(ritual) circumcisions today
- Thread starter Dan_473
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
- Status
we may think that circumcision is really a private matter, but in the Bible it's very public
who is and who isn't
1 SAMUEL 17:26 Who is this uncircumcised Philistine, that he should defy the armies of the living God?
1 SAMUEL 18:25 Then Saul said, Thus shall you say to David, The king desires no bride-price except a hundred foreskins of the Philistines, that he may be avenged of the king's enemies.
1 SAMUEL 18:27 David arose and went, along with his men, and killed two hundred of the Philistines. And David brought their foreskins, which were given in full number to the king, that he might become the king's son-in-law. And Saul gave him his daughter Michal for a wife.
who is and who isn't
1 SAMUEL 17:26 Who is this uncircumcised Philistine, that he should defy the armies of the living God?
1 SAMUEL 18:25 Then Saul said, Thus shall you say to David, The king desires no bride-price except a hundred foreskins of the Philistines, that he may be avenged of the king's enemies.
1 SAMUEL 18:27 David arose and went, along with his men, and killed two hundred of the Philistines. And David brought their foreskins, which were given in full number to the king, that he might become the king's son-in-law. And Saul gave him his daughter Michal for a wife.
let it out, speak honestly... I'm in favor of that
*******************
how can any reasonable person read these words
GALATIANS 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now completed in the flesh?
GALATIANS 3:5 He therefore who supplies the Spirit to you, and works miracles among you, does he do it by the works of the law, or by hearing of faith?
and come away thinking Paul wanted Christians circumcised?
of course, if one is hell-bent on thinking Paul taught that Christians are completed by circumcision, then yes, the words can be made to say that...
I can't believe this is being debated 2000 years later.
Galatians 5:1-7(KJV)
5 :1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
Galatians 5:1-7(KJV)
5 :1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
It is called mind programming from cradle to grave so you will only be able to see it the way you have already been programmed by the world to see it. Put down the pre indoctrinated glasses with its assumptions. Two people can read one think and come to a totally different conclusion. This is mostly based upon what has been previously fed into the mind, be it right or wrong.
so you do honestly believe that we are completed in the flesh?
and that the spirit is supplied to us by the works of the law?
as I said, I'm speechless
earlier you wrote,' For every person who are babes in the Word (especially the law and the prophets) that go out to seek out what Paul is saying on their own always falls into the trap that we don't need to obey God's law.'
sounds like a person needs 'special knowledge' or they think Christians shouldn't seek circumcision...
special knowledge...'gnosis'... have you heard of Gnosticism?
2 Timothy 2:15
[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. [/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The fact still remains, nowhere in the bible does it teach that believers in Christ should not keep the commandments given by our lovely Creator.[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. [/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The fact still remains, nowhere in the bible does it teach that believers in Christ should not keep the commandments given by our lovely Creator.[/FONT]
It seems you may have missed post#45, Galatians5:1-7.
The bible says if you seek to be justified by circumcision, you are obligated to keep the WHOLE law, and therefore Christ has no effect for you, you seek to establish your righteousness by keeping the law, ... By doing so, you nullify, make unnecessary, cancel out, the grace of God.
God is saying that circumcision doesn't accomplish anything, neither does not being circumcised have any bearing, for our salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ. He died to set us free. We no longer need keep these ceremonies, rituals and traditions.
Christ is the fulfillment of all these things for us, and our salvation is secured in Him.
Please read 5:1 and read it over and over until it really sinks in and the joy wells up.
Jesus paid it all, He loves you that much.
The bible says if you seek to be justified by circumcision, you are obligated to keep the WHOLE law, and therefore Christ has no effect for you, you seek to establish your righteousness by keeping the law, ... By doing so, you nullify, make unnecessary, cancel out, the grace of God.
God is saying that circumcision doesn't accomplish anything, neither does not being circumcised have any bearing, for our salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ. He died to set us free. We no longer need keep these ceremonies, rituals and traditions.
Christ is the fulfillment of all these things for us, and our salvation is secured in Him.
Please read 5:1 and read it over and over until it really sinks in and the joy wells up.
Jesus paid it all, He loves you that much.
Yes, point being, No one can keep the whole law, except Jesus, who kept it FOR us.
So many of these things people take the wrong way.
When Jesus said, 'Be perfect, as your Father in heaven.....'
It's supposed to bring us to an end of ourselves, our religious strivings, etc.,
and say, 'I can't Lord, forgive me, have mercy, but I can't be perfect, I need you to save me'.
The rich young ruler wanted to know what he could DO to INHERIT eternal life.
Jesus already knew he was striving by his own effort, and asked him about the law.
The young man said he had kept it. Ok. Jesus said he lacked one thing, and hit him in his possessions. We know the story. Again, Jesus wasn't looking for perfection. He was trying to show the man that eternal life couldn't be gained by law-keeping or self-effort or DOING good. So the disciples said, 'who then can be saved?'
Jesus said with men it's impossible, by man's efforts, no one can be saved.
But with God, all things are possible. God does the work. God does the saving.
When they asked what they must DO to work the works of God, Jesus said the work of God was to BELIEVE in Jesus. All these law-keeping efforts miss the mark, come up short, and keep people from trusting completely in the finished work of Jesus.
Perfection is the standard. Only Jesus meets it. Salvation is a gift from God in Jesus alone. All this striving at law-keeping is like telling God that what Jesus did on our behalf wasn't good enough.
You got it. Keep the faith, Dan_473. God bless.
So many of these things people take the wrong way.
When Jesus said, 'Be perfect, as your Father in heaven.....'
It's supposed to bring us to an end of ourselves, our religious strivings, etc.,
and say, 'I can't Lord, forgive me, have mercy, but I can't be perfect, I need you to save me'.
The rich young ruler wanted to know what he could DO to INHERIT eternal life.
Jesus already knew he was striving by his own effort, and asked him about the law.
The young man said he had kept it. Ok. Jesus said he lacked one thing, and hit him in his possessions. We know the story. Again, Jesus wasn't looking for perfection. He was trying to show the man that eternal life couldn't be gained by law-keeping or self-effort or DOING good. So the disciples said, 'who then can be saved?'
Jesus said with men it's impossible, by man's efforts, no one can be saved.
But with God, all things are possible. God does the work. God does the saving.
When they asked what they must DO to work the works of God, Jesus said the work of God was to BELIEVE in Jesus. All these law-keeping efforts miss the mark, come up short, and keep people from trusting completely in the finished work of Jesus.
Perfection is the standard. Only Jesus meets it. Salvation is a gift from God in Jesus alone. All this striving at law-keeping is like telling God that what Jesus did on our behalf wasn't good enough.
You got it. Keep the faith, Dan_473. God bless.
J
Well said. I was thinking about how Timothy was circumcised, but believe this was to make him an acceptable witness to those he would witness to, rather than any obedience to the law of Moses (similar to how a missionary may adopt some of the culture of the people to whom he goes, to make him better understood). Also, as the law required circumcision on the 8th day, wouldn't circumcision on any other day be as much a falling short as uncircumcision anyway?
Exactly. Judaisers. They start off softly (Sabbath keeping, not eating pork etc.), and before you know it, they're preaching circumcision. Not that the skin is of any importance, but its the danger to the soul that makes them so dangerous.
Not sure, but I hope the converts are informed of the next part of the initiation into the cult, before they proceed (Gal 5:12).
Exactly. Judaisers. They start off softly (Sabbath keeping, not eating pork etc.), and before you know it, they're preaching circumcision. Not that the skin is of any importance, but its the danger to the soul that makes them so dangerous.
Not sure, but I hope the converts are informed of the next part of the initiation into the cult, before they proceed (Gal 5:12).
This is the why you think the holy law of the commandments is done away with: You think Paul is saying the law is done away with when Jesus died as a sacrifice for sins and the penalty for it. You must understand that Paul is talking in he's letters about the "curse of the law" and "ordinances" contained within the law which was against them because of what would happen to them if they did not stay faithful to God's covenant He made with the children of Israel. Paul is also writing about the law of sin and death which no longer applies to those who believe and are born again and follow Christ. Those who accept circumcision instead of Christ are those of the Pharisees of the circumcision party who did not believe Christ had come, that was still trying to be justified by the law only and by sacrificing of animals instead of believing the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is why I strongly warn people that are not staying faithful to God after having received Christ and the rebirth, because people do get it wrong and think believers should not obey God's commandments which He has given to us to follow. And thereby causing people to sin against the Creator and hinder the purpose of God which is for us to be reconciled to Him and to walk with Him in holiness without condemnation for the disobedience and death of the past and fear because we walk with Him and have a desire to obey Him. If we live after the flesh and continue in the flesh and not the Spirit we will die.
2 Corinthians 2:7 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
2 Corinthians 2:7 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Last edited:
J
If it wasn't for the sad fact that some of these brainwashed people are sincerely putting their souls in jeopardy, it would be funny. We might even mock them like Elijah did the prophets of Baal - "Come on, you're not cutting off enough!" (Gal 5:12).
You do well to see this, although I believe it to be the Holy Spirit who has revealed it to you. Beware the leaven of the Pharisees. I even sometimes wonder if the health benefits of circumcision are promoted in order to make it easier to gain men converts, when the Pharisees and Judaisers (i.e. Messianic/Jewish roots movements) do finally reveal their true colours to all.
Well, if we're making the rules up as we go, as it seems the Judaisers are doing by throwing out the New Testament, there are 2 schools of thought in this cult. The first is that as women are born without any extra skin to snip, they are already circumcised, so all women are saved. However, the second school of thought insists that as women don't have any unneeded skin to trim, they are uncircumcised, and so must perform at least 2 circumcisions to be saved (performing a circumcision is half the blessing of getting one). There are sub-schools in the second school, attributing different values to performance, but I think you get the idea.
You do well to see this, although I believe it to be the Holy Spirit who has revealed it to you. Beware the leaven of the Pharisees. I even sometimes wonder if the health benefits of circumcision are promoted in order to make it easier to gain men converts, when the Pharisees and Judaisers (i.e. Messianic/Jewish roots movements) do finally reveal their true colours to all.
Well, if we're making the rules up as we go, as it seems the Judaisers are doing by throwing out the New Testament, there are 2 schools of thought in this cult. The first is that as women are born without any extra skin to snip, they are already circumcised, so all women are saved. However, the second school of thought insists that as women don't have any unneeded skin to trim, they are uncircumcised, and so must perform at least 2 circumcisions to be saved (performing a circumcision is half the blessing of getting one). There are sub-schools in the second school, attributing different values to performance, but I think you get the idea.
Fanciful, and fundamentally incorrect!
The Judaizers believed that in order to be saved one needed to be subject to the entire Law.
In the time being referred to being a Jew mean't, as a male, one was circumcised, and if you were circumcised in the context you became a Jew and therefore subject to the Law.
Circumcision was the outward manifestation of who one was.
Circumcised - Jew - .
Uncircumcised - Gentile.
Pure and simple.
Galatians most definitely and unambiguously places the Christian apart from the Law.
There is no righteousness by the Law despite the Law itself being holy and just.
There can only be condemnation by the Law - that is why "the curse of the law" is the curse of the law.
The Law is not done away with because the New Covenant is in operation.
However, no Christian can be simultaneously under grace and under the Law.
One nullifies the other.
Either, one is justified by grace through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ who has fulfilled the righteous demands of the Law, or one takes the futile position of seeking justification by the works of the Law.
There are no other alternatives.
The Judaizers believed that in order to be saved one needed to be subject to the entire Law.
In the time being referred to being a Jew mean't, as a male, one was circumcised, and if you were circumcised in the context you became a Jew and therefore subject to the Law.
Circumcision was the outward manifestation of who one was.
Circumcised - Jew - .
Uncircumcised - Gentile.
Pure and simple.
Galatians most definitely and unambiguously places the Christian apart from the Law.
There is no righteousness by the Law despite the Law itself being holy and just.
There can only be condemnation by the Law - that is why "the curse of the law" is the curse of the law.
The Law is not done away with because the New Covenant is in operation.
However, no Christian can be simultaneously under grace and under the Law.
One nullifies the other.
Either, one is justified by grace through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ who has fulfilled the righteous demands of the Law, or one takes the futile position of seeking justification by the works of the Law.
There are no other alternatives.
Have you even read the covenant God gave to Israel ? The commandments given to walk in is not the same as the curses God also put in it if they were unfaithful and walked away from Him and served other god's. Just because someone gives someone a statute to walk in or do, does not automatically imply consequences for what will happen if you don't do it. It does not come with a condemnation by itself being alone unless said otherwise.
The letter to the Galatians does not place the believer in Christ outside obeying the commandments contained within the law, but outside the ordinances written against Israel and the law of sin and death pronounced for breaking it. Please read my previous post again. There is no longer after Christ righteousness by the law only, because the Just must live by the faith which is through Jesus Christ. Seeking justification without the sacrifice of Christ even by the law does not work.
The letter to the Galatians does not place the believer in Christ outside obeying the commandments contained within the law, but outside the ordinances written against Israel and the law of sin and death pronounced for breaking it. Please read my previous post again. There is no longer after Christ righteousness by the law only, because the Just must live by the faith which is through Jesus Christ. Seeking justification without the sacrifice of Christ even by the law does not work.
J
Agreed. People these days need to toughen up a little. The bible (especially KJV) isn't afraid to say things as they are. God wasn't scared to use physical circumcision as a sign of his covenant, and uses it to talk about how our hearts, lips, ears should be. Women shouldn't be embarrassed about this part of Christian doctrine, men shouldn't be shy. Although, as even demonstrated in your examples, uncircumcision was always an unclean and a bad thing in the bible, so I can understand somewhat keeping that quiet, if one was.
Ewww. Its funny, but no matter how much feminists talk about perceived inequality of women in the bible, they never talk about this. They don't like the idea of selling female slaves for silver, but buying a princess for foreskins? Well, that must be okay. Either princesses were worth a lot less those days, or foreskins a lot more...
Lol. "I'll see your 100 Philistine foreskins, and raise you a further 100 Philistine foreskins"? Saul didn't ask David for any more after that, so presumably he had enough for the rest of his life. I can almost imagine David spilling 2 buckets full on the floor, and Saul yelling "Get those out of my palace!"
When I was younger and read this passage, I actually thought that foreskins must have been some sort of currency in Israel at the time. :|
Satan won't give up, and his Judaisers won't, either. I think now they are just becoming bolder about their preaching of things like circumcision, as Christians have been so weakened.
Ewww. Its funny, but no matter how much feminists talk about perceived inequality of women in the bible, they never talk about this. They don't like the idea of selling female slaves for silver, but buying a princess for foreskins? Well, that must be okay. Either princesses were worth a lot less those days, or foreskins a lot more...
Lol. "I'll see your 100 Philistine foreskins, and raise you a further 100 Philistine foreskins"? Saul didn't ask David for any more after that, so presumably he had enough for the rest of his life. I can almost imagine David spilling 2 buckets full on the floor, and Saul yelling "Get those out of my palace!"
When I was younger and read this passage, I actually thought that foreskins must have been some sort of currency in Israel at the time. :|
Satan won't give up, and his Judaisers won't, either. I think now they are just becoming bolder about their preaching of things like circumcision, as Christians have been so weakened.
Sorry, this is not correct.
The law is a curse because nobody can satisfy the demands of the law - simple as that.
If you seek righteousness by the Law your eternal condemnation is assured.
If a believer places themselves under the Law they will be condemned as well because obedience to the Law is unattainable in any circumstances.
The law is a curse because nobody can satisfy the demands of the law - simple as that.
If you seek righteousness by the Law your eternal condemnation is assured.
If a believer places themselves under the Law they will be condemned as well because obedience to the Law is unattainable in any circumstances.
If this is what you believe, then go ahead. No one can come to the father unless He draws them to Him. What you are saying is wrong and I agree with you in your 2nd statement which you can read in the post you answered to. Those who live after the flesh (sinful nature contrary to the will of God) and not after the Spirit will die.
- Status