i see your point. the thing is that i'm not questioning love or the feeling or the belief itself, i'm questioning the objective reality of the Holy Spirit. in your example there is usually no issue about the objective reality of the person you love, the objective reality of your wife or pet is fact.
In the case of the Holy Spirit, i'm suggesting the objective reality of it is not established and that we need to establish it before we affirm it is objective and analyse our relationship with it. the love in me is a subjective feeling. people can love things that do not exist, a character in a book for example, or an imaginary friend. my love, or any other subjective emotion or feeling is no garantee that the object of the love or feeling is real. do you agree with that?
In the case of the Holy Spirit, i'm suggesting the objective reality of it is not established and that we need to establish it before we affirm it is objective and analyse our relationship with it. the love in me is a subjective feeling. people can love things that do not exist, a character in a book for example, or an imaginary friend. my love, or any other subjective emotion or feeling is no garantee that the object of the love or feeling is real. do you agree with that?
In my reply I asked you to prove to my satisfaction that the *love* you have for the object (real or imaginary), is real. My point is love (itself) can't be directly proven but can be indirectly proven from those affected by it. Just like gravity. Gravity is an intangible force that can't be directly proven of itself, but is indirectly proven from the object(s) it acts upon. Other weaker forces in physics are measured the same way. Scientifically, this is a widely accepted method of proving intangible forces in our world as objectively real: by noting their effects on objects they act upon/against.
Gravity can't be seen, touched, tasted, heard, or smelled...but you can feel it. It moves upon objects with the potential to be moved. Love can't be seen, touched, tasted, heard or smelled...but you can feel it. It moves people with the potential to love. So likewise the Holy Spirit isn't described as something you can see, touch, taste, hear or smell...but is described to being felt and moving people with the potential to do the will of God.
So I pose these questions:
- Are there intangible forces in our world that are indirectly proven as objectively real by the things they act upon - that have the potential to be acted upon - by those intangible forces?
- Are love and gravity such intangible forces accepted as objective reality?
- Is the Holy Spirit *described* as an intangible force that acts upon people as objects of its force?
- Similarly as any other intangible force, can't The Holy Spirit be indirectly proven as objective reality by studying the objects it is described to act upon (i.e. those with the potential to be acted upon)?
sure it was a statement. i'm not completely clueless, I do know a thing or two and i try to convey them. i make statements about the things i think are true to support why i'm asing the questions i ask and why the answers i'm given are not satisfying to me. my questions do not come out of thin air, they are based on things i have established to my satisfaction were true, and they are the next step.
are you contesting my statement and conclusion above? i would be curious for you to explain on what ground.
are you contesting my statement and conclusion above? i would be curious for you to explain on what ground.
Since you'd mentioned several times that you're seeking truth, the act of making statements (which I have no problem with you making) is counter-productive to that effort. For instance from the language of your last question here it would seem that you actually seek for me (or someone) to *disprove* what you already believe is the truth. Do you see the difference I'm pointing out? I tend to avoid that exercise with this topic because no one can convince someone who's already made up their mind (as I'm sure you've run into).