Apostle Paul On Tongues In 1 Corinthians

[eph610]

Your comments on Speaking in Tongues is typical of those who never received The Holy Ghost or ever witnessed it in a Spirit filled Church Service. You Remind us of someone who took two flight lessons and now things they are qualified to fly a Boeing 747..tsk tsk

Don't argue with me, argue with Paul, he also told the Church that tongues was over emphasized. Then email Luke and ask him why Power came first then tongues, then the Word preached then 3,000 souls saved, so instead of shooting the messenger check the Word and then refute me. Then get with Jesus and ask why he said when the HOly Ghost comes upon you it will be for power, not tongues.

I have been in plenty of Spirit filled services where the Holy Ghost moved through and convinced people to repent, delivered them from the powers of darkness into the kingdom of his dear son, bound up their broken hearts, restore sight to their blindness of the Gospel and set them free from their past lives and healed all that were oppressed of the devil, we never got a tongue, but we got souls born into the kingdom.

Likewise I have been to Spirit filled services where a true NT demonstration of the gifts manifested, including tongues and it was beautiful.

I have been in the typical movement/denomination "spirit filled service" where the music stops on the 3rd song on purpose and there is a quiet pause and someone screams out shondai, Hyundai, french fry, large sized tie and then everyone waits hoping the pastor or someone will interpret the message and a interpretation comes forth to tell us what we already know in the Word and all is well, because it was in order and sister oh so spiritual gave the interpretation as she usually does, because she is the most filled in the room.

Then I have been to spirit filled services where there were 10-12 tongues and interpretations and a bunch of hocus pocus of flesh was manifesting, visiting evangelists or self proclaimed prophets forcing people to speak in tongues, by coaching them, grabbing their lips, slapping them on the back, and all other sorts of flesh fest foolishness, including pushing them down when they would not get "slain" in the spirit and fall down. Lots of people standing up and yammering in tongues, while the guest minister shills for his pay....

Then I have watched as no music is playing and we are resting in a holy hush and the whole church is worshiping quietly and one by one people go to the altar but never make it and fall under the power of an awesome God, with out anyone touching them. Get up later and the peace and joy of the Lord are all over them. They then testify that they were delivered from drugs, porn or received that answer to the problem they were facing.

Then the WOF antics, one minister snapping his fingers, waving his coat, pointing or other no physical contact and 6 rows and 100 people fall out and come back up and all of them are speaking in tongues....then later the WOF minister is preaching on confessing for the blessing and he starts giggling, then the whole place erupts in evil laughter....

I don't know you and you don't me, so don't lecture me on what I am, the experiences I have had or witnessed and the vast amount of "spirit-filled" rodeos with clowns I have watched and asked God to forgive.

My comments are based on what the Word says, not denomination or movement based flesh fests and false teaching or communicated knowledge of denom bylaws state.

Acts show us there was an order when the Holy Ghost came:
power, tongues, word preached so that every man heard in his native languages, 3,000 souls repent, the birth of the church, then the Holy Ghost refilling the power, the word preached, then repentance, then tongues and prophecy on layman, thensigns, wonders and miracles following the word being preached.

I have been flying for awhile....

 

[UnderGrace]

I have been in the typical movement/denomination "spirit filled service" where the music stops on the 3rd song on purpose and there is a quiet pause and someone screams out shondai, Hyundai, french fry, large sized tie and then everyone waits hoping the pastor or someone will interpret the message and a interpretation comes forth to tell us what we already know in the Word and all is well, because it was in order and sister oh so spiritual gave the interpretation as she usually does, because she is the most filled in the room.

shondai, Hyundai, french fry, large sized tie


I cannot stop laughing at this oh dear....

 

[wvbeliever]

Undergrace I am not the smartest person but the Holy Spirit will guide us all in truth not confusion John 16 [SUP]13 [/SUP]Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. And she is not doing that she is causing confusion as Paul says God does not in I Corinthians 14 verse 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. The Holy Spirit gives the gift of tongues but people can lie about speaking in tongues as well it works both ways. Prophets can lie as well read the whole Chapter of I Kings Chapter 13 about the "man of God" a prophet who was to give a message to king Jeroboam which the man of God did but the man of God didn't do everything God told him to do a old prophet lied to him his very own brother the old prophet said a angel told him his message so God killed the "man of God" for listening to the old prophet and not God. It is amazing what God did with the lion, donkey, and that mans body towards the end. Plus all the other miracles God did in that chapter God rebukes and has mercy as well. I would like to hear her message to see if it matches scripture are there any interpreters out there? Undergrace I would like to hear what you think about I Kings Chapter 13 as well pm or public.

 

[UnderGrace]

Well the are people on this discussion board that know the fine points of scripture more than me so do not take that I

am trying to say I have all things figured out, as you will notice I give many likes because so many here teach

and give fresh understanding.

In the church tongues is a language for the unbeliever Paul has said that very clearly.

God does miracles, God heals, God raises people from the dead, God parts the sea, God calms the storm. I agree that God can

magnify himself however He chooses. The Egyptian magicians also performed supernatural tricks before Moses. Our job is to figure out what is of the Holy Spirit and what is not and mostly scripture is our guide.

Tongues is not a hard one to discern in terms of what Paul taught and what we see today.

Undergrace I am not the smartest person but the Holy Spirit will guide us all in truth not confusion John 16 [SUP]13 [/SUP]Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. And she is not doing that she is causing confusion as Paul says God does not in I Corinthians 14 verse 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. The Holy Spirit gives the gift of tongues but people can lie about speaking in tongues as well it works both ways. Prophets can lie as well read the whole Chapter of I Kings Chapter 13 about the "man of God" a prophet who was to give a message to king Jeroboam which the man of God did but the man of God didn't do everything God told him to do a old prophet lied to him his very own brother the old prophet said a angel told him his message so God killed the "man of God" for listening to the old prophet and not God. It is amazing what God did with the lion, donkey, and that mans body towards the end. Plus all the other miracles God did in that chapter God rebukes and has mercy as well. I would like to hear her message to see if it matches scripture are there any interpreters out there? Undergrace I would like to hear what you think about I Kings Chapter 13 as well pm or public.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

you say it is a manifestation that is so spiritual in its content that that even linguistics cannot define it as language.

You misrepresent what I have said.

What I have said is that a scientific study conducted by unbelievers (or believers who do not believe God energizes the manifestation) is going to be inclusive.

The reason is that you cannot measure Spirit with scientific instruments.

Is this what you are referring to? Is this woman praying in tongues according to your experiences, she says she is.

I watched the video. My impression is that, based on comments in this thread alone, she should not have posted the video. The manifestation of the Spirit is designed to profit the body of Christ (1 Cor 12:7). So the woman should have been in a church congregation setting and the manifestation of interpretation of tongues should have been evidenced (1 Cor 14:27). The woman should have spoken silently to herself and to God (1 Cor 14:28).

I did not watch the video the first time you posted it and I am sorry I watched it today.

 

[wvbeliever]

Undergrace Exodus Chapter 7 verses 7-12 that's a good example as well of a true work of God vs. a false enchantment the sorcerers used when Aaron threw down the rod and it God turned to a serpent vs the sorcerers playing tricks. I agree we must spiritual discern miracles as 1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
[SUP]
7 [/SUP]And Moses was fourscore years old, and Aaron fourscore and three years old, when they spake unto Pharaoh.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And the Lord spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
[SUP]9 [/SUP]When Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Shew a miracle for you: then thou shalt say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and cast it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a serpent.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the Lord had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.

I will leave it at that where this thread is on tongues.

 

[kohelet]

Hi Kohelet. Thanks for your reply


Good point, I would agree tongues would be a better word for “another language”. Dialect can mean for instance; being politically correct. It can be like a parable with hidden meanings. A difference like between American English and the Australian dialect, a little work has to be done to interpret some sayings.

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.



I don’t see the idea of performing those things and not understating what he is saying. There is no fruit in doing so. Fruit is made for two.... like for instance Adam and Eve. Fruit would edify the church His bride .The word two represents the church.

It would seem that the spiritual gifts are “two fold”, they would edify the church as two ....where two or three gather together in the authority or name of God he is there working to comfort both as coming from the same faith (Christ) working in both.

I think that two fold principle of edifying the church (2 or three people counting Paul ) can be seen in Romans 1: 9-13

This is where according to Paul’s God given desire to pray for another, the desire as spiritual gift is Paul in its self a gift. And receives an answer he is sent in regard to verse 10 where it says : “if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you”.

The person he is being led to who is also praying, as a spiritual gift. Praying is one spiritual gift that does not seem to get much mention from my experiences.

God’s mutual will is for both, the one that he is sending..... and those who share what he sends with Paul, the will of God.

The words let it be would seem to be the law or they would be speaking into the air. I don't see the idea of self self edification as a option. And the let one interpret is the one receiving the word of God in his own language .Not the one speaking, he knows what he is saying being moved by the Holy Spirit beforehand . And not as with Balaam's donkey where he put His words on the tongue of that creature in order to stop the false prophet .

1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

It would be the beginning of any spiritual gift .This is to include a tongues .... the two fold principle must be applied .The idea of self-edification as an outward sign seems foreign to the gospel. Other than producing a form of pride what would be the person for exulting oneself.?

For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you “some spiritual gift”, to the end ye may be established; Rom 1:11

There he says that the other person might be established and then show where the fruit comes in for the purpose to edify the church (two or more gathering together in the name/ authority of God). Not the authority of Paul or the one who hears the tongue in their own language.. Again to mutually include Paul as part of that spiritual gift in the end giving both the comfort of the Holy Spirit the mutual work of one faith in respect to Christ who is the anointing Holy Spirit of God which the word Christ denotes..

That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.Rom 1:12

He then I believe explained just as he would for tongues (same principle)why he spoke in tongues (God interpreted what he desired Paul say and interpreted it another tongue ). This is why he spoke more than others he was moved to places where the Gentiles where, it was needed to promote the gospel during that time of refomation. .Paul was designated as the apostle to the Gentiles.The message in Roman 1 could of been applied even there in Romans to those of another tongue.

Rom 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles

Singing I would think would always be using sounds that are in respect to certain thoughts .Singing Psalms which is prophecy by revelation, or the blast of the trumpet signaling it was the last day for the inhabitants of Jericho when Joshua blew the trumpet the walls of Jericho fell .

So when Paul says how he both prays and sings using this tongue, it means he understanding what he is saying.

It would seem to work the other way where Paul is given an understanding in response to the gospel he is offering. That is if there is fruit. If no fruit is given the person is left to try an understand what the spirit is saying and cannot ask for clarification. Like, no comprendo (no understanding Spanish) or Nur ein paar Worte auf Deutsch(German ) or me biyn (Greek ) it would be like speaking into the air.

I don’t think Paul would speak what God put on his mind and turn around and walk way without helping further the understanding and call that a mutual work of God, as a spiritual gift .

Hi garee,

Great to hear your view. Now, I say "great", but while it really is good too hear it, I have to tell you my head's spinning a bit. I haven't got a clue what you're talking about. No comprendo indeed! But then I'm not the brightest.

Call me old fashioned, but when I read something like "concerning [a matter], I don't want you to be ignorant" I understand that I can expect to find all I need to know about the subject in what will follow. That's reasonable, right?

So when Paul writes, for example, that the person who speaks in tongues "speaks to God, uttering mysteries in the Spirit" (1 Cor 14:2) and "he builds up himself" (v.4) and when he differentiates between singing and praying with his spirit on the one hand and singing and praying with his understanding on the other (vv.14-16), I take it on face value. It's not all that difficult to understand, even for me. To me, there's no need to contemplate Balaam's ass or find some significance in the number two.

Paul's contrasting the use of tongues and understandable prayer and praise in private with tongues and understandable prayer and praise in church. In church, he says, there must also be interpretation. He also says, "I want you all to speak in tongues" (v.5). It's clear that he means "in private" which will result in the person with the gift being built up (v.4) because he doesn't want this to happen in church, where no one else will be built up, unless interpretation accompanies it (v.5)-(I'm starting to repeat myself). So, as for Jude (Jude 29), for Paul, building ourselves up is what we're supposed to be doing. Self-edification is not the same as "self-exultation" - or do you mean self-exaltation? - either way, they're not the same thing. To exalt doesn't mean to edify. Neither does to exult.

And thats it, really, garee. All the extraneous stuff takes us away from what Paul is saying.

Well that's what I think, anyway.

 

[RickyZ]

shondai, Hyundai, french fry, large sized tie

The interpretation to that is simple... God blesses a well dressed man who eats in his car.

So how easy this tongues thing is?

 

[UnderGrace]

The interpretation to that is simple... God blesses a well dressed man who eats in his car.

So how easy this tongues thing is?

Too funny......second laughing fit.

 

[eph610]

The interpretation to that is simple... God blesses a well dressed man who eats in his car.

So how easy this tongues thing is?

Thanks for the levity....

 

[UnderGrace]

What is not being understood is that healing and language are both something that can be authenticated we are not measuring the prime mover but the result.

I know linguistics and a language is a language is a language. It has nothing to do with the researcher's belief it has to do with the understanding of nuero-linguistics.
Studies have shown even interpreters do not give the same interpretation of the same utterances....go figure?

But let us put that aside and just look at what Paul says in 1 Cor 14.

Paul was trying to set them straight in his letters a lot of what he write is a mild rebuke.

In the Bible “glossa” never means a prayer language for self edification, and it never means unintelligible gibberish. Paul is talking plain and simply about language.

Tongues are not given for the believers edification (1 Cor. 14: 22)

Paul says tongue speaking does not profit the Church (verse 6)

If people are speaking in tongues, and others do not know what they are saying, how does that benefit them (verse 14)
Paul also says that there must be an interpreter (verse 27)

Paul is clearly no proponent of any kind of “speech that is not intelligible” (verse 9)

There is no example in the Scripture where a gift of the Holy Spirit is given for a personal benefit or personal edification. A gift is for the service of the Church or for witness to the world.

Paul knows that this ecstatic speech is not authentic, and by calling for people to speak in turns and to have interpreters, he was actually showing the inauthenticity of tongues.

Hinduism is the religion that believes spirituality bypasses intellect not Christianity, we are sanctified by truth, truth is both a function of the mind and spirit.

Church at Corinth the carnal church with the most problems, the temple prostitutes used ecstatic speech and this was coming into the congregation
Corinth was a busy place with many languages and dialects so there was a need in this new church where there where diverse languages and dialects so there would be the need for gift of tongues (which is languages as in Acts) for the sake of the unbeleivers

It is very simple you know, but if you want to believe unintelligible speech is tongues (a language) there is not much more to be said, except enjoy.

You misrepresent what I have said.

What I have said is that a scientific study conducted by unbelievers (or believers who do not believe God energizes the manifestation) is going to be inclusive.

The reason is that you cannot measure Spirit with scientific instruments.

I watched the video. My impression is that, based on comments in this thread alone, she should not have posted the video. The manifestation of the Spirit is designed to profit the body of Christ (1 Cor 12:7). So the woman should have been in a church congregation setting and the manifestation of interpretation of tongues should have been evidenced (1 Cor 14:27). The woman should have spoken silently to herself and to God (1 Cor 14:28).

I did not watch the video the first time you posted it and I am sorry I watched it today.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Tongues are not given for the believers edification (1 Cor. 14: 22)

Tongues edifies the believer –

1 Corinthians 14:5 greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Paul says tongue speaking does not profit the Church (verse 6)

In the church, if tongues is not accompanied with interpretation of tongues, then only the person speaking in tongues is edified

1 Cor 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself.

If people are speaking in tongues, and others do not know what they are saying, how does that benefit them (verse 14)
Paul also says that there must be an interpreter (verse 27)

In the church, tongues is to be accompanied by interpretation of tongues, and if no interpretor, the believer is to speak silently in tongues to him/herself and to God.

1 Cor 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God

There is no example in the Scripture where a gift of the Holy Spirit is given for a personal benefit or personal edification.

1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself

Paul knows that this ecstatic speech is not authentic, and by calling for people to speak in turns and to have interpreters, he was actually showing the inauthenticity of tongues.

Hinduism is the religion that believes spirituality bypasses intellect not Christianity, we are sanctified by truth, truth is both a function of the mind and spirit.

Wrong. Paul gave proper instruction for the utilization of the genuine manifestation within the church setting. You wanting Paul to have been speaking of Hinduism or "ecstatic speech" which is not "authentic" does not make it so. Paul was speaking of the genuine manifestation and its proper usage within the church.

 

[wattie]

Another topic that I have put in a different thread related to this..

There is a big emphasis on 'baptism of the Holy Spirit'.. what those I know who are charismatic say this is is something along the lines of:

* For an individual
* Part of getting saved or a 2nd experience after salvation confirming salvation
* Always followed by speaking in tongues
* Can happen anywhere

Well-- for the individual.. let's look at that..

Acts 2-- the church at Jerusalem is empowered by the Holy Spirit.. this is a group. No individual alone.

Yes there the individuals in that church had the tongues of flame on them.. but they were gathered.. assembled.. as a New Testament church.

Where do you find individuals alone.. outside of a church setting.. being 'baptised by the Holy Spirit' in the bible?

And to Corinthians-- again.. church setting.. not about individuals alone. Mostly about edifying the assembled church present. Prophecy being the main means.. with tongues being secondary.. and where tongues is used.. to be interpreted to edify that church.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit being part of getting saved..

Well .. Acts chapter 2 this was an already saved group of believers. Jesus and His disciples were the first church in the NT BEFORE Pentecost.

They were empowered as a church in Acts 2. This wasn't about receiving eternal life. Not about getting saved.

Some did get saved through the Word of God being spread after the empowerment of the church at Jerusalem.. but the group of saved, baptised believers initially at Jerusalem.. were saved before being empowered.

Salvation by grace thru faith in Christ was before Pentecost.. and in the Old Testament. The NT didn't bring in a new way of salvation.

Speaking of this too.. do you see any 'baptism of the Holy Spirit' being associated with giving eternal life in the Old Testament?

Yes... God was annointing kings with the Holy Spirit to bless their leadership as king of Israel.. but that isn't 'baptism of the Holy Spirit'.

Always followed by tongues..

I need to look at this part more.. but first impressions is that there were times in Acts.. and probably Galatians also.. where the empowerment of the Holy Spirit for a church had no tongues following in the church members present.


Can happen anywhere..


Every time I see this empowerment in scripture.. it's gathered together believers.. as a New Testament church.

Show me where this happens to a person not gathered in a church setting.

Yes Corinthians has the reference of a person praying privately.. but first impressions.. this is still in the church gathering.

'Where two or three are gathered in my name there I am with them'.....

Do you know the context of that quote?

Matthew 18 chapter is about RESOLVING DISPUTES IN A CHURCH SETTING. This chapter is an update on the process used in Deuteronomy from Israel in the wilderness to the New Testament church setting.

This is not about Jesus being in the midst of any two believers gathered anywhere! What is the context of that quote?

I can see how baptism of the Holy Spirit can 'figuratively' be getting saved. Because it is like the Holy Spirit is figuratively baptising thru delivering us from sin.

But then this wouldn't be consistent with the fact of believers being saved before experiencing the empowerment of the Holy Spirit in the likes of Acts 2 and further in Acts.

 

[RickyZ]

Too funny......second laughing fit.

Thanks for the levity....

Being snarky DOES have it's moments

 

[notuptome]

I hear you, but have you checked my blog post about how diametrically opposed Roger is to scripture? I'm sorry, but when God repeatedly says "A" and Roger repeatedly says "not A", I am left with only one conclusion...

1Jo 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1Jo 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

So tell me again about your little brother and your relationship with him. And what of your father?

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie

God will give you the desires of your heart.

I urge you to stop venting your anger toward me and settle it with God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[UnderGrace]

Tongues edifies the believer –

1 Corinthians 14:5 greater is he that prophesieth than he that speake

Reply With Quoteth with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.




In the church, if tongues is not accompanied with interpretation of tongues, then only the person speaking in tongues is edified

1 Cor 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself.




In the church, tongues is to be accompanied by interpretation of tongues, and if no interpretor, the believer is to speak silently in tongues to him/herself and to God.

1 Cor 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God




1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself




Wrong. Paul gave proper instruction for the utilization of the genuine manifestation within the church setting. You wanting Paul to have been speaking of Hinduism or "ecstatic speech" which is not "authentic" does not make it so. Paul was speaking of the genuine manifestation and its proper usage within the church.

Hinduism was tied to denying the intellect, it seems you are not reading my post.

Yes Paul was giving direction on the true tongues that existed, yes the genuine manifestation that was needed at that time in early church,

He is trying to tell this church to make the differentiation between ecstatic speech, which is no language at all on the face of this earth (which we can now know much better than they could back then) and real languages that were needed.

That is absolutely why he said there needed to be interpretation!!

People back then did not know which languages that were being spoken were real or which were just pagan traditions coming into the church. Context, context, context!!
If your are in church/gathering where everyone speaks the same language there is not need for tongues.

The only place where tongues is needed presently is when the gospel is being presented to someone who does not speak the language it is being presented in, and in that case there would be no need for an interpreter since the person would hear it in their language.

And no need for tongues since most missionaries can learn the language they need.

Paul is giving practical advise and gently rebuking and now it has become, since 1901, anyway, some hyper spiritual manifestation which is so far from what the gift of tongues truly which more about satisfying the emotional needs for the supernatural manifestation.

 

[RickyZ]

1Jo 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1Jo 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

So tell me again about your little brother and your relationship with him. And what of your father?

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie

God will give you the desires of your heart.

I urge you to stop venting your anger toward me and settle it with God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I'm not angry at you Roger. Just very concerned at your constant opposition to scripture and your intent to spread false information based on that. My real intent is to illuminate that so you may see what you are doing. But that requires you to have open eyes and an open mind, and I haven't seen any sign of that occurring.

For example, when God says that with faith the size of a mustard seed you can move mountains. You don't understand how so your response is ' you won't move mountains with your faith'. But your response should be, 'God says it can happen so even tho I don't understand it I still believe it can happen'. Just like edification coming from tongues. God says tongues provide edification. You say that can't be true since you don't understand how. You should instead say 'I don't understand how that works but God says it does so it must be true'.

You think that since you don't understand particular scriptures they must be false. When you can instead say, I don't understand it but scripture says so, so it must be true ... that is when you will begin to understand these things.

 

[BenFTW]

Hinduism was tied to denying the intellect, it seems you are not reading my post.

Yes Paul was giving direction on the true tongues that existed, yes the genuine manifestation that was needed at that time in early church,

He is trying to tell this church to make the differentiation between ecstatic speech, which is no language at all on the face of this earth (which we can now know much better than they could back then) and real languages that were needed.

That is absolutely why he said there needed to be interpretation!!

People back then did not know which languages that were being spoken were real or which were just pagan traditions coming into the church. Context, context, context!!
If your are in church/gathering where everyone speaks the same language there is not need for tongues.

The only place where tongues is needed presently is when the gospel is being presented to someone who does not speak the language it is being presented in, and in that case there would be no need for an interpreter since the person would hear it in their language.

And no need for tongues since most missionaries can learn the language they need.

Paul is giving practical advise and gently rebuking and now it has become, since 1901, anyway, some hyper spiritual manifestation which is so far from what the gift of tongues truly which more about satisfying the emotional needs for the supernatural manifestation.

You comparing the gift of tongues with pagan practices to discredit what fellow believers do by the Spirit of God is like comparing genuine prophecy with palm readers or tarot card readers to discredit the gift of prophecy. Just because there are counterfeits doesn't mean the real activity is false. That reasoning is fallacious.

VVhere in scripture do you see people using the gift of tongues to preach the Gospel to another person in their own language, of which the tongue speaker is ignorant? If you say Pentecost you might want to reread what took place. The people were praising God, speaking to the Father, and then the people came and heard them speaking in their language magnifying God (speaking to the Lord). They were not speaking to the people, or addressing them until Peter clarified what was taking place.

So far all your opposition to the gift of tongues has been shown to not be founded in scripture. Is it tradition? I don't know, but it has been shown to you plainly all throughout 1 Corinthians 14 that the gift of tongues has a private and public use, and that no one understands the person unless there is an interpreter. It has been shown in certain cases that the person can't be speaking in a language of the people present, otherwise it would contradict scripture that says no one understands them. It, also, has been shown that the tongues are not addressing people but are to God, the Father. It even speaks of praising God in the Spirit but no one can "amen" what you are singing because no one is interpreting your worship. You are edified but others are not.

There is so much to say on tongues, but its hard to even get there because your understanding of the gift of tongues is fallacious, in certain respects.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Hi UnderGrace,

I hope/pray this day finds you well and full of God's blessings!

Hinduism was tied to denying the intellect, it seems you are not reading my post.

I read your post. I understood your point.

You do not understand how the manifestation of the Spirit operates. You are basically saying that when the manifestation is energized by the Holy Spirit, that is the same as what the Hindis practice in their chanting.

Yes Paul was giving direction on the true tongues that existed, yes the genuine manifestation that was needed at that time in early church,

Right. And the genuine manifestation is needed in our day and time. But due to improper understanding, misinterpretation of Scripture, and a very successful campaign against the manifestation by the adversary, we do not see proper use in our day and time.

Have you ever thought about why the adversary would attack the operation of the manifestation? Figure that out and maybe you can begin to come to a proper understanding of the manifestation, its use, and its benefit to the body of Christ in our day and time.

He is trying to tell this church to make the differentiation between ecstatic speech, which is no language at all on the face of this earth (which we can now know much better than they could back then) and real languages that were needed.

And which verse supports your assertion that Paul was speaking of "ecstatic speech which is no language at all" as opposed to the genuine manifestation of speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues.

Paul does not address ecstatic speech. He addresses the genuine manifestation.

That is absolutely why he said there needed to be interpretation!!

Nope. There needed to be interpretation in order for the whole body to be edified. Otherwise, the only person who was edified was the tongues-speaker.

Please note, if there is no interpreter, Paul does not say do not speak in tongues at all in the church. What he says is if there is no interpreter, the person is to speak in tongues silently between himself and God (1 Cor 14:28).

People back then did not know which languages that were being spoken were real or which were just pagan traditions coming into the church. Context, context, context!!

If your are in church/gathering where everyone speaks the same language there is not need for tongues.

That is not what Scripture says. If you are in a church/gathering where everyone speaks the same language tongues with interpretation is proper (1 Cor 14:3-5).

The only place where tongues is needed presently is when the gospel is being presented to someone who does not speak the language it is being presented in, and in that case there would be no need for an interpreter since the person would hear it in their language.

And no need for tongues since most missionaries can learn the language they need.

This is not a proper understanding of the use of the manifestation of tongues and interpretation of tongues. According to 1 Cor 14:5, the manifestation of tongues with interpretation of tongues in the church body is so the church may receive edifying.

Paul is giving practical advise and gently rebuking and now it has become, since 1901, anyway, some hyper spiritual manifestation which is so far from what the gift of tongues truly which more about satisfying the emotional needs for the supernatural manifestation.

I agree there is improper use of the manifestation in our day and time. But this does not negate the genuine when it is properly utilized.

 

[eph610]

You comparing the gift of tongues with pagan practices to discredit what fellow believers do by the Spirit of God is like comparing genuine prophecy with palm readers or tarot card readers to discredit the gift of prophecy. Just because there are counterfeits doesn't mean the real activity is false. That reasoning is fallacious.

VVhere in scripture do you see people using the gift of tongues to preach the Gospel to another person in their own language, of which the tongue speaker is ignorant? If you say Pentecost you might want to reread what took place. The people were praising God, speaking to the Father, and then the people came and heard them speaking in their language magnifying God (speaking to the Lord). They were not speaking to the people, or addressing them until Peter clarified what was taking place.

So far all your opposition to the gift of tongues has been shown to not be founded in scripture. Is it tradition? I don't know, but it has been shown to you plainly all throughout 1 Corinthians 14 that the gift of tongues has a private and public use, and that no one understands the person unless there is an interpreter. It has been shown in certain cases that the person can't be speaking in a language of the people present, otherwise it would contradict scripture that says no one understands them. It, also, has been shown that the tongues are not addressing people but are to God, the Father. It even speaks of praising God in the Spirit but no one can "amen" what you are singing because no one is interpreting your worship. You are edified but others are not.

There is so much to say on tongues, but its hard to even get there because your understanding of the gift of tongues is fallacious, in certain respects.

Was Peter preaching and clarifying to everyone from every country, or Just the Jews?