Romans 8:1-2, is conditional

[miknik5]

Originally Posted by PeterJens

Thanks for the instruction.
Trouble is we are called to share as the Lord leads and not just about
building people up. Or have you not noticed this from scripture.

By the way, you have not denied any observations I have made.
I am trying my friend to encourage you. But knowing the truth about
where you are is the first step towards choosing to go somewhere else,
unless you are actually happy.

But this is one word you have not used, happy. I am happy in the Lord,
where I am and am changing and growing, in His love and understanding.

So I encourage you to do likewise.

So what you are saying is that the LORD has told you these things about me and has instructed you to discipline me.

Correct?

Boy, this is fighting talk. Is this how you are when riled up?
To be honest I have no clue the kind of language you use, self, flesh,
me etc. It is a whole frame of reference I do not use, though the HG
crowd use it a lot, and you obviously are tuned into this.

Sharing is sharing. It is not filtered or with obvious intention, it is about who
someone is and what strikes them. So you decide to rebuke me, and tell me
I am speaking in the flesh, and my relationship with God is all wrong.

Just pointing out that is heavy stuff, but I generally look by this, because if I
did not, I would say you do not know the Lord. And I do not do that unless I
understand where someone is.

You said if we met face to face you would not be able to speak well.
Did I miss-understand you? I do not want to push your buttons so to speak,
but you are full on, you know, and I generally give back in the same way.

This is what they call two personalities meeting, lol.

I see you're at it again...
Causing confusion

Please review your initial post to me which prompted my question to you with regards to the LORD instructing you to somehow discipline me...

Thanks.

 

[PeterJens]

Go take a chill pill, Peter Jens....and get over yourself...
come back and let's talk about JESUS and HIM alone.
I thought that was what everyone here wanted to do.

It appears that many want to look and look at the other one while they SAY they want to talk about THE LORD.

Let's talk about WHAT IS GOOD...and keep our eyes on WHAT IS GOOD...

miknik5 - This all started because you wanted to criticise and put me right about my
approach. Are you now saying you do not want me to change my approach?

Now if you ask someone to change, you are actually engaging unless it is just a
put down. Maybe you are used to people not responding to you, so it is either
a bully tactic or a showed you.

I am always chilled, but maybe you have not spotted that. But I will defend my
point of view and expressions, and if you continue, explore why you feel entitled
to get so serious and condemning about simple sharing.

But maybe that is not your style. Your way or the highway, lol.

 

[miknik5]

miknik5 - This all started because you wanted to criticise and put me right about my
approach. Are you now saying you do not want me to change my approach?

Now if you ask someone to change, you are actually engaging unless it is just a
put down. Maybe you are used to people not responding to you, so it is either
a bully tactic or a showed you.

I am always chilled, but maybe you have not spotted that. But I will defend my
point of view and expressions, and if you continue, explore why you feel entitled
to get so serious and condemning about simple sharing.

But maybe that is not your style. Your way or the highway, lol.

What?
This all started because you didn't like my aloofness, sir...you didn't like the way I seem to be without feeling, detached, as if by my offering the WORD of GOD in all things, I somehow did NOT experience what you needed me to experience.

You thought you were supporting your own understanding of how one's relationship with THE LORD should look like based on yourself and your experiences.

I am fine.
But to you I wasn't fine...I needed help from you...

I don't.
And you didn't like or understand that.

 

[PeterJens]

I see you're at it again...
Causing confusion

Ok super-defensive person. I can see the smoke canisters, the draw bridge pulled up,
the accusations flying, the "I will burn you if you get closer"

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
Jesus 13:34-35

I leave it here. I praise the Lord for He is the Lord of all, and it is
His love and righteousness that will reign on earth one day

 

[miknik5]

Ok super-defensive person. I can see the smoke canisters, the draw bridge pulled up,
the accusations flying, the "I will burn you if you get closer"

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
Jesus 13:34-35

I leave it here. I praise the Lord for He is the Lord of all, and it is
His love and righteousness that will reign on earth one day

Sir
what you do not seem to acknowledge is that you had a BIG BIG part in that UNRIGHTEOUSNESS

But I forgive you and you are right
obe day the knowledge of the LORD will cover the earth as the waters of the seas and ALL will ((((happily))))) say. Come let us go up to the mountain of the LORD

HE WILL TEACH US HIS WAYS

 

[PeterJens]

What?
This all started because you didn't like my aloofness, sir...you didn't like the way I seem to be without feeling, detached, as if by my offering the WORD of GOD in all things, I somehow did NOT experience what you needed me to experience.

You thought you were supporting your own understanding of how one's relationship with THE LORD should look like based on yourself and your experiences.

I am fine.
But to you I wasn't fine...I needed help from you...

I don't.
And you didn't like or understand that.

I can see this view.
Let me say you come across critical of my approach to the Lord.
You are portraying what I am expressing as following Christ is my view only.

But in reality it is the traditional view of spirituality.

I do not need you to experience anything. I am sharing what the gospel is
and what walking with Christ is like. Sounds like you do not agree.

I am also sharing the biblical foundations of my faith, or our faith.
But it would appear we do not have the same experience or view.

But you actually want me to think like you, and labelled my sharing as flesh,
me.

I am sorry if I have invaded you privacy and caused you offence.
I always assume people know the Lord like I do, comes with the spiritual
territory, but obviously I am wrong.

 

[miknik5]

I can see this view.
Let me say you come across critical of my approach to the Lord.
You are portraying what I am expressing as following Christ is my view only.

But in reality it is the traditional view of spirituality.

I do not need you to experience anything. I am sharing what the gospel is
and what walking with Christ is like. Sounds like you do not agree.

I am also sharing the biblical foundations of my faith, or our faith.
But it would appear we do not have the same experience or view.

But you actually want me to think like you, and labelled my sharing as flesh,
me.

I am sorry if I have invaded you privacy and caused you offence.
I always assume people know the Lord like I do, comes with the spiritual
territory, but obviously I am wrong.

have you studied much in the way of traditional spirituality?

 

[PeterJens]

Sir
what you do not seem to acknowledge is that you had a BIG BIG part in that UNRIGHTEOUSNESS

But I forgive you and you are right
obe day the knowledge of the LORD will cover the earth as the waters of the seas and ALL will ((((happily))))) say. Come let us go up to the mountain of the LORD

HE WILL TEACH US HIS WAYS

I hope you can forgive me my approach.
I tend to provoke, get in a fight of words, respond, see how they go.

It comes from arguing and defining ideas, morals, religion, conviction, care, love etc.

And the funny thing is if you build up this knowledge and ability, there is no nice way
of engaging because we all have different takes at so many different levels.

"sir" is very american. I worked with a guy who always did this, normally a sign I had
got his back up, lol.

And my friend, the Lord is dangerous, because we are so different.
But hey, in Jesus's grace and love we stand, God bless you.

 

[miknik5]

I hope you can forgive me my approach.
I tend to provoke, get in a fight of words, respond, see how they go.

It comes from arguing and defining ideas, morals, religion, conviction, care, love etc.

And the funny thing is if you build up this knowledge and ability, there is no nice way
of engaging because we all have different takes at so many different levels.

"sir" is very american. I worked with a guy who always did this, normally a sign I had
got his back up, lol.

And my friend, the Lord is dangerous, because we are so different.
But hey, in Jesus's grace and love we stand, God bless you.

What do you mean the LORD is so dangerous?

 

[PeterJens]

have you studied much in the way of traditional spirituality?

I talk with people and follow ideas. Most of the people I am exposed to come from the
traditional strands of faith, high church, to low church, catholic, to charismatics.

My focus is on points of theology or frameworks of belief. So when dealing with a group
I will build up a model, and explore its implications. I then test out various conclusions
this gives me.

cc and HG are a new window, which closed for me 20+ years ago bringing up a family,
being a dad, and integrating into a local church.

To see how far things have moved was a shock. But the Lord has led me to much in
scripture and put down foundations in some areas reinforcing ideas, and in others taking
things away. But I work at a pure engagement level, and just go full on in.

The Lord is so good, He loves me so much, why not do this any other way?

 

[PeterJens]

What do you mean the LORD is so dangerous?

A prophet given a word from God to deliver without taking food.
He is deceived by another prophet, and dies in judgement as a result.

Jonah given a message to give to Nineveh. He runs away, almost dies in a fish,
preaches the word while being fed up.

All the apostles went to their deaths proclaiming Christ.

Moses did not honour God and was kept for entering the promised land.

A man puts out his hand to steady the arc of the covenant and is struck dead.

Israel where saved out of Egypt but many were struck dead thinking they were
ok and right and were totally wrong.

This is why caution, testing, wisdom are needed following Jesus.

 

[valiant]

The problem I find with cc is short statements often lead to miss-understanding.
When I first came here I defended someone who was being attacked for something which
I thought was actually a balanced position and I was accused of being a legalist.

After a long discussion, they admitted I was not. It is always hard in the middle ground.
Like I am partly calvanist and partly armenian. Like I believe we are chosen yet we can
choose to walk away.

Now for those with a superficial understanding of the complexities, it is just a single stop
shop. That is why I look for a debate, putting the arguments from both sides, because
over time I actually grow in faith and knowledge. cc has taught me a lot, lol, even bdf...

one of your problems is that you centre on us rather than on God. But God is not doing His work primarily for our sake. He is doing it for His glory's sake. We are the benefactors.

Read Eph 1., in accordance with the good pleasure of His will -- to the praise of the glory of His grace ---- according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound towards us ---- the mystery of HIs will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself --- according to the purpose of Him Who works all things after the counsel of His will --- that we should be to the praise of is glory --- unto the praise of His glory.

No man who is effectually chosen can walk away, otherwise it is NOT after the counsel of His own will etc,

you leave it to man to decide. that doesn't fit in with the above.

 

[miknik5]

A prophet given a word from God to deliver without taking food.
He is deceived by another prophet, and dies in judgement as a result.

Jonah given a message to give to Nineveh. He runs away, almost dies in a fish,
preaches the word while being fed up.

All the apostles went to their deaths proclaiming Christ.

Moses did not honour God and was kept for entering the promised land.

A man puts out his hand to steady the arc of the covenant and is struck dead.

Israel where saved out of Egypt but many were struck dead thinking they were
ok and right and were totally wrong.

This is why caution, testing, wisdom are needed following Jesus.

It's dangerous if we make a mistake in our understanding of what we were called to do. But the MESSAGE will but always be received by peaceable men. Which is why we were told to move. That the GOSPEL would be preached that HE would indeed send those who HE has called. But those who are ignorant and violent who lay a hand in HIS WITNESSES will be held accountable for their blood. This also HE said

You are confused in your understanding between a prophet then and a witness today and now

 

[Gr8grace]

No man who is effectually chosen can walk away, otherwise it is NOT after the counsel of His own will etc,

At this time in my walk I just cannot accept this statement.The moment we believe, we are saved,PERIOD. But after that we choose to be a disciple or not. We are a child and forever a child the moment we believe, but we choose to go onto maturity or not.

Its the other side of the coin that I can't agree with your above statement. I know many brothers and sisters in Christ who have walked away. And it isn't that they are not going to church, stopped giving,stopped serving and stopped professing Christ. They are now relying on themselves and their works to maintain their salvation.............that IS walking away from the faith.

He gives us all the tools,gifts and blessings we need to live the Christian way of life the moment we believe. There are many who never utilize these gifts and advance in the Christian way of life. According to His good purpose/pleasure He has given EVERY thing the believer needs to advance..........in advance. And many never tap into these assets.

 

[PeterJens]

It's dangerous if we make a mistake in our understanding of what we were called to do. But the MESSAGE will but always be received by peaceable men. Which is why we were told to move. That the GOSPEL would be preached that HE would indeed send those who HE has called. But those who are ignorant and violent who lay a hand in HIS WITNESSES will be held accountable for their blood. This also HE said

You are confused in your understanding between a prophet then and a witness today and now

I am confused? Do you mean you see the ministry of the prophet and our relationship
with Christ are different, so the danger is no longer there?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

At this time in my walk I just cannot accept this statement.The moment we believe, we are saved,PERIOD. But after that we choose to be a disciple or not. We are a child and forever a child the moment we believe, but we choose to go onto maturity or not.

Its the other side of the coin that I can't agree with your above statement. I know many brothers and sisters in Christ who have walked away. And it isn't that they are not going to church, stopped giving,stopped serving and stopped professing Christ. They are now relying on themselves and their works to maintain their salvation.............that IS walking away from the faith.

He gives us all the tools,gifts and blessings we need to live the Christian way of life the moment we believe. There are many who never utilize these gifts and advance in the Christian way of life. According to His good purpose/pleasure He has given EVERY thing the believer needs to advance..........in advance. And many never tap into these assets.

I think this is true.. I doubt many people actually walk away from the church because they loved their sin. I believe most leave because they are so convicted of their sins, and their lack of ability to live up to Gods standard.. They they give up. WHy bother when I will never live up..

Legalism is so dangerous, It not only prevents the world from seeing god as he is, It prevents babes in Christ from growing up..

 

[gb9]

I hope you can forgive me my approach.
I tend to provoke, get in a fight of words, respond, see how they go.

It comes from arguing and defining ideas, morals, religion, conviction, care, love etc.

And the funny thing is if you build up this knowledge and ability, there is no nice way
of engaging because we all have different takes at so many different levels.

"sir" is very american. I worked with a guy who always did this, normally a sign I had
got his back up, lol.

And my friend, the Lord is dangerous, because we are so different.
But hey, in Jesus's grace and love we stand, God bless you.

your first paragraph explains why you get so much hostile response. yes, we can forgive you, but you really should not do this. just post your thoughts, read the response, then respond directly to what was said. don't accuse, don't call them a lair. just respond to what was posted. then we can have a discussion.

 

[Gr8grace]

I think this is true.. I doubt many people actually walk away from the church because they loved their sin. I believe most leave because they are so convicted of their sins, and their lack of ability to live up to Gods standard.. They they give up. WHy bother when I will never live up..

Legalism is so dangerous, It not only prevents the world from seeing god as he is, It prevents babes in Christ from growing up..

You knocked that one out of the park! Spot on.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

your first paragraph explains why you get so much hostile response. yes, we can forgive you, but you really should not do this. just post your thoughts, read the response, then respond directly to what was said. don't accuse, don't call them a lair. just respond to what was posted. then we can have a discussion.

It would also help if he was confused about what we said, He would ask us, and not just assume.. Then get mad when we try to correct him.. because he misunderstood what we were thinking..

 

[PeterJens]

your first paragraph explains why you get so much hostile response. yes, we can forgive you, but you really should not do this. just post your thoughts, read the response, then respond directly to what was said. don't accuse, don't call them a lair. just respond to what was posted. then we can have a discussion.

This makes me laugh. Thank you for putting me right.