Apostle Paul On Tongues In 1 Corinthians

[notuptome]

I'm not angry at you Roger. Just very concerned at your constant opposition to scripture and your intent to spread false information based on that. My real intent is to illuminate that so you may see what you are doing. But that requires you to have open eyes and an open mind, and I haven't seen any sign of that occurring.

For example, when God says that with faith the size of a mustard seed you can move mountains. You don't understand how so your response is ' you won't move mountains with your faith'. But your response should be, 'God says it can happen so even tho I don't understand it I still believe it can happen'. Just like edification coming from tongues. God says tongues provide edification. You say that can't be true since you don't understand how. You should instead say 'I don't understand how that works but God says it does so it must be true'.

You think that since you don't understand particular scriptures they must be false. When you can instead say, I don't understand it but scripture says so, so it must be true ... that is when you will begin to understand these things.

You actually expect people to believe that Jesus was being literal when He likened faith to a grain of mustard seed?

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

I understand the scriptures I also understand your improper application of those very same scriptures.

Just because you want something to be so don't make it so. If you reject the revelation of God then God will give you the revelation you desire. This is made clear in the first two chapters of Romans. 2 Thess speaks of the eventual result of receiving the revelation that man's heart seeks in opposition to Gods revelation.

If you need to hate on someone it might as well be me. At least that way someone else gets a break.

John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

You comparing the gift of tongues with pagan practices to discredit what fellow believers do by the Spirit of God is like comparing genuine prophecy with palm readers or tarot card readers to discredit the gift of prophecy. Just because there are counterfeits doesn't mean the real activity is false. That reasoning is fallacious.

VVhere in scripture do you see people using the gift of tongues to preach the Gospel to another person in their own language, of which the tongue speaker is ignorant? If you say Pentecost you might want to reread what took place. The people were praising God, speaking to the Father, and then the people came and heard them speaking in their language magnifying God (speaking to the Lord). They were not speaking to the people, or addressing them until Peter clarified what was taking place.

So far all your opposition to the gift of tongues has been shown to not be founded in scripture. Is it tradition? I don't know, but it has been shown to you plainly all throughout 1 Corinthians 14 that the gift of tongues has a private and public use, and that no one understands the person unless there is an interpreter. It has been shown in certain cases that the person can't be speaking in a language of the people present, otherwise it would contradict scripture that says no one understands them. It, also, has been shown that the tongues are not addressing people but are to God, the Father. It even speaks of praising God in the Spirit but no one can "amen" what you are singing because no one is interpreting your worship. You are edified but others are not.

There is so much to say on tongues, but its hard to even get there because your understanding of the gift of tongues is fallacious, in certain respects.

Telling the truth about tongues is not discrediting fellow believers. How is the modern practice of tongues different from the ancient pagan practice of chanting and repetitious prayers?

Mystical hyper-spiritualism is the direct result of turning away from Gods revelation and creating a self fulfilling revelation of man.

Your biblical exegesis is very lacking.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Was Peter preaching and clarifying to everyone from every country, or Just the Jews?

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

Acts 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers (Greek epidēmeō, which means a foreign resident) of Rome, Jews and proselytes


I believe Peter addressed Jews / proselytes, as it was the Day of Pentecost, a feast wherein all males were to present themselves to the Lord (Deut 16:16 Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles).

 

[BenFTW]

Telling the truth about tongues is not discrediting fellow believers. How is the modern practice of tongues different from the ancient pagan practice of chanting and repetitious prayers?

Mystical hyper-spiritualism is the direct result of turning away from Gods revelation and creating a self fulfilling revelation of man.

Your biblical exegesis is very lacking.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The Holy Spirit gives the utterance.

 

[notuptome]

The Holy Spirit gives the utterance.

That is the crux of the matter. You say it is the Holy Spirit but the Holy Spirit does not operate in contradiction to the word of God. You cannot provide anything beyond vague allusions to the scriptures to support what you condone in the church.

To have any scriptural support tongues must be languages. They must be human languages that are subject to interpretation by those who are familiar with the language.

Paul demonstrates the absurdity of prayer tongues when he says they are known only to God. They are wholly without merit to the prayer because they are unknown to him. You really think God is impressed by such foolishness?

Angelic tongues are much the same because we have nothing to profit from them. Simply a bit of hyperbole from Paul in the classic style of a Jewish teacher.

You are simply in love with the mysticism and hyper-spirituality you perceive in this activity.

Tongues are a sing on Gods judgment upon mankind for disobedience.

Ge 11:9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[BenFTW]

That is the crux of the matter. You say it is the Holy Spirit but the Holy Spirit does not operate in contradiction to the word of God. You cannot provide anything beyond vague allusions to the scriptures to support what you condone in the church.

To have any scriptural support tongues must be languages. They must be human languages that are subject to interpretation by those who are familiar with the language.

Paul demonstrates the absurdity of prayer tongues when he says they are known only to God. They are wholly without merit to the prayer because they are unknown to him. You really think God is impressed by such foolishness?

Angelic tongues are much the same because we have nothing to profit from them. Simply a bit of hyperbole from Paul in the classic style of a Jewish teacher.

You are simply in love with the mysticism and hyper-spirituality you perceive in this activity.

Tongues are a sing on Gods judgment upon mankind for disobedience.

Ge 11:9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

All of that to say you don't believe God's word plainly stated in 1 Corinthians 14? The gift of tongues has a public and private use, of which when ministering needs to be interpreted for the edification of another (in mind). You guys act oblivious to verses that contradict your position, and try to put a meaning into the text that isn't present.

The apostle Paul himself clearly distinguished his private and public use of tongues. He says, "Yet in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words than ten thousand in an unknown tongue." Does this not imply he uses the gift outside of the church? He speaks of praying in the Spirit and singing in the Spirit (which is praying and singing in tongues clearly revealed in the context of scripture).

All of this clearly revealed but you, again, remain oblivious intentionally. You are so heavily opposed to it because of people's misuse of it to pretend they are spiritually better than you but you need to keep in mind not all believers subscribe to such a childish mindset. I speak in tongues. I do not consider me having that gift to make me far more spiritual than you, or better than you. I see it as a tool that I can use to minister to you, for your edification. I also know it has personal uses, through scripture. However, a decent portion of believers have this opposition, hesitance, disregard for, and disrespect towards a gift of the Spirit the Lord operates through. Not to mention some subtle form of disdain for the tongue speaker.

Ignorance of this gift and willful avoidance of clear scripture is dividing believers. You guys don't even address the verses given to you. You simply keep spouting off your preconceived notions due to someone misusing the gift. Don't worry about them, what does scripture say? It is clear. Tongues have a public and private use, the public needing interpretation for the edification of others. Its extremely simple.

 

[RBA238]

All of that to say you don't believe God's word plainly stated in 1 Corinthians 14? The gift of tongues has a public and private use, of which when ministering needs to be interpreted for the edification of another (in mind). You guys act oblivious to verses that contradict your position, and try to put a meaning into the text that isn't present.

The apostle Paul himself clearly distinguished his private and public use of tongues. He says, "Yet in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words than ten thousand in an unknown tongue." Does this not imply he uses the gift outside of the church? He speaks of praying in the Spirit and singing in the Spirit (which is praying and singing in tongues clearly revealed in the context of scripture).

All of this clearly revealed but you, again, remain oblivious intentionally. You are so heavily opposed to it because of people's misuse of it to pretend they are spiritually better than you but you need to keep in mind not all believers subscribe to such a childish mindset. I speak in tongues. I do not consider me having that gift to make me far more spiritual than you, or better than you. I see it as a tool that I can use to minister to you, for your edification. I also know it has personal uses, through scripture. However, a decent portion of believers have this opposition, hesitance, disregard for, and disrespect towards a gift of the Spirit the Lord operates through. Not to mention some subtle form of disdain for the tongue speaker.

Ignorance of this gift and willful avoidance of clear scripture is dividing believers. You guys don't even address the verses given to you. You simply keep spouting off your preconceived notions due to someone misusing the gift. Don't worry about them, what does scripture say? It is clear. Tongues have a public and private use, the public needing interpretation for the edification of others. Its extremely simple.

Agree!!!..

 

[notuptome]

All of that to say you don't believe God's word plainly stated in 1 Corinthians 14? The gift of tongues has a public and private use, of which when ministering needs to be interpreted for the edification of another (in mind). You guys act oblivious to verses that contradict your position, and try to put a meaning into the text that isn't present.

The apostle Paul himself clearly distinguished his private and public use of tongues. He says, "Yet in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words than ten thousand in an unknown tongue." Does this not imply he uses the gift outside of the church? He speaks of praying in the Spirit and singing in the Spirit (which is praying and singing in tongues clearly revealed in the context of scripture).

All of this clearly revealed but you, again, remain oblivious intentionally. You are so heavily opposed to it because of people's misuse of it to pretend they are spiritually better than you but you need to keep in mind not all believers subscribe to such a childish mindset. I speak in tongues. I do not consider me having that gift to make me far more spiritual than you, or better than you. I see it as a tool that I can use to minister to you, for your edification. I also know it has personal uses, through scripture. However, a decent portion of believers have this opposition, hesitance, disregard for, and disrespect towards a gift of the Spirit the Lord operates through. Not to mention some subtle form of disdain for the tongue speaker.

Ignorance of this gift and willful avoidance of clear scripture is dividing believers. You guys don't even address the verses given to you. You simply keep spouting off your preconceived notions due to someone misusing the gift. Don't worry about them, what does scripture say? It is clear. Tongues have a public and private use, the public needing interpretation for the edification of others. Its extremely simple.

1Cor 14:1 ¶ Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

Any problems so far? He that speaketh in an unknown language speaks to God because only God knows what he is saying. It is a mystery to those that hear him but cannot understand him. If he were to preach all would be benefited by his proclaiming of the word of God. This of course in a language understood by the hearers. God hardly is benefited by someone preaching His word to Him.

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Here the speaker feels good about himself but no one else is benefited.

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Known languages are here in this verse. Languages that must be interpreted to be beneficial so that the word of God is communicated to the folks present.

6 ¶ Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

Catching on here even Paul must communicate through a common language or all is in vain.

7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

This ought to be clear. Even in nature certain expectations are required to produce the desired outcome. A trumpet call to battle must sound like a trumpet. A dog should not sound like a cat. You should not sound like a chicken.

9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

Don't get much plainer than this. Understanding is essential.

10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

Here we go again. Do I sound like a barbarian to you? Are you unable to understand the meaning?

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

Edification or increasing understanding.

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

If you know a tongue and know the Lord then dedicate your ability to translating that others may understand the tongue.

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 ¶ What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Where is your understanding? You claim it is simple but it seems to have eluded you. You have a construct that has it's roots in new age mysticism. You seek hyper-spiritual status because you have not gotten a sound foundation in Gods word. You keep trying to prove to yourself that you are saved by possessing gifts but you have abandoned Gods truth regarding those gifts.

1 Cor 13:8 ¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

This is part of scripture as well.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[reneweddaybyday]

1Cor 14:1 ¶ Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

Any problems so far? He that speaketh in an unknown language speaks to God because only God knows what he is saying. It is a mystery to those that hear him but cannot understand him. If he were to preach all would be benefited by his proclaiming of the word of God. This of course in a language understood by the hearers. God hardly is benefited by someone preaching His word to Him.

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Here the speaker feels good about himself but no one else is benefited.

Scripture does not say the speaker "feels good about himself", nor does Scripture say "no one else is benefited".

What Scripture does say is that the speaker is "edified".

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Known languages are here in this verse. Languages that must be interpreted to be beneficial so that the word of God is communicated to the folks present.

Please do not forget to read the end of verse 5 which states that when utilized properly, the manifestation of tongues together with the manifestation of interpretation of tongues results in the church receiving edification.

6 ¶ Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

Catching on here even Paul must communicate through a common language or all is in vain.


7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

This ought to be clear. Even in nature certain expectations are required to produce the desired outcome. A trumpet call to battle must sound like a trumpet. A dog should not sound like a cat. You should not sound like a chicken.

9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

Don't get much plainer than this. Understanding is essential.

10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

Here we go again. Do I sound like a barbarian to you? Are you unable to understand the meaning?

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

Edification or increasing understanding.

Edification means to build up. The manifestation, when properly used in the church congregation, will build up the believers. And verse 3 also indicates there is exhortation, and comfort.

Quit changing words in Scripture. Edification is edification; exhortation is exhortation, and comfort is comfort. If you provide Scripture which indicates the purpose of tongues/tongues with interpretation/prophecy is "increasing understanding", I will be happy to include that as a benefit to the manifestation. Thank you.

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

If you know a tongue and know the Lord then dedicate your ability to translating that others may understand the tongue.

Interpretation of tongues is not an ability to translate. Interpretation of tongues is the Spirit working within the believer to bring forth the interpretation of that which was just spoken via the manifestation of tongues.

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 ¶ What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Where is your understanding?

Understanding takes place in the mind (the outward man).

The edification to the person who speaks in tongues is in the spirit (the inward man).

What prayer is to the mind/heart/soul (outward man), praying in tongues is to the spirit (the inward man). It edifies the person spiritually ... in that inward part that was created within when the believer was born again ... that is where the edification and the benefit takes place.

You claim it is simple but it seems to have eluded you. You have a construct that has it's roots in new age mysticism. You seek hyper-spiritual status because you have not gotten a sound foundation in Gods word. You keep trying to prove to yourself that you are saved by possessing gifts but you have abandoned Gods truth regarding those gifts.

It is simple and the simplicity of Scripture has eluded you.

Your misunderstanding of the manifestation does not mean when God energizes the manifestation it is

"a construct that has it's roots in new age mysticism",

or that those who speak in tongues "seek hyper-spiritual status because [they] have not gotten a sound foundation in Gods word ",

or that those who speak in tongues "keep trying to prove to [themselves] that [they] are saved by possessing gifts",

or that those who speak in tongues "have abandoned Gods truth regarding those gifts".

1 Cor 13:8 ¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

This is part of scripture as well.

Yes, it sure is. You have yet to prove your cessationist dogma.

 

[notuptome]

Scripture does not say the speaker "feels good about himself", nor does Scripture say "no one else is benefited".

What Scripture does say is that the speaker is "edified".

You do not understand plain English. That is exactly what it says. The speaker is edified and the rest are simply out of luck. Too bad too sad.

Please do not forget to read the end of verse 5 which states that when utilized properly, the manifestation of tongues together with the manifestation of interpretation of tongues results in the church receiving edification.

Fair enough if you are talking about human languages and there are folks there to interpret. Hardly a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. The speaker speaks in Spanish and someone who speaks Spanish and English interprets the Spanish into English.

Edification means to build up. The manifestation, when properly used in the church congregation, will build up the believers. And verse 3 also indicates there is exhortation, and comfort.

Quit changing words in Scripture. Edification is edification; exhortation is exhortation, and comfort is comfort. If you provide Scripture which indicates the purpose of tongues/tongues with interpretation/prophecy is "increasing understanding", I will be happy to include that as a benefit to the manifestation. Thank you.

Sorry edification is understanding. Getting something of merit out of what is being said requires understanding.

Interpretation of tongues is not an ability to translate. Interpretation of tongues is the Spirit working within the believer to bring forth the interpretation of that which was just spoken via the manifestation of tongues.

Now you are making stuff up to suit your predetermined bias. That is not what the text presents.

Understanding takes place in the mind (the outward man).

The edification to the person who speaks in tongues is in the spirit (the inward man).

What prayer is to the mind/heart/soul (outward man), praying in tongues is to the spirit (the inward man). It edifies the person spiritually ... in that inward part that was created within when the believer was born again ... that is where the edification and the benefit takes place.

Hyper-spiritualism and new age mysticism. It is not about you feeling special but about growth in the knowledge of the Lord. True Spiritual growth by feeding on the word of God not departing from reality into a dream world.

It is simple and the simplicity of Scripture has eluded you.

Your misunderstanding of the manifestation does not mean when God energizes the manifestation it is

"a construct that has it's roots in new age mysticism",

or that those who speak in tongues "seek hyper-spiritual status because [they] have not gotten a sound foundation in Gods word ",

or that those who speak in tongues "keep trying to prove to [themselves] that [they] are saved by possessing gifts",

or that those who speak in tongues "have abandoned Gods truth regarding those gifts".

Three gifts ended.

Yes, it sure is. You have yet to prove your cessationist dogma.

The bible proves itself.

Why not seek a manifestation of Gods truth as revealed in His word? See the true power and presence of the Holy Spirit as the word of God is opened and great blessing, edification and truth is revealed.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

The Holy Spirit is subject to the Father and does not create doctrine outside of the word of God.


For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[garee]

Tongues edifies the believer –

1 Corinthians 14:5 greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

It edifies the one who does the work . The work the Potter is forming Christ in does not say to the Potter you have no understanding.Turning the binding loosening law upside down

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

Yes prophecy is for those who have faith in respect to the faith of Christ. Signs are for the rebellious (no faith) It is two fold work of Christ. While some believed the prophecy ,the three thousand that did enter the kingdom of God as born again believers. Those who did not believe the prophecy it was a sign that they world not.

Since it is God from heaven giving the interpretation in the hearers language it edified God who does the work. He edifies the church. the church does not edify its self.

Originally Posted by UnderGrace
Paul says tongue speaking does not profit the Church (verse 6)
In the church, if tongues is not accompanied with interpretation of tongues, then only the person speaking in tongues is edified

1 Cor 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself.

That is not setting His approval on self-pride. Just showing what happens when men turn things upside down as if the interpretation into another language was of them.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You do not understand plain English. That is exactly what it says. The speaker is edified and the rest are simply out of luck. Too bad too sad.

I do understand "plain English".

I replied to your comment:

Here the speaker feels good about himself but no one else is benefited.

1 Cor 14:4: He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself

The word "edifieth" is the Greek word oikodomeō.

What reference material are you looking at that defines the word oikodomeō as "the speaker feels good about himself"? Thank you.

Fair enough if you are talking about human languages and there are folks there to interpret. Hardly a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. The speaker speaks in Spanish and someone who speaks Spanish and English interprets the Spanish into English.

Nope. Get rid of whatever useless commentary you read to come up with that understanding of the manifestation.

Sorry edification is understanding. Getting something of merit out of what is being said requires understanding.

The definition of the word oikodomeō is not changed into whatever you want just because you do not understand the manifestation.

The word oikodomeō means to build up.

3618 oikodoméō (from 3624 /oíkos, "a house" and domeō, "to build") – properly, to build a house (home, edifice); (figuratively) to edify – literally, "build someone up," helping them to stand (be strong, "sturdy").

HELPS Word Studies
copyright © 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc.
For complete text and additional resources visit: HelpsBible.com

Now you are making stuff up to suit your predetermined bias. That is not what the text presents.

That reply was made in response to this statement:

Interpretation is not an ability to translate. Interpretation of tongues is the Spirit working within the believer to bring forth the interpretation of that which was just spoken via the manifestation of tongues.

Your failure to comprehend the energizing by God within the believer does not mean the manifestation of interpretation of tongues is the natural ability of man to translate.

Hyper-spiritualism and new age mysticism. It is not about you feeling special but about growth in the knowledge of the Lord. True Spiritual growth by feeding on the word of God not departing from reality into a dream world.

More words spoken from a carnal [mis]understanding of the manifestation and how God energizes within the believer.

Three gifts ended.

Nope. The manifestation of the Spirit has not ended.

The bible proves itself.

Why not seek a manifestation of Gods truth as revealed in His word? See the true power and presence of the Holy Spirit as the word of God is opened and great blessing, edification and truth is revealed.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

The Holy Spirit is subject to the Father and does not create doctrine outside of the word of God.

The word of God does reveal the manifestation of the Spirit and gives instruction as to its proper usage. But you have turned from proper understanding and have followed the doctrine of man to the point where you not only do not understand, you have hardened your heart to God's truth concerning the matter. Hardening of heart results in nothing but trouble for the one who is hardened.

 

[RickyZ]

A plane flies over the deepest darkest jungle in Africa. Out of it falls a flight manual. The aborigines read and memorize every line of that flight manual. they know it by heart.

But not a one of them has ever sat in the pilot's seat. None have ever flown a plane.

One aborigine makes it to civilization. Seeing an airport he jumps in a cockpit. Assuming his book knowledge is all he needs, he attempts to fly. But having no practical experience in the real world application of his book smarts, he crashes and burns.

His tombstone bears a simple message.

"Here lies Roger. Despite his extensive book knowledge, he never got off the ground".

I don't hate you Roger. I feel sorry for you. You will never know the awesome joy in translating the power of God's written word into action that edifies the world.

 

[UnderGrace]

The Holy Spirit gives the utterance.

Well the utterance should be a language since that is the whole purpose of the gift of unknown language (tongue) for a purpose who does not understand the language being spoken.

 

[UnderGrace]

Please just tell me what knowledge, what understanding, what edification, has been delivered by this special spiritual language that required interpretation?

You keep insisting that the genuine manifestation is by Holy Spirit who uses an unknown language, of course it has to be unknown to prove it is spiritual since English is not spiritual enough, and God who chooses not to speak English then has to put an interpreter in place.

Sadly the true biblical purpose of tongues is denied and a man made doctrine (of 1901) is put in its place to feed the flesh, to me it is saying the written word and His grace are not sufficient.

Presently we do not need this manifestation because The gift is inseparable from its one and only unchanging purpose: to be a sign for non-believing Jews of the universal offer of salvation (Acts 2:17; 1 Cor. 14:20-22).

Paul does not address ecstatic speech. He addresses the genuine manifestation.

Paul was writing a letter to them because he had heard there were major issues, most biblical interpretation states he is addressing both based on all the problems in Corinth and what he had been told was happening.

Hi UnderGrace,

I hope/pray this day finds you well and full of God's blessings!



I read your post. I understood your point.

You do not understand how the manifestation of the Spirit operates. You are basically saying that when the manifestation is energized by the Holy Spirit, that is the same as what the Hindis practice in their chanting.




Right. And the genuine manifestation is needed in our day and time. But due to improper understanding, misinterpretation of Scripture, and a very successful campaign against the manifestation by the adversary, we do not see proper use in our day and time.

Have you ever thought about why the adversary would attack the operation of the manifestation? Figure that out and maybe you can begin to come to a proper understanding of the manifestation, its use, and its benefit to the body of Christ in our day and time.




And which verse supports your assertion that Paul was speaking of "ecstatic speech which is no language at all" as opposed to the genuine manifestation of speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues.

Paul does not address ecstatic speech. He addresses the genuine manifestation.



Nope. There needed to be interpretation in order for the whole body to be edified. Otherwise, the only person who was edified was the tongues-speaker.

Please note, if there is no interpreter, Paul does not say do not speak in tongues at all in the church. What he says is if there is no interpreter, the person is to speak in tongues silently between himself and God (1 Cor 14:28).




That is not what Scripture says. If you are in a church/gathering where everyone speaks the same language tongues with interpretation is proper (1 Cor 14:3-5).




This is not a proper understanding of the use of the manifestation of tongues and interpretation of tongues. According to 1 Cor 14:5, the manifestation of tongues with interpretation of tongues in the church body is so the church may receive edifying.




I agree there is improper use of the manifestation in our day and time. But this does not negate the genuine when it is properly utilized.

 

[eph610]

Please just tell me what knowledge, what understanding, what edification, has been delivered by this special spiritual language that required interpretation?

You keep insisting that the genuine manifestation is by Holy Spirit who uses an unknown language, of course it has to be unknown to prove it is spiritual since English is not spiritual enough, and God who chooses not to speak English then has to put an interpreter in place.

Sadly the true biblical purpose of tongues is denied and a man made doctrine (of 1901) is put in its place to feed the flesh, to me it is saying the written word and His grace are not sufficient.

Presently we do not need this manifestation because The gift is inseparable from its one and only unchanging purpose: to be a sign for non-believing Jews of the universal offer of salvation (Acts 2:17; 1 Cor. 14:20-22).





Paul was writing a letter to them because he had heard there were major issues, most biblical interpretation states he is addressing both based on all the problems in Corinth and what he had been told was happening.

In Acts 19.1-7 Paul finds some disciples at Ephesus that had John's Baptism of water, but not the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Paul Baptizes them in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and when he laid hands on them the Holy Spirit came upon them and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were 12 men this happened to. We assume it is not fact that 14 total men were present. The 12 + Paul + Luke. All of the men were likely conversing in Greek or possibly Hebrew or Aramaic. The point is, all the men were conversing in a known language.

But the Word says when the Holy Spirit came upon the 12 men, from the laying on of hands they they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

Why would the 12 men need to speak to Paul in a natural language again since they were all speaking the same language before the Holy Spirit came upon them? It is doubtful there were other people there.

If tongues were simply another or the same language and not anything else, then Acts 19.1-7 is a lie.

 

[UnderGrace]

In Acts 19.1-7 Paul finds some disciples at Ephesus that had John's Baptism of water, but not the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Paul Baptizes them in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and when he laid hands on them the Holy Spirit came upon them and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were 12 men this happened to. We assume it is not fact that 14 total men were present. The 12 + Paul + Luke. All of the men were likely conversing in Greek or possibly Hebrew or Aramaic. The point is, all the men were conversing in a known language.

But the Word says when the Holy Spirit came upon the 12 men, from the laying on of hands they they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

Why would the 12 men need to speak to Paul in a natural language again since they were all speaking the same language before the Holy Spirit came upon them? It is doubtful there were other people there.

If tongues were simply another or the same language and not anything else, then Acts 19.1-7 is a lie.

I see what you are saying but I think that each time the gift of tongues is recorded in Acts it is for a specific purpose and the gift itself has not changed from a language to an ecstatic utterance if that is what you are saying, In Acts 19 this is the final time the gift is recorded in Acts.

These twelve Gentile converts from Ephesus (19:1, 7) received an incomplete Gospel (19:2-5) because they say they only had water baptism. Again, tongues were a sign to the Jews (see 19:8) that God accepted the heathen Gentiles who turned to Christ. The purpose was missionary and evangelistic, and now with the inclusion of the last group, completes what God wanted to record.

The gift allowed them to evangelize as well to support the growing church that is the key!
The church needed supernatural support.
However, now we are complete in Christ and we have the canon.

While I do not hold a strict cessationist view, tongues has become something since (1901) that is was not.

 

[eph610]

I see what you are saying but I think that each time the gift of tongues is recorded in Acts it is for a specific purpose and the gift itself has not changed from a language to an ecstatic utterance if that is what you are saying, In Acts 19 this is the final time the gift is recorded in Acts.

These twelve Gentile converts from Ephesus (19:1, 7) received an incomplete Gospel (19:2-5) because they say they only had water baptism. Again, tongues were a sign to the Jews (see 19:8) that God accepted the heathen Gentiles who turned to Christ. The purpose was missionary and evangelistic, and now with the inclusion of the last group, completes what God wanted to record.

The gift allowed them to evangelize as well to support the growing church that is the key!
The church needed supernatural support.
However, now we are complete in Christ and we have the canon.

While I do not hold a strict cessationist view, tongues has become something since (1901) that is was not.

we are good undergrace...

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Please just tell me what knowledge, what understanding, what edification, has been delivered by this special spiritual language that required interpretation?

1 Corinthians 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.


In the church, when the manifestation of tongues and interpretation of tongues is properly utilized, the church receives edifying.

When God says something, He means it. No matter who does not believe it. We may or may not perceive the immediate edification, but for you to to deny the edification is to deny what God has written in Scripture.

You keep insisting that the genuine manifestation is by Holy Spirit who uses an unknown language, of course it has to be unknown to prove it is spiritual since English is not spiritual enough, and God who chooses not to speak English then has to put an interpreter in place.

I insist only that "the genuine manifestation" is energized "by Holy Spirit" as shown in 1 Cor 12:11 (But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit).

The rest of the above sentence is your misunderstanding of what I have stated on the pages of this thread.

Sadly the true biblical purpose of tongues is denied and a man made doctrine (of 1901) is put in its place to feed the flesh, to me it is saying the written word and His grace are not sufficient.

Yes, it is sad that the true biblical purpose of tongues is denied.

The written word of His grace specifically indicates that there is profit to the manifestation (1 Cor 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal) but this profit is not acknowledged due to improper understanding of Scripture, as well as improper utilization of the manifestation.

The written word of His grace specifically indicates edification takes place in the proper use of the manifestation of kinds of tongues, interpretation of tongues, prophecy (1 Cor 14:3, 1 Cor 14:5).

The written word of His grace specifically indicates the manifestation of kinds of tongues is the person speaking mysteries unto God (1 Cor 14:2) and that the person is edified (1 Cor 14:4) and that the person who speaks in tongues prays in the spirit (1 Cor 14:14), and blesses with the spirit (1 Cor 16), and gives thanks well (1 Cor 14:17).

The written word of His grace specifically indicates that in the congregation, if there is no interpretation, tongues is to be spoken silently to God by the believer (1 Cor 14:28)


Again, it is sad that the true biblical purpose of tongues is denied.

Presently we do not need this manifestation because The gift is inseparable from its one and only unchanging purpose: to be a sign for non-believing Jews of the universal offer of salvation (Acts 2:17; 1 Cor. 14:20-22).

And in the above statement, you deny the benefits shown above.

Paul does not address ecstatic speech. He addresses the genuine manifestation.

Paul was writing a letter to them because he had heard there were major issues, most biblical interpretation states he is addressing both based on all the problems in Corinth and what he had been told was happening.

What was going on in the church at Corinth was that the manifestation was utilized in a disorderly manner as shown in 1 Cor 14. But that was not the only problem. In 1 Cor 12, we see that members of Christ's body were slighted (1 Cor 12:21 the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you), there was schism in the body because there was no care one for another (1 Cor 12:25), the believers were not walking in love (1 Cor 12:31-13:13).

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The gift allowed them to evangelize as well to support the growing church that is the key!
The church needed supernatural support.

To "evangelize as well to support the growing church" is not the intended purpose for the manifestation.

In the church congregation, the manifestation of speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, prophecy is designed to edify the church, exhort the church, comfort the church (1 Cor 14:3, 1 Cor 14:5).

Privately, the manifestation of kinds of tongues edifies the individual speaking (1 Cor 14:4); it is the individual speaking mysteries unto God (1 Cor 14:2); it is the individual blessing with the spirit (1 Cor 14:16); it is the individual giving thanks well (1 Cor 14:17).

However, now we are complete in Christ and we have the canon.

And how does speaking in tongues in any way, shape, or form cause the believer to not be complete in Christ, or rob him/her (or any other member of the body) of the canon?