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lol
M
Well the sllence is defeaning when you secretly agree with them.......but lack the courage to say so.......that's why there's been no condemnation.
I think it comes down to the same political divisions as always that cause some people to be hateful toward the elected leaders, politics amplifies emotions and passionate christians are often way over the line by the time they stop and think about what they've been saying.
It was always going to be that way with President Obama, he stirred up so much passion among his supporters that the passion was equal in his detractors.
Those that supported him seemed to be in a state of delirium in the election night coverage I saw, and the fawning was quite sad to see, and now some time on people see the reality isn't close to matching the expectations and so the detractors are more and more venemous in their attacks, just as the other side was towards the end of President Bush's second term.
Saying things like that as a christian is the clearest proof you need that it is just a word to them and not a life choice, just ignore people like that, along with most politicians of any leaning.
I think it comes down to the same political divisions as always that cause some people to be hateful toward the elected leaders, politics amplifies emotions and passionate christians are often way over the line by the time they stop and think about what they've been saying.
It was always going to be that way with President Obama, he stirred up so much passion among his supporters that the passion was equal in his detractors.
Those that supported him seemed to be in a state of delirium in the election night coverage I saw, and the fawning was quite sad to see, and now some time on people see the reality isn't close to matching the expectations and so the detractors are more and more venemous in their attacks, just as the other side was towards the end of President Bush's second term.
Saying things like that as a christian is the clearest proof you need that it is just a word to them and not a life choice, just ignore people like that, along with most politicians of any leaning.
I cannot speak to those that openly show hate for Obama, but to do so is not we as christians are called to do.
Much of what is disliked is the approach, causes and legislation that is being forced apon this nation. The media supports this and as a result much of what is seen on tv or publisized is not acurate.
His support polls show him as low as 18% , and at best 28%. Depending on who has done the poll.
What most of the debate is about is to much goverment, and the loss of personal responcabuility.
Many do support a medical program, but the one perposed is not acceptable. I know first hand what it like to be homeless and what it takes to overcome that situation. We also had no ins, this was several yrs ago, but at that time private contributions were comonplace and helped us to pay most if not all of our bills. Reciently I was helping another that was in a simular situation, when I called to find out about what help was available the sources were severely limited. Not because of the lack of support but because our goverment has made these contributions so difficult to do that many have just looked for other places to donate. Essentually making all dependent on the goverment by force. Most of the donations now go out of the country now because it is easyer to give out of the US than in.
The most frustrating part is the this goverment believes that they know better than the public about what is good for us.
To have this mentality in leadership that has liitle if mostly questionable faith in God does not leave alot of confidence in their choices.
There is alot in the small print that will lead to a social breakdown in time. When people no longer are motivated to care for themselves you soon have a society of failier. In certain states in this country where a socialist based goverment has been in practice, these states have developed the highest poverty levals and lowest buisness developement of any other state.
Any ways, the issue is not wanting to provide for those in real need, it is providing for those that choose to need, and a goverment that is willing to
buy their vote.
This has never been a case of big money wanting more, or wanting to deny help where it is truelly needed. This is a case of indivigual right to strive for what is good and true.
Any person with common sence knows that if you give some one to much without their earning it, knows it leads to that indiviguals personal destrution.
Finnally, from the point of one that loves Our Lord Jesus, the mentallity of this goverment is to deny the rights of the faithfull. One can see the subtle moves that diirection every day. That will always be a right that we must stand in faith for.
Saddly, on tv last night a sudent won the right to have his photo kept in the school yearbook that said, G-d is dead. But at that same school if a student were to wear a shirt saying God is Alive! That sudent would be required to remove the shirt or leave the school, possibly being santioned for their choice.
The hate that some show is wrong, but little is shown of the many good people that stand with dignity and grace against this administration.
Media has worked to show a demented right wing religious crazed group. When the true voice is muted.
All need to be sure of what they are learning these days, truth is hard to find.
Thank goodness, we have Our Lord Jesus!
God bless, pickles
Much of what is disliked is the approach, causes and legislation that is being forced apon this nation. The media supports this and as a result much of what is seen on tv or publisized is not acurate.
His support polls show him as low as 18% , and at best 28%. Depending on who has done the poll.
What most of the debate is about is to much goverment, and the loss of personal responcabuility.
Many do support a medical program, but the one perposed is not acceptable. I know first hand what it like to be homeless and what it takes to overcome that situation. We also had no ins, this was several yrs ago, but at that time private contributions were comonplace and helped us to pay most if not all of our bills. Reciently I was helping another that was in a simular situation, when I called to find out about what help was available the sources were severely limited. Not because of the lack of support but because our goverment has made these contributions so difficult to do that many have just looked for other places to donate. Essentually making all dependent on the goverment by force. Most of the donations now go out of the country now because it is easyer to give out of the US than in.
The most frustrating part is the this goverment believes that they know better than the public about what is good for us.
To have this mentality in leadership that has liitle if mostly questionable faith in God does not leave alot of confidence in their choices.
There is alot in the small print that will lead to a social breakdown in time. When people no longer are motivated to care for themselves you soon have a society of failier. In certain states in this country where a socialist based goverment has been in practice, these states have developed the highest poverty levals and lowest buisness developement of any other state.
Any ways, the issue is not wanting to provide for those in real need, it is providing for those that choose to need, and a goverment that is willing to
buy their vote.
This has never been a case of big money wanting more, or wanting to deny help where it is truelly needed. This is a case of indivigual right to strive for what is good and true.
Any person with common sence knows that if you give some one to much without their earning it, knows it leads to that indiviguals personal destrution.
Finnally, from the point of one that loves Our Lord Jesus, the mentallity of this goverment is to deny the rights of the faithfull. One can see the subtle moves that diirection every day. That will always be a right that we must stand in faith for.
Saddly, on tv last night a sudent won the right to have his photo kept in the school yearbook that said, G-d is dead. But at that same school if a student were to wear a shirt saying God is Alive! That sudent would be required to remove the shirt or leave the school, possibly being santioned for their choice.
The hate that some show is wrong, but little is shown of the many good people that stand with dignity and grace against this administration.
Media has worked to show a demented right wing religious crazed group. When the true voice is muted.
All need to be sure of what they are learning these days, truth is hard to find.
Thank goodness, we have Our Lord Jesus!
God bless, pickles
Big AMEN to that!! The only way that a welfare state can exist is for fiat money to be created out of nothing. Because these walfare recipients are not producing anything, yet are spending money to consume goods and services, more money becomes available (created by printing presses) for the same amount of goods, always resulting in inflation. Inflation is a hidden tax, which robs hard working Americans of the fruit of their labors, and is thus an infringement on their freedom. Inflation is the most insidious of taxes, because it takes money from those who are most vulnerable, i.e. those on fixed incomes. It also penalizes those who save because when they eventually spend that money, it will be worth less.
There is a reason why history has been devalued in our schools. And what history is available is filtered to present a positive view of our government and culture, while neglecting the negative. Throughout history, everytime that a government has diluted the backing of it's currency, it has brought ruin on that government and culture. It began in the Roman empire. It is interesting that in 301 A.D. Diocletian, in a speech blamed the rich and wealthy and their greed for a failing economy, when it was his government's dilution of the backing of the money that was the cause. Sound familiar?
In our history, in the 1780's, the government went to a system of unbacked fiat money to finance the Revolutionary War. The result was 300% inflation, riots, and other civil unrest which almost brought the country to an early end. George Washington, and other leaders realized the problem, went back to a system of money backed by gold and silver, and the economy rebounded and become the strongest in the world. Over the generations, that lesson was forgotten. Now we have not only money that is worthless in backing, but fractionalized banking, which creates unlimited money for our government to provide welfare programs in order to buy votes. But is it really unlimited? When we are hit with 200% to 400% inflation, and our senior's pensions are wiped out, and the civil unrest begins, we will find out the consequences of government manipulation of our economy.
Note: Fiat money is money that is not backed by any commodity, but is forced on the citizens of a country when it is declared legal tender for payment of debts.
There is a reason why history has been devalued in our schools. And what history is available is filtered to present a positive view of our government and culture, while neglecting the negative. Throughout history, everytime that a government has diluted the backing of it's currency, it has brought ruin on that government and culture. It began in the Roman empire. It is interesting that in 301 A.D. Diocletian, in a speech blamed the rich and wealthy and their greed for a failing economy, when it was his government's dilution of the backing of the money that was the cause. Sound familiar?
In our history, in the 1780's, the government went to a system of unbacked fiat money to finance the Revolutionary War. The result was 300% inflation, riots, and other civil unrest which almost brought the country to an early end. George Washington, and other leaders realized the problem, went back to a system of money backed by gold and silver, and the economy rebounded and become the strongest in the world. Over the generations, that lesson was forgotten. Now we have not only money that is worthless in backing, but fractionalized banking, which creates unlimited money for our government to provide welfare programs in order to buy votes. But is it really unlimited? When we are hit with 200% to 400% inflation, and our senior's pensions are wiped out, and the civil unrest begins, we will find out the consequences of government manipulation of our economy.
Note: Fiat money is money that is not backed by any commodity, but is forced on the citizens of a country when it is declared legal tender for payment of debts.
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It was our greed that was the cause of the meltdown around the world. we wanted more and more and more and the banks where only to happy to lend it. so who's to blame..
It is very easy to blame the Governments, its very easy to blame the banks.. but the blame initialy falls flatly at our feet.
Do you honestly think, helping those in need, giving them free health care even if you are paying for it is so wrong?
Do you think that making sure every child has atleast one square meal a day (free school meals) if you are paying for it is so wrong?
Making sure pensioners have enough atleast to feed themselves and warm their homes.. even if you pay for it..is that wrong.
you may class them as spungers or a drain on finances, but i would say, feed the people, give them health care, make sure every child has at least one good meal day.
And of course I bet I pay just as much as you or less in tax. as I said before the UK is not a shining example. but I like the idea behind social welfare where the poor aren't classed as a drain, or worthless spungers, yes you will get those who abuse the welfare system but that will always happen.
Compassion guys not money..compassion. I would gladly pay more tax to help the needs of our poor, even if it left me with less..
anyhow we all have our different views, whether political or just palin old bias towards those in need, or monetary.
in Love
Phil
The Bible does not necessarily say we ought not to go against government. If that was the case the USA would never have become a free country in the first place. All of this freedom that we earned was because Protestants were willing to pick up guns and defend themselves from Papal tyranny.
The Brits were the first who were allowed to carry guns, and the reason was to keep the Pope out of the UK. That thanks to a Protestant King William of Orange.
I do believe that God allows men to fight for and defend freedom. Think of the civil war also, where the Vatican promised to assist the South if they attacked the North. The Battle Hymn of the Republic was written during that time, and what a blessed song that was.
I will never condemn a Christian who picks up a gun to defend his family and the freedoms of his country, so long as his heart is right. I don't think I would do it personally, but I haven't been pushed far enough yet either.
Also, I mentioned the Clergy Response Teams. They exist to tell people to obey a corrupt government without question. This is not correct. We don't obey a corrupt government if they cross God.
Quest
The Brits were the first who were allowed to carry guns, and the reason was to keep the Pope out of the UK. That thanks to a Protestant King William of Orange.
I do believe that God allows men to fight for and defend freedom. Think of the civil war also, where the Vatican promised to assist the South if they attacked the North. The Battle Hymn of the Republic was written during that time, and what a blessed song that was.
I will never condemn a Christian who picks up a gun to defend his family and the freedoms of his country, so long as his heart is right. I don't think I would do it personally, but I haven't been pushed far enough yet either.
Also, I mentioned the Clergy Response Teams. They exist to tell people to obey a corrupt government without question. This is not correct. We don't obey a corrupt government if they cross God.
Quest
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M
Well it's an old clash of views and we'll all be better off when a government realises that both views are valid and need to be implimented in different ways.
Of course Phil you are right, I think the UK has one of the better systems in the developed world because ultimately a system that has flaws but covers everyone in a limited fashion is better than a system that has flaws but fails to cover millions of citizens.
But the UK system, and any welfare system is primed for abuse and that abuse is seriously damaging to the hard working individuals who through a complex system of tax and welfare laws are essentially punished for the laziness of others who are happy to live off the state.
A welfare system can be a very good thing if it is regulated with very strict rules and the people running it were prepared to kick people to the curb and say take care of yourself if they can but are choosing not too, the problem in the UK is the system encourages abuse for how poor security is.
But the idea of having no welfare in place and saying everyone is out for themselves is just as damaging, and that's more the problem in other countries where if you work hard but just can't manage for whatever reason and come up short, there's no help anywhere to be found and you can't even get basic healthcare.....well shame on society for that but both systems exclusively used ultimately fail.
Of course Phil you are right, I think the UK has one of the better systems in the developed world because ultimately a system that has flaws but covers everyone in a limited fashion is better than a system that has flaws but fails to cover millions of citizens.
But the UK system, and any welfare system is primed for abuse and that abuse is seriously damaging to the hard working individuals who through a complex system of tax and welfare laws are essentially punished for the laziness of others who are happy to live off the state.
A welfare system can be a very good thing if it is regulated with very strict rules and the people running it were prepared to kick people to the curb and say take care of yourself if they can but are choosing not too, the problem in the UK is the system encourages abuse for how poor security is.
But the idea of having no welfare in place and saying everyone is out for themselves is just as damaging, and that's more the problem in other countries where if you work hard but just can't manage for whatever reason and come up short, there's no help anywhere to be found and you can't even get basic healthcare.....well shame on society for that but both systems exclusively used ultimately fail.
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Much of what you say is absolutely true. And contrary to what the popular media says about conservatives, they are not heartless. Noone wants to see people in poverty and need. But what you, and others don't see, because they reason with their emotions, is that the government is the cause of much of the poverty that you see. It is government regulations, excessive taxation, and spending of money that would otherwise be available to private businesses, as well as programs that have had a direct influence on supply and demand, that have resulted in the high unemployment that you see today. In our country, more than a trillion dollars have been spent in the last 25 years on poverty, and there are more people impoverished now than then. Why? Because our welfare system encourages immorality, resulting in more than half of children being born into one parent families. And the taxes needed to pay for that results in women in two parent families being forced to work, instead of having the opportunity to raise their children.
1 Tim 5: 3 Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need. 4 But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God. 5 The widow who is really in need and left all alone puts her hope in God and continues night and day to pray and to ask God for help. 6 But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives.
What would Paul say about women who continue to have children, two, three, four, and more, and expect others to care for them? Or would you say that Paul is biased against the poor?
1 Tim 5: 3 Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need. 4 But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God. 5 The widow who is really in need and left all alone puts her hope in God and continues night and day to pray and to ask God for help. 6 But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives.
What would Paul say about women who continue to have children, two, three, four, and more, and expect others to care for them? Or would you say that Paul is biased against the poor?
B
In Australia we have a similar system. We look after our disadvantaged and poor. For that I am so wonderfully thankful. We have a fantastic health system and welfare system. Of course there are people out there who abuse the system, but overall it seems to work. I am proud of my country and government that we look after our society like that, and I have no problem with my taxes going on it to pay for it, because for so many years I was looked after by the govt when I needed it. Cheers.
E
Concerning much of what is going on with the health system in america currently i would like to add that in times past when we have entrusted our government with tax funds we see it being squandered and misused. It is no wander that so many are opposed to it. I wrote several letters and signed many petitions against the healthcare law, not because i don't think people should have medical care, i just wanted to have them go at this thing clearly and get it right.
I personally think that the money that is going to go into this could have been better served in taking care of our people that are homeless, and living in the streets. It's in the billions.
After all of the debates and disagreements on this i keep one thing near and dear to my heart and soul, and i have to sometimes remind myself of this fact because i sometimes get caught up in the moment and forget. God is still in control of everything and if it were not his will it would not come to be. As a christian i have submitted myself to god and regardless of how bad i think something is going to be and how much worse something can get i have to keep the facts straight. God is the one moving this world the way he wants it and i have placed my trust in him.
I personally think that the money that is going to go into this could have been better served in taking care of our people that are homeless, and living in the streets. It's in the billions.
After all of the debates and disagreements on this i keep one thing near and dear to my heart and soul, and i have to sometimes remind myself of this fact because i sometimes get caught up in the moment and forget. God is still in control of everything and if it were not his will it would not come to be. As a christian i have submitted myself to god and regardless of how bad i think something is going to be and how much worse something can get i have to keep the facts straight. God is the one moving this world the way he wants it and i have placed my trust in him.
M
Well thanks everyone for your opinions, Definatley not a soft issue is it? Possible aim maybe to start a new thread on end of times prophecies?
Having spent about 16 years as a health care worker I loved the people I worked for but not the people I had to work with. One thing I truly believe is that if not for medicare and/or medicaid and SOCIAL SECURITY, might I have been out of a job if these people had to rely on private insurance?
I am not against an individual recieving just due's, but I do question a persons ability to lead when: if they cannot support a family on $500k-1M, but need 15-25-35 M to get by, then you have a problem. The premiums I pay go towards a persons yacht, private jet, spaceports! But then again, some who are up in the teens million dollar mark do extraordinary kind and charitable financial contributions.
So the only thing I am going to focus on now is this; when Jesus healed he healed the rich, the poor, or the injured, did he say to them, 'my brother, you must get a job first, then buy some insurance, then and only then can I heal you'.
Matt
Having spent about 16 years as a health care worker I loved the people I worked for but not the people I had to work with. One thing I truly believe is that if not for medicare and/or medicaid and SOCIAL SECURITY, might I have been out of a job if these people had to rely on private insurance?
I am not against an individual recieving just due's, but I do question a persons ability to lead when: if they cannot support a family on $500k-1M, but need 15-25-35 M to get by, then you have a problem. The premiums I pay go towards a persons yacht, private jet, spaceports! But then again, some who are up in the teens million dollar mark do extraordinary kind and charitable financial contributions.
So the only thing I am going to focus on now is this; when Jesus healed he healed the rich, the poor, or the injured, did he say to them, 'my brother, you must get a job first, then buy some insurance, then and only then can I heal you'.
Matt