Allusions To A Purgatory

[RBA238]

My Dad Mentally abused me growing up. I was the youngest of 4 kids..But when he was slowly dying i was divorced did not know God then, i moved in their house and became the Banker, Driver, Grocery Shopper, House cleaner, and and the Cook along with holding down a job. One night he told me he was sorry with tears in his eyes, we hugged, and I felt better and He died 5 months later, and i.was at peace with myself....I am praying you do the Same..let it go..

 

[WebersHome]

-
Allusion (08)

POSIT: Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matt 5:48)

RESPONSE: Rome insists that the Lord's commandment alludes to the necessity of a
purgatory. But isn't that reading something into his words instead of listening to what
they have to say? Yes, it is.

The perfection Christ spoke of wasn't sinless perfection. The Lord's adverb "therefore"
directed his audience's attention back to his previous statements regarding cliques,
castes, class distinctions, prejudice, partiality, snobbery, favoritism, and bias.

● Matt 5:43-48 . .You have heard that it was said: Love your neighbor and hate your
enemy. But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that
you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the
good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

. . . If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax
collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than
others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is
perfect.

● Rom 2:11 . . There is no favoritism with God.

● Jas 2:1 . . My brothers, as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, don't practice
partiality.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

 

[Adstar]

Good read Brother, excellent. I could cite him a dozen more verses like you stated, but The Lord told his Apostles not to "Cast They're pearls before the Swine". The Devil always stands before The Children of God and Unbeleivers to goad us to arguments. Satan enjoys this. Thanks again Bro, for your input God Bless..

Well i have found that often you never really know if the person your dealing with is swine until you show them some pearls.. It is in their reply that they reveal they mocking and false allegations and swinery .. But at lest now i know for sure who the swine is..

 

[Namiette]

The one thing that caused a total break from my Family was when i finally was able to bring the Truth of the Gospel to my Mom just before she died of Cancer. Months before she died, she accepted Jesus as her Savior and walked away from the Catholic Church to become a member of a True Christian Church.

This was 20 years ago and still to this day my dad REFUSES to even speak to me. He blames me for putting my Mother in Hell because she left the Catholic Church and now cannot enter into Heaven.

As for my Dad i know I should forgive him, BUT I WILL NOT! I know this is not what a Christian should do but life was a Hell living with my dad. Its hard to forgive him for all the physical and sexual abuse i had to endure from him when i was growing up.

Very touching story. I hope that my family will accept Christ and walk out from Catholic Church too. I know it is sometimes very hard to forgive, but try it. Your father had done a horrible things to you, but please, try to forgive him. In the first two classes on a primary school my classmates bullied me. Then I went on a another school. Even now I am afraid of them. I feel unsafe whenever I see them near. But I try to forgive them. I do not hate them, I am praying for them. It is very hard, but in Christ I can do it. Pray for strength to forgive. Christ does not want you to be filled with grievance and injustice. He wants us to learn to forgive in the way He forgives us. Please, try it. I am praying for you and for your father.

 

[WebersHome]

-
Allusion (09)

POSIT: Heb 12:10 . . For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own
pleasure; but He for our profit, that we might be partakers of His holiness.

RESPONSE: Though that verse may be taken to allude to a place of afterlife
purification; when taken in full context, it's easily seen that the discipline it describes
pertains to the present, not later on after people are dead.

● Heb 12:11-13 . . Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but
grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto
them which are exercised thereby. Therefore, lift up the hands which hang down, and
the feeble knees; and make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be
turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

● Heb 12:7-8 . . Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what
son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes
discipline), then you are illegitimate and not true sons.

It only stands to reason then, that a good kid doesn't need disciplining because he's
self-disciplined and there's nothing in either his character or his behavior that needs
correcting. The reason I pointed that out is because Leo X's Bull of Exurge Domine
attests that purgatorians are not only sinless but also incapable of sin. So then, since
there would be nothing in either their character or their behavior that would need
correction; then the discipline aspect of a purgatory is both a non sequitur and an
oxymoron.

FYI: Overly-sensitive Catholics often view any and all rebuttals of Rome's dogma as
"bashing". But countering Rome's errors with scripture is not bashing; no, on the
contrary: it's sensible.

● Acts 17:10-11 . . As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to
Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. Now the Bereans were of
more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great
eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

 

[WebersHome]

-
Allusion (10)

POSIT: For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that be the will of God,
than for doing evil. For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for
the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God.

. . . went to preach to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient
while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark,
in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. (1Pet 3:17
21)

RESPONSE: Peter's revelation is a pretty useful proof text for Trinitarians
because it identifies Christ as the Holy Spirit prior to the Lord's birth. How
so? Because in the days of Noah; Yhvh said: My Spirit will not contend with
man forever (Gen 6:3). According to Peter, Christ was My Spirit; but he
didn't preach in person; rather, Christ preached by inspiring Noah to preach
for him.

● 2Pet 2:5 . . Noah; a preacher of righteousness

The Spirit of Christ not only inspired Noah; but also the other prophets too.

● 1Pet 1:10-12 . . Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the
grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care,
trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in
them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories
that would follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving
themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told
you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent
from heaven.

A common misconception of 1Pet 3:17-21 is that while Jesus' crucified body
reposed in death for three days and nights, his spirit went to an undisclosed
afterlife location and preached the Gospel to fallen angels. Others insist
he preached to deceased antelilluvians. Well, neither theory will work beause
according to Rome, neither deceased men, nor fallen angels, are
afforded an opportunity to repent on the other side.

Catechism of the Catholic Church: paragraph 393 . . There is no repentance
for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after
death.

The reasonable interpretation of 1Pet 3:17-21 is that Christ, by means of the
Holy Spirit, preached to the antediluvians prior to their drowning in the
Flood; during the ark's construction; rather than after the Flood when they
were all dead; because "now" is the time to listen; not later.

● 2Cor 6:1-2 . . Working together, then, we appeal to you not to receive the
grace of God in vain. For He says: "In an acceptable time I heard you, and
on the day of salvation I helped you." Behold, now is a the acceptable time;
behold, now is the day of salvation.

The souls of 1Pet 3:17-21 are in prison. Well . . . conceptually, Rome's
purgatory isn't supposed to be a penal colony. It's more like finishing school
than lock-up.

The koiné Greek word for "prison" is phulake (foo-lak-ay') which is an
ambiguous word that essentially means to place under guard; which would
not be necessary for a purgatorial population since according to Pope Leo X's
Bull of Exurge Domine, the occupants of a purgatory are unable to sin.
Bottom line is: Leo's purgatorians can be trusted to stay put on their own
without a system of confinement to make sure they do.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

 

[TrailofTruth]

Catholics make up so many things. There is a holding place until the judgement day, but not as the Catholics describe it, but as Luke 16:19-31 describes it. We know this is not referring to after the judgment because the rich man requested Lazarus to go back and warn his family, and Abraham said they have the prophets to listen to- which proves this was during the Old Testament, and that people were still on the earth.

On a side note: There are no evil ghosts. No one who goes to torment can escape and go to the earth to haunt the living. It is demons who convince people of such things.

 

[WebersHome]

-
Allusion (11)

POSIT: 1Cor 15:29-30 . . Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do
who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, then why
are people baptized for them?

RESPONSE: Paul didn't say: "what will we do who are baptized for the dead?
If the dead are not raised at all, why are we baptized for them?

No; the people identified as "those people" were not affiliated with the
apostles.

NOTE: There's no record of Christ teaching vicarious baptisms; no, quite the
opposite. Baptism is something you have to do for yourself, plus; it's joined
at the hip with indoctrination.

● Matt 28:18-20 . . All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to
me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the
name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them
to obey everything I have commanded you.

In other words: Christian baptism is intended for disciples rather than non
disciples. So then, even if vicarious baptisms were legit, they would be
restricted to deceased believers.

● Mark 16:15-16 . . He said to them: Go into all the world and preach the
gospel everywhere to everybody. Whoever believes and is baptized will be
spared, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

● John 3:18 . . He who believes in him is not condemned; but he who does
not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name
of the only begotten Son of God.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

 

[RBA238]

Catholics make up so many things. There is a holding place until the judgement day, but not as the Catholics describe it, but as Luke 16:19-31 describes it. We know this is not referring to after the judgment because the rich man requested Lazarus to go back and warn his family, and Abraham said they have the prophets to listen to- which proves this was during the Old Testament, and that people were still on the earth.

On a side note: There are no evil ghosts. No one who goes to torment can escape and go to the earth to haunt the living. It is demons who convince people of such things.

Amen, and praise his Holy Name.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Catholics make up so many things. There is a holding place until the judgement day, but not as the Catholics describe it, but as Luke 16:19-31 describes it. We know this is not referring to after the judgment because the rich man requested Lazarus to go back and warn his family, and Abraham said they have the prophets to listen to- which proves this was during the Old Testament, and that people were still on the earth.

On a side note: There are no evil ghosts. No one who goes to torment can escape and go to the earth to haunt the living. It is demons who convince people of such things.

So true! That place would be Sheol/Hades in the Hebrew and Greek, respectively. Unfortunately, there are those who, instead receiving the event of the rich man and Lazarus in the literal sense, i.e. at face value, they interpreted it as a parable and thereby distort its meaning.

 

[RobbyEarl]

So true! That place would be Sheol/Hades in the Hebrew and Greek, respectively. Unfortunately, there are those who, instead receiving the event of the rich man and Lazarus in the literal sense, i.e. at face value, they interpreted it as a parable and thereby distort its meaning.

as if Jesus would lie. Amen

 

[Ahwatukee]

as if Jesus would lie. Amen

Hi RobbyEarl,

Yeah, what I have found is that for the most part, those who believe in soul-sleep or those who believe in annihilation are those who interpret the rich man and Lazarus as a parable and that because the literal interpretation has these two men dying with their spirits departing and going to Sheol/Hades where all both, including Abraham, are conscious and aware, with the rich man being in torment in flame. And so they have to make it a parable because it kills both ideas.

 

[WebersHome]

-
Allusion (12)

POSIT: In the scene depicted at Luke 16:19-31, we see that the dead rich
man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and is anxious to
tell them where he is so they don't join him. But there is no suffering in
heaven, nor is there compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from
God and those in hell are deprived of God's graces for all eternity. So where
is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

RESPONSE: That's an odd statement considering that no doubt the majority
of Rome's followers are counting on purgatory; even Popes want to go
there; and actually expect to. In other words; if purgatory is Catholicism's
back up, then why was the rich man worried that his family would come
there? Shouldn't he have been worried that they might not?

The posit quoted above alleges that the rich man must be in a purgatory
because people in hell are unable to feel compassion. While it can be safely
said that people destined for hell lack the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22) it
cannot safely be said that they are totally insensitive. Human nature is
capable of a pretty broad range of feelings all by itself sans the grace of
God. True, human nature cannot love as God loves, but it can , and it does,
love as humans love; and one of human nature's basic instincts is passionate
concern for the safety of its own kin.

Does anyone reading this have deceased kin? Do you know for a fact where
they are at present? Well, I can tell you one thing for a fact; that if your
deceased kin are by chance in the wrong place, then they are enduring
terrible anguish not being able to communicate that information to you.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

 

[RBA238]

-
Allusion (12)

POSIT: In the scene depicted at Luke 16:19-31, we see that the dead rich
man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and is anxious to
tell them where he is so they don't join him. But there is no suffering in
heaven, nor is there compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from
God and those in hell are deprived of God's graces for all eternity. So where
is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

RESPONSE: That's an odd statement considering that no doubt the majority
of Rome's followers are counting on purgatory; even Popes want to go
there; and actually expect to. In other words; if purgatory is Catholicism's
back up, then why was the rich man worried that his family would come
there? Shouldn't he have been worried that they might not?

The posit quoted above alleges that the rich man must be in a purgatory
because people in hell are unable to feel compassion. While it can be safely
said that people destined for hell lack the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22) it
cannot safely be said that they are totally insensitive. Human nature is
capable of a pretty broad range of feelings all by itself sans the grace of
God. True, human nature cannot love as God loves, but it can , and it does,
love as humans love; and one of human nature's basic instincts is passionate
concern for the safety of its own kin.

Does anyone reading this have deceased kin? Do you know for a fact where
they are at present? Well, I can tell you one thing for a fact; that if your
deceased kin are by chance in the wrong place, then they are enduring
terrible anguish not being able to communicate that information to you.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

No, The Scripture says in Luke , The Rich man was In HELL (KJV) It is telling us Those in hell are being tormented 24/7. They feel heat, thirst,.Pain...The Beggar was in "Abraham' s Bosum" a holding place until after the Great White throne Judgement spoken about in,
Revelation 10 verse 11.

Hell is the other "Holding" Place where people go until after The Great White throne judgement. After that final Judgement The Bad people are thrown into "The Lake of Fire" all those who were in HELL go there..
Abraham's Bosum folks who are worthy go into.heaven forever..

 

[WebersHome]

-
Allusion (13)

POSIT: Without holiness no one will see the Lord. (Heb. 12:14). We need a
final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs
during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional
state of purgatory.

RESPONSE: That allusion contradicts Pope Leo X's Bull of Exurge Domine
which states, among other things, that purgatory's inhabitants are unable to
sin. Obviously then; there is no need to refine their sanctification since a
sinless state of perfection is about as truly holy as one needs to get.

● Matt 5:8 . . Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God.

But the allusion utterly fails to discern the difference between who is
identified as God and who is identified as the Lord.

● 1Cor 8:5-6 . . For though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or
on earth (as there are many gods and many lords) yet for us there is one
God: the Father . . . and one Lord: Jesus Christ

So then, Heb 12:14 is talking about seeing Christ rather than seeing his
Father. And since Rev 1:7 predicts that every eye will eventually see him,
then the seeing spoken of in Heb 12:14 involves something other than
visual; viz: something a bit more intimate.

● Matt 11:27 . . No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows
the Father except the Son; and anyone to whom the Son wishes to reveal
him.

Q: What's the secret to knowing the Lord?

A: In one word: Loyalty.

● John 14:21 . . Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the
one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I
will love him and reveal myself to him.

● John 14:23 . .Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will
love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him.

● John 15:14 . .You are my friends if you do what I command you.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

 

[WebersHome]

-
Allusion (14)

POSIT: Luke 23:43 -- many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the
good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. But since there was
no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you
today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma
after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you
today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have
emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that
some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven).

RESPONSE: Neither Jesus nor the thief went "right to heaven". Two
passages make that very clear. One is located at Matt 12:40 where Jesus
predicted that he'd be in the heart of the earth during his demise. Another is
located at John 20:17 where Jesus informed Mary Magdalena after his
recovery that he had not yet been up to see his Father. Obviously then, the
paradise to which Jesus and the thief went was down rather than up.

That particular allusion reveals not only its author's lack of trust in English
translations of the Bible, but also a lack of trust in Roman Catholic Bible
scholars, and also an element of confusion in their thinking as regards the
words paradise and heaven.

Below is the Roman Catholic version of Luke 23:43 from three separate
Roman Catholic Bibles representing literally decades of Roman Catholic
scholarship.

Confraternity: And Jesus said to him, "Amen I say to thee, this day thou
shalt be with me in paradise."

Douay Rheims: And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou
shalt be with me in paradise.

2011 New American Bible: He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you
will be with me in Paradise."

All three of those Roman Catholic Bibles are certified with imprimaturs to
contain nothing harmful to Roman Catholic faith and practices. Note in
particular the type and location of the punctuation in those three official
Catholic versions.

FYI: The trick is: there's more than one paradise in the New Testament. One
is down inside the earth (Matt 12:40 and Luke 16:19-3). Another is located
in a non-disclosed celestial region (2Cor 12:2-4). And yet another is located
with God (Rev 2:7).

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

 

[WebersHome]

-
Allusion (15)

POSIT: Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive
light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven
there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

RESPONSE: Rome's way of interpreting that passage is one way, but it's not the only
way. However; before suggesting an alternative, it would be prudent to examine the
entire parable in context.

● Luke 12:42-48 . . Who, then, is the faithful and prudent steward whom the master will
put in charge of his servants to distribute [the] food allowance at the proper time?
Blessed is that servant whom his master on arrival finds doing so. Truly, I say to you, he
will put him in charge of all his property.

. . . But if that servant says to himself; "My master is delayed in coming" and begins to
beat the menservants and the maidservants, to eat and drink and get drunk, then that
servant’s master will come on an unexpected day and at an unknown hour and will
punish him severely and assign him a place with the unfaithful.

. . .That servant who knew his master’s will but did not make preparations nor act in
accord with his will shall be beaten severely; and the servant who was ignorant of his
master’s will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only
lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be
demanded of the person entrusted with more.

That parable doesn't target John Q and Jane Doe rank and file pew warmers, rather, it
specifically targets people in charge. The Greek word for "steward" is oikonomos (oy
kon-om'-os) which identifies someone employed to supervise others.

The fate of stewards found in willful dereliction of duty is not only flogging but also "a
place with the unfaithful".

The Greek word for "unfaithful" is apistos (ap'-is-tos) which identifies unbelievers. Their
"place" isn't purgatory, rather, their place is described as follows:

● Rev 21:8 . . But as for the unfaithful, their lot is in the burning pool of fire and sulfur,
which is the second death.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

 

[WebersHome]

-
Allusion (16)

POSIT: 1Pet 1:3-7 . . Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus
Christ, who in his great mercy gave us a new birth to a living hope through
the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is
imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you who by the
power of God are safeguarded through faith, to a salvation that is ready to
be revealed in the final time.

. . . In this you rejoice, although now for a little while you may have to
suffer through various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith, more
precious than gold that is perishable even though tested by fire, may prove
to be for praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

RESPONSE: 1Pet 1:3-7 is sometimes understood to be a reiteration of 1Cor
3:5-15, but the tests are not the same.

1Cor 3:5-15 tests the quality of one's works, while 1Pet 1:3-7 tests the
quality of one's faith.

The timing is different too. 1Cor 3:5-15's testing takes place in the afterlife,
while 1Pet 1:3-7's testing takes place in this life.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

 

[WebersHome]

-
Allusion (17)

POSIT: Rev 21:3-4 . . Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live
with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be
their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more
death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed
away.

Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But
there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their
tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

RESPONSE: The tears, the death, the mourning, the crying, and the pain are
related to the great white throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15, which will
be a public spectacle. In other words, people will have to watch as friends,
family, associates, and loved ones are literally pale with terror, lips
trembling, mouths too dry to speak, shrieking, sobbing, screaming, weeping,
yelping, and bellowing like wounded dogs as their eyes dart about in sheer
white-knuckled panic; desperately looking for someone, anyone, to help
them as powerful celestial beings drag them off to death akin to a foundry
worker falling into a vat of molten iron.

Paul said the greatest of all gifts is love (1Cor 13:13). But let me tell you
something: Love is inconvenient. Sensitive folk cannot sit through a scene
like the one described above and not be moved by it. The effect will be so
overwhelming that nothing less than the power of God will suffice to get
them over it.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

 

[WebersHome]

-
Allusion (18)

POSIT: Heb 12:5-11 teaches that the Father's children have to undergo
discipline; for example David in 2Sam 11:1-2Sam 12:14. Though God
spared David's life for the mortal sins of premeditated murder and adultery,
he was still taught a lesson for what he did. Had David not been disciplined
for his sins in this life, he would have been taken to the woodshed for them
in purgatory.

RESPONSE: That posit makes perfect sense. It's totally logical; and except
for one teensy little hiccup, it would fly. The hiccup? It's an amalgam of
humanistic reasoning and inspired scripture. In other words: the posit
contains an element of truth, but it's not the whole truth and nothing but the
truth.

That kind of reasoning is called sophistry; which Webster's defines as
reasoning or arguments that sound correct but are actually false. In point of
fact, one of the very reasons that Christ supplies his followers with
competent teaching is to steer them clear of clever deceivers skilled at
making an ecclesiastical truth sound like the God's truth. (Eph 4:11-14)

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=