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[SUP]7 [/SUP]When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come and see.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]So I looked, and behold, a GREEN (Chloros) horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.
Which religion has power over 1/4 of the earth? Look at the same use of the world "power" in Rev 11.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”
Power now used twice to discuss two religions. The Church had power in the Levant from Pentecost until the Battle of Acre in 1291 when Muslims removed the last bit of power (the Crusaders) from the extended Holy Land in this massacre. Using the day=year principle, the math works. 1291-30 = 1261 days. Close enough for me since we don't know the exact year Christ was killed.
In this part of the world, the light went dim in 1291. Yes, this is my interpretation. A pretty good one I might add. Does anyone have a better idea, beside a world wide rapture of all believers before the massive attack on Israel? Which makes no sense by the way. I still don't see why the Church would need to be flown off to heaven before Israel gets invaded. Israel was invaded many times before including 1967 by overwhelming Islamic forces and the church wasn't raptured.
Which religion has power over 1/4 of the earth? Look at the same use of the world "power" in Rev 11.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”
Power now used twice to discuss two religions. The Church had power in the Levant from Pentecost until the Battle of Acre in 1291 when Muslims removed the last bit of power (the Crusaders) from the extended Holy Land in this massacre. Using the day=year principle, the math works. 1291-30 = 1261 days. Close enough for me since we don't know the exact year Christ was killed.
In this part of the world, the light went dim in 1291. Yes, this is my interpretation. A pretty good one I might add. Does anyone have a better idea, beside a world wide rapture of all believers before the massive attack on Israel? Which makes no sense by the way. I still don't see why the Church would need to be flown off to heaven before Israel gets invaded. Israel was invaded many times before including 1967 by overwhelming Islamic forces and the church wasn't raptured.
It's just that...you're speaking here with people who really study their bibles. And who have received the Holy Spirit. And none of us get even NEAR the same ideas from reading it. You can't approach it by reading and then saying what you think it means. He...begins to...cross reference for you, if you're patient and if you seek His understanding, not your own. I don't know what else to say, pw. No matter how many times you repeat it all, it's conjecture. But you don't present it as the conjecture that it is. You present it as the truth. And you present it as - if you don't believe what I say it means you are one of the deceived and don't have ears to hear and will most likely take the mark.
P
There is no definitive case to make. Either fits quite well.
Harpazo means several things as does apostete.
You are saying the rapture is NOT a departure? And that anything but " caught up" incorrectly describes the rapture?
For those that say "from the faith" is written in stone,lets play that out.
Only Christians can leave the faith.
That's not many people. If their are one billion professing,then maybe half that really are born again.what is that? 500000?
So 500,000,000 is the target. Now lets make half "fall away".
What is that? 250,000,000
What is that little number to the pop of the world 7%? 14%?
I dunno,just thinking out loud that one person per city block leaving the faith is basically nothing.
"falling away" seems to be a stretch after quasars post of vs 7&8
Harpazo means several things as does apostete.
You are saying the rapture is NOT a departure? And that anything but " caught up" incorrectly describes the rapture?
For those that say "from the faith" is written in stone,lets play that out.
Only Christians can leave the faith.
That's not many people. If their are one billion professing,then maybe half that really are born again.what is that? 500000?
So 500,000,000 is the target. Now lets make half "fall away".
What is that? 250,000,000
What is that little number to the pop of the world 7%? 14%?
I dunno,just thinking out loud that one person per city block leaving the faith is basically nothing.
"falling away" seems to be a stretch after quasars post of vs 7&8
I absolutely read my Bible as much if not more than anyone on here. There is only one truth about all these things. Either Christ comes before Israel is attacked by overwhelming Muslim forces or He doesn't. You and your company say He does when there is absolutely no verse that locates any return of Christ before Israel is attacked.
I show you the figurative language at work in Revelation and many read it with eyes glossed over. Why? Because the things that I have found don't agree with the nonsense taught in all the different seminaries in the USA. Think of this, were the religious leaders in Christ's day correct about anything??? What makes our leaders any better? Experience? I think not.
I never said pre-tribbers will take the mark. Most of you have no idea what that even means. Most think computer chip. Utter nonsense. Most think Rome comes back to life. Are we seeing that happen?? There is the narrative of lies or there is reality of what is happening. EVERYTHING I've been saying is unfolding exactly as I said it would but you see me as stupid.
Russia will lead an attack with Islamic forces to the north of Israel against Israel. This is the Great Tribulation. Guess what? You will still be here to see it happen then wonder where your rapture is.
All of this is said with love and respect sister. Just trying to help you open your eyes.
I show you the figurative language at work in Revelation and many read it with eyes glossed over. Why? Because the things that I have found don't agree with the nonsense taught in all the different seminaries in the USA. Think of this, were the religious leaders in Christ's day correct about anything??? What makes our leaders any better? Experience? I think not.
I never said pre-tribbers will take the mark. Most of you have no idea what that even means. Most think computer chip. Utter nonsense. Most think Rome comes back to life. Are we seeing that happen?? There is the narrative of lies or there is reality of what is happening. EVERYTHING I've been saying is unfolding exactly as I said it would but you see me as stupid.
Russia will lead an attack with Islamic forces to the north of Israel against Israel. This is the Great Tribulation. Guess what? You will still be here to see it happen then wonder where your rapture is.
All of this is said with love and respect sister. Just trying to help you open your eyes.
The fact of the matter is, Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul all taught the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, as documented in the following
:
The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church Beginning with Mt.24:31:
[/B] And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.
Lk.21:36:
"Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."
Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].
"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].
The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.
1 Thess.4:13-18:
The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.
"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.
"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.
Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.
"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.
"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.
"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.
2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].
The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.
In vs 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.
Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].
Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.
"He [The Antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thess.2:4.
The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."
The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:
In vs 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].
The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thess.2:3, 4 and 8.
From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.
Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!
The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:
http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf
Quasar92
[h=2]Scripturalproof for the pre-tribrapture of the Church:[/h]
The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!
The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:
1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.
2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.
3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.
4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.
Quasar92
The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!
The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:
1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.
2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.
3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.
4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.
Quasar92
Hello Popeye,
Yes, I agree that rapture (caught up) is a departure, but though departure is one of the words used to describe apostasia, it cannot not be used to mean to depart up into the air. In Acts 21:21 it is used as in "forsaking or departing" from the teachings of the Law and not to blast off from the earth to meet the Lord in the air. Also, the definition of the word "apostasia" speaks for itself in its meaning. In the definition, the word "departure" implies desertion.
Also regarding being "caught up," if the Holy Spirit wanted to convey that the meaning in 2 Thes.2:3 was to depart up into the air to meet the Lord, he would have used "Harpazo" as he did in the scriptures that I previously supplied.
Believe me, I would like to believe that the verse is referring to believers departing up, but in all good conscious I cannot. I have studied this scripture over and over again for years, but I just cannot get the word "apostasia" to mean to depart up into the air. I'm sure that any Greek scholar would agree. It just cannot be used that way. I do however believe that the one who is restraining is the Holy Spirit through the indwelling of believers and therefore when He is removed, then believers will also be removed, making the order of events being 1). The Restrainer/Church being removed and 2). The man of lawlessness being revealed. I am providing the definition of "apostasia" below. You look it over and tell me if you can happily make that word mean to depart into the air to meet the Lord.
======================================
Strong's Concordance
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Short Definition: defection, apostasy
Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.HELPS Word-studies
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575/apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 646: ἀποστασία
ἀποστασία, ἀποστασιας, ἡ (ἀφισταμαι), a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
falling away, apostacy
Feminine of the same as apostasion; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy") -- falling away, forsake.
Yes, I agree that rapture (caught up) is a departure, but though departure is one of the words used to describe apostasia, it cannot not be used to mean to depart up into the air. In Acts 21:21 it is used as in "forsaking or departing" from the teachings of the Law and not to blast off from the earth to meet the Lord in the air. Also, the definition of the word "apostasia" speaks for itself in its meaning. In the definition, the word "departure" implies desertion.
Also regarding being "caught up," if the Holy Spirit wanted to convey that the meaning in 2 Thes.2:3 was to depart up into the air to meet the Lord, he would have used "Harpazo" as he did in the scriptures that I previously supplied.
Believe me, I would like to believe that the verse is referring to believers departing up, but in all good conscious I cannot. I have studied this scripture over and over again for years, but I just cannot get the word "apostasia" to mean to depart up into the air. I'm sure that any Greek scholar would agree. It just cannot be used that way. I do however believe that the one who is restraining is the Holy Spirit through the indwelling of believers and therefore when He is removed, then believers will also be removed, making the order of events being 1). The Restrainer/Church being removed and 2). The man of lawlessness being revealed. I am providing the definition of "apostasia" below. You look it over and tell me if you can happily make that word mean to depart into the air to meet the Lord.
======================================
Strong's Concordance
apostasia: defection, revolt
Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡPart of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Short Definition: defection, apostasy
Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.HELPS Word-studies
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575/apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 646: ἀποστασία
ἀποστασία, ἀποστασιας, ἡ (ἀφισταμαι), a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
falling away, apostacy
Feminine of the same as apostasion; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy") -- falling away, forsake.
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One third of the world identifies as Christians today. That number is dropping rapidly all over the world as we are labeled bigots and haters in the west and they are getting slaughtered in the middle east by the tens of thousands. Let's say there are 2.3 billion self-identified Christians today.
The third trumpet shows that 1/3 of Christians are tainted by false doctrine and are not true Christians. We all could name a few denominations that would fit this description, those who accept gay marriage, abortions and accept false religions as just an alternative way to worship the same God, etc. They produce no fruit, they merely go through the motions on Sunday assuming they even go. Saved in name only. These would not be raptured, pre, mid or post.
So now the number of true Christians is down to 1.56 B. We come to the 4th trumpet. Another 1/3 of "the light" is dimmed. There is no explanation in astronomy to darken the literal sun, moon and stars. Even if the sun itself lost 1/3 of its light, the stars would remain the same but we'd all be dead from cold. There is nothing that could come between the moon and sun to block both as the moon rotates around the earth so the blockage of both could only last a few hours and again, this would not affect the stars. The only physical explanation would be world wide smoke covering the whole planet or something in the entire atmosphere. World wide famine and starvation if not actual death from the poor air quality would result quickly. So, I think it only makes sense to take these trumpets as figurative especially when they have solid figurative meanings.
Therefore, I think the 4th trumpet is the "falling away" of 1/3 of the church. (1/3 was already apostate), this 1/3 leaves the faith IMO. So that knocks the true Christian population down to 1 Billion. So, yes it would be 33% down to 7%.
I am convinced that the 6th trumpet where 1/3 of mankind is killed are all Muslims following ISLAM. Right now 1/4 of the world are Muslims so either some of other faiths join their ranks or some Christians join their ranks or Muslims are killing a lot of non Muslims to get their percentages up. We knew Islam is the fastest growing religion and that is by design. It could be a combination of things but by the time we get to the 6th trumpet, ISLAM will make up 1/3 of the world. No other religion has this potential. No country by itself has this potential. If look at where the angels were bound, Euphrates, there are only Muslims in the region with a few Jews.
Just random thoughts. They have declared a Caliphate and world-wide Jihad. Maybe they get better at killing us infidels or its a combination of factors. But, its clear to me that the 6th trumpet is divine judgment against a specific group which has been acting badly and my vote is Islam since she is the great harlot and we know that Babylon falls at some point.
The third trumpet shows that 1/3 of Christians are tainted by false doctrine and are not true Christians. We all could name a few denominations that would fit this description, those who accept gay marriage, abortions and accept false religions as just an alternative way to worship the same God, etc. They produce no fruit, they merely go through the motions on Sunday assuming they even go. Saved in name only. These would not be raptured, pre, mid or post.
So now the number of true Christians is down to 1.56 B. We come to the 4th trumpet. Another 1/3 of "the light" is dimmed. There is no explanation in astronomy to darken the literal sun, moon and stars. Even if the sun itself lost 1/3 of its light, the stars would remain the same but we'd all be dead from cold. There is nothing that could come between the moon and sun to block both as the moon rotates around the earth so the blockage of both could only last a few hours and again, this would not affect the stars. The only physical explanation would be world wide smoke covering the whole planet or something in the entire atmosphere. World wide famine and starvation if not actual death from the poor air quality would result quickly. So, I think it only makes sense to take these trumpets as figurative especially when they have solid figurative meanings.
Therefore, I think the 4th trumpet is the "falling away" of 1/3 of the church. (1/3 was already apostate), this 1/3 leaves the faith IMO. So that knocks the true Christian population down to 1 Billion. So, yes it would be 33% down to 7%.
I am convinced that the 6th trumpet where 1/3 of mankind is killed are all Muslims following ISLAM. Right now 1/4 of the world are Muslims so either some of other faiths join their ranks or some Christians join their ranks or Muslims are killing a lot of non Muslims to get their percentages up. We knew Islam is the fastest growing religion and that is by design. It could be a combination of things but by the time we get to the 6th trumpet, ISLAM will make up 1/3 of the world. No other religion has this potential. No country by itself has this potential. If look at where the angels were bound, Euphrates, there are only Muslims in the region with a few Jews.
Just random thoughts. They have declared a Caliphate and world-wide Jihad. Maybe they get better at killing us infidels or its a combination of factors. But, its clear to me that the 6th trumpet is divine judgment against a specific group which has been acting badly and my vote is Islam since she is the great harlot and we know that Babylon falls at some point.
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You must have a different Bible than me or a way of twisting the clear meaning that I hope you aren't doing in your personal life. It would be like you having a grocery list that says, "bread, milk, butter and cheese" but you get to the store and see, "ham, rice, bacon and pears."
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened... and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
The attack against Israel is over. It lasts up to 45 days as Daniel tells us. There is no 7 year tribulation (attack on Israel) taught. The last war lasted just 6 days. After the Tribulation means after. It doesn't mean before. If you alter this, you can alter any other clear teaching. Scary!!
That's the wrath, not the Tribulation. You would be escaping judgment wrath.
When Jesus is in heaven, every believer who has died and will die will be with Jesus in heaven. This is correct. This is a result of the first resurrection. They are spiritually alive and their souls reign with Him in heaven. We see this picture in Rev 20, souls living and reigning with Christ in heaven. The only place you find souls are in heaven - as far as we know.
When Christ returns, He returns to reign on this earth, not to go back to heaven again. Such teaching is not taught and cannot be found. He returns, He gathers, He stays. So, those who are alive and remaining, meaning they haven't died, are taken to be with Him in the New Jerusalem.
You are equating the Day of the Lord with the Great Tribulation of Israel? Big error my friend. I find it funny that all of you pre-tribbers think the 70th week of Daniel is the Great Tribulation for one thing. That cracks me up not only because the 70th week was over nearly 2,000 years ago but it is especially funny because you want to make the 70th week (GT) apply to the whole world when Daniel tells us specifically that the 70 weeks were only applicable to his people and for his people to do certain things.
“Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city..."
At least be consistent. Are 70 weeks determined for Daniel's people and Jerusalem or are they determined for the whole planet????? Anyone????
Dan 9:27 is discussing Christ. Christ was the one who confirmed a new covenant with many (the world). You can read about this all over the NT. Christ took away the offerings and sacrifices by being our offering and sacrifice. I thought every Christian understood these basic things? Guess not. Anyway, in the middle of the 70th week, His ministry was cut off at the Cross. So, only 69.5 weeks happened before everything mentioned was accomplished.
...and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate...
Because of their multitudes of sins (abominations) like money changing at the Temple, sex with prostitutes at the temple, robbing from the poor, and of course, killing Christ, HE JESUS will make their temple desolate. It will remain desolate until when?
"...even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
The temple remains desolate until the consuming fire of God's Wrath is poured out on the desolate, who, we are told are Muslims who have been worshiping the wrong god in a place that isn't theirs.
Someone please show me a verse that locates any return of Christ do to anything before the attack on Israel (GT). Don't give me your rationale for why there needs to be one. I want a verse, any verse.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened... and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
The attack against Israel is over. It lasts up to 45 days as Daniel tells us. There is no 7 year tribulation (attack on Israel) taught. The last war lasted just 6 days. After the Tribulation means after. It doesn't mean before. If you alter this, you can alter any other clear teaching. Scary!!
That's the wrath, not the Tribulation. You would be escaping judgment wrath.
When Jesus is in heaven, every believer who has died and will die will be with Jesus in heaven. This is correct. This is a result of the first resurrection. They are spiritually alive and their souls reign with Him in heaven. We see this picture in Rev 20, souls living and reigning with Christ in heaven. The only place you find souls are in heaven - as far as we know.
When Christ returns, He returns to reign on this earth, not to go back to heaven again. Such teaching is not taught and cannot be found. He returns, He gathers, He stays. So, those who are alive and remaining, meaning they haven't died, are taken to be with Him in the New Jerusalem.
You are equating the Day of the Lord with the Great Tribulation of Israel? Big error my friend. I find it funny that all of you pre-tribbers think the 70th week of Daniel is the Great Tribulation for one thing. That cracks me up not only because the 70th week was over nearly 2,000 years ago but it is especially funny because you want to make the 70th week (GT) apply to the whole world when Daniel tells us specifically that the 70 weeks were only applicable to his people and for his people to do certain things.
“Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city..."
At least be consistent. Are 70 weeks determined for Daniel's people and Jerusalem or are they determined for the whole planet????? Anyone????
Dan 9:27 is discussing Christ. Christ was the one who confirmed a new covenant with many (the world). You can read about this all over the NT. Christ took away the offerings and sacrifices by being our offering and sacrifice. I thought every Christian understood these basic things? Guess not. Anyway, in the middle of the 70th week, His ministry was cut off at the Cross. So, only 69.5 weeks happened before everything mentioned was accomplished.
...and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate...
Because of their multitudes of sins (abominations) like money changing at the Temple, sex with prostitutes at the temple, robbing from the poor, and of course, killing Christ, HE JESUS will make their temple desolate. It will remain desolate until when?
"...even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
The temple remains desolate until the consuming fire of God's Wrath is poured out on the desolate, who, we are told are Muslims who have been worshiping the wrong god in a place that isn't theirs.
Someone please show me a verse that locates any return of Christ do to anything before the attack on Israel (GT). Don't give me your rationale for why there needs to be one. I want a verse, any verse.
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“Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city..."
At least be consistent. Are 70 weeks determined for Daniel's people and Jerusalem or are they determined for the whole planet????? Anyone????
Popeye, SbG, AH, Quasar, anyone. Can you explain why you think the 70th week of Daniel is a world-wide Great Tribulation when Daniel says the 70 weeks were only for Daniel's people and Jerusalem? Let's say there was a 2,000 year gap (which isn't taught), where is the teaching that the 70th week suddenly expands to the entire planet? I've been saying the GT is only for Israel and this would tend to back me up although the 70th week is over.
7 weeks (49 years) from the command to rebuild Jerusalem until its built
62 weeks (434 years) until Messiah appears to John the Baptist
1 week (7 years) for Christ's ministry. This week was cut short in the middle by the Cross
7+62+1= 70
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city:
1) to finish the transgression
2) to make an end of sins
3) to make reconciliation for iniquity
4) to bring in everlasting righteousness
5) to seal up the vision and prophecy
6) to anoint the most Holy
I don't see any Great Tribulation mentioned in the above list as things Daniel's people must do within the 70 weeks.
At least be consistent. Are 70 weeks determined for Daniel's people and Jerusalem or are they determined for the whole planet????? Anyone????
Popeye, SbG, AH, Quasar, anyone. Can you explain why you think the 70th week of Daniel is a world-wide Great Tribulation when Daniel says the 70 weeks were only for Daniel's people and Jerusalem? Let's say there was a 2,000 year gap (which isn't taught), where is the teaching that the 70th week suddenly expands to the entire planet? I've been saying the GT is only for Israel and this would tend to back me up although the 70th week is over.
7 weeks (49 years) from the command to rebuild Jerusalem until its built
62 weeks (434 years) until Messiah appears to John the Baptist
1 week (7 years) for Christ's ministry. This week was cut short in the middle by the Cross
7+62+1= 70
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city:
1) to finish the transgression
2) to make an end of sins
3) to make reconciliation for iniquity
4) to bring in everlasting righteousness
5) to seal up the vision and prophecy
6) to anoint the most Holy
I don't see any Great Tribulation mentioned in the above list as things Daniel's people must do within the 70 weeks.
You are correct in that the Greek word "aposasia" is used for meanings other that "to depart" or "departure," depending upon the text in whi8ch it is used. In the case of 2 Thess.2:3, it was used used as such from 325 A.D. until 1,611, when the KJV Scribes changed it to "apostasy," another meaning of "apostasia." When Jerome translated 2 Thess.2:3 into Latin, he used the Latin term, "discessio," which also means "to depart," or "departure," as I previously posted in post #1,127 above, repeated in the following:
>>>In vs 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.
Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].
Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given<<<
The passage Paul wrote from 2 Thess.2:1-8 is bout the coming pre-trib rapture of the Chuch, in which the very first verse is the theme, directly related to 1 Thess.4:17.
There is no option as to both "apostasia" and "discessio" meaning "departure " as used in that text. Confirmed in vs 7, where the "restrainer" is "taken out of the way," the one body of Christ, the Church, who is the human agent for the Holy Spirit on earth. Confirming the meaning in vs 3 to be "departure."
Review the following: The Thomas Ice Collection
Quasar92
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [SUP]2 [/SUP]That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition...
You have a funny way of reading. I read it as:
The coming of Jesus and our gathering will not come until the Man of Sin is revealed.
I also see a warning to not let anyone deceive us concerning this order:
Man of Sin then Jesus returns
Are you trying to deceive us?
The translation history of 2 Thess.2:3 is not just swept under the carpet with attempts to sustain the mistranslation of it as you have been shown previously
>>>:Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].<<<
2 Thess.2:3 originally read as follows from the day Paul wrote it, until the KJV scribes altered it in 1611 A.D:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come the departure, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."
Confirmed in verse 7, where the church departs, in verse 3, it will be taken out of the way in verse 7.
Quasar92
P
I hate to disagree,cause I greatly admire your contributions here,awesome actually,but no,the dead in Christ are NOT raised yet.
IT SAYS "....the dead SHALL rise FIRST,then us alive and remaining....."
We see in heaven spirits with a vague body,and not with glorified bodies.
If what you say is true,we would see a lot of empty caskets.
IT SAYS "....the dead SHALL rise FIRST,then us alive and remaining....."
We see in heaven spirits with a vague body,and not with glorified bodies.
If what you say is true,we would see a lot of empty caskets.
So in your mind the departure means the rapture??? In other words, you think Paul is telling the Thessalonian Christians to NOT BE DISMAYED that they may have missed the Second Coming because the rapture comes first followed by the Man of Sin? Is that your view?
Why would the church be dismayed or troubled by missing the Second Coming if they thought they were going to be raptured BEFORE the second coming? Why the warning by Paul related to a deception about when Christ comes if Christ was to come BEFORE any of the listed events i.e. falling away and Man of Sin.
Sorry, your view fails the sniff test. It makes absolutely no sense.
Why 1 Thess.4:16 is not a resurrection
The statement by Paul in 1 Thess.4:16, "...and the dead in Christ will rise first," does not mean a resurrection is about to occur. Because they were all raised once before, as those who die in Christ, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8, and as FIRSTFRUITS, each in his own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. Who will return with Jesus when He comes with them from heaven, according to vs 14. If Paul meant it was to be a resurrection, he would have documented it as one, which he did not do. If he had, there would be three resurrections rather than the two that are recorded in Rev.20:4-6. Which would then have to be changed from the first and second, to the second and third resurrections. 1 Thess.4:13-18 has nothing whatever to do with the second coming of Christ to the earth, as documented in Mt.24:30; Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14, when the Pre-trib raptured Church RETURNS WITH CHRIST!
But rather than meaning it to be a resurrection, it was the third of Paul's assurances to the Thessalonians, that all the members of their church, who had already died in Christ, would not miss the pre-trib rapture of the Church he was teaching them about.
The first of Paul's three assurances begins in vs 13: "Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep [die], or to grieve like the rest of men [non-believers], who have no hope." [Parenthetics mine].
Then he followed up his first assurance to them that all those who had previously died in Christ would be together with them at the rapture of the Church in the very next verse [14]: "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him." Revealing to them, that Christ had previously raised them all once before, as documented in 2 Cor.5:6-8, and had been in heaven with Him ever since. Since all the dead in Christ have been raised once before, there is no reason for them having to be raised a second time. Confirming their status as FIRSTFRUITS, raised each in his own order, according to 1 Cor.15:23.
There will not be any resurrected then, because all their dead in Christ had already been raised once before, in their spiritual bodies [As recorded in 1 Cor.15:44], following the death of their bodies, when they immediately went to be with Christ in heaven. Confirming Ecc.12:7 as well as 2 Cor.5:6-8. Confirmed in 1 Thes.4:14, saying they are returning with Christ, when He returns, from heaven with them. Therefore, when Jesus appears in the clouds of the sky for all those who belong to Him left here on earth alive, they will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air [together with those who previously died in Him, who are already there].
The second of Paul's three assurances to the Thessalonians, was that their dead in Christ will not miss the rapture of the Church is in vs 15, which states: "According to the Lord's own word [Recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are left [Believers] till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep [Died]." Of course not! Because they will have already been raised once before, and gone to be with the Lord in heaven in their spiritual bodies, and then return with Him when He comes from heaven! They certainly do not need a resurrection, because they are going to the spiritual world in heaven. In contrast to the glorified physical bodies that will be necessary at the time of the resurrection documented in Rev.20:4 and 6. Because they are to be priests of God and rule with Jesus for 1,000 years right here on the earth, in a human environment! [Parenthetics mine].
The third and final assurance Paul wrote in vs 16, the subject of this thread, has already been addressed above.
There is also the false view by those, who attempt to make 1 Thes.4:16-17 a reference to the first resurrection in Rev.20:4 and 6, at the second coming of Christ, which does not take place until seven years later. Which is not possible, because after we [All believers] have been CAUGHT UP to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky, we will go to be with our Father in heaven, as Jesus promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28. Seven years after that, we will all return with Christ, from heaven, at His second coming to the earth, as recorded in Rev.19:14, Zech.14:4-5 and in Jude 14.
Nowhere in the Bible is there a single passage of anyone called up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky, when He returns in His second coming to the earth! Because the first of many things He will do, is in fighting the Antichrist, the false prophet and their ten nations allied to them, in the battle of Armageddon and defeating them, the forces of evil, according to Rev.19:11-20. Then in setting up His Millennial Kingdom here on the earth, according to Rev.20:4 and 6. He does not return to heaven from that time on until the present heaven and earth is destroyed and a new heaven and earth is created by God in Rev.21:1.
The precise timing of the pre-trib rapture of the Church is recorded in 2 Thes.2:1-8, in which the theme of it begins in the first verse: Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our being gathered to Him..., which is a clear reference to 1 Thes.4:17, where Paul stated that we will all be caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky.
In 2 Thess.2:3 he made this statement according to the original translation: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, from vs 2, the seven year tribulation] will not come until the apostasiaGreek term meaning departure [When we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky] occurs [first] and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction." The same vile person in vs 4 who abominates the temple of God and sets himself up as God.
Translation History of apostasia and Discessio:
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384 A.D.); Tyndale Bible (1526 A.D.); Coverdale Bible (1535 A.D.); Cranmer Bible (1539 A.D.); Breeches Bible (1576 A.D.); Beza Bible (1583 A.D.); Geneva Bible (1608 A.D.) .[5] This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' " Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of " departure" in 1611 A.D.?
From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, who is all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27 and the abomination of desolation. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, which triggers the seven year tribulation, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.
There is no resemblance of Mt.24:30-31, or in any of the counterparts in Mk.13 and Lk.21 of the second coming of Christ, to the earth, to that of the pre-trib rapture of the Church, when Jesus gathers us all into the clouds of the sky and takes us from there to our Father in heaven, according to as Jesus, in Jn.14:2-4 and 28. And Paul in 1 Thes.4:14-18; 2 Thes.2:1-8. Confirming Dan.9:27. [The latter confirms who the antichrist is, his triggering the 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation and the timing of the pre-trib rapture of the Church as confirmed by Paul in 2 Thes.2:1-8].
In Mt.24:30-31, Jesus returns in His second coming to the earth for a number of reasons [to fight the battle of armageddon and defeat the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten nation confederation allied to them, in Rev.19:17-20. He does not gather anyone to Himself in the clouds of the sky, nor does He return to heaven with them!
But rather, to save the remnant of Israel, in Zech.14, to throw Satan into the Abyss for 1,000 years, in Rev.20:1-3, to administer to the first resurrection, in Rev.20:4 and 6], and to establish His 1,000 year reign on the earth.
There are no saints meeting Him in the clouds of the sky, nor does He return to heaven with the saints to our Father in heaven as He promises us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28. In addition to the fact the raptured saints are seen returning with Jesus and His angels [From Mt.24:30] in His second coming to the earth in Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14, in His armies from heaven, ridiing white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. ["Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints," Rev.19:8 NIV].
The Scriptures clearly teach there is going to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church!
All parenthetics mine.
Quasar92