JP teaches "self righteousness" and instant "perfectionism"

[Jackson123]

Yup, I don't believe we are perfect as soon as accept Jesus. But Holy spirit will guide us toward that direction. It not instant process. It take our life time.

We will change, for example, Killer, robber change and not kill anymore, and find a job, not rob anymore, but for some reason, he or she may back to rob when the situation not support them. Then the Holy spirit convict them, and they fill sorry and regret what they do.

This is ther different between christian and non christian. Christian make mistake but there is Holy spirit convict them, non christian make mistake and no Holy spirit convict them.

The end of the day, christian become better and better. Not perfect but progress

 

[voiceinthewild]

Any time a person thinks they have all the answers about the faith, I immediately think they're religious.

Let me ask the person who started this thread a question. If you're not perfect when you accept Christ, when are you perfect? At what point in your new Christian faith are you saved, redeemed, and ready to stand before the Almighty?

What do you have to do to add to what Christ has already done in order to be saved?

 

[Angela53510]

Any time a person thinks they have all the answers about the faith, I immediately think they're religious.

Let me ask the person who started this thread a question. If you're not perfect when you accept Christ, when are you perfect? At what point in your new Christian faith are you saved, redeemed, and ready to stand before the Almighty?

What do you have to do to add to what Christ has already done in order to be saved?

As I said earlier, with supporting Scriptures, we will be perfect when we see Christ "face to face" 1 Cor. 13:12, or when we see him as he is" 1 John 3:2.

We are justified positionally when God saves us. (Romans 5:1) But if we were made "perfect" in the sense that Jesus is perfect, then, what would be the point of God making us hang around here? Oh right, to be witnesses of the gospel! Yet we can do that without being perfect!

In fact, God wants us to "be transformed." See Romans 12:2, 2 Cor. 3:18. Being transformed is the process God uses to change us. We are saved when God saves us. But that does not make us perfect! It means we are on this amazing journey with Christ, and the Holy Spirit leads and guides us. And part of that journey is learning obedience, just as Jesus himself learned obedience! See Hebrews 5:8!

Regardless of claims to the contrary in this forum (I am accusing no one) I find it odd so many people protesting the need to obey God, and turn away from sin! Oops, that comes back to strangely warped definitions of biblical words like repentance and sin, which Joseph Prince, the subject of this thread has foisted on to his hapless followers!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What I said was right inline with the words of God, read em and weep...

1 John 5:18

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

There you go he teaches sinless perfection. But ask him if he does, and he will deny it.. smh...

 

[Grace777x70]

As I said earlier, with supporting Scriptures, we will be perfect when we see Christ "face to face" 1 Cor. 13:12, or when we see him as he is" 1 John 3:2.

We are justified positionally when God saves us. (Romans 5:1) But if we were made "perfect" in the sense that Jesus is perfect, then, what would be the point of God making us hang around here? Oh right, to be witnesses of the gospel! Yet we can do that without being perfect!

In fact, God wants us to "be transformed." See Romans 12:2, 2 Cor. 3:18. Being transformed is the process God uses to change us. We are saved when God saves us. But that does not make us perfect! It means we are on this amazing journey with Christ, and the Holy Spirit leads and guides us. And part of that journey is learning obedience, just as Jesus himself learned obedience! See Hebrews 5:8!

Regardless of claims to the contrary in this forum (I am accusing no one) I find it odd so many people protesting the need to obey God, and turn away from sin! Oops, that comes back to strangely warped definitions of biblical words like repentance and sin, which Joseph Prince, the subject of this thread has foisted on to his hapless followers!

I must have missed this - but who says "not to obey God, and turn away from sin"? No one here says to continue sinning that I am aware of especially not Joseph Prince despite the many attempts by some mis-guided people to malign him and others that believe in the message of the grace of Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am sorry you feel this way about me specifically. But even more, it appalls me the amount of trashing people that goes on in this forum.

It appalls me also. To trash a man who is not even here to defend himself. To falsly accuse people of believing things they do not. It appals me that you defend the people who do the MOST trashing in this chatroom. These people do not want to discuss the word of God. they open thread after thread of trash talk, anti JP or whoever it is they have on their radar.. It gets old. I think these types of threads are the worst threads especially when they are based on here say, Taking other people out of context. Or as I have seen a few times, From quoted sources which are Apposed to the one being slandered to begin with.. 2 people in this room are the worse at doing this, Yet for some reason you seem to be supporting them, and slandering others in the process..

which can Further, I don't see a word of actually addresssing the Scriptures I posted. Instead, you resort to calling names, against people that do not agree with the views of your "friends" on this forum.

Why should I respond to them, I AGREE WITH THEM, AS DOES GRACE777 and others.

You just made my point for me, I started my post asking why you would post a post such as you did, When everyone believes what you post (the actual bible part)

Please do not start to be like others and not at least try to understand what others are saying.

If you want to debate Scripture, I will be here, but until that point, I will not be replying to you anymore.

lol. Ok, now you have done it.. You did not read a thing I posted. Debate scripture? What is there to debate WE AGREE ON THE SCRIPTURE YOU POSTED.. Did you even read a thing I posted? Are you to busy trying to defend yourself you can not read the context of what was written? What happened to you?

At least Grace777 posts Bible verses, even if they are out of context, bad translations and his Greek is misleading to the point of being wrong. But I do give him kudos for trying to keep the conversation about the Bible, not about bashing people

.

Oh? Can you show us some of the scripture he posted out of context. I would love to talk about this.. And whille we are at it, I would love to discuss the legalism of the people you are defending. Would you like to discuss that> or are you playing the my enemy of my enemy is my friend card? Because my whole gripe against you in this context is you are defending and enabling legalistic people trying to earn salvation. in order to discredit a man who is not even here to defend himself. Is this what christians are supposed to be doing?

In my post, I addressed the things that were correct in the OP, and the things that were incorrect in the posts of certain members, particularly the Greek. Which is my speciality, because I realized that theology is a great interest for me, which is why I have such a passion for Greek. Because if you post "are sanctified," versus "are being sanctified" it means something totally different. Please feel free to chime in on these kinds of theological debates, instead of just throwing out the usual nasty rhetoric.

The OP was so far off base, He is out to attack, He is not out to discuss the word of God. You should know this, He has being doing it for ages now.

My origional question still stands, Why are you attacking people who woud believe sanctification the same way you do. And in the process, defend legalists who would NOT agree santification is a process. which will not be completed until we see Jesus.. And preach sinless perfection, then deny they teach it, I do not get it..

When you study real theology you begin to take a stand against heresy. No one has posted a single verse which supported sancification being accomplished through "right thinking." Now there is a works oriented gospel if there ever was one. We have to "think"ourselves into being perfect? Yet, I have read many threads here lately, some of them actual devotionals by Joseph Prince, which say exactly this.

ISIT is very clear, that God is the one who justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies. And that sanctification is progressive. We are not perfect when we are saved. God has much work to do on us. Plus, I don't see anywhere he is judging anyone in particular, except the false prophet Joseph Prince. If JP wants to continue to write and preach unscriptural and theologically untenable beliefs, he has put himself into the public eye, and if he is wrong, then it is the duty of believers everywhere to point out not only where he is wrong, but to warn against this false prophet. This. regardless of some of the "feel-good" posts we have been treated to recently in this forum. Yep, I read 'em, but I don't have to like them![/QUOTE]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I must have missed this - but who says "not to obey God, and turn away from sin"? No one here says to continue sinning that I am aware of especially not Joseph Prince despite the many attempts by some mis-guided people to malign him and others that believe in the message of the grace of Christ.

It is the slander which has been going on for months which has to stop. That is why I confronted Angela. She is listening to the slander, And not trying to see what people are really saying.. Thats why these threads need to stop. People need to stop responding in them.. All they are are vicious attacks on people who can not defend themself.Based on lies and false accusations.

 

[Grace777x70]

I am sorry you feel this way about me specifically. But even more, it appalls me the amount of trashing people that goes on in this forum. Further, I don't see a word of actually addresssing the Scriptures I posted. Instead, you resort to calling names, against people that do not agree with the views of your "friends" on this forum. If you want to debate Scripture, I will be here, but until that point, I will not be replying to you anymore. At least Grace777 posts Bible verses, even if they are out of context, bad translations and his Greek is misleading to the point of being wrong. But I do give him kudos for trying to keep the conversation about the Bible, not about bashing people.

In my post, I addressed the things that were correct in the OP, and the things that were incorrect in the posts of certain members, particularly the Greek. Which is my speciality, because I realized that theology is a great interest for me, which is why I have such a passion for Greek. Because if you post "are sanctified," versus "are being sanctified" it means something totally different. Please feel free to chime in on these kinds of theological debates, instead of just throwing out the usual nasty rhetoric.

When you study real theology you begin to take a stand against heresy. No one has posted a single verse which supported sancification being accomplished through "right thinking." Now there is a works oriented gospel if there ever was one. We have to "think"ourselves into being perfect? Yet, I have read many threads here lately, some of them actual devotionals by Joseph Prince, which say exactly this.

ISIT is very clear, that God is the one who justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies. And that sanctification is progressive. We are not perfect when we are saved. God has much work to do on us. Plus, I don't see anywhere he is judging anyone in particular, except the false prophet Joseph Prince. If JP wants to continue to write and preach unscriptural and theologically untenable beliefs, he has put himself into the public eye, and if he is wrong, then it is the duty of believers everywhere to point out not only where he is wrong, but to warn against this false prophet. This. regardless of some of the "feel-good" posts we have been treated to recently in this forum. Yep, I read 'em, but I don't have to like them!

You have not proven that I have had bad translations of the scripture. I post from the NASB. I realize it may "conflict" with your religious beliefs but that's the way things like this happen to all of us.

I too could post lengths of actual Greek scriptures in my posts but I know that 99.99 % of the people ( including yourself - if you didn't look it up ) don't know the language nor do they need to know it. It is the Holy Spirit that illuminates the truths of the scriptures to us and reveals the work of Christ in our lives - we don't get that by reading Greek nor from man's opinion written in a Greek book about what his particular thoughts are on a text as he is just giving "his own interpretation" of what he thinks it means - all this is based on his religious teachings too.

There are Greek scholars that do believe in the gifts of the Spirit are for today and there are some that do not - so just because one is a Greek scholar is actually meaningless in the interpretation and "application" of a scripture. That is the Holy Spirit's job.

People could be absolutely fluent in Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic and not have a spiritual clue to what this means in the light of what Christ has done for us at the cross, burial, resurrection and ascension to the right hand of the Father - and the fact that the Christian is there with Christ.

I have also taken Greek too but as I have said before the Lord does not want me to be bogged down with being able to read it from it's original state. I am happy for you that you are taking on-line courses in Greek and I hope you are well enough to continue doing so if that is the Lord's plan for you.

We need the revelation of Christ from the Holy Spirit in order to understand the scriptures - we could study the scriptures for 60 years including the original languages and still miss what is really being said by the Spirit of God to us that are in Christ now.

The truth behind the fact that we are new creations in Christ created in righteousness and holiness is of paramount importance if we are to walk in the true Christian life that is in us that believe.

Sometimes truth "conflicts" with our religious traditions and it upsets us - I know...I have been there and still am in many areas that I need to have my mind renewed to. We think we are "defending the faith" but in reality we are just "defending our religious traditions".

Anyway, I trust that you are feeling better and that you be strengthened by the Spirit of God in your endeavoring to walk in Christ.

 

[Grace777x70]

It is the slander which has been going on for months which has to stop. That is why I confronted Angela. She is listening to the slander, And not trying to see what people are really saying.. Thats why these threads need to stop. People need to stop responding in them.. All they are are vicious attacks on people who can not defend themself.Based on lies and false accusations.

I think we just need to leave our beliefs out there with scriptures too and trust the Lord to work them out and as you say - just not respond to them further. We know the real purpose that some in CC have in "baiting" people and it just ends up defiling all of us.

People are allowed to agree to disagree too without belittling them or calling them names.

One poster says that " he is used to taking care of the pigs and dogs" because he is from the country.

He was talking about those that believed differently then he does in some scriptures . This is the kind of mentality we are dealing with here unfortunately.

We need to be careful to watch out for this truth from Hebrews.

Hebrews 12:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

That is funny because there are so many here that are against your own personal religion.

Matthew 12:30
He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Joseph Prince's teachings aren't his own.
They are derived from others teachings as well. How about we identify the root of the error first, then the house of cards can fall

That root would go way back to the Father of lies. There are many who may look like a Lamb, but if you listen closely they truly speak as a Dragon.

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

2 Corinthians 11:14

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

 

[Grace777x70]

That root would go way back to the Father of lies. There are many who may look like a Lamb, but if you listen closely they truly speak as a Dragon.

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

2 Corinthians 11:14

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Paul did warn us about satan being an angel of light. and he also warned us about "satan's minister of righteousness".

Satan and his horde do not come to the believer in Christ and say "Sin all you want" because no one would for fall for such a lie.

Instead they come as "ministers of righteousness".

They want us to live by our own D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness so that we will be not be depending on what Christ has done for us by grace through faith alone for salvation.

This cuts us off from receiving the grace of God in our lives.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

[SUP]15 [/SUP] Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

( notice that is "their" works )

This below is what satan is really after...this is why he has false teachers in our midst. He wants us to fall away from grace and depend on our own performance.

1 Peter 1:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[FreeNChrist]

As I said earlier, with supporting Scriptures, we will be perfect when we see Christ "face to face" 1 Cor. 13:12, or when we see him as he is" 1 John 3:2.

We are justified positionally when God saves us. (Romans 5:1) But if we were made "perfect" in the sense that Jesus is perfect, then, what would be the point of God making us hang around here? Oh right, to be witnesses of the gospel! Yet we can do that without being perfect!

In fact, God wants us to "be transformed." See Romans 12:2, 2 Cor. 3:18. Being transformed is the process God uses to change us. We are saved when God saves us. But that does not make us perfect! It means we are on this amazing journey with Christ, and the Holy Spirit leads and guides us. And part of that journey is learning obedience, just as Jesus himself learned obedience! See Hebrews 5:8!

Regardless of claims to the contrary in this forum (I am accusing no one) I find it odd so many people protesting the need to obey God, and turn away from sin! Oops, that comes back to strangely warped definitions of biblical words like repentance and sin, which Joseph Prince, the subject of this thread has foisted on to his hapless followers!

"For by one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.” Heb.10:14

Not only has Jesus made us perfect, He has made us perfect FOREVER. Now that is good news indeed. It doesn’t say He made us perfect because we act perfect. It says He made us perfect “by HIS one sacrifice”. It's because of what He did for us.

A little green apple is perfect in nature, it is complete in itself, it just isn’t yet mature. As Christians we have been made complete in Christ. We are forgiven, redeemed, made spiritually alive, and we stand in the perfect righteousness of Christ, totally loved and accepted. Now we are being made holy. We are all “under construction”.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Let me ask the person who started this thread a question. If you're not perfect when you accept Christ, when are you perfect? At what point in your new Christian faith are you saved, redeemed, and ready to stand before the Almighty?

Let me first make this point in addressing Joseph Princes error in the OP. He claims when you first believe then at that minute you are "perfect."

A mouth confession that one "believes" is not a proof of a "born again" Christian. Many can confess they believe, but yet at the same time in their hearts they are truly far from doing God's will in sincerity and in truth. So a true Christ follower, or Christian will be "born again" of God's Holy Spirit, and then the purification process will begin, with them being given a new heart and mind. They will then, by the power of God be able to resist temptation and cease from sin. And God's Living Word will begin to teach them, and guide them, and will begin to purify their hearts transforming them into the image of God's Son inwardly.

This is a process, like natural child birth. When you are first born naturally you don't just pop out as a fully mature adult do you? No, you start out as new born babe in Christ being nourished on the milk of the word, and then you begin to grow and mature as you are then fed with that Living manna and nourished by the Spirit of Truth till Christ be formed in you. If you endure temptation, and remain faithful in Christ, you will bring forth fruit unto perfection by abiding and remaining in Christ.

So what does perfection look like to Jesus? Luke 6:40 "The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master."

When you become like Jesus inwardly, He is also reflected outwardly in our words and works, then you will finally be perfected in your ways. Clearly this perfection does not happen in the very minute you say you believe as Mr. Prince claims.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"For by one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.” Heb.10:14

Not only has Jesus made us perfect, He has made us perfect FOREVER. Now that is good news indeed. It doesn’t say He made us perfect because we act perfect. It says He made us perfect “by HIS one sacrifice”. It's because of what He did for us.

A little green apple is perfect in nature, it is complete in itself, it just isn’t yet mature. As Christians we have been made complete in Christ. We are forgiven, redeemed, made spiritually alive, and we stand in the perfect righteousness of Christ, totally loved and accepted. Now we are being made holy. We are all “under construction”.

I venture to say most people would read your post. And ignore or over read the last part.

Amen, We are under construction. Our sanctification is ongoing, But as the author of hebrews says, It is still Gods work in us ("whome he is sanctifying") not our work..

About the only power we have, as free will beings, Is to resist God.. But this has consequences.. No matter what we are resisting in

Either way though, we have no power to sanctify ourselves. only to allow God to complete the work in us,, which scripture says, he will even do this, thus we can, and should be confident of that very thing.


Philippians 1:6
being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;


It does not say he might, it says he will.. yet people want to spread doubt, make it all on us. This is from the devil himself.

 

[LaurenTM]

I think positional standing in Christ is being mistaken for 'instant perfection'

as it is, NEITHER one states we become perfect in ourselves...it is ONLY IN Christ...as already pointed out

such a meandering, mixed up idea presented as someone twisting the gospel, when in fact the op does not understand the gospel

and on it goes

 

[FreeNChrist]

I venture to say most people would read your post. And ignore or over read the last part.

Amen, We are under construction. Our sanctification is ongoing, But as the author of hebrews says, It is still Gods work in us ("whome he is sanctifying") not our work..

About the only power we have, as free will beings, Is to resist God.. But this has consequences.. No matter what we are resisting in

Either way though, we have no power to sanctify ourselves. only to allow God to complete the work in us,, which scripture says, he will even do this, thus we can, and should be confident of that very thing.


Philippians 1:6
being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;


It does not say he might, it says he will.. yet people want to spread doubt, make it all on us. This is from the devil himself.

Right, sanctification is the justified life. And it’s all the work of Christ. Justification is objective, Christ’s work for us. Sanctification is subjective, Christ’s work within us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Let me first make this point in addressing Joseph Princes error in the OP. He claims when you first believe then at that minute you are "perfect."

John 3: [SUP]15 [/SUP]that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[SUP][b][/SUP] have eternal life. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. [SUP]18 [/SUP]“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Seems Jesus would disagree with you..

The moment one trusts God, they are perfect. As hebrews said , he has perfected forever, those who are being sanctified.

Saying one is perfect does not mean they are sinless, It means they are complete. (that is why they are still said to be in the process of being sanctified)

Those who trust God are complete in him, that is why they are not condemned, Those who reject him, and his gospel are condemned, because they are not complete.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Paul did warn us about satan being an angel of light. and he also warned us about "satan's minister of righteousness".

Satan and his horde do not come to the believer in Christ and say "Sin all you want" because no one would for fall for such a lie.

Instead they come as "ministers of righteousness".

They want us to live by our own D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness so that we will be not be depending on what Christ has done for us by grace through faith alone for salvation.

This cuts us off from receiving the grace of God in our lives.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 (KJV)
[SUP]14[/SUP] And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

[SUP]15[/SUP] Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

( notice that is "their" works )

This below is what satan is really after...this is why he has false teachers in our midst. He wants us to fall away from grace and depend on our own performance.

1 Peter 1:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

If one is truly "under God's grace" "sin shall not have dominion over you." This is what I preach, but this is not what Joseph Prince preaches. So who is preaching the true grace message that is in line with every word of God?

 

[MikeHenderson]

We become Perfect when we become Justified by Jesus. We become Justified when we receive Jesus as our Lord and Savior!