predestination vs freewill

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D

DP

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So why would God have one group of elect He called and chose, and then another group that are called only? For like Jesus said, many are called, but few are chosen.

I think one reason is because He is not going to allow His Word to go forth without bearing fruit. Because He gave us The Gospel through His Son, He is not going to allow anything to prevent His Plan of Salvation. And for that reason He gave us a leadership on earth that cannot be deceived, i.e., His prophets, Apostles, and disciples, those He chose and sent into this world.
 
V

valiant

Senior Member
#62
Mar 22, 2015
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#62
DP said:
So why would God have one group of elect He called and chose, and then another group that are called only? For like Jesus said, many are called, but few are chosen.

I think one reason is because He is not going to allow His Word to go forth without bearing fruit. Because He gave us The Gospel through His Son, He is not going to allow anything to prevent His Plan of Salvation. And for that reason He gave us a leadership on earth that cannot be deceived, i.e., His prophets, Apostles, and disciples, those He chose and sent into this world.
Click to expand...
ALL true Christians are chosen (Eph 1.4). The point is that He has called many who have turned away because they are dead in sin so that only those 'chosen' have responded (John 5.39; and often)

whom He chose them He justified, and whom He justified them He glorified. God never does things by half measures,
 
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M

MikeHenderson

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#63
Feb 26, 2015
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#63
God knew even before He created anything, who would accept Him. Because He knew who would accept Him, He then Predestined them to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

We do have the free will to reject God. Its our choice to make and God does not make it for us.

So yes we are Predestined and have free will all at the same time.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#64
Jan 13, 2016
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valiant said:
ALL true Christians are chosen (Eph 1.4). The point is that He has called many who have turned away because they are dead in sin so that only those 'chosen' have responded (John 5.39; and often)

whom He chose them He justified, and whom He justified them He glorified. God never does things by half measures,
Click to expand...
All Christians are chosen for the adoption which is the redemption. They were not chosen to be in him anytime before. Not one person was chosen to be saved. Not one in the Bible.
 
D

DP

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Sep 27, 2015
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I have to disagree that we all are 'chosen' sent ones.

I agree we all are 'called', but not all are 'chosen' sent ones like the patriarchs, prophets, and Apostles.
 
Stephen63

Stephen63

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I..... am..... really..... disappointed. Really. There's one scripture that's core to our salvation that hasn't been used, though everyone is supposed to know it.

John 3:14-21 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: [SUP]15 [/SUP]That
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (FREE CHOICE)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that (LOVES WITH NO RESPECTER OF PERSONS)

whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (The right choice, acceptance & commitment to Christ is guaranteed eternal life)

[SUP]17[/SUP]For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; (no person is condemned without choice)

but that the world through him might be saved. (everyone can be, but not everyone chooses to accept Christ, or to remain in Him)

[SUP]18 [/SUP]He that believeth on him is not condemned: (CHOICE)

but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (CHOICE)

[SUP]19 [/SUP]And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. [SUP]21 [/SUP]But he that doeth truth cometh to the light,

that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (Those who choose Christ have the God-given ability to live for Him.)
Ephesians 2:10 (KJV) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Mark 8:35 (KJV)
[SUP]35 [/SUP]For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
[HR][/HR]Acts 2:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
[HR][/HR]Romans 9:33 (KJV)
[SUP]33 [/SUP]As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
[HR][/HR]Romans 10:11 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For the scripture saith, whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
[HR][/HR]Romans 10:13 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
[HR][/HR]1 John 4:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
[HR][/HR]Revelation 22:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
There's the CHOICE & empowerment scriptures.

Here's the predestination scripture:
1 Peter 1:18-21 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; [SUP]19 [/SUP]But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: [SUP]20 [/SUP]Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, [SUP]21 [/SUP]Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Matthew 25:34 (KJV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[HR][/HR]Ephesians 1:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
[HR][/HR]Hebrews 4:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

God's "predestined" plan was to prepare a kingdom in advance for the redeemed ones & send Jesus to the cross to save all men that would repent of their sins & accept Him as Savior & Lord for their salvation.(FREEWILL) Those He "foreknew"..... Well, God "foreknew" everybody! Those He foreknew would accept Jesus would be blessed with the ability to walk by faith & perform His will.
 
I

Ivon

Member
#67
Aug 30, 2016
66
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6
#67
Stephen63 said:
I..... am..... really..... disappointed. Really. There's one scripture that's core to our salvation that hasn't been used, though everyone is supposed to know it.

John 3:14-21 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: [SUP]15 [/SUP]That
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (FREE CHOICE)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that (LOVES WITH NO RESPECTER OF PERSONS)

whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (The right choice, acceptance & commitment to Christ is guaranteed eternal life)

[SUP]17[/SUP]For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; (no person is condemned without choice)

but that the world through him might be saved. (everyone can be, but not everyone chooses to accept Christ, or to remain in Him)

[SUP]18 [/SUP]He that believeth on him is not condemned: (CHOICE)

but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (CHOICE)

[SUP]19 [/SUP]And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. [SUP]21 [/SUP]But he that doeth truth cometh to the light,

that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (Those who choose Christ have the God-given ability to live for Him.)
Ephesians 2:10 (KJV) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Mark 8:35 (KJV)
[SUP]35 [/SUP]For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
[HR][/HR]Acts 2:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
[HR][/HR]Romans 9:33 (KJV)
[SUP]33 [/SUP]As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
[HR][/HR]Romans 10:11 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For the scripture saith, whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
[HR][/HR]Romans 10:13 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
[HR][/HR]1 John 4:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
[HR][/HR]Revelation 22:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
There's the CHOICE & empowerment scriptures.

Here's the predestination scripture:
1 Peter 1:18-21 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; [SUP]19 [/SUP]But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: [SUP]20 [/SUP]Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, [SUP]21 [/SUP]Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Matthew 25:34 (KJV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[HR][/HR]Ephesians 1:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
[HR][/HR]Hebrews 4:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

God's "predestined" plan was to prepare a kingdom in advance for the redeemed ones & send Jesus to the cross to save all men that would repent of their sins & accept Him as Savior & Lord for their salvation.(FREEWILL) Those He "foreknew"..... Well, God "foreknew" everybody! Those He foreknew would accept Jesus would be blessed with the ability to walk by faith & perform His will.
Click to expand...
@Stephen, thanks for surfacing so many verses with your emphasis on whosoever, its clear now. Probably all the confusion stem from our perceived definition of the word 'predestination', in which we assumed that God has set hell as the destination for some people. So I suppose in accordance to the scripture, it means by default people will go hell for those who decides not to follow Christ (freewill) & because God foreknew the freewill choices we will make, He already knows those who will follow Christ & thus His blessings will be 'unlocked' to these followers (which God refers to predestination in bible context) am i right?
 
I

Ivon

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#68
Aug 30, 2016
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#68
But I have a qus Stephen, I understand that God lives outside time, therefore He foreknows everything, including people who will reject Christ eventually. Then there is no purpose of God further intervening in these peoples life isn't it since the conclusion (which God knows) is that these people will still ULTIMATELY rejects Christ...

(I have serious difficulty grasping this part)
 
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D

DP

Banned
#69
Sep 27, 2015
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#69
Stephen63 said:
I..... am..... really..... disappointed. Really. There's one scripture that's core to our salvation that hasn't been used, though everyone is supposed to know it.
....
Click to expand...
And all... of that is very true.

It's just that you cannot reverse what our Lord Jesus said...

Matt 20:12-16
12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
KJV

Now try to open up your mind and be sharp; what's the subject analogy Jesus gave in that parable of the laborers of the field? It's about the laborers in His Work, in His Salvation. All of them are in that.

The first group of workers worked all... day.

The last group only worked "one hour" and got the same pay as the others.

So when Jesus said, "for many be called, but few chosen", which ones in the parable are the 'called' ones, and which ones are the 'chosen' ones?

What does that final "one hour" represent? How was it different for those last workers that worked only one hour to make them "chosen"? Who do they represent in the last days?
 
I

Ivon

Member
#70
Aug 30, 2016
66
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#70
DP said:
And all... of that is very true.

It's just that you cannot reverse what our Lord Jesus said...

Matt 20:12-16
12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
KJV

Now try to open up your mind and be sharp; what's the subject analogy Jesus gave in that parable of the laborers of the field? It's about the laborers in His Work, in His Salvation. All of them are in that.

The first group of workers worked all... day.

The last group only worked "one hour" and got the same pay as the others.

So when Jesus said, "for many be called, but few chosen", which ones in the parable are the 'called' ones, and which ones are the 'chosen' ones?

What does that final "one hour" represent? How was it different for those last workers that worked only one hour to make them "chosen"? Who do they represent in the last days?
Click to expand...
I think God's economy is somewhat opposite of humans where we tend to measure rewards based on effort.

I believe the takeaway of that analogy is that God wants us to know that human effort/obedience is not the key factor for determining our reward but rather it is solely based on His grace whenever He deems necessary to bestow us with certain rewards.

Hence, whether or not this analogy is symbolic, its an emphasis of His grace, His discretion. All we need is to have faith (like the labourers who knew wages will be given to them after work) and not pondering too much behind the economy of God.
 
D

DP

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Sep 27, 2015
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Ivon said:
I think God's economy is somewhat opposite of humans where we tend to measure rewards based on effort.

I believe the takeaway of that analogy is that God wants us to know that human effort/obedience is not the key factor for determining our reward but rather it is solely based on His grace whenever He deems necessary to bestow us with certain rewards.

Hence, whether or not this analogy is symbolic, its an emphasis of His grace, His discretion. All we need is to have faith (like the labourers who knew wages will be given to them after work) and not pondering too much behind the economy of God.
Click to expand...
I fail see how what you're saying is relevant to the parable of the laborers of the field that Jesus gave.

With what He said, that many are called but few chosen, I see simply a structure of leadership among the sheep. I can understand how so many today fail to see that because of how they've been taught by today's Leftist-Socialism to rebel against the idea of authority.
 
I

Ivon

Member
#72
Aug 30, 2016
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#72
DP said:
I fail see how what you're saying is relevant to the parable of the laborers of the field that Jesus gave.

With what He said, that many are called but few chosen, I see simply a structure of leadership among the sheep. I can understand how so many today fail to see that because of how they've been taught by today's Leftist-Socialism to rebel against the idea of authority.
Click to expand...
@DP, it is relevant in the sense that God wants us to know that His goodness to us is not based on our deeds anymore (after Jesus died on the cross), & since we are all fallen short before him, we can never earn His blessings.

He will show mercy to whom he wants to have mercy & give compassion to whom He wants to give compassion. And this is why "the last will be first, and the first last", which is a reflection of no matter how hard or much a believer works in his life time, the eternal gift of live will be the same given to all.

I don't see any rebel against authority or the denial of any leadership here.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#73
#73
Ivon said:
There is a tension in my mind in attempt to grasp these. If there is freewill, it means your actions determine your outcome. If there is predestination, it means no matter what you do, you cant alter the outcome. But both above are mentioned in bible, which contradicts one another. Someone pls enlighten me thanks.
Click to expand...
This article explains free will and predestined clearly.
Six Practical Reasons ‘Free Will’ Matters | Desiring God
 
p_rehbein

p_rehbein

Senior Member
#74
Sep 4, 2013
30,693
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113
#74
free will
Free will
Free Will
FREE WILL

did I mention FREE WILL?
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#76
#76
Stephen63 said:
I..... am..... really..... disappointed. Really. There's one scripture that's core to our salvation that hasn't been used, though everyone is supposed to know it.

John 3:14-21 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: [SUP]15 [/SUP]That
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (FREE CHOICE)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that (LOVES WITH NO RESPECTER OF PERSONS)

whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (The right choice, acceptance & commitment to Christ is guaranteed eternal life)

[SUP]17[/SUP]For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; (no person is condemned without choice)

but that the world through him might be saved. (everyone can be, but not everyone chooses to accept Christ, or to remain in Him)

[SUP]18 [/SUP]He that believeth on him is not condemned: (CHOICE)

but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (CHOICE)

[SUP]19 [/SUP]And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. [SUP]21 [/SUP]But he that doeth truth cometh to the light,

that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (Those who choose Christ have the God-given ability to live for Him.)
Ephesians 2:10 (KJV) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Mark 8:35 (KJV)
[SUP]35 [/SUP]For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
[HR][/HR]Acts 2:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
[HR][/HR]Romans 9:33 (KJV)
[SUP]33 [/SUP]As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
[HR][/HR]Romans 10:11 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For the scripture saith, whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
[HR][/HR]Romans 10:13 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
[HR][/HR]1 John 4:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
[HR][/HR]Revelation 22:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
There's the CHOICE & empowerment scriptures.

Here's the predestination scripture:
1 Peter 1:18-21 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; [SUP]19 [/SUP]But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: [SUP]20 [/SUP]Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, [SUP]21 [/SUP]Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Matthew 25:34 (KJV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[HR][/HR]Ephesians 1:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
[HR][/HR]Hebrews 4:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

God's "predestined" plan was to prepare a kingdom in advance for the redeemed ones & send Jesus to the cross to save all men that would repent of their sins & accept Him as Savior & Lord for their salvation.(FREEWILL) Those He "foreknew"..... Well, God "foreknew" everybody! Those He foreknew would accept Jesus would be blessed with the ability to walk by faith & perform His will.
Click to expand...
This is my disagreement.


If any part of salvation has to do with my will, choice, proper etiquette, strength, ability, etc. it is NOT God saving me, but me saving me.
 
V

valiant

Senior Member
#77
Mar 22, 2015
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#77
p_rehbein said:
free will
Free will
Free Will
FREE WILL

did I mention FREE WILL?
Click to expand...
go on believing in it if you wish. but it is not Scriptural. and you cannot find it there. Only the chosen believed. e.g. rom 9
 
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p_rehbein

p_rehbein

Senior Member
#78
Sep 4, 2013
30,693
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#78
I don't have any problem finding it in Scripture........it is the blind that can not find it, but, then, they were predestined to not see the Truth in Scripture I suppose........

:)
 
V

valiant

Senior Member
#79
Mar 22, 2015
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#79
p_rehbein said:
I don't have any problem finding it in Scripture........it is the blind that can not find it, but, then, they were predestined to not see the Truth in Scripture I suppose........

:)
Click to expand...
words are easy PROVE it from Scripture,.
 
R

RBA238

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#80
Good Read!
 
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