Originally posted by bluto:
1. The following is what one member on these forums stated, "FYI, I was a Trinitatian for 45 years unbtil I got tired of trying to support it when neither the Bible, Jesus nor His disciples taught it. Supposing you show me where they do."
1. Quasar92: That's exactly right, bluto! Neither the Bible, Jesus nor His disciple ever taught any such thing as the Trinity! So why do you do so?
2. First of all we all know the word "trinity" is not in the Bible. But that proves nothing because "monotheism, omnipresent, omnicient, omnipotent, the word "Bible" is not in there either. However, the concept of these words are in the Bible. Now, I have read a lot of what quasar has written and there are just too many flaws in what he says because he takes verses out of context to prove his errant theology.
2. You may have read a lot of what I have written, bluto, and claim it has too many flaws in it. Let me see you reveal one single flaw you claim to have found, and prove it is a flaw by the Scriptures! Show me what I have written to be out of context! That is a flat-out crutch, to say nothing of it being completely false!
3. He says Jesus never pre-existed His incarnation and one of the verses he uses is Proverbs 8:22. I will get back to this later. But first I want to say the doctrine of the trinity is not an "assumption" as quasar seems to think. It is the normative systematic theology of God in Christianity and is BASED on the fact that the Bible is explicit in tellin gus that there is, was and forever will be only ONE God and the fact that the Bible IDENTIFIES three (and only three) persons as God.
3. That is a false statement to begin with! You clearly did not read my post #341, where I thoroughly cover the origin of the pre-incarnate Jesus! FYI, the doctrine of the Trinity was invented by church fathers and sold to the RCC, and ratified into Church annals in the 5th century! It was politically motivated and was never an inspiration of the Holy Spirit! Show me where the Bible identifies God as three persons!
4. So, how does the Bible identify the persons of the Trinity?
1) His names.
2) His titles
3) His unique attributes
4) His unique actions
5) His worship
4. the above does not prove God is three persons in any way, shape or form!See my post #341 to explain to you who and what God is, by the Scriptures, together with the origin of Jesus!
5. The Trinity does not rely on any single verse in the Bible for its representation and similarly, it cannot be refuted by any single verse in the Bible. It is a doctrine that explains the nature of the one and only true God described in the Bible. It is also drawn from a HARMONIZATION of ALL of scripture and therefore can only be understood from a view that accounts for ALL the Bible.
The above is pure guesswrok without a shred of Scriptural support!
6. I always get a kick out of people (who don't think things through) when they say, "Show me one verse where Jesus claimed to be God?" As if there a verse like that in the Bible it would convice them that Jesus is God?
Or like quasar stated in his long list of particulars, "If Jesus is God did He rasie Himself?" Or an oldie but a goody, "If Jesus is God why didn't He know the time of His own return?"
6. Indeed bluto, and I get a kick out of people who assume the authority to teach the Bible without qualifications to do so! So far, the work on this subject consists of what you have written about it on this thread. However, I have spent 45 years as a Trinitarion, 35 more years learning how and what God identifies Himself as , together with the origin of Jesus, have spent more than 16 years on Christian discussion forums debating this issue, in comparison. So the monkey is clearly on your back as to those people you claim "do not think things through!" There is no such thing as a triune Godhead, because the Scriptures clearly refute it!
7. Now, getting back to the identity issue. His names! Who is called by the NAMES of God (YHWH and its variants) either directly or indirectly but usually both. His titles! What are the recognized TITLES? (Lord, king, savior, first and last etc.)
His unique attributes/characteristic! (Omnipresence, omnipotence, eternality, omniciense etc.)
7. The Hebrew tetragramaton YHWH, is the EXCLUSIVE name of Almighty God, the Holy Spirit and Father, His title, of Jesus, who's title is Son, as documented in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35. Yahshua is the Hebrew name of Jesus.
8. How about His unique actions! (Creation, origin of God's word, salvation of men and/or creation etc.) How about His worship? Who is given honor, reverence and position due to God ALONE? In fact, when Thomas declared to Jesus Christ Himself at John 20:28 that Jesus Christ was "his Lord and God" this was in the vain of the highest form of worship there can be.
8. You're doing a lot of wheel spinning, because you argue about things that are thoroughly covered in my post #341, as well as in the response to your above remarks answered in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35! You need to do more reading, bluto!
9. Let me be clear that I am NOT saying that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all consistently, equally and in every mention identified as God in every place they are represented in the Bible by any combination of these 5. I am saying each person of the tgrinity receives some COMBINATION of the 5 means of identifying and distinguishing God listed above.
9. According to what? From the denomination of one, created by bluto? For starters, review Jn.14:28 and 17:3, as well as Heb.1:2, to say nothing of the many OT Scriptures such as Isa.45:5.
10. Another thing I noticed in reading what quasar stated was that he mixes terms thinking they mean the same thing. He equates the term "being" with the term "persons." They do not mean the same thing. He also used the word "separate" by saying the persons of the trinity are three separate persons. No they are not. They are distinct persons and the word "separate" and "distinct" do not mean the same thing.
10. Which is a true expedition into la la land rooting for something to shore up your argument!. FYI, a human being is often times referred to as a being, whether acceptable to you or not. The only mixed up one here is you! Furthermore, I never said the persons of the rinity are separate people! I said The Father and the Son are very separate beings/persons, as the Scriptures are crystal clear about. Review Post #341 for proof!
11. Now getting back to quasar and him quoting Proverbs 8:22 to prove Jesus Christ was created. First of all the subject of Proverbs 8 is wisdon. And wisdom is identified as a "she" in the chapter. Secondly, the very wisdomj by which God acts is divne, it's always with Him. In other words, there was never a time when God was without wisdom. When Jesus Christ is called the wisdom of God at 1 Corithians 1:24 it mean in His humanity the human expression of Jesus Christ is Gods wisdom in action. Remember, Jesus Christ is the physical manifestation of God. So where am I going wrong? Anybody?
11. That Jesus is the Wisdom [Power and knowledge] of God is made abundantly clear in 1 Cor.1:24 and Col.2:2-3, beginning with His first advent ministry.
This post is already very lengthy, so I will not post Pr.8:22 through 25/36 again, but a careful review of it reveals there is no way it is discussing God bringing forth/giving birth or possessing/creating wisdom. Because wisdom always existed with God. But rather the personification of wisdom in the person of the pre-incarnated Jesus Christ. See the annotation and endorsement of it by the Editorial Committee of the 1967 Scofield KJV version of the Bible below.
From the above, the Word of God clearly reveals the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus Christ was created and is therefore not 'co-eternal' or co-equal with the Spirit of God, as God stated clearly in Isa.43:10 and 44:6, and as did Jesus in Jn.14:28 and in Jn.17:3. [See #7 below as to when Jesus became the Son of God/God the Son]. The same passage of Scripture also clearly reveals there are two 'personages' involved, not just one, in Pr.8:22-36.
In the KJV, is another example of the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus being created from their translation of Pr.8:22, which reads as follows: "The Lord POSSESSED me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old." In a review of Gen.14:19 and 22 KJV, the term POSSESS in both verses means CREATOR, i.e., that God CREATED the heavens and the earth, as well as the pre-incarnated Spirit of Jesus Christ, confirming Col.1:15, which states the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus is the FIRSTBORN OVER ALL CREATION.
Gen.14:19 and 22 are translated CREATED in the NIV and annotated as such in the NASB.
To further reinforce the Pr.8:22-36 passage, it can also be seen in Col.1:15, that Jesus is/was the FIRSTBORN over all creation. And in vs 18, is written that He was/is the FIRSTBORN from the dead. Let it be abundantly clear, the term, 'FIRSTBORN' means exactly the same in both verses! It means FIRSTBORN, as a firstborn child in a family of multiple children, or if only one, as in Pr.8:22, He was brought forth as the first of YHWH's works, before anything else was created, before the world began. Confirmed in Col.1:15. a
5. In vs 30 of the Pr.8 NIV text is the following:
"when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side.I was filled with delight day after day," [Vs 29-30] Confirming: Gen.1:26; Gen.14:7; Jn.1:3; Col.1:16 and in Heb.1:2.
6. The Holy Spirit, who is our One and Only God [Isa.43:10 and 44:6], not only stated He was the Father of Israel , in Dt.32:6, but also prophecied He was going to be the Father of a Son, in: 2 Sam.7:14; 1 Chr.17:13 and in Ps.2:7. Which was fulfilled in Mt.1:20, Lk.1:32, 35 and 2:7. Therefore, there is no option to the Scriptural fact: God, the Holy Spirit was/is the Father of Jesus Christ. And gave a body to the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus, by the virgin Mary, Confirming Jn.1:14 and Heb.10:5.
7. The pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus then became the incarnate Son of God in Lk.1:35, and received His name, Jesus, in Lk.1:31. Literally, God the Son, fulfilling the prophecy of the Holy Spirit, in Ps.45:6-7, 110:1 and Isa.7:14. Empowered to give/baptize with the Holy Spirit, according to Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16; Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3. To perform 36 miracles, of raising some from the dead, healing people with leprosy and other terminal illnesses as well as the blind and the deaf. Which no normal human being could ever do.
8. The title, "Father," given to God, the Holy Spirit, is nothing more than the very same title all men receive who produce children of their own! It does not constitute making God, who is the Holy Spirit, two persons through the use of His title as Father Trinitarians attempt to do! Which is the reason why Mt.28:19 was obviously altered, by unscrupulous scribes to support their belief in the doctrine of the Trinity. As well as 1 Jn.5:7, that was a late Latin insert around the 11th or 12th centuries that never appeared in any of the earlier, more reliable Greek manuscripts..
[FONT="]Annotation from the 1967 Scofield KJV version of the Bible, page 677:[/FONT]
[FONT="]"[Pr.8:22-36] That wisdom is more than the personification of an attribute of God, or the will of God as best for man, but is a distinct foreshadowing of Christ, is certain. Pr.6:22-36 with Jn.1:1-3; 1 Cor.1:24, Col.2:3, can refer to no one less than the eternal Son of God. Some say that "possessed" [Verse 22] should be rendered "created," which would thus indicate that Christ was a created being. As recorded in Gen.14:19 and 22."[/FONT]
[FONT="]Fully endorsed by the following Editorial Committee:[/FONT]
[FONT="]1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D.[/FONT]
Quasar92
1. The following is what one member on these forums stated, "FYI, I was a Trinitatian for 45 years unbtil I got tired of trying to support it when neither the Bible, Jesus nor His disciples taught it. Supposing you show me where they do."
1. Quasar92: That's exactly right, bluto! Neither the Bible, Jesus nor His disciple ever taught any such thing as the Trinity! So why do you do so?
2. First of all we all know the word "trinity" is not in the Bible. But that proves nothing because "monotheism, omnipresent, omnicient, omnipotent, the word "Bible" is not in there either. However, the concept of these words are in the Bible. Now, I have read a lot of what quasar has written and there are just too many flaws in what he says because he takes verses out of context to prove his errant theology.
2. You may have read a lot of what I have written, bluto, and claim it has too many flaws in it. Let me see you reveal one single flaw you claim to have found, and prove it is a flaw by the Scriptures! Show me what I have written to be out of context! That is a flat-out crutch, to say nothing of it being completely false!
3. He says Jesus never pre-existed His incarnation and one of the verses he uses is Proverbs 8:22. I will get back to this later. But first I want to say the doctrine of the trinity is not an "assumption" as quasar seems to think. It is the normative systematic theology of God in Christianity and is BASED on the fact that the Bible is explicit in tellin gus that there is, was and forever will be only ONE God and the fact that the Bible IDENTIFIES three (and only three) persons as God.
3. That is a false statement to begin with! You clearly did not read my post #341, where I thoroughly cover the origin of the pre-incarnate Jesus! FYI, the doctrine of the Trinity was invented by church fathers and sold to the RCC, and ratified into Church annals in the 5th century! It was politically motivated and was never an inspiration of the Holy Spirit! Show me where the Bible identifies God as three persons!
4. So, how does the Bible identify the persons of the Trinity?
1) His names.
2) His titles
3) His unique attributes
4) His unique actions
5) His worship
4. the above does not prove God is three persons in any way, shape or form!See my post #341 to explain to you who and what God is, by the Scriptures, together with the origin of Jesus!
5. The Trinity does not rely on any single verse in the Bible for its representation and similarly, it cannot be refuted by any single verse in the Bible. It is a doctrine that explains the nature of the one and only true God described in the Bible. It is also drawn from a HARMONIZATION of ALL of scripture and therefore can only be understood from a view that accounts for ALL the Bible.
The above is pure guesswrok without a shred of Scriptural support!
6. I always get a kick out of people (who don't think things through) when they say, "Show me one verse where Jesus claimed to be God?" As if there a verse like that in the Bible it would convice them that Jesus is God?
Or like quasar stated in his long list of particulars, "If Jesus is God did He rasie Himself?" Or an oldie but a goody, "If Jesus is God why didn't He know the time of His own return?" 6. Indeed bluto, and I get a kick out of people who assume the authority to teach the Bible without qualifications to do so! So far, the work on this subject consists of what you have written about it on this thread. However, I have spent 45 years as a Trinitarion, 35 more years learning how and what God identifies Himself as , together with the origin of Jesus, have spent more than 16 years on Christian discussion forums debating this issue, in comparison. So the monkey is clearly on your back as to those people you claim "do not think things through!" There is no such thing as a triune Godhead, because the Scriptures clearly refute it!
7. Now, getting back to the identity issue. His names! Who is called by the NAMES of God (YHWH and its variants) either directly or indirectly but usually both. His titles! What are the recognized TITLES? (Lord, king, savior, first and last etc.)
His unique attributes/characteristic! (Omnipresence, omnipotence, eternality, omniciense etc.)
7. The Hebrew tetragramaton YHWH, is the EXCLUSIVE name of Almighty God, the Holy Spirit and Father, His title, of Jesus, who's title is Son, as documented in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35. Yahshua is the Hebrew name of Jesus.
8. How about His unique actions! (Creation, origin of God's word, salvation of men and/or creation etc.) How about His worship? Who is given honor, reverence and position due to God ALONE? In fact, when Thomas declared to Jesus Christ Himself at John 20:28 that Jesus Christ was "his Lord and God" this was in the vain of the highest form of worship there can be.
8. You're doing a lot of wheel spinning, because you argue about things that are thoroughly covered in my post #341, as well as in the response to your above remarks answered in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35! You need to do more reading, bluto!
9. Let me be clear that I am NOT saying that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all consistently, equally and in every mention identified as God in every place they are represented in the Bible by any combination of these 5. I am saying each person of the tgrinity receives some COMBINATION of the 5 means of identifying and distinguishing God listed above.
9. According to what? From the denomination of one, created by bluto? For starters, review Jn.14:28 and 17:3, as well as Heb.1:2, to say nothing of the many OT Scriptures such as Isa.45:5.
10. Another thing I noticed in reading what quasar stated was that he mixes terms thinking they mean the same thing. He equates the term "being" with the term "persons." They do not mean the same thing. He also used the word "separate" by saying the persons of the trinity are three separate persons. No they are not. They are distinct persons and the word "separate" and "distinct" do not mean the same thing.
10. Which is a true expedition into la la land rooting for something to shore up your argument!. FYI, a human being is often times referred to as a being, whether acceptable to you or not. The only mixed up one here is you! Furthermore, I never said the persons of the rinity are separate people! I said The Father and the Son are very separate beings/persons, as the Scriptures are crystal clear about. Review Post #341 for proof!
11. Now getting back to quasar and him quoting Proverbs 8:22 to prove Jesus Christ was created. First of all the subject of Proverbs 8 is wisdon. And wisdom is identified as a "she" in the chapter. Secondly, the very wisdomj by which God acts is divne, it's always with Him. In other words, there was never a time when God was without wisdom. When Jesus Christ is called the wisdom of God at 1 Corithians 1:24 it mean in His humanity the human expression of Jesus Christ is Gods wisdom in action. Remember, Jesus Christ is the physical manifestation of God. So where am I going wrong? Anybody?
11. That Jesus is the Wisdom [Power and knowledge] of God is made abundantly clear in 1 Cor.1:24 and Col.2:2-3, beginning with His first advent ministry.
This post is already very lengthy, so I will not post Pr.8:22 through 25/36 again, but a careful review of it reveals there is no way it is discussing God bringing forth/giving birth or possessing/creating wisdom. Because wisdom always existed with God. But rather the personification of wisdom in the person of the pre-incarnated Jesus Christ. See the annotation and endorsement of it by the Editorial Committee of the 1967 Scofield KJV version of the Bible below.
From the above, the Word of God clearly reveals the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus Christ was created and is therefore not 'co-eternal' or co-equal with the Spirit of God, as God stated clearly in Isa.43:10 and 44:6, and as did Jesus in Jn.14:28 and in Jn.17:3. [See #7 below as to when Jesus became the Son of God/God the Son]. The same passage of Scripture also clearly reveals there are two 'personages' involved, not just one, in Pr.8:22-36.
In the KJV, is another example of the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus being created from their translation of Pr.8:22, which reads as follows: "The Lord POSSESSED me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old." In a review of Gen.14:19 and 22 KJV, the term POSSESS in both verses means CREATOR, i.e., that God CREATED the heavens and the earth, as well as the pre-incarnated Spirit of Jesus Christ, confirming Col.1:15, which states the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus is the FIRSTBORN OVER ALL CREATION.
Gen.14:19 and 22 are translated CREATED in the NIV and annotated as such in the NASB.
To further reinforce the Pr.8:22-36 passage, it can also be seen in Col.1:15, that Jesus is/was the FIRSTBORN over all creation. And in vs 18, is written that He was/is the FIRSTBORN from the dead. Let it be abundantly clear, the term, 'FIRSTBORN' means exactly the same in both verses! It means FIRSTBORN, as a firstborn child in a family of multiple children, or if only one, as in Pr.8:22, He was brought forth as the first of YHWH's works, before anything else was created, before the world began. Confirmed in Col.1:15. a
5. In vs 30 of the Pr.8 NIV text is the following:
"when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side.I was filled with delight day after day," [Vs 29-30] Confirming: Gen.1:26; Gen.14:7; Jn.1:3; Col.1:16 and in Heb.1:2.
6. The Holy Spirit, who is our One and Only God [Isa.43:10 and 44:6], not only stated He was the Father of Israel , in Dt.32:6, but also prophecied He was going to be the Father of a Son, in: 2 Sam.7:14; 1 Chr.17:13 and in Ps.2:7. Which was fulfilled in Mt.1:20, Lk.1:32, 35 and 2:7. Therefore, there is no option to the Scriptural fact: God, the Holy Spirit was/is the Father of Jesus Christ. And gave a body to the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus, by the virgin Mary, Confirming Jn.1:14 and Heb.10:5.
7. The pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus then became the incarnate Son of God in Lk.1:35, and received His name, Jesus, in Lk.1:31. Literally, God the Son, fulfilling the prophecy of the Holy Spirit, in Ps.45:6-7, 110:1 and Isa.7:14. Empowered to give/baptize with the Holy Spirit, according to Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16; Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3. To perform 36 miracles, of raising some from the dead, healing people with leprosy and other terminal illnesses as well as the blind and the deaf. Which no normal human being could ever do.
8. The title, "Father," given to God, the Holy Spirit, is nothing more than the very same title all men receive who produce children of their own! It does not constitute making God, who is the Holy Spirit, two persons through the use of His title as Father Trinitarians attempt to do! Which is the reason why Mt.28:19 was obviously altered, by unscrupulous scribes to support their belief in the doctrine of the Trinity. As well as 1 Jn.5:7, that was a late Latin insert around the 11th or 12th centuries that never appeared in any of the earlier, more reliable Greek manuscripts..
[FONT="]Annotation from the 1967 Scofield KJV version of the Bible, page 677:[/FONT]
[FONT="]"[Pr.8:22-36] That wisdom is more than the personification of an attribute of God, or the will of God as best for man, but is a distinct foreshadowing of Christ, is certain. Pr.6:22-36 with Jn.1:1-3; 1 Cor.1:24, Col.2:3, can refer to no one less than the eternal Son of God. Some say that "possessed" [Verse 22] should be rendered "created," which would thus indicate that Christ was a created being. As recorded in Gen.14:19 and 22."[/FONT]
[FONT="]Fully endorsed by the following Editorial Committee:[/FONT]
[FONT="]1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D.[/FONT]
Quasar92
