If the wilderness Tabernacle was made in the pattern shown to Moses by God...

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graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
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What do you mean that it is obsolete? While I agree that the old has passed and the new is come. I also acknowledge that the new is based in the old. Love is still the main thing as it was in the old. For example as you have said above, The new covenant did not introduce "you shall not murder" it was carried over as love does not change.
The New covenant sealed by the blood that Christ Jesus shed on the cross makes all the other covenants obsolete only in the sense that it fulfilled the righteous requirements of those other covenants.
Those covenants have not disappeared.
The Mosaic covenant, by which the Law was given, has not disappeared.
The Law is still operational - it tells us in no uncertain terms what constitutes sin and what the penalties are for transgression both on earth and in heaven.
The Law is not obsolete even in the sense of righteousness - one can still attempt to attain righteousness by adherence to the Law - a feat not attained by mortal man.
However, the New covenant offers an alternative path for righteousness before God, bought by the blood of Christ Jesus, shed on the cross, accessible to man by grace through faith.
In this sense the Law is obsolete, since no man could find righteousness by the Law however man can find righteousness through the blood of Jesus Christ.
This righteousness cannot be bought, nor can it be earned - this righteousness can only be accepted by grace through faith.

Our friend DM believes that in order to a Christian one has to become a Jew.
In this respect he believes that all the laws, the feasts, the days etc that Jews were obliged to observe in order to become Jews are incumbent on those who wish to call themselves Christians.
This despite the Bible clearly outlining that Gentiles are not required to observe Jewish customs and laws. The details are outlined in Acts where the Council of Jerusalem unequivocally affirms that one does not need to be a Jew to be a Christian or that one in order to be a Christian needs to be a Jew as well.

The whole book of Galatians also deals with the same issue of the Judaizers where Jewish believers try to force Gentile believers into becoming Jews in order to be Christian. Reading Galatians one is struck not only by the anger expressed by Paul toward these Judaizing individuals but also his dismissive attitude toward them.

There is no place in the New covenant for individuals who would force conditions on others apart from just believing in the saving work of Jesus Christ on the cross.
Righteousness does not, and never has, come from obeying laws and days and feasts.
Others have correctly pointed out that these laws, days and feasts do point to Christ and His saving work on the cross, but merely obeying and observing these things while NOT accepting what Jesus did for us on the cross is pointless and earns only condemnation according to the righteous demands of the law.

DM wants us to believe that observing Christmas and Easter is fraudulent.
His argument is that there is no specific Biblical "command" to do this.
What he quite misses is the fact that Christians are not under the laws that he wants to impose on us.
In addition I actually could not care less what day or days Christmas and Easter occur or whether they correspond exactly with the days that Jesus was supposed to have been born, crucified, and resurrected.
And the reason for this is very simple.
I can celebrate the birth, life, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension of Christ Jesus on any and every day of the year.
I am NOT restricted to any specific day of the week or the year in this.
This is exactly the sort of freedom afforded us by the New covenant.
Exactly the same argument applies to the day of worship that DM has tried so hard, and unsuccessfully, to convince us must be the Sabbath (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday).
As Christians none of us need wait for any day of the week to worship God - any and every day we worship is acceptable and pleasing to God.

So let us use our freedom in Christ to worship Him and what He has done for us free of any shackles of legalism and human restraint.
 
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valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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Rom 3:19-20
Now we know that what things soever the law says, it speaks to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God:
because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for through the law comes the knowledge of sin.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Just curious on what you have said here.

I agree with everything here except the part about law keepers always leave out Christ.

Let me clarify, I believe that Christians keep the law of God. Yet I agree with you that many who believe that leave out Christ. And I also agree that the law, ordinances etc are all found in Christ.

So what do you mean when you use the term law keepers?

Thanx.
"law-keepers" are those that say we need to follow the Law of Moses in the Old Covenant in any form. The New Covenant believers keep the word of God by believing in God's Son - our Lord Jesus and by walking in love for one another.

I say "law-keepers" leave out Christ because they turn to the Law instead of relying on Christ. It's their performance of keeping the Law which they think will justify them or give them life but this is anti-Christ belief.

The law of love, the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus, the law of faith, the law of liberty in Christ, and the law of Christ - Himself in us is all that we need now to live.

We don't need to "obey" Lev. 18:23 to not have sex with animals as the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus will prevent that. We can trust the Holy Spirit inside of us as we are being led by Him now in this New Covenant.

 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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the golden calf was based upon pagan religions
.
Aaron proclaimed a feast “to the Eternal” (Exodus 32:5)

After the Old Covenant between God and Israel had been ratified, God called Moses up into the mountain. Moses was kept there 40 days, receiving detailed instructions for the congregation (church) and for the nation—for with the Israelites church and state were united.

After Moses had been gone some days, the people said to Aaron, “Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.” So they took their golden earrings and trinkets, and Aaron had them made into a golden calf for an idol (Exodus 32:1-4).

Moses came down from the mount carrying the two tablets of stone on which the Eternal had engraved the Ten Commandments with His own finger. On seeing this golden idol and the people worshiping it in merriment and dancing, he lost his temper and in a rage threw down the tablets of stone and broke them.

Of course, just as some very large religious bodies who claim to be Christian do today, they merely said this calf represented God—it pictured to them what they supposed God looked like.


After making this molten gold calf, Aaron proclaimed a feast “to the Eternal”
(Exodus 32:5), during which they worshipped before the idol.

Go into an Anglican church or a Roman Catholic church today and ask the priest or official whether the images of “Christ” and of “Mary” are idols—whether or not they are worshiping idols. They will indignantly say, “No! We don’t worship idols. We don’t worship the images. We don’t claim the images actually are Christ or Mary—only that they represent, or picture to us, what Christ or Mary look like!”


Well, that is precisely the way all pagans always worshipped idols! But God’s wrath waxed
hot at this (Exodus 32:7-10). God will not accept such worship! See also Deuteronomy 12:30-31.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Thy righteousness
[is] an everlasting righteousness, and thy law [is] the truth.
Psalms 119:142 (KJV, MBM)
The time of the promised reformation has come . The shadows became substance.Just as Christ in the flesh did come. The apostate Judaizers are still waiting putting their hope in shadows .

Where do you stand? Under Christians the new name he name the born again children of God .Or under Abraham who no longer has any part in anything here forever more , from the day his spirit left his body.
 

SCHISM

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2016
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Please correct me if I am wrong. I honestly do not recall the gift of eternal life in the old covenant. I know they were promised land and blessings and longevity, which are worldly things, but the new covenant is the promise of eternal life. Perhaps that is why the rules are different, because they are separate. Under the old law you receive life but eventual death. Under the new regulations you receive the promise of eternal life, but you have to give up worldly desires which would include those things which were once profitable under the old covenant. If the old covenant promises eternal life somewhere that I missed, then this argument is obviously invalid. I love you.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Christ beckoned, and Peter walked toward Him on the water.

The moment he took his eyes off Christ and "
saw the strong wind" he sank.

So what happens to a person, the moment they stop looking toward heaven, and '
look down' on another?

[HR][/HR]
((but take heart))

Jesus immediately reached out his hand and took hold of him,
saying to him,
O you of little faith, why did you doubt?
(Matthew 14:31)
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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why don't Roots folks do circumcisions? it seems like it would fit right in with 'if you love me keep my commandments'...

of course, it wouldn't be for salvation... but after being justified by faith, wouldn't it make sense to 'delight yourself in the Law'?
 
Feb 24, 2015
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Please correct me if I am wrong. I honestly do not recall the gift of eternal life in the old covenant. I know they were promised land and blessings and longevity, which are worldly things, but the new covenant is the promise of eternal life. Perhaps that is why the rules are different, because they are separate. Under the old law you receive life but eventual death. Under the new regulations you receive the promise of eternal life, but you have to give up worldly desires which would include those things which were once profitable under the old covenant. If the old covenant promises eternal life somewhere that I missed, then this argument is obviously invalid. I love you.
This is an interesting point. On the mountain Jesus is transfigured and is seen talking to
Moses and Elijah. This possesses the interesting point about being with God is part of faith
even for them, under the old covenant.

Those believers who want to make Christ into a different faith to the revelation of scripture
are departing from the faith. Gods nature and way of dealing with man are revealed in both
the old and new testament. The old is as a nation in Israel, and the new is on a individual
level, face to face.

The new empowers the old, through love we become transformed to fulfill the law.
It is a strange theology that people invent failure and sin where there is none, saying this
emphasises our dependency on Christ, while our work with Christ enables us to overcome
sin. The two concepts seems in opposition, which is also confirmed by the continual
condemnation and accusation of people being anti-christ.

Now for a brother commited to following Jesus and walking in the Spirit these are strong
words for those who do not accept their interpretation of theology.

I would suggest this is a classic example of falling for deception and being turned into
an accuser of the brethren, rather than a testimony of Gods love working in the soul.

Their message is "legalism" is the sin of the world, not sin itself, so anyone outside
their group is a legalist and so should be exposed and condemned. Nice bunch of guys
there...