So what about the fourth commandment?

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beta said:
And your intent is to get rid of people who do not agree with you by calling them Offenders etc ?
Well, that's one way to treat your neighbour...apart from stoning them, which you also seem to approve of.

Now we can see how well 'love' works without the first Commandment. Jesus mentions two and none are greater than these Mk 12v29-31. The second does not have priority over the first !
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not at all, I said I hoped Mike would stay around... just saying that the site is intended for fellowship...





jcha talked of reluctance about the idea of stoning...

10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ecc+9&version=nasb

I think the law works best when a person puts their whole energy into it, it brings delight and rejoicing!

************************************

does Jesus say that loving God fulfills all the commandments?
 
disciplemike said:
odd that no one ever says "Thou shalt not murder" is just a shadow.
Click to expand...

Ok,

Thou shalt not murder is a shadow of Christ,

If you have the Holy Spirit within you, Will you murder?

If we have the love of God/Jesus within us, will we murder?

If we will not murder, because of the Holy Spirit within us,

What need is there for the commandment?

Thou shall not murder is a shadow of the Holy Spirit in the body of Christ.
------------------

ALL the Sabbaths, are shadows of Jesus.

Observance of the ritual, of not working on the Sabbath, is with out substance.

The Pharisee's proved that!

They kept the Sabbath (and the Law) but their heart's weren't in it, was Jesus pleased with them?

Did keeping the Sabbath show/prove, that they were approved by God?

Was the fact, that they kept the Sabbath, proof from God, that they were approved by Him?

Their hearts weren't in it!
------------------

To teach the Law, is to teach that you can be like the Pharisees.

They show/prove that you can keep the written Law, but still not be "approved" by Jesus.

------------------------------------
You must have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (the love of God/Jesus).

The Holy Spirit is the substance/love of Jesus.

What law does God live under?

There is no law for Jesus,

He lived under the Law during His lifetime,

But when He died He was free from the Law.

Now we have His Spirit, the Holy Spirit, which is the love of God within us.

Shall we now return to the commandments,

Thou shall not commit murder,

Thou shall not steal,

You shall not bear false witness,

What need is there for the commandments, when we have the Holy Spirit?

If we have the Spirit of Jesus, we are free from the Law.
---------------------

All days, nights, and in between, are Holy to God.

God/love does not change,

His Holy Spirit within us does not change, by day, or hour, or phase of the moon,

His love is constant, at all times.

If we say that it does change, then we are not perfect in His love.
 
Question: "Who were the Sadducees and the Pharisees?"

Answer: The Gospels refer often to the Sadducees and Pharisees, as Jesus was in constant conflict with them. The Sadducees and Pharisees comprised the ruling class of Israel. There are many similarities between the two groups but important differences between them as well.

The Sadducees: During the time of Christ and the New Testament era, the Sadducees were aristocrats. They tended to be wealthy and held powerful positions, including that of chief priests and high priest, and they held the majority of the 70 seats of the ruling council called the Sanhedrin. They worked hard to keep the peace by agreeing with the decisions of Rome (Israel at this time was under Roman control), and they seemed to be more concerned with politics than religion. Because they were accommodating to Rome and were the wealthy upper class, they did not relate well to the common man, nor did the common man hold them in high opinion. The common man related better to those who belonged to the party of the Pharisees. Though the Sadducees held the majority of seats in the Sanhedrin, history indicates that much of the time they had to go along with the ideas of the Pharisaic minority, because the Pharisees were popular with the masses.

Religiously, the Sadducees were more conservative in one main area of doctrine. The Pharisees gave oral tradition equal authority to the written Word of God, while the Sadducees considered only the written Word to be from God. The Sadducees preserved the authority of the written Word of God, especially the books of Moses (Genesis through Deuteronomy). While they could be commended for this, they definitely were not perfect in their doctrinal views. The following is a brief list of beliefs they held that contradict Scripture:

1. They were extremely self-sufficient to the point of denying God's involvement in everyday life.

2. They denied any resurrection of the dead (Matthew 22:23; Mark 12:18-27; Acts 23:8).

3. They denied any afterlife, holding that the soul perished at death, and therefore denying any penalty or reward after the earthly life.

4. They denied the existence of a spiritual world, i.e., angels and demons (Acts 23:8).

Because the Sadducees were more concerned with politics than religion, they were unconcerned with Jesus until they became afraid He might bring unwanted Roman attention. It was at this point that the Sadducees and Pharisees united and conspired to put Christ to death (John 11:48-50; Mark 14:53; 15:1). Other mentions of the Sadducees are found in Acts 4:1 and Acts 5:17, and the Sadducees are implicated in the death of James by the historian Josephus (Acts 12:1-2).

The Sadducees ceased to exist in A.D. 70. Since this party existed because of their political and priestly ties, when Rome destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in A.D. 70, the Sadducees were also destroyed.

The Pharisees: In contrast to the Sadducees, the Pharisees were mostly middle-class businessmen, and therefore were in contact with the common man. The Pharisees were held in much higher esteem by the common man than the Sadducees. Though they were a minority in the Sanhedrin and held a minority number of positions as priests, they seemed to control the decision making of the Sanhedrin far more than the Sadducees did, again because they had the support of the people.

Religiously, they accepted the written Word as inspired by God. At the time of Christ's earthly ministry, this would have been what is now our Old Testament. But they also gave equal authority to oral tradition and attempted to defend this position by saying it went all the way back to Moses. Evolving over the centuries, these traditions added to God's Word, which is forbidden (Deuteronomy 4:2), and the Pharisees sought to strictly obey these traditions along with the Old Testament. The Gospels abound with examples of the Pharisees treating these traditions as equal to God's Word (Matthew 9:14; 15:1-9; 23:5; 23:16, 23, Mark 7:1-23; Luke 11:42). However, they did remain true to God's Word in reference to certain other important doctrines. In contrast to the Sadducees, they believed the following:

1. They believed that God controlled all things, yet decisions made by individuals also contributed to the course of a person's life.

2. They believed in the resurrection of the dead (Acts 23:6).

3. They believed in an afterlife, with appropriate reward and punishment on an individual basis.

4. They believed in the existence of angels and demons (Acts 23:8).

Though the Pharisees were rivals of the Sadducees, they managed to set aside their differences on one occasion—the trial of Christ. It was at this point that the Sadducees and Pharisees united to put Christ to death (Mark 14:53; 15:1; John 11:48-50).

While the Sadducees ceased to exist after the destruction of Jerusalem, the Pharisees, who were more concerned with religion than politics, continued to exist. In fact, the Pharisees were against the rebellion that brought on Jerusalem's destruction in A.D. 70, and they were the first to make peace with the Romans afterward. The Pharisees were also responsible for the compilation of the Mishnah, an important document with reference to the continuation of Judaism beyond the destruction of the temple.

Both the Pharisees and the Sadducees earned numerous rebukes from Jesus. Perhaps the best lesson we can learn from the Pharisees and Sadducees is to not be like them. Unlike the Sadducees, we are to believe everything the Bible says, including the miraculous and the afterlife. Unlike the Pharisees, we are not to treat traditions as having equal authority as Scripture, and we are not to allow our relationship with God to be reduced to a legalistic list of rules and rituals.
 
abcdef said:
Ok,

Thou shalt not murder is a shadow of Christ,

If you have the Holy Spirit within you, Will you murder?

If we have the love of God/Jesus within us, will we murder?

If we will not murder, because of the Holy Spirit within us,

What need is there for the commandment?

Thou shall not murder is a shadow of the Holy Spirit in the body of Christ.
------------------

ALL the Sabbaths, are shadows of Jesus.

Observance of the ritual, of not working on the Sabbath, is with out substance.

The Pharisee's proved that!

They kept the Sabbath (and the Law) but their heart's weren't in it, was Jesus pleased with them?

Did keeping the Sabbath show/prove, that they were approved by God?

Was the fact, that they kept the Sabbath, proof from God, that they were approved by Him?

Their hearts weren't in it!
------------------

To teach the Law, is to teach that you can be like the Pharisees.

They show/prove that you can keep the written Law, but still not be "approved" by Jesus.

------------------------------------
You must have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (the love of God/Jesus).

The Holy Spirit is the substance/love of Jesus.

What law does God live under?

There is no law for Jesus,

He lived under the Law during His lifetime,

But when He died He was free from the Law.

Now we have His Spirit, the Holy Spirit, which is the love of God within us.

Shall we now return to the commandments,

Thou shall not commit murder,

Thou shall not steal,

You shall not bear false witness,

What need is there for the commandments, when we have the Holy Spirit?

If we have the Spirit of Jesus, we are free from the Law.
---------------------

All days, nights, and in between, are Holy to God.

God/love does not change,

His Holy Spirit within us does not change, by day, or hour, or phase of the moon,

His love is constant, at all times.

If we say that it does change, then we are not perfect in His love.
Click to expand...

You have done your best to explain why we no longer need the law/commandments.
Now please explain why people who claim the HS who is pure and perfect, still sin ? They obviously still 'transgress the law/commandments since they reject them. Not keeping the Sabbath holy is a sure sign they are not walking with Jesus 24/7....not in the flesh - not in the Spirit - not in love .
 
Dan_473 said:
not at all, I said I hoped Mike would stay around... just saying that the site is intended for fellowship...


jcha talked of reluctance about the idea of stoning...

10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ecc+9&version=nasb

I think the law works best when a person puts their whole energy into it, it brings delight and rejoicing!

************************************

does Jesus say that loving God fulfills all the commandments?
Click to expand...

To love God is to keep His Commandments 1Joh 5v3, Deut 5v29. Jesus did !!!
Jesus was of the same Spirit as God His Father, yet Jesus never said He did not need to keep any Commandments...while WE who claim HIS Spirit do....don't you think that a bit ODD ? what makes us better than Him ?
 
beta said:
To love God is to keep His Commandments 1Joh 5v3, Deut 5v29. Jesus did !!!
Jesus was of the same Spirit as God His Father, yet Jesus never said He did not need to keep any Commandments...while WE who claim HIS Spirit do....don't you think that a bit ODD ? what makes us better than Him ?
Click to expand...

Exactly! Jesus kept it because we couldn't and because of that the law had power over us and the powers of darkness used the law against mankind. When Jesus fulfilled law, He met it requirements bring it to an end. We died to the law. We are no longer committed to that marriage. The law gives sin its power, so why would you or anyone else want to put yourself back under those weak and miserable principles of which Peter said "that neither we nor our ancestors were able to bear.

It is amazing to me how many people there are that don't even know how they are saved and that because they continue to promote the works of the law as a requirement for salvation along side of Christ's fulfillment of it. Jesus stood in our place in paying the penalty for sin and he stood in our place in fulfillment of the law. Jesus did not fulfill the law in order to keep it going, but to bring it to its end as fulfilled. I wish you that you people could understand this concept.

The only commands that we have come under the banner of faith, which are to believe in the One whom God sent and to love one another.

"But now, having died to what bound us, we have been released from the Law, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
 
graceNpeace said:
What happens to those who don't follow the fourth commandment according to you?
Refresh our memories please!
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the accusation was made that someone said the works of the law are required for salvation.
I am asking for proof. who said that?
Christians should not run around making false accusations. That is bearing a false witness. Not good.
 
if someone does not obey the 4th commandment,
this means they are "breaking" the 4th commandment.
it is fairly simple.
 
graceNpeace said:
And, according to you, what are the consequences?
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breaking a commandment is sin.
the wages of sin is death. (physical and spiritual)
the Messiah paid the penalty, death, for us.
not to afford us more sin, but to cause us to repent and allow Him to live through us!
 
disciplemike said:
breaking a commandment is sin.
the wages of sin is death. (physical and spiritual)
the Messiah paid the penalty, death, for us.
not to afford us more sin, but to cause us to repent and allow Him to live through us!
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And, so what happens to a Christian who goes to church on Sunday's?
 
graceNpeace said:
And, so what happens to a Christian who goes to church on Sunday's?
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good question. As far as I know, they would still be protected under grace, although most of them are (?unknowingly?) in disobedience to the 4th commandment. It is not unlike the dozens of examples in the Tanach. The Shepherds lead the flock astray in certain areas for sure.

Then again, the sheep need to wake up also.
Most are lazy (in Bible Study),
and comfortable with the status quo.
 
Ahwatukee said:


Exactly! Jesus kept it because we couldn't and because of that the law had power over us and the powers of darkness used the law against mankind. When Jesus fulfilled law, He met it requirements bring it to an end. We died to the law. We are no longer committed to that marriage. The law gives sin its power, so why would you or anyone else want to put yourself back under those weak and miserable principles of which Peter said "that neither we nor our ancestors were able to bear.

It is amazing to me how many people there are that don't even know how they are saved and that because they continue to promote the works of the law as a requirement for salvation along side of Christ's fulfillment of it. Jesus stood in our place in paying the penalty for sin and he stood in our place in fulfillment of the law. Jesus did not fulfill the law in order to keep it going, but to bring it to its end as fulfilled. I wish you that you people could understand this concept.

The only commands that we have come under the banner of faith, which are to believe in the One whom God sent and to love one another.

"But now, having died to what bound us, we have been released from the Law, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Click to expand...

Mistakes in the first few sentences....no need to read any more.
Since when do the Commandments, spiritual, holy, just and good come from/have been used by the power of darkness ?
Jesus must have followed the devil all His human life according to your opinion...because HE kept His Fathers Commandments ! You are as good as saying the devil was His father .
Please think about what you are implying. And why is it so hard , or impossible to respect and observe the Sabbath day as Jesus kept it ? I would just like to know ....since we are told that the commandments are not hard to keep .
I am sure I could say more if I read all your post....not that you would want to hear it !
 
Ahwatukee said:


Exactly! Jesus kept it because we couldn't and because of that the law had power over us and the powers of darkness used the law against mankind. When Jesus fulfilled law, He met it requirements bring it to an end. We died to the law. We are no longer committed to that marriage. The law gives sin its power, so why would you or anyone else want to put yourself back under those weak and miserable principles of which Peter said "that neither we nor our ancestors were able to bear.

It is amazing to me how many people there are that don't even know how they are saved and that because they continue to promote the works of the law as a requirement for salvation along side of Christ's fulfillment of it. Jesus stood in our place in paying the penalty for sin and he stood in our place in fulfillment of the law. Jesus did not fulfill the law in order to keep it going, but to bring it to its end as fulfilled. I wish you that you people could understand this concept.

The only commands that we have come under the banner of faith, which are to believe in the One whom God sent and to love one another.

"But now, having died to what bound us, we have been released from the Law, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Click to expand...

The powers of darkness use ''people'' to MISunderstand what God says, they have no power over the Word of God per se. It is the 'people's Mind' they interfere with. I have been there, I know !
 
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