Questions about the bible !

[GandalfTheWhite]

I said God gave him over to his own desires (made him stronger in himself). He was scared that Israel would destroy them and therefor he killed all of their new born babies.

The only thing God did is allow him to grow stronger in his fleshly desires, like we all do. Have you ever notice the first time you do something wrong you get that uncomfortable feeling and after a while that feeling is numb or gone? That is what God did to him.

Surely that is not difficult to understand...?

 

[alexxcjRO]

GandalfTheWhite :"I said God gave him over to his own desires (made him stronger in himself). He was scared that Israel would destroy them and therefor he killed all of their new born babies."

I think you don't know what free moral will means.
God would not make some character traits stronger or weaker when we are about to make a decision because would compromise our final choice, therefore our free moral will.
God would not get involved at all when we make any of our moral choice if he wants to judge us later based on our decision.

What are you talking about that the Pharaoh killing the babies, God was the one that killed all the firstborn babies.


Exodus 12:29-30King James Version (KJV)

"29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
30 And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead."


Exodus 12:29-30New International Version (NIV)


"29 At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestockas well. 30 Pharaoh and all his officials and all the Egyptians got up during the night, and there was loud wailing in Egypt, for there was not a house without someone dead."

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Mmmm, maybe you should read earlier in Exodus and see if Pharaoh didn't kill the babies first... (hint that is why Moses's mom put him on the Nile in a basket)

Are you an atheist?

 

[alexxcjRO]

GandalfTheWhite :"Mmmm, maybe you should read earlier in Exodus and see if Pharaoh didn't kill the babies first... (hint that is why Moses's mom put him on the Nile in a basket) "

What nonsense are you babbling about?
I clearly said "The story of Moses and the plagues of Egypt" in the post 211.
Dude here is about the time that Moses was older, an adult. When he tried to make the Pharaoh let the Israelites go free. And God punished the Egyptians by killing the firstborn babies.

GandalfTheWhite :"Are you an atheist?"

So because i ask pertinent questions i am an atheist?
Your wrong again. So far i am agnostic.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

GandalfTheWhite :"Mmmm, maybe you should read earlier in Exodus and see if Pharaoh didn't kill the babies first... (hint that is why Moses's mom put him on the Nile in a basket) "

What nonsense are you babbling about?
I clearly said "The story of Moses and the plagues of Egypt" in the post 211.
Dude here is about the time that Moses was older, an adult. When he tried to make the Pharaoh let the Israelites go free. And God punished the Egyptians by killing the firstborn babies.

GandalfTheWhite :"Are you an atheist?"

So because i ask pertinent questions i am an atheist?
Your wrong again. So far i am agnostic.

I know the story but you were asking about the hardening of his heart. You can't limit an answer to what you feel necessary.

How can I be wrong if I ask you a question? I didn't assume anything. I asked you a question because your logic is not far from atheism...

 

[alexxcjRO]

GandalfTheWhite: "I know the story but you were asking about the hardening of his heart. You can't limit an answer to what you feel necessary."

Man i analyzed carefully before posting and read multiple versions of the bible and translations.
Not matter if you take in consideration the previous events, the conclusion remains that God influenced Pharaoh decision and then punished him for his decision. That is absurd because free moral choice is the essential component which justifies the concepts of reward and punishment.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

GandalfTheWhite: "I know the story but you were asking about the hardening of his heart. You can't limit an answer to what you feel necessary."

Man i analyzed carefully before posting and read multiple versions of the bible and translations.
Not matter if you take in consideration the previous events, the conclusion remains that God influenced Pharaoh decision and then punished him for his decision. That is absurd because free moral choice is the essential component which justifies the concepts of reward and punishment.

You are wrong, Pharaoh was acting on his own accord. God gave him over to his sinful desires. The desire was already there. God just allowed it to be and become stronger.

 

[alexxcjRO]

GandalfTheWhite :"You are wrong, Pharaoh was acting on his own accord. God gave him over to his sinful desires. The desire was already there. God just allowed it to be and become stronger."

1.In this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdgJrx1MM6I Dr.brown at 10:33 says "God strengthen his resolve not to let the people go".
At first the Pharaoh hardened his heart and he refused, but later God intervene and strengthened his resolve and stubbornness even more. This clearly shows a violation of free moral will. God influenced his future decisions from the moment he intervened.
But he also punished him and his people so severely. If you really can see this you are suffering from "normalcy bias".

2.Let's assume God didn't violate Pharaoh free moral will.
If God is the embodiment of perfect justice and infinitely wise why did he punished so severely so many men,animals and children with famine,pestilence and death for one man's stubbornness?
Why does this perfectly good God who loves all equally brought so much suffering in the lives of the Egyptians?
They maybe were partially guilty for condoning slavery, but surely not all of them. They didn't deserve so harsh punishment.

 

[working4christ2]

No, not exactly:

Pharaoh HARDENED his OWN heart by his obstinate unbelief. God ONLY affirmative Pharaoh's OWN choices.

And JESUS does the very same with us.... AMEN!

 

[alexxcjRO]

working4christ2 :"God ONLY affirmative Pharaoh's OWN choices. "

Seriously man, how can you lie with such impunity, how can you be so dishonest ?
When the truth hits your face and ignore it with such obstinate unbelief, stubbornness.
Did your logic, common sense, morality fly out the window?

Did you not watch the video i posted?
If God strengthened one of my character trait, then he is partially responsible for what i will do based on that character trait.
I have urges to kill one individual. After i kill someone my urges are gone.
God make my urges more intense and as a result i kill more then one people to settle my more intense urges.
God is now responsible for me killing more then one people.
By this God influenced my decision and tempered with my free moral will.
It may be 1%, 10% , 40% or more it does not matter, he influenced my choice so some of the blame goes to him.
Its absurd for him to punish me when he is partially guilty and because free moral choice is the essential component which justifies the concepts of reward and punishment.


"And JESUS does the very same with us.... AMEN!"

Jesus can't do the same with us because he would temper with our free moral will which was this precious gift from God.
So precious that God would not stop moral evils from happening because of it.
It's not this the partial response for the problem of evil? So how can you say Jesus does temper with our free moral will?

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

If you look at Pharaoh's attitude you will see why you are wrong:



Exo 5:2
And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go.

 

[alexxcjRO]

GandalfTheWhite "If you look at Pharaoh's attitude you will see why you are wrong:

Exo 5:2
And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go. "

Dude Dr.brown at 10:33 clearly says "God strengthen his resolve not to let the people go"
Did you ignore the video?

Yes man the Pharaoh was stubborn at first and refuse to let them go ...
But later God strengthen his resolve even more, made him more stubborn.
Why ? If God wants the Pharaoh to let them go why would he make even more improbable for this to happen?
How can you say he didn't influence his future decision from that point on is beyond me ?

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Dude Dr.brown at 10:33 clearly says "God strengthen his resolve not to let the people go"
Did you ignore the video?

So dr. Brown has the direct line to God?

I have explained it to you before but listen to dr. Brown.

 

[alexxcjRO]

GandalfTheWhite :"So dr. Brown has the direct line to God? "


Do you have a direct line to God?
Let's drop the subject, normalcy bias hit you really hard.

What about this other stuff?
I am curious what is your opinion.

The story of Uzzah
Logical deduction:
P1. Yahweh exists.
P2. Yahweh is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good.
P1. Yahweh killed Uzzah instantly, after he touched the ark of covenant.
P2. Jesus died on the cross and paid the penalty for all for all sins, even for the sin of Uzzah.
P3. Because of Jesus sacrifice guilty sinners only need to repent, and ask for forgiveness to be saved.(Yahweh’s plan)
P4. Those who are not saved experience the everlasting destruction of the Lake of Fire.
P5. Because Uzzah died instantly after committing the sin, he didn’t got time to repent at all for his sin.
P6. Because Uzzah didn’t repent for his sin, he is not saved, he will experience the everlasting destruction of the Lake of Fire.
P6. Yahweh being omniscient knew that Uzzah needed few minutes at least to repent and ask for forgiveness and being perfectly good would not have killed him instantly so that he has the opportunity to repent.
P7. Yahweh killed Uzzah instantly and he didn’t got time to repent and ask for forgiveness (logical contradiction).
C. Therefore, Yahweh is not an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being.
(2 Samuel 6:3-7)

Non-moral evil that bring suffering to beings that are not rational, capable of making moral choices(they can't learn, evolve spiritually from the evil things they experience)
Logical deduction:
P1.Yahweh exists
P2.Yahweh is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good.
P3.Yahweh made man with free moral will so because not even an omnipotent being can causally determine a genuinely free choice Yahweh can’t stop moral evils from existing without compromising free moral will.
P4.A perfectly good being would want to prevent non-moral evils from hurting beings that are not rational, capable of making moral choices (small children, those mentally impaired, animals).
P5.An omniscient being knows every way in which non-moral evils can come into existence.
P6.An omnipotent being who knows every way in which a non-moral evil can come into existence has the power to prevent that non-moral evil from coming into existence.
P7.A being who knows every way in which an non-moral evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that non-moral evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil in the lives of those that are not rational, capable of making moral choices exists.
P8.If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then non-moral evil that hurt those that are not rational, capable of making moral choices does not exists.
P9.Non-moral evil that hurt those that are not rational, capable of making moral choices exists (logical contradiction).
C. Therefore, Yahweh is not an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being.

​Psychopaths disproves that Yahweh this omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good exist together with the core idea of salvation presented by the bible.
Logical deduction:
P1.Yahweh exists.
P2.Yahweh is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good.
P3.Psychopats feel no remorse, no empathy (they are born this way) therefore can’t feel bad about the evil things they have done therefore can’t repent for sinning.
P4. Jesus died on the cross and paid the penalty for all for all sins, even for the sins of the psychopaths.
P3. Because of Jesus sacrifice guilty sinners only need to repent, and ask for forgiveness to be saved.(Yahweh’s plan)
P4. Those who are not saved experience the everlasting destruction of the Lake of Fire.
P5. Because psychopaths can’t repent they can’t ever be saved therefore they will inevitable experience the everlasting destruction of the Lake of Fire.
P6. An omniscient being knows every way in which psychopathy can come into existence.
P7. An omnipotent being who knows every way in which psychopathy can come into existence has the power to prevent that psychopathy from coming into existence.
P7. A being who knows every way in which psychopathy can come into existence, who is able to prevent that psychopathy from coming into existence, and who wants to do so(because remorse is a key factor in the process of salvation), would prevent the existence of psychopathy.
P8. If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then
psychopathy does not exists.
P9. Psychopathy exists.(Logical contradiction)
C. Therefore, Yahweh is not an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Alex, I have discussed this topic with atheists in South Africa so many times. I know the noises made by atheists and that is why I asked you last time if you are an atheist.

Brother, you can believe what you want to believe and no matter what I (or anybody else for that matter) tells you, you will not change or believe them.

I do have a direct line to God, it is called prayer and my manual is the Bible. We all have it but through the corruption of our sinful desires we will always struggle with understanding God if we are not His children.

Regarding Uzzah, my father once told me not to eat rat poison or drink break fluid because it will kill me. If I was so stupid as not to trust my father and I drink the rat poison and the break fluid can I blame him for my death?

Don't blame God for not being the puppet master you expected. If you have a problem with God, you are always wrong because He is God

 

[alexxcjRO]

GandalfTheWhite :"Regarding Uzzah, my father once told me not to eat rat poison or drink break fluid because it will kill me. If I was so stupid as not to trust my father and I drink the rat poison and the break fluid can I blame him for my death? "

The example is so wrong, does not even comes close.
You drank the poison. Your father didn't killed you. He is not responsible at all for your death.
While with Uzzah God kills him directly. If not for God Uzzah would have not have died. While not for your father you still would have died.
My problem is not with him killing him my dear friend but with the fact that he didn't give him the chance to repent. While saying that this is required so to be saved. Do you not see the problem?


GandalfTheWhite :"Alex, I have discussed this topic with atheists in South Africa so many times. I know the noises made by atheists and that is why I asked you last time if you are an atheist.
Don't blame God for not being the puppet master you expected. If you have a problem with God, you are always wrong because He is God "

Dude i am not an atheist .
I didn't said God does not exist, only that if he did he is not omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good but omnipotent, omniscient, and maybe malevolent or indifferent as much as the reality is and how bible is written.
Instead of refuting my premises or the hole logic you are babbling nonsense about atheism, when i didn't said such thing that God does not exist.
How are you so sure i am wrong. I am not 100% of my logic. I maybe wrong. I can change my mind anytime. I changed my mind already from Christian to agnostic. Your arrogance when Christians say their sure of God's existence and that he is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good while ignoring the bible itself, reality, science and logic amaze me.

 

[working4christ2]

working4christ2 :"God ONLY affirmative Pharaoh's OWN choices. "

Seriously man, how can you lie with such impunity, how can you be so dishonest ?
When the truth hits your face and ignore it with such obstinate unbelief, stubbornness.
Did your logic, common sense, morality fly out the window?

MY friend if your going to call ME a liar; please at least be specific about what YOU think I'm lying about. ... THAT would be the Christian thing to do.

Did you not watch the video i posted?

Sorry, but I don't do videos.

If God

strengthened one of my character trait, then he is partially responsible for what i will do based on that character trait.

Sorry, not true.

man is created in the image and likeness of our GOD; {Genesis 1:26-27}
This is accomplished by GOD giving to every human person a mid, intellect and FREEWILL; ALL of which are permnant attachments to the Human Soul.

Hence God removes Himself from man;s OWN choices; EXCEPT to make grace available to us, as HE deems to do so. So NO, you {none of us can blame God for OUR choices}.

I have urges to kill one individual. After i kill someone my urges are gone.
God make my urges more intense and as a result i kill more then one people to settle my more intense urges.
God is now responsible for me killing more then one people.
By this God influenced my decision and tempered with my free moral will.

Friend that is silliness and ignorance.

God can be briefly and accurately defined as:

"GOD IS ALL GOOD THINGS PERFECTED"

Thus we CAN know that God can ONLY do Good things {please feel free to challenge this} ... He can and does PERMIT evil, BUT NOT be the cuase of it.

It may be 1%, 10% , 40% or more it does not matter, he influenced my choice so some of the blame goes to him.
Its absurd for him to punish me when he is partially guilty and because

free moral choice is the essential component which justifies the concepts of reward and punishment.

Friend your confusing God with Satan who BTW only has access to us that we GRANT him through our emotions.

"And JESUS does the very same with us.... AMEN!"

Jesus can't do the same with us because he would temper with our free moral will which was this precious gift from God.
So precious that God would not stop moral evils from happening because of it.[/QUOTE}

I'm not COMPLETELY sure of your meaning here?

God could NOT be GOD if He permitted Himself {all Good and Perfect} to interfere with the intellect, mind and freewill {ALL Spiritual things like God Himself BTW.... John 4:23} that he GIFTS to man precisely so that each man can choose for himself, Eternal hell or Eternal Heaven. Amen!

{QUOTE]It's not this the partial response for the problem of evil? So how can you say Jesus does temper with our free moral will?

I just explained it in the BOLD answer above. God COULD NOT { a moral impossibility} BE GOD and do so.

May God Bless and enlighten you my friend,
Patrick

 

[alexxcjRO]

working4christ2 "Thus we CAN know that God can ONLY do Good things {please feel free to challenge this} ... He can and does PERMIT evil, BUT NOT be the cuase of it"

Seriously man?!
Your bible says otherwise, have a look at these verses:
1. Killing the Good Samaritan
“The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before
the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.
When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. “(2 Samuel 6:3-7)

2. Killed by a Lion
“Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, “Strike me!” But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, “Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me.” And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him.”(1 Kings 20:35-36)

3. Mass Murder
“This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: ‘I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.’ “(1 Samuel 15:2-3)

4. God Promises More Killing
“I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD.”(Ezekiel 35:7-9 )

5. Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites
“They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.
Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. “Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded. “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.” (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

6. More Murder Rape and Pillage
“As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.”(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

7. More Rape and Baby Killing
“Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.”(Isaiah 13:15-18)

 

[alexxcjRO]

working4christ2:"Sorry, not true.
man is created in the image and likeness of our GOD; {Genesis 1:26-27}
This is accomplished by GOD giving to every human person a mid, intellect and FREEWILL; ALL of which are permnant attachments to the Human Soul.
Hence God removes Himself from man;s OWN choices; EXCEPT to make grace available to us, as HE deems to do so. So NO, you {none of us can blame God for OUR choices}."



Let's assume the God didn't temper with Pharaoh's free will.
If God is the embodiment of perfect justice and infinitely wise why did he punished so severely so many animals, small children, infants, those mentally impaired (that are not rational, capable of making moral choices) with famine,pestilence and death for one man's stubbornness?
Why does this perfectly good God who loves all equally brought so much suffering in the lives of all those that are not rational and do not have moral competence for the sin of one morally accountable human?

 

[tanakh]

This is where I am going to be shot down in flames but I don't care. Truth when applied to the Bible should not be confused with facts. What was considered factual in the period when the OT and NT books were written was very different from what we regard as factual now. Then all disease and disability was seen as judgement against sin because germs Genetics and viruses were unknown, as were natural disasters which we still call acts of God. Atoms, Galaxies and a multitude of things we take for granted were also unknown. oil lamps were the only source of light at night, animals were the only means of transport and remained so until the early 19th Century.

To try to interpret the world we live in today through the eyes of people who lived Centuries ago is a futile exercise. The contents of the Bible are written to reveal the human condition and how it can be overcome because that is the only thing that has remained the same throughout history. So trying to justify stoning rebellious Sons to death, killing witches, keeping slaves, smashing Babylonion babies heads against rocks and allowing Israelites to rape Median virgins as in Num 31:17-18 because it is thought that every single word is true is an insult to God. As the song says in Porgy and Bess ''It aint necessarily so''