(ritual) circumcisions today

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graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
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#61
If this is what you believe, then go ahead. No one can come to the father unless He draws them to Him. What you are saying is wrong and I agree with you in your 2nd statement which you can read in the post you answered to. Those who live after the flesh (sinful nature contrary to the will of God) and not after the Spirit will die.
Mate, if it was possible to attain righteousness by obedience to the Law then the biggest and most foolish mistake in history occurred when Jesus allowed Himself to be crucified because then it was for nothing!
Jesus Christ died on that cross because He was the only person in history able to satisfy the righteous demands of the Law.
If we are saved it is purely on the merits of Jesus Christ and nothing, absolutely nothing else.
If you believe that you can gain brownie points for yourself by "obeying" the Law as an apparent Christian you are deluded. You can not satisfy the demands of the Law and curse for disobedience that you have tried so hard to emphasise will be yours to wear.

This is why Paul goes to such lengths in Romans and Galatians to emphasise that grace and the works of the Law are mutually incompatible in the context of attaining righteousness before God.
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
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#62
so... *if* circumcision is needed to complete a Christian, what do women do?

is it enough if they try to make sure all the men in their lives are circumcised?
Your post reminds me of that strange episode when having told Moses to go to Egypt and rescue the Israelites God decides to kill him because he wasn't circumcised. His wife saves the day by 'snipping' him herself'. I wonder why God didn't mention this requirement to him to begin with as a matter of life and death?.
 
May 28, 2016
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#63
Mate, if it was possible to attain righteousness by obedience to the Law then the biggest and most foolish mistake in history occurred when Jesus allowed Himself to be crucified because then it was for nothing!
Jesus Christ died on that cross because He was the only person in history able to satisfy the righteous demands of the Law.
If we are saved it is purely on the merits of Jesus Christ and nothing, absolutely nothing else.
If you believe that you can gain brownie points for yourself by "obeying" the Law as an apparent Christian you are deluded. You can not satisfy the demands of the Law and curse for disobedience that you have tried so hard to emphasise will be yours to wear.

This is why Paul goes to such lengths in Romans and Galatians to emphasise that grace and the works of the Law are mutually incompatible in the context of attaining righteousness before God.
If you believe you can live how ever you want even after receiving grace for your mistakes then you are seriously wrong. We are just going to have to test that boast don't we ? Someone is right, and someone has to be wrong. If I am wrong in walking with God in obedience to Him with the forgiveness that comes in Jesus Christ, then I wont be bad off. However if you are wrong then you are going to be in big trouble for doing your own thing and despising the right ruling of God. Which in my opinion is to trample all over the grace of God.
 
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Joshua_6

Guest
#64
Your post reminds me of that strange episode when having told Moses to go to Egypt and rescue the Israelites God decides to kill him because he wasn't circumcised. His wife saves the day by 'snipping' him herself'. I wonder why God didn't mention this requirement to him to begin with as a matter of life and death?.
I've wondered if perhaps Moses didn't consider himself (or his sons) one of God's people because his wife wasn't a native Israelite (remember God says of Moses he was the most humble man on Earth), and so didn't circumcise? Perhaps God wanted to show everyone the importance of circumcision, or even that circumcision wasn't a "boys only club", and that women are just as much His people, even if they lack the excess skin to get physically snipped.

'Though she's not talked about much, Zipporah's quick wrist saved the life of one of the greatest men in the Old Testament, who would not have become great, without her.
 
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Joshua_6

Guest
#65
If you believe you can live how ever you want even after receiving grace for your mistakes then you are seriously wrong. We are just going to have to test that boast don't we ? Someone is right, and someone has to be wrong. If I am wrong in walking with God in obedience to Him with the forgiveness that comes in Jesus Christ, then I wont be bad off. However if you are wrong then you are going to be in big trouble for doing your own thing and despising the right ruling of God. Which in my opinion is to trample all over the grace of God.
Actually, if you're wrong, you're destined for hell (hence the strong words in Galatians), as you have been bewitched into trading salvation through grace for salvation through snipping an unneeded bit of skin. It may provide health benefits for a man and his wife, but it certainly doesn't provide any spiritual benefit, or score any "brownie points" with God.
 
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graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
2,180
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#66
If you believe you can live how ever you want even after receiving grace for your mistakes then you are seriously wrong. We are just going to have to test that boast don't we ? Someone is right, and someone has to be wrong. If I am wrong in walking with God in obedience to Him with the forgiveness that comes in Jesus Christ, then I wont be bad off. However if you are wrong then you are going to be in big trouble for doing your own thing and despising the right ruling of God. Which in my opinion is to trample all over the grace of God.
Nobody said what you are alleging.
Certainly not I.
As a child of God adopted into the family of God by the blood of Jesus and indwelt by the Spirit my absolute desire is to please God.
There is no doubt we are to do good works and be solid citizens, not only on earth, but, also in our new Kingdom.
However, whatever we do neither saves us nor condemns us in this situation.
Our position as children of God is secure.

There are plenty of individuals on this forum that believe that once saved we are then placed again under the demands of the Law. This is just not so for to be in that situation guarantees our condemnation since we are unable to satisfy the demands of the Law.
Instead we are free in a way that is difficult to understand for some - we are free to do all the things that cannot be dictated by Law.
The best example that I think of is love - agape love.
No statute of Law however composed can compel one to love another with unconditional love.
The reason why is that a statute of law can only establish minimum standards for compliance and so, given the nature of agape love makes this concept unable to be legislated.
Christians however, freed from the dictates of the Law, are free to do what cannot be legislated including expressing agape love.
 
May 28, 2016
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#67
Actually, if you're wrong, you're destined for hell (hence the strong words in Galatians), as you have been bewitched into trading salvation through grace for salvation through snipping an unneeded bit of skin. It may provide health benefits for a man and his wife, but it certainly doesn't provide any spiritual benefit, or score any "brownie points" with God.
I thought once you were in Christ you can never loose your secure position in him no matter what according to many on this forum. You see I already am in Christ and He in me and I choose to obey because I have a desire to do so. Do you ?
 
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#68
My two cents. And sorry in advance for the rambling.

The law and the prophets, sola scriptural, as it is written is where we get our daily bread .Outside of it we can know nothing pertaining to God... not seen.

I don’t think its seeking the approval of our God by not following a commandment of the Lord. The temporal commandment as a mere shadow simply does not apply anymore.


Defining words can sometimes help get to the foundation of the doctrines of God. Changing the meaning of even one word intended by the author can change the whole doctrine. We must be careful on how we hear what I would consider poetic language of God. And that is whether it is historical true as a parable or uses as a story to give us the spiritual understanding .In either case so that we can hear God who remains without form properly .

Circumcision as any ceremonial law that uses the temporal flesh, a shadow or metaphor as part of the fleshly ordinance was required but did nothing for the conscience. it cannot enter ones soul . To circumcise is to “cut off” the flesh or be “cut off from the land of the living” saying the same thing in another way .

The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:Which was a figure/parable for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them “until the time of reformation”. Heb 9:8

It along with other fleshly ordinances was used to announce the coming of our bloody husband, Christ used to show the suffering of Christ, the gospel of our salvation. This was beforehand and the glory that did come .The veil was rent in indicating the time of reformation has come. Christ came in the flesh and was "cut off" from the flesh when he said it the demonstration is finished.... the Holy Spirit Christ returned to the father, while His literal blood, literally returned to the lifeless, spiritless rudiment of this corrupted world as where it came from.

What I have experienced is most people simply do not look at it as a reformation. In doing so according to my bias today I believe they can lose the benefit as seeing it as a key like all of God word as that in which the gates of hell could never prevail against.


Again the ceremonial laws in respect to the flesh as that seen all where used to point ahead ubtill the time of reformation. they administered the gospel of our salvation that today Christians are receiving.

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the
Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, “but unto us” they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that” have” preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. 1Pe 1:9

This was up until the time of reformation when he did come in the fullness of time. .. It was required for the period of time beginning with Abraham, ending with Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. A total of 42 generations. When looking at the "generations" of Christ in Mathew 1

The book of "the generation of Jesus Christ", the son of David, the son of Abraham.Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; Mat 1:1-2

Through verse 17 ending with Joseph married to Mary.

Mat 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

In many cases it would appear a person must seek the spiritual understanding found in parables, again what I consider the poetic language of God . They like used with the doctrine of circumcision and must be mixed with faith the unseen principle for hearing God aright.

We are given an example as a lesson to Moses who was considered as we are a member as part of the bride of Christ the church, in the parable below. Twice in the valuable space of scripture God uses Christ as our “bloody husband” to announce the gospel of Christ beforehand.

And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me. So he(the Lord God ) let him (Moses) go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision. Exo 4:24-26

Isaiah helps further the gospel in respect to the suffering of Christ beforehand also again to circumcise is to be cut off from the flesh to show that "not seen" the faith principle ....spirit life was given.

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
 
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Joshua_6

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#69
I thought once you were in Christ you can never loose your secure position in him no matter what according to many on this forum. You see I already am in Christ and He in me and I choose to obey because I have a desire to do so. Do you ?
If you truly are in Christ, you would obey His teaching. And his teaching is that "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love." (Gal 5:6).

Do you obey Christ's teaching? Or perhaps you serve a different (false) christ?
 
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If you truly are in Christ, you would obey His teaching. And his teaching is that "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love." (Gal 5:6).

Do you obey Christ's teaching? Or perhaps you serve a different (false) christ?
I sure do. Accepting or preaching the circumcision doctrine (Pharisee sect belief without Christ) avails nothing. Do you even read my posts ?

Matthew 5:17

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 28:19

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Either you accept this or you don't.
 
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Joshua_6

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#71
I sure do. Accepting or preaching the circumcision doctrine (Pharisee sect belief without Christ) avails nothing. Do you even read my posts ?
So do you accept that Christ says "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love." (Gal 5:6). If you are in Jesus Christ, based on His words, does circumcision availeth any thing? What about uncircumcision?
 
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#72
So do you accept that Christ says "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love." (Gal 5:6). If you are in Jesus Christ, based on His words, does circumcision availeth any thing? What about uncircumcision?
Do you not understand my words ? First of all galatians was written by Paul. He is talking about what I wrote in the previous post. No I don't believe living like a Pharisee did avails anything. I believe in the Words of Christ. I believe in being obedient to the gospel delivered unto us as Jesus commanded in matthew 28.
 
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#73
So do you accept that Christ says "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love." (Gal 5:6). If you are in Jesus Christ, based on His words, does circumcision availeth any thing? What about uncircumcision?

Amen

Because it is in respect to the faith of Christ, the Holy Ghost, as the faith of God according to his outward demonstration as a labor of his love none of the shadows that were used up until the time of reformation provided anything other than a shadow. Christ has come in the flesh, the shadows (every one ) gave way temporally to sight.

Today we no longer know Christ after the flesh as a few did ,he remains without mother or father, beginning of days or end of Spirit life.
 
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Joshua_6

Guest
#74
Do you not understand my words ? First of all galatians was written by Paul. He is talking about what I wrote in the previous post. No I don't believe living like a Pharisee did avails anything. I believe in the Words of Christ. I believe in being obedient to the gospel delivered unto us as Jesus commanded in matthew 28.
As I understand, you said:
Those who accept circumcision instead of Christ are those of the Pharisees of the circumcision party who did not believe Christ had come, that was still trying to be justified by the law only and by sacrificing of animals instead of believing the gospel of Jesus Christ.
The Galations did not accept circumcision instead of Christ. They accepted circumcision as well as Christ. Hence Paul's epistle to the Galations.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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#75
This is the why you think the holy law of the commandments is done away with: You think Paul is saying the law is done away with when Jesus died as a sacrifice for sins and the penalty for it. You must understand that Paul is talking in he's letters about the "curse of the law" and "ordinances" contained within the law which was against them because of what would happen to them if they did not stay faithful to God's covenant He made with the children of Israel. Paul is also writing about the law of sin and death which no longer applies to those who believe and are born again and follow Christ. Those who accept circumcision instead of Christ are those of the Pharisees of the circumcision party who did not believe Christ had come, that was still trying to be justified by the law only and by sacrificing of animals instead of believing the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is why I strongly warn people that are not staying faithful to God after having received Christ and the rebirth, because people do get it wrong and think believers should not obey God's commandments which He has given to us to follow. And thereby causing people to sin against the Creator and hinder the purpose of God which is for us to be reconciled to Him and to walk with Him in holiness without condemnation for the disobedience and death of the past and fear because we walk with Him and have a desire to obey Him. If we live after the flesh and continue in the flesh and not the Spirit we will die.


2 Corinthians 2:7 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
let's take it one step at a time and see where we agree

we both agree that every person who accepts circumcision is obligated to keep the whole law.

does it seem reasonable to you then that
a person who
doesn't accept circumcision is
not obligated to keep the whole law.
 
May 28, 2016
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#76
let's take it one step at a time and see where we agree

we both agree that every person who accepts circumcision is obligated to keep the whole law.

does it seem reasonable to you then that
a person who
doesn't accept circumcision is
not obligated to keep the whole law.
A person who accepts the circumcision doctrine is no different than a modern day jewish person. Therefore they are obliged to keep the whole law, which they have not done(They are guilty). They have no sacrifice for their sins. God does not accept animal sacrifices or anything different than the sacrifice of Christ.
 
J

Joshua_6

Guest
#77
A person who accepts the circumcision doctrine is no different than a modern day jewish person. Therefore they are obliged to keep the whole law, which they have not done(They are guilty). They have no sacrifice for their sins. God does not accept animal sacrifices or anything different than the sacrifice of Christ.
Agreed. But what is "the circumcision doctrine"? Is it circumcision + Christ, or circumcision instead of Christ? I hold that both are "circumcision doctrines".
 
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#78
As I understand, you said:
The Galations did not accept circumcision instead of Christ. They accepted circumcision as well as Christ. Hence Paul's epistle to the Galations.
Galatians 5 11

And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. 12I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

Paul is saying: And if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution ? (If he did) then would the offense(and persecution) of the crucifixion of Christ have ceased from him.

Paul would that those that troubled them with the doctrine of the circumcision be cut off from among them.

Galatians 5:7

Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 8This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#79
let's take it one step at a time and see where we agree

we both agree that every person who accepts circumcision is obligated to keep the whole law.

does it seem reasonable to you then that
a person who
doesn't accept circumcision is
not obligated to keep the whole law.
I am late to the discussion so I will start here.

1. Circumcision was a sign given to abraham, so was not even part of the law. It was given to him and his desendents only as a sign of his covenant with them. It was also given as part of the law, as to how it is to be done.

2. Circumcision is a custom given to jews. A jew, or Person of Isreal, even in the NT was called a people of the circumcision. vs Gentiles who were called the uncircumcised.

3. In ACTS 21, we See that paul urged no gentile to be circumcised, He only said they had a few things they should do when the topic of jews demanded that gentiles be circumcised and follow the law. This was his answer.


[SUP]25 [/SUP]But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing,[SUP][d][/SUP] except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.”

4. The topic of a person who is circumcised is indebted to keep the whole law was in response to those who said if you want to be saved, You not only need to have faith in Christ, But you have to be circumcised also. Otherwise, you will not be saved, and are breakers of the law. The answer is this, If you have to be circumcised to be saved, You have to follow the whole law. and be perfect without sin to be saved, For this is the only way one can save themselves by the law..


Now my opinion on circumcision. It is a health issue (or so it seems) if one wants to do it to their children, Great, If one does not. No biggy.. It will not affect ones salvation one way or the other. And has nothing to do with whether a gentile is following the law or not. A gentile, saved or not, is not in sin if they have not been, and do not get circumcised.
 
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#80
Agreed. But what is "the circumcision doctrine"? Is it circumcision + Christ, or circumcision instead of Christ? I hold that both are "circumcision doctrines".
The circumcision doctrine is the bible without the new testament. They(the jews) are still waiting for the voice crying in the wilderness, which was John the baptist. But the sects of that time (and today) are not even satisfied with only the scriptures. They are also a religion of man doctrines and teachings which is contrary to the scriptures they claim to follow and they elevate this doctrine even above the Word of God.
 
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