Let's Take a Deeper Look at this Hyper Stuff

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popeye said:
Show me where Jesus took judgement UPON HIMSELF.

He took sin,that removed judgement.


Otherwise you have to say he took punishment for sin. Committed sin.

You also have to put the LOF somewhere in/on the cross.

Stop calling me names and post your verses.
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The wages of sin is death. At the Cross God not only judged our sins, He takes upon Himself the judgment that should have been ours. Jesus stood in our place and made our just punishment His own. He took it all. There is none left for we who are in Him. To deny that, is to deny the efficacy of the cross, and to make a mockery of Jesus suffering and His dying for us.
 
FreeNChrist said:
The wages of sin is death. At the Cross God not only judged our sins, He takes upon Himself the judgment that should have been ours. Jesus stood in our place and made our just punishment His own. He took it all. There is none left for we who are in Him. To deny that, is to deny the efficacy of the cross, and to make a mockery of Jesus suffering and His dying for us.
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No verses.

You have no verses.

He took SIN. our sin,upon himself.

He was NOT punished.
He did NOT take upon himself the LOF.
 
popeye said:
The earthly family is an example of the heavenly.

God uses this analogy.

Nothing new,nothing perverted,no boggey man.

So what do you guys do?

You take an evil perverted child beater as your template.

Well,I can take a little better picture of God than that.

So,you guys think that there is no such thing as disciple,right?

God never has and never will discipline a believer.

You think when a child does wrong,and say,steals money out of momma's purse,or takes a candy bar from the store,any CORRECTION would be either beating him senseless,or breaking his legs.

Disciple,correction,JUDGEMENT,is all very normal,w
Very necessary family health.

That is WHY,when we sin,(stray off course),and refuse correction,we end up in the perfect storm,because one of two things will happen. Either God will judge you,(as in Corinthians,Miriam,David),or even worse,God will let you off the hook due to your luke warm nothing walk.

This WHY the word says " TO WHOM MUCH IS GIVEN,MUCH Is REQUIRED."

"I WOULD THAT MOT ALL BE TEACHERS,THEY ARE HELD TO A STRICTER JUDGEMENT"
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When we get saved, we enter into a whole new relationship with God because of His Son. I used to believe exactly the way you do about "correction" but like I said, I've since learned differently. Life with it's dyer consequences hits with enough force when we are out of God's will. We are our own worst enemy., and sin, the world and the devil are a close 2nd.

The sheep goes astray and he gets caught in the brier bushes and needs the Good Shepherd to get him out. All the while the sheep is getting scratched., bleeding from cuts as he tries to de-tangle himself from the mess he got into. He is also going through the emotional journey of being filled with fear. Alone and at the mercy of the elements., the sheep goes through a vast array of consequences for not following the Good Shepherd. I have not even mentioned the ravenous wolves and assorted other enemies that are out there aside from briers scratching and causing bleeding. Many will be attached by wolves. The Shepherd didn't cause this on the sheep. The Good Shepherd is where He has always been.

The sheep learns first hand he is totally dependent on the Good Shepherd and soon learns how to stay close after straying once or a few times. The sheep may even have some major scars left over after straying and depending on how long he strayed.,many scars. But the Good Shepherd did not put them there.

We most often are disciplined (trained) by the "Word" and brought to a place of "repentance" in which our minds are "changed" because we see the futility of being outside of His will for us. But the Lord is never making us "pay" for our disobedience. Jesus paid for the sin and judgment we deserve. I see discipline as something very different now. But often times when Christians are out of God's will they are 'not' reading His Word, they are not going to church or listening to teaching on the Word. So every day frustrations come about and since they are not abiding they are not able to deal well with those frustrations that come and are weak and powerless., no strength to overcome by themselves. But it is not God's doing. He did not put those consequences upon the son. It was the son getting away from the provision of the Good Shepherd.

Judgment is not on the believer in Christ anymore. That is a major truth to hold to as sons. It is a GREAT spiritual truth that translates into our daily lives. God does not send sickness and death to teach us lessons. :eek: That is confusion and He is not the God of confusion. It is the devil who comes to kill., steal and destroy us. Jesus came to give us life., and that more abundantly. John 10:10

Many believers do hold to the idea that God will break the legs of the sheep to save them. YIKES that is a lie from the enemy to keep us chained up in confusion about the goodness of God in Christ for us and His intentions for us. What a picture of the Father!! And especially when Jesus said if we have seen Him we have seen the Father.

And what a lack of understanding Christians have about the CROSS and what Jesus did when He hung there and took our judgement, punishment and our sicknesses. Isaiah 53 He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.

There is NO MORE condemnation. We are sons. When the prodigal son left his father's house, it was not the father's fault the son suffered. The father was there all along the same place he always was and when the son finally came to his senses, the father was running to him to welcome the son back. That is the picture I have of my Heavenly Father.
 
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emjcares said:
Isaiah 53King James Version (KJV)

53 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
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Your verses say that sin was laid upon him.
Speaking of the abuse of the romans.
That was a prophecy of his arrest and trial mockery. No LOF was placed on him at the cross.

He was JUDGED by both the romans and the jews.

THEY FOUND NOTHING.

The whole idea that he went to the cross,to have the LOF placed on him is boggus.
 
ladylynn said:

God bless you JGIG., (wouldn't let me give you a rep.) Your writing is really good. And the words
Godly discipline is training for the future, not punishment for our past.

That is so very wise. There are many Christians who think God is going to "take us to the woodshed" But I've since learned Our Good Shepherd never beats the sheep with that rod and staff. Reading Psalm 23 it says how the rod and the staff they comfort. The Good Shepherd is not behind the sheep driving them with His rod and staff like a bunch of horses or cattle. No no. Jesus "leads" the sheep. He goes before the sheep. NEVER NEVER does He drive the sheep. We are the sheep of His pasture and He tenderly looks after us.

JP said in one of his messages about how people have misrepresented our Good Shepherd. Psalms 23 doesn't say "The Lord is my Shepherd., He breaketh my legs"

But many believers find comfort in the idea they are going to the wood shed to get wacked with the rod. NOT ME. Am not interested in getting spanked in the wood shed or anywhere. The natural consequences of sin are enough to make us miserable. The Lord doesn't have to add to the burden. And neither do believers for that matter. Yet many are of a different mind set. I've since changed and no longer see the Good Shepherd driving and swatting me.

I heard a preacher say that some Christians believe that the Good Shepherd breaks the legs of the sheep. (!!!) For many reasons a good shepherd would never do that to one of his sheep. For one thing the sheep need to be able to walk and do all the things a sheep need to do to survive. How could a shepherd do his job for all the other sheep if he was carrying a sheep with broken legs and taking the sheep to get water and food and to get to the bathroom etc etc... Only hireling shepherds would break the legs of the sheep and then sell them for lamb chops. Those shepherds have no love or concern for the sheep.

Our Good Shepherd Jesus is nothing like anyone we have ever met. His grace is what teaches us and that kind of learning is not understood by the natural mans way of thinking. We Christians need a revelation of the grace of God IN Jesus.

Will check out your link here JGIG. Thanks so much for your wise helpful words as always. Love you sis and you are deeply appreciated.
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I have been meaning to dig deeper into the whole issue of sheep. From the sheep themselves, and how dumb they are, to the shepard, and all of his roles. I think that study might give a greater understanding of us and our shepard.
 
Jesus as a Shepherd does not drive us but lead us.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
 
When we get saved, we enter into a whole new relationship with God because of His Son. I used to believe exactly the way you do about "correction" but like I said, I've since learned differently. Life with it's dyer consequences hits with enough force when we are out of God's will. We are our own worst enemy., and sin, the world and the devil are a close 2nd.
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Um,no we go from being poor broke outsiders in a ditch,to being gloriously accepted as sons and daughters.

There aere two judgements (if we can get outside the non issue of LOF,that some are hopelessly parked on).

1 Direct judgement. Miriam. (and please do note it had zero to do with LOF)

2 Indirect judgement . As in nations being used to attack Israel.

We see judgment with paul;
6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.


This is a good article to use the scissors on;

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
 
Yes. He's The GOOD Shepherd. He is SOOO good, and way too good to me. It's just astounding, His love and care, His patience (longsuffering), His forgiveness, and despite my 'sheepy' wanderings/disobedience, His faithfulness.

Goodness, the amazing grace of our Good Shepherd.

(Will try to find a study by Sinclair Ferguson on
Our Shepherd. Well worth the search.)
 
PennEd said:
I have been meaning to dig deeper into the whole issue of sheep. From the sheep themselves, and how dumb they are, to the shepard, and all of his roles. I think that study might give a greater understanding of us and our shepard.
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Very much agree PennEd! And I hear that the shepherds in Israel are the ones to read about. Like you I've been meaning to get one of those books written by an actual Christian shepherd.

Since finding out about the need to learn more about the grace of God., I've since learned Jesus is so tender to us and the world and our human rational is so harsh. The world is a hard and dangerous place. At ever corner there are dangers yet "untold" They come at us also through the mind and attach our thought processes as well as attach or emotions and all of our bodies well being. We need a protector. Sheep are so weak and helpless. Even when we think we are strong., we find we are really totally weak in ourselves. All the power and protection we have are only found IN Christ.

I love Psalm 23 and lean on the promises and words of comfort there. How come we are not told about Psalm 23 except for when people are at a funeral. It is for us now. I can surely attest to the fact I'm a sheep who is weak and without any natural defenses. If it was not for Jesus, I would be dead. The wolves would have finished devouring me long ago. But the Good Shepherd Jesus has gotten me out of trouble and put my feet on solid ground. And He promises to do that for all the sheep of His pasture. Because He loves us with an everlasting love that is based on Himself and not us. GRACE.


The Lord is my Shepherd [to feed, to guide and to shield me],
I shall not want.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]
He lets me lie down in green pastures;
He leads me beside the still and quiet waters.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]
He refreshes and restores my soul (life);
He leads me in the paths of righteousness
for His name’s sake.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]
Even though I walk through the [sunless] [SUP][a][/SUP]valley of the shadow of death,
I fear no evil, for You are with me;
Your rod [to protect] and Your staff [to guide], they comfort and console me.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]
You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies.
You have anointed and refreshed my head with [SUP][b][/SUP]oil;
My cup overflows.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]
Surely goodness and mercy and unfailing love shall follow me all the days of my life,
And I shall dwell forever [throughout all my days] in the house and in the presence of the Lord.


 
I think he means that all of the torture Jesus went through was not God "punishing" him.

It was the Romans.... sinful man that killed Jesus.
 
Paul's thorn in the flesh does not look like judgment to me. It is a messenger of satan to beat at him because of Paul's revelations that were given to him.

God didn't send the devil's messenger to judge Paul for something that He - God Himself gave to Paul. That's just religious nonsense.

God doesn't give people "revelations" of Christ and then judge them for having them. That's crazy.

2 Corinthians 12:7-9 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself!

[SUP]8 [/SUP] Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me.

[SUP]9 [/SUP] And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

God simply used the messenger of satan - that satan sent on Paul to encourage Paul to rely completely on the grace of Christ in his life and not in his flesh or what he had done or has been revealed to him.
 
Grace777x70 said:
Paul's thorn in the flesh does not look like judgment to me. It is a messenger of satan to beat at him because of Paul's revelations that were given to him.

God didn't send the devil's messenger to judge Paul for something that He - God Himself gave to Paul. That's just religious nonsense.

God doesn't give people "revelations" of Christ and then judge them for having them. That's crazy.

2 Corinthians 12:7-9 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself!

[SUP]8 [/SUP] Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me.

[SUP]9 [/SUP] And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

God simply used the messenger of satan - that satan sent on Paul to encourage Paul to rely completely on the grace of Christ in his life and not in his flesh or what he had done or has been revealed to him.
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Forces cause discipline.

The planets are in incredible discipline.

Forces keep the discipline in the planets.

We are disciplined directly and indirectly. But ,like the earthly family,the FATHER disciplines the children.
He can say "no,no don't touch ,hot" a million times . Then finally,"go ahead and see for yourself"

To remove discipline is to make God a non loving God.

A friend loves you in spite of your faults

A coach loves you too much to not address them.

A FATHER loves you too much to leave you like you were.
 
popeye said:
Your verses say that sin was laid upon him.
Speaking of the abuse of the romans.
That was a prophecy of his arrest and trial mockery. No LOF was placed on him at the cross.

He was JUDGED by both the romans and the jews.

THEY FOUND NOTHING.

The whole idea that he went to the cross,to have the LOF placed on him is boggus.
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MY VERSES?!

Ahem. God's Word.

I didn't mention anything about the LOF, but if you think the cross was only about Romans and Jews judgment you're sadly mistaken.

The sinless Son of God took our sin upon Himself and the penalty WE deserved was poured out on Him. By God. Read Isaiah 53 again.
 
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