukok102nak]

Yes, that is very hyper-grace!

In the minds of some people - that would look like an invitation for lawlessness and it is just a license to sin all you want now. This is just a natural, carnal mind that think those thoughts.

There is a much better life - believe in Christ and what He has done and walk in freedom and let His life manifest in and through us to others. Let's believe in the great work our Lord has done for us.

:haha: indeed my brethren my fellow my brother
and sisters indeed
for theres no such thing as hyper grace and never at all

. ... that hypher grace thing is a kind of way to confuse all
so that they could published a book and make a treasure on it
here in this reality alone
NOT IN HEAVEN ABOVE

 

[ukok102nak]

Where are all these hyper-grace churches then???


I want to go to a super-hyper-califragilistic grace church.

:haha: you sound like that :rofl: brethren of ours grandpa
just take care of that heart
and soul always

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Understood.

What's interesting is that Hyper-Gracers are accused of not addressing sin, but when we confront PeterJens with his slander and misrepresentations (which is sin), it all of a sudden becomes a wrong thing to do?

I've had opportunity to interact and observe PeterJens a bit longer than you have, and take note: As long as Peter thinks he can get or has you on 'his side' he will indulge you - to a point. When it comes to a point where he's crossed the line one too many times for you (and that time will come - give it time), and you express that to him publicly, he will turn on you like bad yogurt. He'll first apologize for making you angry, but then add that perhaps you have unresolved personal emotional issues and that's why you're 'acting' the way you are, and perhaps you need some help. I've seen this pattern repeated a few times. Just be aware of it.

Grace and peace,
-JGIG

Well, I was asked to not talk about this person, but after sleeping on it, I realized it was only people who don't say the "right" things about this person who are going to get any flack.

I am very aware of the things peter does that are not good. I could run down the list of them, like making a hefty post that is actually good, but then throwing one nasty comment in, usually at the very end. Or like his penchant for labeling. And if I made a long list of what peter does that you don't like, I would be commended and approved of.

But I don't want to jump on the stomp peter bandwagon, no matter HOW badly he can act here. I want to love peter. And I can quite easily forgive his unkind words and aggressive statements in order to keep on loving him and talking with him. And I realize that's a problem for some of you and that even though I understand and agree with most of what you preach, the problem is that I keep talking in love to peter when others have become fed up with him and have determined that he must stop his behaviors before I should do that. But without love, he's not going to stop them.

How anyone can see a man asserting that only outward murder is murder in Gods' eyes to then see the truth that anger and resentment in the heart is, in fact, murder in Gods' eyes, is no growth in truth, is strange to me. I see great growth there. I see the fruit of talking with peter in love, forgiveness and patience because of this change toward truth. And since I see it, I won't jump on the bandwagon. I don't care if it makes me as hateful as peter to anyone elses mind.

So while I agree with most of what you preach, I don't agree with how you deal with peters inappropriate remarks. I don't care if that makes me the enemy too. I will continue to ignore his aggressive remarks and focus on whatever IS good in his posts because I have seen the fruit of doing as our Lord commands us. I realize you can't see it though. And I'm okay with people being angry at me. It won't make me stop talking to peter with love and forgiveness and patience until he can see what I see.

 

[Grace777x70]

Well, I was asked to not talk about this person, but after sleeping on it, I realized it was only people who don't say the "right" things about this person who are going to get any flack.

I am very aware of the things peter does that are not good. I could run down the list of them, like making a hefty post that is actually good, but then throwing one nasty comment in, usually at the very end. Or like his penchant for labeling. And if I made a long list of what peter does that you don't like, I would be commended and approved of.

But I don't want to jump on the stomp peter bandwagon, no matter HOW badly he can act here. I want to love peter. And I can quite easily forgive his unkind words and aggressive statements in order to keep on loving him and talking with him. And I realize that's a problem for some of you and that even though I understand and agree with most of what you preach, the problem is that I keep talking in love to peter when others have become fed up with him and have determined that he must stop his behaviors before I should do that. But without love, he's not going to stop them.

How anyone can see a man asserting that only outward murder is murder in Gods' eyes to then see the truth that anger and resentment in the heart is, in fact, murder in Gods' eyes, is no growth in truth, is strange to me. I see great growth there. I see the fruit of talking with peter in love, forgiveness and patience because of this change toward truth. And since I see it, I won't jump on the bandwagon. I don't care if it makes me as hateful as peter to anyone elses mind.

So while I agree with most of what you preach, I don't agree with how you deal with peters inappropriate remarks. I don't care if that makes me the enemy too. I will continue to ignore his aggressive remarks and focus on whatever IS good in his posts because I have seen the fruit of doing as our Lord commands us. I realize you can't see it though. And I'm okay with people being angry at me. It won't make me stop talking to peter with love and forgiveness and patience until he can see what I see.

That is good that you are doing that with Peter. Most of us have had a way longer history in dealing with this behavior. There is a time to "shake the dust off our feet" from people that continue to do the same things.

This is not saying that people don't love when we need to do this. Sometimes this kind of response is needed in a brethren situation where the behavior continues to be the same. Loving Peter is also leaving him alone for others to deal with him under the direction of the Lord.

You may be able to get through to him and so the "baton" has been changed over into your hands and we do wish you well in your endeavors and we do desire restoration but not before there is repentance as it would do Peter and others no good in the long run.

Just my thoughts on this..

 

[Willie-T]

Emotional relativism.

My objection to hyper-grace is not that people themselves accept Christs love, know His forgiveness,
walk in the Spirit, have love and faith growing in their hearts. This is beautiful.

It is when a person says, I am not following OSAS, or I see beauty in the law, and desire to walk
righteously and in purity, they are labelled legalists and deniers of the gospel that I have a problem.
To say reading the law or reading the sermon on the mount bring condemnation and is evil, it a
big spiritual problem. To then build on this and create a mystical gnostic theology, is going into
heresy.

There is always a broad spectrum of expressions and aspirations within the christian body.

Now where ever you sit on this spectrum, you are probably happy with it, and if I come across
as an enemy, then I am evil, slanderous and wrong, but if I am closer to your position I am just
speaking the truth in love.

This illustrates how belief gets translated into sin, which is always a dangerous road to walk.

The other problem is changing the meaning of concepts and ideas, means you can be very happy
with a statement, but mean the opposite of another believer reading the same statement but seeing
something very different.

My answer to this is to reduce relationship and complexity to that of a child, and laying things out
simply. If people bring love and life amen, if they miss-behave and do evil acts, then that needs
to be confronted.

Now what I am accused of is expressing my point of view. If you think this is sin, then I have a problem
with your sense of morality, and I would describe this as hyper-legalism.

Another indication of hyper-legalism is saying fear is sin, or doing things for yourself is sin, or setting
your own goals and failing to meet them is sin, or anything that is not "christian" is sin. These would
fall into OCD psychological disorders, where people cannot distinguish between good, loving sincere
behaviour and real sin, or harmful behaviour to others, oneself and God.

I think the problem here is that most grace people express what they have and invite others to enjoy God's freedom also.

However, most "non-grace" people seem bent on telling others that it is "necessary" to follow what they do, or they are not in Christ.

 

[ladylynn]

Not sure how Joseph Mattera can say what he said in his article. It's taking a huge paint brush and wiping out the things I believe all together and saying instead what he THINKS I believe. It's ignoring the person standing right in front of you and applying instead what you think that person is reeeeeaaaalllly saying and that person you see isn't even there.

The 8 signs of hyper grace churches he writes about may be other people in his observation but no one I know here on CC or in my life here in NY., nor are they churches you would find me sitting in. I understand what AuntieAunt is talking about when she posted the joke about crazy pills.

 

[UnderGrace]

I understand what you are saying, we are called to love those that persecute us.

It won't make me stop talking to peter with love and forgiveness and patience until he can see what I see.

Just be careful though because it may be you see what he sees.

Oh foolish Galatians......

Romans 16: 17-18

Well, I was asked to not talk about this person, but after sleeping on it, I realized it was only people who don't say the "right" things about this person who are going to get any flack.

I am very aware of the things peter does that are not good. I could run down the list of them, like making a hefty post that is actually good, but then throwing one nasty comment in, usually at the very end. Or like his penchant for labeling. And if I made a long list of what peter does that you don't like, I would be commended and approved of.

But I don't want to jump on the stomp peter bandwagon, no matter HOW badly he can act here. I want to love peter. And I can quite easily forgive his unkind words and aggressive statements in order to keep on loving him and talking with him. And I realize that's a problem for some of you and that even though I understand and agree with most of what you preach, the problem is that I keep talking in love to peter when others have become fed up with him and have determined that he must stop his behaviors before I should do that. But without love, he's not going to stop them.

How anyone can see a man asserting that only outward murder is murder in Gods' eyes to then see the truth that anger and resentment in the heart is, in fact, murder in Gods' eyes, is no growth in truth, is strange to me. I see great growth there. I see the fruit of talking with peter in love, forgiveness and patience because of this change toward truth. And since I see it, I won't jump on the bandwagon. I don't care if it makes me as hateful as peter to anyone elses mind.

So while I agree with most of what you preach, I don't agree with how you deal with peters inappropriate remarks. I don't care if that makes me the enemy too. I will continue to ignore his aggressive remarks and focus on whatever IS good in his posts because I have seen the fruit of doing as our Lord commands us. I realize you can't see it though. And I'm okay with people being angry at me. It won't make me stop talking to peter with love and forgiveness and patience until he can see what I see.

 

[ukok102nak]

:haha: yeah thats it
WE BELIEVED IN ALL THE WORKS OF OUR LORD CHRIST JESUS OUR SAVIOUR
THE OLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD
AND ALL THAT IS HOLY
NOW I REMEMBER HOW THE ELDERS PRAY . ...
YOUR NOT ONLY MENTIONING HIS NAME
BUT ALSO ALL THE GOOD WORKS THAT HIS DONE FOR THOSE HUMANS
FOR THAT IS THE WILL OF OUR LORD GOD THE FATHER ALMIGHTY
WHO IS GOOD AND CANNOT LIE

~;> I BET SOMEONE OR SOME PEOPLE HEARD THIS BEFORE AND
THEY LOST THEIR SALVATION BECAUSE THEY COULDNT KEEF UP
THE GOOD WORKS OF WHAT IS GOOD AND CANNOT LIE
THATS WHY
THEYVE BEEN EASILY CORRUPTED BY THOSE EVIL THINGS
SO THAT MAY NOT ONLY TWIST THE WORDS
BUT ALSO CHANGE IT
HOPE THEY CHANGE NOW
UNTIL THE TIME COMES

 

[Willie-T]

I understand what you are saying, we are called to love those that persecute us.



Just be careful though because it may be you see what he sees.

Oh foolish Galatians......

Romans 16: 17-18

I submit that if we do NOT see what the other person sees, then perhaps we should refrain from speaking... except to try to understand.

To see what another sees, is not necessarily to agree with them.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

That is good that you are doing that with Peter. Most of us have had a way longer history in dealing with this behavior. There is a time to "shake the dust off our feet" from people that continue to do the same things.

This is not saying that people don't love when we need to do this. Sometimes this kind of response is needed in a brethren situation where the behavior continues to be the same. Loving Peter is also leaving him alone for others to deal with him under the direction of the Lord.

You may be able to get through to him and so the "baton" has been changed over into your hands and we do wish you well in your endeavors and we do desire restoration but not before there is repentance as it would do Peter and others no good in the long run.

Just my thoughts on this..

Actually, I joined the site ten days before you did.
Unless you changed your name, I have been dealing with peter for 10 days longer.
What repentance are you saying you would like to see in peter before you will restore him?
And if he doesn't see what he does, how would be the best way to accomplish this?

 

[ukok102nak]

:haha: yeah thats it
WE BELIEVED IN ALL THE WORKS OF OUR LORD CHRIST JESUS OUR SAVIOUR
THE OLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD
AND ALL THAT IS HOLY
NOW I REMEMBER HOW THE ELDERS PRAY . ...
YOUR NOT ONLY MENTIONING HIS NAME
BUT ALSO ALL THE GOOD WORKS THAT HIS DONE FOR THOSE HUMANS
FOR THAT IS THE WILL OF OUR LORD GOD THE FATHER ALMIGHTY
WHO IS GOOD AND CANNOT LIE

~;> I BET SOMEONE OR SOME PEOPLE HEARD THIS BEFORE AND
THEY LOST THEIR SALVATION BECAUSE THEY COULDNT KEEF UP
THE GOOD WORKS OF WHAT IS GOOD AND CANNOT LIE
THATS WHY
THEYVE BEEN EASILY CORRUPTED BY THOSE EVIL THINGS
SO THAT MAY NOT ONLY TWIST THE WORDS
BUT ALSO CHANGE IT
HOPE THEY CHANGE NOW
UNTIL THE TIME COMES

AGAIN ... .

:haha: yeah thats it
WE BELIEVED IN ALL THE WORKS OF OUR LORD CHRIST JESUS OUR SAVIOUR
THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD
AND ALL THAT IS HOLY
NOW I REMEMBER HOW THE ELDERS PRAY . ...
YOUR NOT ONLY MENTIONING HIS NAME
BUT ALSO ALL THE GOOD WORKS THAT HIS DONE FOR THOSE HUMANS
FOR THAT IS THE WILL OF OUR LORD GOD THE FATHER ALMIGHTY
WHO IS GOOD AND CANNOT LIE

~;> I BET SOMEONE OR SOME PEOPLE HEARD THIS BEFORE AND
THEY LOST THEIR SALVATION BECAUSE THEY COULDNT KEEP UP
THE GOOD WORKS OF WHAT IS GOOD AND CANNOT LIE
THATS WHY
THEYVE BEEN EASILY CORRUPTED BY THOSE EVIL THINGS
SO THAT MAY NOT ONLY TWIST THE WORDS
BUT ALSO CHANGE IT
HOPE THEY CHANGE NOW
UNTIL THE TIME COMES

 

[UnderGrace]

I was trying to make an analogy, seeing as in believing.

See it as you wish, lest you call me a sick puppy again.

Leaving this thread now.

I submit that if we do NOT see what the other person sees, then perhaps we should refrain from speaking... except to try to understand.

To see what another sees, is not necessarily to agree with them.

 

[Willie-T]

Actually, I joined the site ten days before you did.
Unless you changed your name, I have been dealing with peter for 10 days longer.
What repentance are you saying you would like to see in peter before you will restore him?
And if he doesn't see what he does, how would be the best way to accomplish this?

I think what 777 means is he has been hounded by Peter, while you and I just watched.

 

[Willie-T]

I was trying to make an analogy, seeing as in believing.

See it as you wish, lest you call me a sick puppy again.

Leaving this thread now.

Uh, it was "ill puppy", by the way. LOL When I use the word "sick" it means something MUCH stronger.

 

[Grace777x70]

Actually, I joined the site ten days before you did.
Unless you changed your name, I have been dealing with peter for 10 days longer.
What repentance are you saying you would like to see in peter before you will restore him?
And if he doesn't see what he does, how would be the best way to accomplish this?

You did not have the constant exchanges like some of us have had with him. That is my point about "dealings with this behavior". We have had extensive dealings with his behavior.

As far as what I would like see to happen in him.

1) I would like to see him stop with his attacks on people that don't agree with him such as calling them names.

2) I would like him to accurately represent what is really being spoken. Some of us have said the same thing over 50x times and yet he says the complete opposite. Here is a link below that explains this mindset.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...e-deeper-look-hyper-stuff-21.html#post2726411

If he doesn't see what he sees and continues with this behavior ..then we need to keep on with walking in Romans 16:17.

He doesn't have to agree as we can disagree too without mis-representing what is being said. No one is saying that he has to agree with what others believe - it's the behavior that is bad and divisive that is being dealt with here.

I could care less if he thought that Donald and Daffy Duck were the 2 witnesses in Revelation. What he believes is not the issue.

As, I said...if you feel the Lord wants you to try to deal with him - then go for it. I speak his name before the Father and ask that he be blessed and grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord when ever I have him come up in my mind.

In the meantime - I do know without a shadow of any doubt that I am to do a Romans 16:17 with him now. You may have something different and that is great. Follow the Lord inside you.

 

[gb9]

I think what 777 means is he has been hounded by Peter, while you and I just watched.

just to add to this, it gets tiresome to try to have a conversation with someone who will not read and consider what you write, they just tell you what you believe, no matter what you say, and still want to argue even if you agree with them. sadly, as grace 777x7 said, it is best to greatly limit interaction with some people.

 

[LaurenTM]

So while I agree with most of what you preach, I don't agree with how you deal with peters inappropriate remarks. I don't care if that makes me the enemy too. I will continue to ignore his aggressive remarks and focus on whatever IS good in his posts because I have seen the fruit of doing as our Lord commands us. I realize you can't see it though. And I'm okay with people being angry at me. It won't make me stop talking to peter with love and forgiveness and patience until he can see what I see.

what you need to understand, is that this forum, like all others, has what is called TOS...terms of service

these include speaking about others between members

therefore, I will ask you nicely again to kindly stop the chatter about another member

the TOS are for the good of the entire community

I would like to remind you that you are entitled to your opinion regarding anyone here; however, the TOS are for EVERYONE

if you take this personal as you did the last time, that is your perception

kindly respect the op

thank you

 

[ladylynn]

Well, I was asked to not talk about this person, but after sleeping on it, I realized it was only people who don't say the "right" things about this person who are going to get any flack.

I am very aware of the things peter does that are not good. I could run down the list of them, like making a hefty post that is actually good, but then throwing one nasty comment in, usually at the very end. Or like his penchant for labeling. And if I made a long list of what peter does that you don't like, I would be commended and approved of.

But I don't want to jump on the stomp peter bandwagon, no matter HOW badly he can act here. I want to love peter. And I can quite easily forgive his unkind words and aggressive statements in order to keep on loving him and talking with him. And I realize that's a problem for some of you and that even though I understand and agree with most of what you preach, the problem is that I keep talking in love to peter when others have become fed up with him and have determined that he must stop his behaviors before I should do that. But without love, he's not going to stop them.

How anyone can see a man asserting that only outward murder is murder in Gods' eyes to then see the truth that anger and resentment in the heart is, in fact, murder in Gods' eyes, is no growth in truth, is strange to me. I see great growth there. I see the fruit of talking with peter in love, forgiveness and patience because of this change toward truth. And since I see it, I won't jump on the bandwagon. I don't care if it makes me as hateful as peter to anyone elses mind.

So while I agree with most of what you preach, I don't agree with how you deal with peters inappropriate remarks. I don't care if that makes me the enemy too. I will continue to ignore his aggressive remarks and focus on whatever IS good in his posts because I have seen the fruit of doing as our Lord commands us. I realize you can't see it though. And I'm okay with people being angry at me. It won't make me stop talking to peter with love and forgiveness and patience until he can see what I see.

I have not read your posts to PJ or his to you so I don't know about his change of heart. I have no problem what so ever with your taking time to explain things to him or anyone. If someone told you not to talk to PJ I don't think anyone can ask that of you. That is your business and you should keep on talking to whoever you want to. I'm not on a bandwagon nor am I beckoning anyone to join me. I don't think you are hateful at all Stunnedbygrace. I've liked many of your posts and see you to be a kind and thoughtful person.

I don't however take time to read PJs since by the first 3 sentences he is telling me what I think and why. Just a few days ago I answered one of his questions directed specifically to me and he did it again. So every so often I do check him out and reply to a post he directs at me., But so far sadly haven't seen him try to relate to me as me but he relates to his idea of me.

For me., to continue to try and convince others of what I believe if they won't accept what I say has proven out to me to be a waste of time and effort.

We each have to come to our own conclusions about relating to those who won't relate to us. How many times do I need to hear I'm a heretic to get the message it doesn't matter what I say and they are not hearing me? What is the point? It only makes for silly wasted words imo. God is able to change minds and since He did it with me I know He will do it with anyone here as well. I'm for you not against you Stunnedbygrace. I don't think anyone else is against you here either. Blessings!! ladylynn

 

[LaurenTM]

HEY ~ I have reported the convo on jens...it's enough please

you say you don't like his posts...so then, leave them alone

we should not be discussing another member this way

thank you

 

[LaurenTM]

you know, JGIG goes to alot of trouble to post and add to the discussion

I repost what she wrote

it all goes south again

there are many threads on judgement and there is a prayer forum and there is the misc thread and the suggestion thread and the speak your mind thread

maybe this thread has run its course?

more than half the content is off topic or attacks

maybe it's just me and I ate lemons for breakfast, but I am tired of the constant derail...not just this thread...but all over..and the constant way the convo becomes about a person or the people posting