Joel Osteen's Night Of Hope 2016 // Street Preachers Rebuke American Gospel
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K
Wow you really are all talk huh?
1. You're not here to please me.If so I'd have shut you down already.
2. Since we all have an age that is truthful,or with in a year or two I think its only fair to expect the same of you. Or are you special?
3. Im not going to waste my time going to a mod.They can read it here for themselves and do what they see fit. But if someone has an issue they have every right to take it to a mod. Even if you think otherwise.
4. Did you ask a mod? An age was changed last week, check it out.
5. No body cares whether what you are sharing is right or wrong. Thats not the point. If you are not a teen your age shouldn't say it is. Has zero to do with whether you know the Bible or not.
6. You want me to be comfortable? Good stop slapping people up side the head and act like an adult. Have a conversation instead of acting like a jerk to everyone you speak to. Do you speak anything other than sarcasm? Even if you were 15 I'd tell you to grow up.
7. I could change your screen name...but you wont like it,trust me.
8. The age isn't irrelevant. Ask a mod to help change it. As I said,someone did last week.
9. Run along?! Seriously,grow up.
A
Cotton Candy Christianity: Joel Osteen’s Gospel of Neutrality and Omission
by David Fiorazo September 7, 2013 at 9:44am
The following is an excerpt from a chapter, Counterfeit Christianity, in the book ERADICATE: BLOTTING OUT GOD IN AMERICA.
Author, televangelist, and senior pastor of Lakewood Church in Houston, Texas Joel Osteen seems like a very likeable and well-meaning Christian man. His ministry reaches about seven million people every week in countries around the world through radio and television. Prior to October 3, 1999, Osteen produced the church’s television program for seventeen years. With no biblical education or experience, Joel Osteen succeeded his father. Prior to his father’s death, Joel had only preached once in his entire life and had no theological training.
Today, he is one of the most popular, well-known Christian leaders in America. Barbara Walters named Osteen one of the year’s “Ten Most Fascinating People,” and his popularity earned him some attention at ABC News as one of the “10 Most Fascinating People of 2006.” His church rakes in approximately $70 million every year.
Televi­sion news anchor Chris Wallace interviewed Joel Osteen on Fox News Channel and began the segment by saying Osteen “offers a message about personal growth and positive thinking, which may explain why he’s now pastor of America’s largest congregation.” Wallace asked him what Osteen thought it was about his message that people want to hear. Osteen replied:
I don’t know if I know exactly, but I think the fact that it’s positive, it’s hopeful, and I talk about everyday life…. And, too, I think, Chris, there’s a lot of negative things trying to pull people down, and I think people respond when you tell them that, hey, there are good things up ahead.
What Osteen just described sounds like a motivational pep talk. Apparently, others notice how seldom Osteen dis­cusses what the Bible teaches on issues such as abortion, homosexuality, pornography, marriage, and other religions. Chris Wallace also asked why Osteen doesn’t get involved in politics or talk much about “abor­tion and gays and the social issues.” Joel Osteen explained:
Well, it started back with my father. He never did. And I just don’t feel comfortable as well. I don’t feel like that’s my main gifting. And I feel like when I stay focused on encouraging people, and giving them hope, and helping them live their everyday life, I think that’s where I can have the most impact.
He’s in good company. Non-views have become the evangelical norm, and Osteen takes the neutral route. Critics say Osteen preaches a word-faith prosperity gospel lite, which I like to call ‘Cotton Candy Christianity’. He can be overly positive and at times out of touch with human suffering. One popular quote by Joel Osteen is, “When you focus on being a blessing, God makes sure that you are always blessed in abundance.” So all we need to do is focus on being good and doing good? Tell someone who is confined to a bed with an incurable disease, or someone who lost their home, job, or lost a loved one that they’ll always be blessed in abundance.
In a 2011 interview with the Washington Times, Osteen told editors that he saw faith in America at an all-time high. He said that yes, people are struggling, but “our message is so much about hope.” He naturally evaded most political questions saying, “I don’t really take sides,” as it divides the people, adding that he prefers to “stay in my own lane.”
Many of us would like to hear Joel Osteen dig into the Bible and give a bold presentation of the gospel of Christ without apology. When Mitt Romney ran for president of the United States, Osteen received a few questions from people about Romney’s religion. From the Wash­ington Times interview:
“I believe that [Mormons] are Christians,” Mr. Osteen said. “I don’t know if it’s the purest form of Christianity, like I grew up with. But you know what, I know Mormons. I hear Mitt Rom­ney – and I’ve never met him – but I hear him say, ‘I believe Jesus is the son of God,’ ‘I believe he’s my savior,’ and that’s one of the core issues.
“I’m sure there are other issues that we don’t agree on. But you know, I can say that the Baptists and the Methodists and the Catholics don’t all agree on everything. So that would be my take.”
Even though denominations may not agree on a few nonessential doctrines, they all base their faith on Christ and the Bible, not the Book of Mormon. Osteen has stated on several other occasions that Mitt Romney, a Mor­mon, “believes in his savior just like I do.” What does that even mean?
Joseph Smith founded Mormonism and Latter Day Saints (LDS) less than 200 years ago. Mormonism teaches God was once a man who progressed to Godhood, there is no Trinity, Jesus was not born of a vir­gin, and he is not eternal. We can safely say this is another gospel which is cautioned against in the New Testament. Smith also taught all other religions are of the devil and according to Mormon teachings, Joseph Smith “received visitations from Moroni, an angel of light.”
Mormon leaders have also taught that Jesus’ incarnation was the result of a physical relationship between God the Father and Mary. They believe Jesus is a god (small “g”), but humans can also become gods and salvation can be earned by a combination of faith and good works. Osteen must be careful because God will scrutinize his state­ments as leaders have the power and responsibility to influence many lives. In Joel’s case, it’s millions of lives.
Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment. (James 3:1) Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you. (1 Timothy 4:16)
Did you ever wonder why there is so much opposition or resistance to Christians? The God of all creation is our help and strength. We pray to a living God while the bones of the gods (or founders) of other religions can be found at their tomb or burial site. We have a Savior who overcame death and the grave leaving an empty tomb that shouts to the world that Jesus is alive.
During interviews on his book promotion tours, Joel Osteen often gives similar responses about being positive, changing your life, devel­oping better habits, not being stuck in the past, doing the best you can, and [claiming] abundance. Osteen claims Jesus wanted us to live a “great life.” What about orphans? Street kids? Prison inmates? What about the handicapped, shut-ins, dis­abled Veterans, or the persecuted church? How [exactly] is a great life defined?
Jesus said that in this life we can expect trouble, but to take heart because He has overcome this temporary world. (John 16:33). Jesus also talked about His kingdom in heaven and never mentioned visualizing a nicer house, car, boat, or financial blessing. Christ came to give us life, to destroy the devil’s work, to preach the good news to the afflicted and brokenhearted (Is. 61:1). He set us free from the law of sin and death (Romans 8:2).
Osteen says that talking about sin isn’t his main calling and that he’s “trying to make God more relevant” in our society. Let’s look at how Joel Osteen responded to a few more direct questions from Chris Wal­lace about Mormonism, from the 2007 interview on Fox News Sunday With Christ Wallace:
WALLACE: “Is a Mormon a true Christian?”
OSTEEN: “Well, in my mind they are. Mitt Romney has said that he believes in Christ as his Savior, and that’s what I believe, so, you know, I’m not the one to judge the little details of it. So I believe they are. And so, you know, Mitt Romney seems like a man of character and integrity to me….”
WALLACE: “So, for instance, when people start talking about Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, and the golden tablets in upstate New York, and God assumes the shape of a man, do you not get hung up in those theological issues?”
OSTEEN: “I probably don’t get hung up in them because I haven’t really studied them or thought about them. And you know, I just try to let God be the judge of that. I mean, I don’t know. I certainly can’t say that I agree with everything that I’ve heard about it, but from what I’ve heard from Mitt, when he says that Christ is his savior, to me that’s a common bond.” (Emphasis mine)
So let’s clarify here: Pastor Joel Osteen feels it is not his calling to get deeply into the Bible or to talk about sin. He also prefers not to think too much about other religions, but he believes Mormons are Christians. He focuses on the positive and promotes a word-faith the­ology that the more you do or say something, the more you will get as a result. I know this teaching well because I followed it for several years in my early Christian days. It is both addictive and deceptive. Who doesn’t want to be happy and “up” all the time? Most of us realize that not only is this unbiblical; it is not realistic.
The tragic thing is hoards of people are being influenced by Osteen’s limited theology, and they end up looking at God as some kind of genie.
On page 306 of Your Best Life Now, Joel claims, “It’s our faith that activates the power of God.” When the emphasis is on the power of our own words instead of the power of the resurrec­tion, something’s wrong. He goes so far as to say it’s more important to speak to your problem than pray about it (pg. 124).
The following quotes are from Your Best Life Now by Pastor Joel Osteen:
“The first step to living at your full potential is to enlarge your vision. To live your best life now, you must start looking at life through eyes of faith, seeing yourself rising to new levels. See your business taking off. See your marriage restored. See your family prospering. See your dreams coming to pass. You must conceive it and believe it is possible if you ever hope to experi­ence it” (p. 4, emphasis his).
“You will produce what you’re continually seeing in your mind…. If you develop an image of victory, success, health, abundance, joy, peace, and happiness, nothing on earth will be able to hold those things from you … God wants to increase you financially, by giving you promotions, fresh ideas and cre­ativity” (p. 5).
“God wants you to live an overcoming life of victory. He doesn’t want you to barely get by. He’s called El Shaddai, ‘the God of more than enough’” (p. 33).
“You will often receive preferential treatment simply because your Father is the King of kings, and His glory and honor spill over onto you” (p. 40).
“Our words have tremendous power, and whether we want to or not, we will give life to what we’re saying, either good or bad…. Words are similar to seeds, by speaking them aloud, they are planted in our subconscious minds, and they take on a life of their own…. Get up each morning and look in the mirror and say, ‘I am valuable. I am loved. God has a great plan for my life. I have favor wherever I go. God’s blessings are chasing me down and overtaking me. Everything I touch prospers and succeeds!’ (p. 122-123)
“It’s going to happen…. Suddenly, your situation will change for the better … He will bring your dreams to pass” (pp. 196-198).
There’s nothing wrong with trying to be positive, but where is this found in the Bible?
Maybe you’re a fan of Joel Osteen. You may have read his books and have watched him on TV and are having a tough time accepting this. I strongly encourage you to pray about everything he or anyone teaches. If you sincerely seek God’s truth, He will reveal it to you. Osteen pres­ents a kind of self-help program under the guise of Bible instruction. There’s nothing wrong with optimism, but pastors [and teachers] need to stick with the Word of God.
People who follow Osteen’s happy formula and then fail to get the positive results he promises end up disillusioned and worse, get mad at God and fall away from him. Don’t you think Christians are responsible for telling people what they need to hear instead of what they want to hear? You won’t get that from Mr. Happy. Smooth talk. Positive vibes. Prosperity and abundance. Flattering speech. Deceptive doctrine with a smile…. Cotton Candy Christianity.
Follow @fiorazo https://twitter.com/fiorazo
Photo credit: faithchurchstlouis (Creative Commons)
Cotton Candy Christianity: Joel Osteen's Gospel of Neutrality and Omission
by David Fiorazo September 7, 2013 at 9:44am
The following is an excerpt from a chapter, Counterfeit Christianity, in the book ERADICATE: BLOTTING OUT GOD IN AMERICA.
Author, televangelist, and senior pastor of Lakewood Church in Houston, Texas Joel Osteen seems like a very likeable and well-meaning Christian man. His ministry reaches about seven million people every week in countries around the world through radio and television. Prior to October 3, 1999, Osteen produced the church’s television program for seventeen years. With no biblical education or experience, Joel Osteen succeeded his father. Prior to his father’s death, Joel had only preached once in his entire life and had no theological training.
Today, he is one of the most popular, well-known Christian leaders in America. Barbara Walters named Osteen one of the year’s “Ten Most Fascinating People,” and his popularity earned him some attention at ABC News as one of the “10 Most Fascinating People of 2006.” His church rakes in approximately $70 million every year.
Televi­sion news anchor Chris Wallace interviewed Joel Osteen on Fox News Channel and began the segment by saying Osteen “offers a message about personal growth and positive thinking, which may explain why he’s now pastor of America’s largest congregation.” Wallace asked him what Osteen thought it was about his message that people want to hear. Osteen replied:
I don’t know if I know exactly, but I think the fact that it’s positive, it’s hopeful, and I talk about everyday life…. And, too, I think, Chris, there’s a lot of negative things trying to pull people down, and I think people respond when you tell them that, hey, there are good things up ahead.
What Osteen just described sounds like a motivational pep talk. Apparently, others notice how seldom Osteen dis­cusses what the Bible teaches on issues such as abortion, homosexuality, pornography, marriage, and other religions. Chris Wallace also asked why Osteen doesn’t get involved in politics or talk much about “abor­tion and gays and the social issues.” Joel Osteen explained:
Well, it started back with my father. He never did. And I just don’t feel comfortable as well. I don’t feel like that’s my main gifting. And I feel like when I stay focused on encouraging people, and giving them hope, and helping them live their everyday life, I think that’s where I can have the most impact.
He’s in good company. Non-views have become the evangelical norm, and Osteen takes the neutral route. Critics say Osteen preaches a word-faith prosperity gospel lite, which I like to call ‘Cotton Candy Christianity’. He can be overly positive and at times out of touch with human suffering. One popular quote by Joel Osteen is, “When you focus on being a blessing, God makes sure that you are always blessed in abundance.” So all we need to do is focus on being good and doing good? Tell someone who is confined to a bed with an incurable disease, or someone who lost their home, job, or lost a loved one that they’ll always be blessed in abundance.
In a 2011 interview with the Washington Times, Osteen told editors that he saw faith in America at an all-time high. He said that yes, people are struggling, but “our message is so much about hope.” He naturally evaded most political questions saying, “I don’t really take sides,” as it divides the people, adding that he prefers to “stay in my own lane.”
Many of us would like to hear Joel Osteen dig into the Bible and give a bold presentation of the gospel of Christ without apology. When Mitt Romney ran for president of the United States, Osteen received a few questions from people about Romney’s religion. From the Wash­ington Times interview:
“I believe that [Mormons] are Christians,” Mr. Osteen said. “I don’t know if it’s the purest form of Christianity, like I grew up with. But you know what, I know Mormons. I hear Mitt Rom­ney – and I’ve never met him – but I hear him say, ‘I believe Jesus is the son of God,’ ‘I believe he’s my savior,’ and that’s one of the core issues.
“I’m sure there are other issues that we don’t agree on. But you know, I can say that the Baptists and the Methodists and the Catholics don’t all agree on everything. So that would be my take.”
Even though denominations may not agree on a few nonessential doctrines, they all base their faith on Christ and the Bible, not the Book of Mormon. Osteen has stated on several other occasions that Mitt Romney, a Mor­mon, “believes in his savior just like I do.” What does that even mean?
Joseph Smith founded Mormonism and Latter Day Saints (LDS) less than 200 years ago. Mormonism teaches God was once a man who progressed to Godhood, there is no Trinity, Jesus was not born of a vir­gin, and he is not eternal. We can safely say this is another gospel which is cautioned against in the New Testament. Smith also taught all other religions are of the devil and according to Mormon teachings, Joseph Smith “received visitations from Moroni, an angel of light.”
Mormon leaders have also taught that Jesus’ incarnation was the result of a physical relationship between God the Father and Mary. They believe Jesus is a god (small “g”), but humans can also become gods and salvation can be earned by a combination of faith and good works. Osteen must be careful because God will scrutinize his state­ments as leaders have the power and responsibility to influence many lives. In Joel’s case, it’s millions of lives.
Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment. (James 3:1) Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you. (1 Timothy 4:16)
Did you ever wonder why there is so much opposition or resistance to Christians? The God of all creation is our help and strength. We pray to a living God while the bones of the gods (or founders) of other religions can be found at their tomb or burial site. We have a Savior who overcame death and the grave leaving an empty tomb that shouts to the world that Jesus is alive.
During interviews on his book promotion tours, Joel Osteen often gives similar responses about being positive, changing your life, devel­oping better habits, not being stuck in the past, doing the best you can, and [claiming] abundance. Osteen claims Jesus wanted us to live a “great life.” What about orphans? Street kids? Prison inmates? What about the handicapped, shut-ins, dis­abled Veterans, or the persecuted church? How [exactly] is a great life defined?
Jesus said that in this life we can expect trouble, but to take heart because He has overcome this temporary world. (John 16:33). Jesus also talked about His kingdom in heaven and never mentioned visualizing a nicer house, car, boat, or financial blessing. Christ came to give us life, to destroy the devil’s work, to preach the good news to the afflicted and brokenhearted (Is. 61:1). He set us free from the law of sin and death (Romans 8:2).
Osteen says that talking about sin isn’t his main calling and that he’s “trying to make God more relevant” in our society. Let’s look at how Joel Osteen responded to a few more direct questions from Chris Wal­lace about Mormonism, from the 2007 interview on Fox News Sunday With Christ Wallace:
WALLACE: “Is a Mormon a true Christian?”
OSTEEN: “Well, in my mind they are. Mitt Romney has said that he believes in Christ as his Savior, and that’s what I believe, so, you know, I’m not the one to judge the little details of it. So I believe they are. And so, you know, Mitt Romney seems like a man of character and integrity to me….”
WALLACE: “So, for instance, when people start talking about Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, and the golden tablets in upstate New York, and God assumes the shape of a man, do you not get hung up in those theological issues?”
OSTEEN: “I probably don’t get hung up in them because I haven’t really studied them or thought about them. And you know, I just try to let God be the judge of that. I mean, I don’t know. I certainly can’t say that I agree with everything that I’ve heard about it, but from what I’ve heard from Mitt, when he says that Christ is his savior, to me that’s a common bond.” (Emphasis mine)
So let’s clarify here: Pastor Joel Osteen feels it is not his calling to get deeply into the Bible or to talk about sin. He also prefers not to think too much about other religions, but he believes Mormons are Christians. He focuses on the positive and promotes a word-faith the­ology that the more you do or say something, the more you will get as a result. I know this teaching well because I followed it for several years in my early Christian days. It is both addictive and deceptive. Who doesn’t want to be happy and “up” all the time? Most of us realize that not only is this unbiblical; it is not realistic.
The tragic thing is hoards of people are being influenced by Osteen’s limited theology, and they end up looking at God as some kind of genie.
On page 306 of Your Best Life Now, Joel claims, “It’s our faith that activates the power of God.” When the emphasis is on the power of our own words instead of the power of the resurrec­tion, something’s wrong. He goes so far as to say it’s more important to speak to your problem than pray about it (pg. 124).
The following quotes are from Your Best Life Now by Pastor Joel Osteen:
“The first step to living at your full potential is to enlarge your vision. To live your best life now, you must start looking at life through eyes of faith, seeing yourself rising to new levels. See your business taking off. See your marriage restored. See your family prospering. See your dreams coming to pass. You must conceive it and believe it is possible if you ever hope to experi­ence it” (p. 4, emphasis his).
“You will produce what you’re continually seeing in your mind…. If you develop an image of victory, success, health, abundance, joy, peace, and happiness, nothing on earth will be able to hold those things from you … God wants to increase you financially, by giving you promotions, fresh ideas and cre­ativity” (p. 5).
“God wants you to live an overcoming life of victory. He doesn’t want you to barely get by. He’s called El Shaddai, ‘the God of more than enough’” (p. 33).
“You will often receive preferential treatment simply because your Father is the King of kings, and His glory and honor spill over onto you” (p. 40).
“Our words have tremendous power, and whether we want to or not, we will give life to what we’re saying, either good or bad…. Words are similar to seeds, by speaking them aloud, they are planted in our subconscious minds, and they take on a life of their own…. Get up each morning and look in the mirror and say, ‘I am valuable. I am loved. God has a great plan for my life. I have favor wherever I go. God’s blessings are chasing me down and overtaking me. Everything I touch prospers and succeeds!’ (p. 122-123)
“It’s going to happen…. Suddenly, your situation will change for the better … He will bring your dreams to pass” (pp. 196-198).
There’s nothing wrong with trying to be positive, but where is this found in the Bible?
Maybe you’re a fan of Joel Osteen. You may have read his books and have watched him on TV and are having a tough time accepting this. I strongly encourage you to pray about everything he or anyone teaches. If you sincerely seek God’s truth, He will reveal it to you. Osteen pres­ents a kind of self-help program under the guise of Bible instruction. There’s nothing wrong with optimism, but pastors [and teachers] need to stick with the Word of God.
People who follow Osteen’s happy formula and then fail to get the positive results he promises end up disillusioned and worse, get mad at God and fall away from him. Don’t you think Christians are responsible for telling people what they need to hear instead of what they want to hear? You won’t get that from Mr. Happy. Smooth talk. Positive vibes. Prosperity and abundance. Flattering speech. Deceptive doctrine with a smile…. Cotton Candy Christianity.
Follow @fiorazo https://twitter.com/fiorazo
Photo credit: faithchurchstlouis (Creative Commons)
Cotton Candy Christianity: Joel Osteen's Gospel of Neutrality and Omission
M
Avoiceinthewilderness
Re your age you have been trying to contact the wrong people.
Under settings and age, it says if your age is wrong to contact the admin.
To find the admin people click on "click links" the dark coloured bar at the top of the page
then click on "site leaders"
You will find various categories of people broken down into moderators, admin and also others
I would suggest you sent robop a PM with your correct year of birth to have it corrected.
Your comments that plenty of other do not have their age displayed is incorrect. This only
applies to people who have not made a sufficient a number of posts in the forums. Once a
person has made a certain number then their age starts to appear under their user name.
It is important to have a correct age displayed as many have said. It avoids misunderstandings,
posts can be adjusted according to the age of the person you are addressing.
It avoids 15 year old girls assuming they are chatting to a 15 year old guy either in the
forums or chat, when they are really 30 etc.
So now you know how to correct your age, how about sending a PM to the correct people.
Re your age you have been trying to contact the wrong people.
Under settings and age, it says if your age is wrong to contact the admin.
To find the admin people click on "click links" the dark coloured bar at the top of the page
then click on "site leaders"
You will find various categories of people broken down into moderators, admin and also others
I would suggest you sent robop a PM with your correct year of birth to have it corrected.
Your comments that plenty of other do not have their age displayed is incorrect. This only
applies to people who have not made a sufficient a number of posts in the forums. Once a
person has made a certain number then their age starts to appear under their user name.
It is important to have a correct age displayed as many have said. It avoids misunderstandings,
posts can be adjusted according to the age of the person you are addressing.
It avoids 15 year old girls assuming they are chatting to a 15 year old guy either in the
forums or chat, when they are really 30 etc.
So now you know how to correct your age, how about sending a PM to the correct people.
Aren't one sided conversations so much fun!!!? When I was going thru counseling my counselor asked me to help with his anger management classes. What we learned is such people have much in common with criminals abusers and wife beaters....and many of them are "religious" people. I suppose that's why I sort of smile a little when I see the heretic hunters come on here and rail against people. It comes from a place of insecurity and really terrible errors in thinking. It's even worse with the religious nuts because they learn a few bible scriptures and add that to their abusive repertoire.
Last edited:
A
A simple question to which was answered thoroughly in post #203, to which YOU, your very self, quoted and replied to...
...SIRK!
It's really a simple matter of reading the quotes you specifically reply to and 'RE-POST' so that ground doesn't have to be 'RE-COVERED', isn't it?
But we both know that's not why you're here, is it, Sirk?
I mean what with not a single relevant post by you in your last, oh, shall we say TEN posts in this thread?
I'd say you're not here to discuss the topic of this thread and that you're here simply to disturb those who are and to distract from the topic at hand.
MODERATORS! MODERATORS!!
I'd like this individual removed from this thread on the grounds that they refuse to cooperate with the stated rules of this forum and continue to disrupt and harass the members instead.
Please have Sirk BANNED or removed from this thread. I feel it can only encourage like-mannered behavior and promote deleterious activity concerning the Christain Chat Forum as a whole.
And you know what, it's just not a very Christian way to conduct oneself.
Thank you and God bless.
...SIRK!
It's really a simple matter of reading the quotes you specifically reply to and 'RE-POST' so that ground doesn't have to be 'RE-COVERED', isn't it?
But we both know that's not why you're here, is it, Sirk?
I mean what with not a single relevant post by you in your last, oh, shall we say TEN posts in this thread?
I'd say you're not here to discuss the topic of this thread and that you're here simply to disturb those who are and to distract from the topic at hand.
MODERATORS! MODERATORS!!
I'd like this individual removed from this thread on the grounds that they refuse to cooperate with the stated rules of this forum and continue to disrupt and harass the members instead.
Please have Sirk BANNED or removed from this thread. I feel it can only encourage like-mannered behavior and promote deleterious activity concerning the Christain Chat Forum as a whole.
And you know what, it's just not a very Christian way to conduct oneself.
Thank you and God bless.
A
The False Promise of the Prosperity Gospel: Why I Called Out Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer
08/21/2013 11:38 am ET | Updated Oct 21, 2013
Pastor Rick Henderson Pastor. Blogger. Sacred Skeptic.
Getty
I have been preaching for 20 years. Yesterday I did something that I have never done before in a sermon. I publicly called out false teachers and named them by name. I said:
I used to think that their error was so blatantly obvious that they could just be ignored. I was wrong. They are massively growing in popularity in the evangelical world and are seen as credible and helpful. Before I’m inundated with questioning emails I want to share why I distrust these two and think you should as well. So, don’t shoot me — at least not yet.
When I was a kid I could tell the difference between neighborhood kids who wanted to be my friend from the neighborhood kids who were my friends so that they could play with my toys. Joel and Joyce are the latter. They both teach a twisted form of Christianity that teaches obedience, giving and faith as a way to get things from God. They are both products of what is known as the Prosperity Gospel and The Word of Faith Movement, or the Seed Faith Movement.
Dangers of the Prosperity Gospel
John Piper does a great job of defining what the Prosperity Gospel is and why it is so sinister. Please take a few minutes to watch this before moving on the critiques of Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen:
Joyce Meyer
When I first heard her tell her story I was deeply moved and impressed. She is an amazing example of overcoming hurts and abuse. She will forever have my admiration and respect in that regard. Furthermore, she gives spectacular advice. If my wife or if one of my daughters went to her in a moment of crisis, I believe they would return with magnificently helpful advice. If they went to her for teaching, they would return with deadly heresy.
False Doctrine
1. She teaches that Jesus literally stopped being the Son of God on the Cross (listen here):
“The Bible can’t even find any way to explain this. Not really. That’s why you’ve got to get it by revelation. There are no words to explain what I’m telling you. I’ve got to just trust God that He’s putting it into your spirit like He put it into mine.” From “What Happened From the Cross to The Throne“
“Now spirits don’t have bodies, so we can’t see them. Okay? There probably is, I believe there is, and I certainly hope there is several angels up here this morning that are preaching with me. I believe that right before I speak some anointed statement to you, that one of them bends over and says in my ear what I’m supposed to say to you.” From “Witchcraft & Related Spirits” (Part 1) - 2 A-27 Audiotape)
Unfortunately I could continue with examples of her utter misuse of scripture, false teaching and blatant heresy. In America, Christians have an embarrassment of riches. We can buy more books, download more podcasts and tune into more helpful teachers than anyone else on the planet. The lies that she teaches are easily lost in the hum of all the great teachers we hear. But this is not the case in the third world.
In many other countries their resources are far fewer. Uneducated pastors, who are doing their very best and uninformed Christians have this garbage pumped into their countries through radio waves and TV broadcasts. Because Joyce Meyer is endorsed here, she is trusted there. And, she can afford to spread her message with the money she makes from American Christians who buy her books, CDs and who attend her conferences. Her influence is severely disrupting the church in the third world. Her teachings are the unfortunate starting point for Christians in the third world and it is birthing even greater heresies.
The devastating reality that we have to come to grips with is that when we support her here, we support the churches she is undoing there.
Financial Concerns
There is nothing wrong with being wealthy. I love it when Christians are rich. That should mean more money to fund the mission. But there is a line to how much money we as leaders should spend on ourselves. I don’t know where the line is, but it is somewhere before the ministry purchasing million dollar homes for us and our kids. That line is somewhere before purchasing us a $10 million private jet. The line is somewhere before the ministry spending $261, 498 for 68 pieces of furniture. That equates to $3,845.56 per item. That line is somewhere before spending so egregiously that the U.S. Senate investigates us. Joyce Meyer lands on the other side of that line.
The following link includes audio from Joyce Meyer. Around 5:30 she is asked if people will get more money back to them if they give financially to her ministry.
Not only does she teach giving as a way to leverage more money from God, she is reckless with desperate people. She is not at all concerned if people give to her instead of paying bills. This is intolerable!
Questionable Example and Lack of Accountability
I challenge you to watch a typical message by Joyce Meyer. Here are a few of things you will notice:
She pauses about every five minutes for applause. And if people don’t applaud she is likely to say something like, “I’m preaching better than you’re acting.”
She talks about herself constantly. She is the main character in every story she tells. Even when she talks about herself in a self-deprecating way, some how it comes across in a way that causes people to admire her more.
God talks to her and reveals new information to her... a lot!
Her ministry lacks real accountability. Her family and her close friends are the governing board. This is an organization that receives almost $100 million dollars annually, and with no substantive accountability.
Conclusion for Joyce Meyer
What I wrote and linked in the first section should have been enough to completely remove her from our sphere of trust. Her doctrine is horrific. Her hermeneutics are horrible. She is a woman who seems to have an unrestrained love for money and applause. Her finances are questionable at best. Her example is questionable at best. Her impact on desperate people here, as well as churches and pastors around the globe is wildly destructive.
I lament with you a sense of loss if she was a teacher you trusted. I lament that someone who is so wrong has so much influence with so many. I do not regret, however, pointing to her as a false teacher and as one who should be rejected.
Joel Osteen
Like Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen has some really great things to say. He is encouraging and the man is certainly happy. This should not be held against him.
The man is confused on theology. He has much of the same doctrinal misunderstandings as does Joyce Meyer. They come from the same tradition. His doctrine is difficult to discern for many because he won’t talk about doctrine. He won’t talk about theology. He quickly back pedals when asked hard questions, as seen here in an interview with Larry King.
In fairness, Joel published a letter of apology after this interview.
While I commend him for his humility and courage to publicly declare that he was wrong, this is just one of too many instances. He frequently misunderstands important matters of faith and doctrine when being interviewed. He repeatedly gets the Gospel wrong. And he does so when talking to millions.
If we take Joel at his word, our only conclusion is that he is either incapable or unwilling to understand and explain how the Gospel intersects with all of life.
We recently hosted Hank Hanegraaff (The Bible Answerman) at SMCC. He has some very helpful insights (here and here) into Joel Osteen’s confused views of faith, doctrine and Scripture:
Joel Osteen and Prosperity Gospel
The Prosperity Gospel is much like all other religions in that it uses faith, it uses doing good things to leverage material blessings from God. Essentially, use God to get things from God.
Philippians 4:10-13 I rejoiced greatly in the Lord that at last you renewed your concern for me. Indeed, you were concerned, but you had no opportunity to show it. I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. I can do all this through him who gives me strength.
Conclusion
When I was in seminary, Heather and I were poor. There were seasons in which I worked 70+ hours a week while taking a full-time Master’s load. There were times that I had to sleep every other day so that I could get all my work done. This was an extended period of exhausting financial stress.
During this time, I remember reading something from Joel Osteen. He and his wife claimed by faith a new house that they wanted. Joel was unsure, but his wife Victoria was confident. And she lovingly chastised him for his lack of faith. Sometime later, they purchased that house. Still in seminary, my wife and I were walking through our dream neighborhood and that was playing through my mind. As I walked through the neighborhood, looking at all the homes, I wanted so badly for what Joel is teaching to be true. I don’t know if you can understand how desperately I wanted it to be true.
I wanted relief and I wanted more. But I knew that it wasn’t true. I knew that my exhaustion and desperation made me emotionally vulnerable to this false Gospel. I’m educated and well read. I’ve haven’t just read the Bible, I’ve translated large chunks of it from the original Hebrew and Greek. I think I understand it. I think I have a relatively significant level of discernment. But for a moment, I was emotionally vulnerable to this false doctrine.
What about the millions of others who are desperate, searching, hoping and vulnerable without the discernment? We owe it to them to not tolerate a false gospel any longer.
If you made it to the end of this blog post, congratulations. This is a thick and heavy subject. Even though I’ve written much, this only begins to scratch the surface of the repugnant nature of the Prosperity Gospel.
Rick Henderson is a pastor who blogs at churchismessy.com. This post first appeared on his blog.
Jesus Sayings About The Poor
Luke 6:20-21
Luke 6:20-21 Then he looked up at his disciples and said: ‘Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. ‘Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you will be filled. ‘Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh
Follow Pastor Rick Henderson on Twitter: www.twitter.com/Rick_says
The False Promise of the Prosperity Gospel: Why I Called Out Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer | Huffington Post
08/21/2013 11:38 am ET | Updated Oct 21, 2013
Pastor Rick Henderson Pastor. Blogger. Sacred Skeptic.
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I have been preaching for 20 years. Yesterday I did something that I have never done before in a sermon. I publicly called out false teachers and named them by name. I said:
If you listen to Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer, if you take what they teach seriously, it will not be good for you. It will be detrimental to your long-term growth as a follower of Jesus.
(You can watch my sermon here.)
I used to think that their error was so blatantly obvious that they could just be ignored. I was wrong. They are massively growing in popularity in the evangelical world and are seen as credible and helpful. Before I’m inundated with questioning emails I want to share why I distrust these two and think you should as well. So, don’t shoot me — at least not yet.
When I was a kid I could tell the difference between neighborhood kids who wanted to be my friend from the neighborhood kids who were my friends so that they could play with my toys. Joel and Joyce are the latter. They both teach a twisted form of Christianity that teaches obedience, giving and faith as a way to get things from God. They are both products of what is known as the Prosperity Gospel and The Word of Faith Movement, or the Seed Faith Movement.
Dangers of the Prosperity Gospel
John Piper does a great job of defining what the Prosperity Gospel is and why it is so sinister. Please take a few minutes to watch this before moving on the critiques of Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen:
Joyce Meyer
When I first heard her tell her story I was deeply moved and impressed. She is an amazing example of overcoming hurts and abuse. She will forever have my admiration and respect in that regard. Furthermore, she gives spectacular advice. If my wife or if one of my daughters went to her in a moment of crisis, I believe they would return with magnificently helpful advice. If they went to her for teaching, they would return with deadly heresy.
False Doctrine
1. She teaches that Jesus literally stopped being the Son of God on the Cross (listen here):
“He could have helped himself up until the point where he said I commend my spirit into your hands, at that point he couldn’t do nothing for himself anymore. He had become sin, he was no longer the Son of God. He was sin.”
2. She teaches that Jesus went to Hell and became the first-born again man (listen here):
“Do you know something? The minute that blood sacrifice was accepted Jesus was the first human being that was ever born again. Now that was real it happened when he was in hell.”
3. She teaches that Jesus paid for our sins in Hell:
3. She teaches that Jesus paid for our sins in Hell:
“There is no hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth I am presenting. You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your heart that Jesus took your place in hell” -From The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make
4. She teaches that words have power and you can release the power of Heaven through your words.
5. She teaches that you need special revelation from God to understand what she teaches because it is NOT contained in the Bible (listen here):4. She teaches that words have power and you can release the power of Heaven through your words.
“The Bible can’t even find any way to explain this. Not really. That’s why you’ve got to get it by revelation. There are no words to explain what I’m telling you. I’ve got to just trust God that He’s putting it into your spirit like He put it into mine.” From “What Happened From the Cross to The Throne“
“Now spirits don’t have bodies, so we can’t see them. Okay? There probably is, I believe there is, and I certainly hope there is several angels up here this morning that are preaching with me. I believe that right before I speak some anointed statement to you, that one of them bends over and says in my ear what I’m supposed to say to you.” From “Witchcraft & Related Spirits” (Part 1) - 2 A-27 Audiotape)
In many other countries their resources are far fewer. Uneducated pastors, who are doing their very best and uninformed Christians have this garbage pumped into their countries through radio waves and TV broadcasts. Because Joyce Meyer is endorsed here, she is trusted there. And, she can afford to spread her message with the money she makes from American Christians who buy her books, CDs and who attend her conferences. Her influence is severely disrupting the church in the third world. Her teachings are the unfortunate starting point for Christians in the third world and it is birthing even greater heresies.
The devastating reality that we have to come to grips with is that when we support her here, we support the churches she is undoing there.
Financial Concerns
There is nothing wrong with being wealthy. I love it when Christians are rich. That should mean more money to fund the mission. But there is a line to how much money we as leaders should spend on ourselves. I don’t know where the line is, but it is somewhere before the ministry purchasing million dollar homes for us and our kids. That line is somewhere before purchasing us a $10 million private jet. The line is somewhere before the ministry spending $261, 498 for 68 pieces of furniture. That equates to $3,845.56 per item. That line is somewhere before spending so egregiously that the U.S. Senate investigates us. Joyce Meyer lands on the other side of that line.
The following link includes audio from Joyce Meyer. Around 5:30 she is asked if people will get more money back to them if they give financially to her ministry.
Not only does she teach giving as a way to leverage more money from God, she is reckless with desperate people. She is not at all concerned if people give to her instead of paying bills. This is intolerable!
Questionable Example and Lack of Accountability
I challenge you to watch a typical message by Joyce Meyer. Here are a few of things you will notice:
She pauses about every five minutes for applause. And if people don’t applaud she is likely to say something like, “I’m preaching better than you’re acting.”
She talks about herself constantly. She is the main character in every story she tells. Even when she talks about herself in a self-deprecating way, some how it comes across in a way that causes people to admire her more.
God talks to her and reveals new information to her... a lot!
Her ministry lacks real accountability. Her family and her close friends are the governing board. This is an organization that receives almost $100 million dollars annually, and with no substantive accountability.
Conclusion for Joyce Meyer
What I wrote and linked in the first section should have been enough to completely remove her from our sphere of trust. Her doctrine is horrific. Her hermeneutics are horrible. She is a woman who seems to have an unrestrained love for money and applause. Her finances are questionable at best. Her example is questionable at best. Her impact on desperate people here, as well as churches and pastors around the globe is wildly destructive.
I lament with you a sense of loss if she was a teacher you trusted. I lament that someone who is so wrong has so much influence with so many. I do not regret, however, pointing to her as a false teacher and as one who should be rejected.
Joel Osteen
Like Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen has some really great things to say. He is encouraging and the man is certainly happy. This should not be held against him.
The man is confused on theology. He has much of the same doctrinal misunderstandings as does Joyce Meyer. They come from the same tradition. His doctrine is difficult to discern for many because he won’t talk about doctrine. He won’t talk about theology. He quickly back pedals when asked hard questions, as seen here in an interview with Larry King.
In fairness, Joel published a letter of apology after this interview.
While I commend him for his humility and courage to publicly declare that he was wrong, this is just one of too many instances. He frequently misunderstands important matters of faith and doctrine when being interviewed. He repeatedly gets the Gospel wrong. And he does so when talking to millions.
If we take Joel at his word, our only conclusion is that he is either incapable or unwilling to understand and explain how the Gospel intersects with all of life.
We recently hosted Hank Hanegraaff (The Bible Answerman) at SMCC. He has some very helpful insights (here and here) into Joel Osteen’s confused views of faith, doctrine and Scripture:
Joel Osteen and Prosperity Gospel
The Prosperity Gospel is much like all other religions in that it uses faith, it uses doing good things to leverage material blessings from God. Essentially, use God to get things from God.
“God has already done everything He’s going to do. The ball is now in your court. If you want success, if you want wisdom, if you want to be prosperous and healthy, you’re going to have to do more than meditate and believe; you must boldly declare words of faith and victory over yourself and your family” From Your Best Life Now, p.132
“If you are believing for your child to find God, go help somebody else’s child to develop a relationship with God. If you’re struggling financially, go out and help somebody who has less than you have ... f you want to reap financial blessings, you must sow financial seeds in the lives of others ... If you want to see healing and restoration come to your life, go out and help somebody else get well” From Your Best Life Now, pp. 224, 250-51
This is not the Gospel. This is a false Gospel. Joel teaches that we open ourselves to God to get more from God. He teaches that we use our words to speak into existence a better reality. This straight from the Word of Faith Movement. This is not what is taught throughout the New Testament. Consider what the Apostle Paul wrote. And remember that he wrote this while in prison.“If you are believing for your child to find God, go help somebody else’s child to develop a relationship with God. If you’re struggling financially, go out and help somebody who has less than you have ... f you want to reap financial blessings, you must sow financial seeds in the lives of others ... If you want to see healing and restoration come to your life, go out and help somebody else get well” From Your Best Life Now, pp. 224, 250-51
Philippians 4:10-13 I rejoiced greatly in the Lord that at last you renewed your concern for me. Indeed, you were concerned, but you had no opportunity to show it. I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. I can do all this through him who gives me strength.
Conclusion
When I was in seminary, Heather and I were poor. There were seasons in which I worked 70+ hours a week while taking a full-time Master’s load. There were times that I had to sleep every other day so that I could get all my work done. This was an extended period of exhausting financial stress.
During this time, I remember reading something from Joel Osteen. He and his wife claimed by faith a new house that they wanted. Joel was unsure, but his wife Victoria was confident. And she lovingly chastised him for his lack of faith. Sometime later, they purchased that house. Still in seminary, my wife and I were walking through our dream neighborhood and that was playing through my mind. As I walked through the neighborhood, looking at all the homes, I wanted so badly for what Joel is teaching to be true. I don’t know if you can understand how desperately I wanted it to be true.
I wanted relief and I wanted more. But I knew that it wasn’t true. I knew that my exhaustion and desperation made me emotionally vulnerable to this false Gospel. I’m educated and well read. I’ve haven’t just read the Bible, I’ve translated large chunks of it from the original Hebrew and Greek. I think I understand it. I think I have a relatively significant level of discernment. But for a moment, I was emotionally vulnerable to this false doctrine.
What about the millions of others who are desperate, searching, hoping and vulnerable without the discernment? We owe it to them to not tolerate a false gospel any longer.
If you made it to the end of this blog post, congratulations. This is a thick and heavy subject. Even though I’ve written much, this only begins to scratch the surface of the repugnant nature of the Prosperity Gospel.
Rick Henderson is a pastor who blogs at churchismessy.com. This post first appeared on his blog.
Jesus Sayings About The Poor
Luke 6:20-21
Luke 6:20-21 Then he looked up at his disciples and said: ‘Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. ‘Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you will be filled. ‘Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh
Follow Pastor Rick Henderson on Twitter: www.twitter.com/Rick_says
The False Promise of the Prosperity Gospel: Why I Called Out Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer | Huffington Post
I don't think anyone here would start off in a war with you. What I am sure of is that your lashing out won't gain you any ground with respect to what your intentions are, even if they are just simply to be understood. You certainly won't change anyone's mind by whacking them over the head with you notion of "truth". I've seen enough in this life for you to not even register on an annoyance scale. Lol. Conversely, you seem to be tipped over into full on attack mode. What's up with that? You should ask you self and wait on God to reveal that to you.
A
Class is over........???
You can't possibly be serious.
What a shameful, SHAME-FULL, embarrassingly incompetent attempt at schooling ANYBODY on anything, Sirk.
I feel for you. I do.
God bless you and your counselor and all those striving to help you in your affairs.
Hours and hours here and countless posts on this thread accomplishing absolutely..............NOTHING.
Nothing, Sirk.
I'm sorry you've wasted my time. I am.
I will pray for you. I promise.
God bless.
You can't possibly be serious.
What a shameful, SHAME-FULL, embarrassingly incompetent attempt at schooling ANYBODY on anything, Sirk.
I feel for you. I do.
God bless you and your counselor and all those striving to help you in your affairs.
Hours and hours here and countless posts on this thread accomplishing absolutely..............NOTHING.
Nothing, Sirk.
I'm sorry you've wasted my time. I am.
I will pray for you. I promise.
God bless.
Does God tell us to forgive because it's good for the other person or because it benefits Him? Or does He tell us to forgive because He is writing us His prescription for peace in our hearts? Aside, from the fact that selfless purity is impossible in this body. In fact, I bet you could find selfish motivation for posting in this thread if you truly looked for it. I've found mine already. Lol
A
Yes, Sirk. Yes we should.
We SHOULD forgive those old nasty False Prophets and Wolves in Sheep's clothing. ABSOLUTELY!
I forgive em all!!
How bout that?!!
More infinite wisdom from SIRK!
Forgive those pesky leaders of the masses to the wide gates of hell. Surely they don't MEAN to lead MILLIONS to their destruction.
It's probably just the money and all. Yes, that must be it. It's the money. They don't intend to cause the Death of souls, they simply......want......your......MONEY!!!
Phew......I feel better.
P.S. And thanks for re-posting my vids and stuff, Sirk. That actually supports my cause.
We SHOULD forgive those old nasty False Prophets and Wolves in Sheep's clothing. ABSOLUTELY!
I forgive em all!!
How bout that?!!
More infinite wisdom from SIRK!
Forgive those pesky leaders of the masses to the wide gates of hell. Surely they don't MEAN to lead MILLIONS to their destruction.
It's probably just the money and all. Yes, that must be it. It's the money. They don't intend to cause the Death of souls, they simply......want......your......MONEY!!!
Phew......I feel better.
P.S. And thanks for re-posting my vids and stuff, Sirk. That actually supports my cause.
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