T
Tintin
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Absolutely. If Jesus Christ isn't our Kinsman-Redeemer, there's no good news and therefore, no hope.
Did Jesus consider himself God?
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Absolutely. If Jesus Christ isn't our Kinsman-Redeemer, there's no good news and therefore, no hope.
Okay look for any prayer that you would tell someone to use that wanted to accept Jesus into their heart as their lord and savior and if that prayer says that Jesus was not the Son of God and that he was God please let me know
John 14: KJV
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
I am sorry RobbyEarl, I did not see this post. Jesus is our Lord and Savior of Salvation. We accept him into our hearts by confessing to God that we believe Jesus, the Son of God, is our Lord and Savior and that he died on the cross for us so that our sins may be forgiven.
You repent your sins to Jesus but you pray to GOD. That's how I see it. I truly believe that God has not been hearing all of our prayers for this reason and satan has a hand in it. Jesus is my Lord and Savior and will be God on Earth when he returns but at this late hour under all of this persecution across the globe by the "hidden hand", with corrupt governments and laws and starvation and homelessness and despair and pending destruction... something is wrong. I am not saying forget about the New Testament by any means, I am saying look at the facts. For the Israelite's the numbers were far fewer and he took them out of Egypt once they came back from being "lost". They gave up all their own farms and ways of self sustained living which went on for hundreds of years because Egypt enticed them with housing and work in the cities. Then they became slaves to them because they charged taxes to live and work in their cities and made it impossible for them to ever pay their debts. Sound familiar? He heard their cries but here and now we have nothing. He seems absent but he is not. He does not want us to suffer, He does not want us to be oppressed. God unites! Satan divides!!! God saves! Satan destroys!!! What is happening in the world today? Who's hand is at work???
[for me anyway] Christ Himself tells us that He is the Son of God (Mark 14:61-62) and (John 10:36). And because He was the Messiah, God with us in the flesh, that is why He is equal unto the Father and He and the Father are one in unity of purpose. For me we must abide to what He says about Himself, and what God the Father say about Him; both tell us exactly that Jesus is the Son, and we need not any further witness, especially from the wise and prudent.
Ok thomas, I understand what your saying but your explanation is based on how you view things and not on what the Bible specfically teaches as I pointed out in my post regarding Philippians 2. And yes, it is good for you to think and reason in logical terms. In fact, God is a logical God and at times He is a-logical which means He goes beyond logic.
You also said, "I'll keep it at the human level" and then you began to explain how you "think" the Father as a being is the Divine Lake etc. I'm not one that uses "metaphors" but since you brought up the lake is water how about looking at it from the following perspective? Water can take three forms or states, ice, liquid and steam and some use this example to describe the Trinity.
I also have to take issue when you said this: "But I certainly believe that there was enough of God's Divine Spirit in Christ for him to say he was God." Remember, Jesus Christ was functioning as a fully contingent human being and He was filled with the Holy Spirit without meansure. This has nothing to do with Him having enough of God's Divine Spirit for Him to say He was God. There was a reason why Jesus Christ did "NOT" going around the landscape saying, "I am God?"
He proved He was God by His works and the witness of His Father. Jesus wanted us to come to that conclusion without Him saying "I am God." As it is, people then and now do not believe He was God in flesh so even if He had come out and point blank claim "I am God" they still would not believe Him. Plus the fact that if He would have made that direct claim it would be taken by the Jews that there is more than one God.
My suggestion to you is not to "overthink" things and read the Scritptures for what they say and teach. Reason things out and ask yourself questions like, "Why did Jesus say this or why did Jesus do that, what was His purpose?" Look up words as to how they are used in "CONTEXT?"
Let me give you an example of what I mean. It says at Philippians 2:12, "So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION with fear and trembling." Just about everybody takes this verse and they "assume" Paul is talking about salvation proper or as being saved. That is not what Paul is saying. Paul is saying for the Philippians to "work out the solution or the deliverance" of your problems.
Remember, my first post to you was Philippians 2 and how the Apostle Paul used Jesus Christ who always existed in the form of God but humbled Himself and took the form of a bond-servant. Remeber also why Paul was writing to them? It is summed up at vs 3, "Do nothing from selfishness of empty conceit but regard others as more imporatant than yourself." So, this is the occasion of why Paul said to "'work out your salvation." Hoep this helps!
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
I believe that we must confess that Jesus was and is fully God, else the soul cleansing blood of the Lamb will avail us nothing. We must confess that the Blood was from The Perfect Lamb. Only God is perfect.
The Holy Spirit dwelling within a Christian is not some mystical divine droplet of energy that can be found in all living things. The Holy Spirit is a person; the third person in the Trinity.
You cannot base your belief on your engineering sense of logistics. The just shall live by faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God. The things of the Spirit are spiritual. The spiritual realm transcends the physical. It is more real than the physical because it is, among other things, eternal.
The Holy Spirit dwelling within a Christian is not some mystical divine droplet of energy that can be found in all living things. The Holy Spirit is a person; the third person in the Trinity.
You cannot base your belief on your engineering sense of logistics. The just shall live by faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God. The things of the Spirit are spiritual. The spiritual realm transcends the physical. It is more real than the physical because it is, among other things, eternal.
Ok thomas, I understand what your saying but your explanation is based on how you view things and not on what the Bible specfically teaches as I pointed out in my post regarding Philippians 2. And yes, it is good for you to think and reason in logical terms. In fact, God is a logical God and at times He is a-logical which means He goes beyond logic.
You also said, "I'll keep it at the human level" and then you began to explain how you "think" the Father as a being is the Divine Lake etc. I'm not one that uses "metaphors" but since you brought up the lake is water how about looking at it from the following perspective? Water can take three forms or states, ice, liquid and steam and some use this example to describe the Trinity.
I also have to take issue when you said this: "But I certainly believe that there was enough of God's Divine Spirit in Christ for him to say he was God." Remember, Jesus Christ was functioning as a fully contingent human being and He was filled with the Holy Spirit without meansure. This has nothing to do with Him having enough of God's Divine Spirit for Him to say He was God. There was a reason why Jesus Christ did "NOT" going around the landscape saying, "I am God?"
He proved He was God by His works and the witness of His Father. Jesus wanted us to come to that conclusion without Him saying "I am God." As it is, people then and now do not believe He was God in flesh so even if He had come out and point blank claim "I am God" they still would not believe Him. Plus the fact that if He would have made that direct claim it would be taken by the Jews that there is more than one God.
My suggestion to you is not to "overthink" things and read the Scritptures for what they say and teach. Reason things out and ask yourself questions like, "Why did Jesus say this or why did Jesus do that, what was His purpose?" Look up words as to how they are used in "CONTEXT?"
Let me give you an example of what I mean. It says at Philippians 2:12, "So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION with fear and trembling." Just about everybody takes this verse and they "assume" Paul is talking about salvation proper or as being saved. That is not what Paul is saying. Paul is saying for the Philippians to "work out the solution or the deliverance" of your problems.
Remember, my first post to you was Philippians 2 and how the Apostle Paul used Jesus Christ who always existed in the form of God but humbled Himself and took the form of a bond-servant. Remeber also why Paul was writing to them? It is summed up at vs 3, "Do nothing from selfishness of empty conceit but regard others as more imporatant than yourself." So, this is the occasion of why Paul said to "'work out your salvation." Hoep this helps!
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Ok I hear you we can agree to disagree but we are very close in either respect. : ) I am not claiming to know how it works, I was just one example of how I could envision it on my own. Let's just say Jesus is God. Many names for One being. This still doesn't explain the Rev 1 and Rev 22 issue or the many Prayers for Forgiveness that start with "Dear God, I accept that Jesus was Your Son and that You raised him from the dead... etc, etc " and then we turn around and pray to Jesus for things other than forgiveness. That's just me.
The whole point is not who you pray to (GOD, JESUS, LORD, etc...) as long as you are only praying to THE ONE God. Please ask Him OFTEN to forgive your sins and then if you could, please ask Him OFTEN to DESTROY OUR OPPRESSORS and not the people being oppressed. I can't change anyone's beliefs or why they believe what they believe, heck I can't even get a group of 3 people to agree on a place to have lunch lol.
The second point I was trying to make is that God's (Jesus's if you prefer) Laws are the only laws permitted by the Bible. Man's laws mean ZIP to GOD. It's not God's Law's that have us in the situation for His Law's are perfect. Here in the U.S. and in many parts of the world, I see division, not unity and when I see that,I see satan's hand.
Not meaning to get political (and this is the only time I will ever bring up politics) but... after spending all that time, effort, and resources attempting to secure your rights and freedoms under the man-made constitution, the bottom line at the end of the day is: YOU ARE NOT EVEN A PARTY TO THE CONSTITUTION! It is a contract between: the States, the founders, and the king of England. The constitution itself was not signed by any human, it was only signed "In witness" on behalf of the States. That's like saying a notary republic is also bound to whatever you sign in front of them. Since you are not a party to that contract, then you can't possibly have ANY rights under that contract. Just exactly WHO are the "We the People of the United States" that the constitution refers to who formed the "Union"? Most patriots jump to the conclusion that it includes every American "Sovereign" Citizen but where in the document is the term defined, which could support that conclusion? It doesn't really say. How many times have you seen someone in court attempt to use the Constitution and then the Judge tells him he can't. It is because you are not a party to it. We are SLAVES.
So this is my issue that I see, here we sit at the edge of Armageddon and we are here bickering back and forth over what's green and what's purple because of man made laws that we are not even bound to and the only laws we are bound to (HIS LAWS) are being reduced to "Oh well, as long as I am saved by Grace that's all that matters". Let's look at Revelations where it says only 144,000 people will be saved in the end of it all. That's out of what 7.4 billion (7,400,000,000 people)? Just how saved are you and I?
What defenses do we have? Repent and Pray now and often We need an ARMY OF PRAYERS.
AND although I know the majority of the planet thinks that this is not required but if you aren't offended:
Matthew 6
5 And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. Truly I tell you, they already have their reward. 6 But when you pray, go into your inner room, shut your door, and pray to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not babble on like pagans, for they think that by their many words they will be heard.…
God wrote these words: “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work. … For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is: … wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it” (Exodus 20:8–11).
You do what you believe, I am not taking my chances. It changed my life and if you only try it once and don't see HIS signs throughout the day, then call me a liar. I believe HE hears us MORE on this day than any other. If you see a Bluebird today, I've been praying to God to send one to you as a sign. Not that it has any significance if you see them often, but if you don't and find it unusual maybe just maybe you ought to try it : )
God Bless and keep us all safe in Jesus's Name!
Are you a Jehovah's Witness? I ask because much of the confusion regarding the one hundred
and forty four thousand is a result of the false doctrine of the Jehovah's Witnesses. And also
because you seem to consistently deny the Divinity of Jesus Christ, which they do as well.
and forty four thousand is a result of the false doctrine of the Jehovah's Witnesses. And also
because you seem to consistently deny the Divinity of Jesus Christ, which they do as well.
No lol, I'm not Jehovah's Witness. And I do believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who is divine. And if Jesus Christ were standing here in front of me right now telling me he was God, since his purpose and God's purpose are one in the same, I would definitely believe that and I do believe that. If God is Divine, surely the Son must be. What no one seems to be able to answer is why does the Angel in Revelations 1 in the section entitled John's vision of Christ, tell John in Revelations 22 not to worship him but to worship God. The Father and Son on same plane, at the same time and the Son of God, Jesus Christ, tells John not to worship him but to worship God.
All I'm doing is quoting the Bible.
Revelations 14 in KJB is where the 144,000 comes from.
Where does it speak of an angel in Reve 1? The One Who spoke there is greater than the angels. The angel who asked not to be worshipped in chapter 22 IS an angel. You are confused
Jesus says in Rev 22 'I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last'. Compare Rev 1.8
This is God the eternal Son.
Revelations 22
8 And I am John, the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had shown me these things. 9 But he said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God!”[/quote]
One of the angels appointed to show John the visions. The Son of Man is NEVER called an angel
The Father is the whole lake, and so is the Son. Neither is a divine droplet. The Son has all the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form. You are confusing the use of human terminology. Any human illustration is inadequate to explain God.,
You are wildly astray. God the Father NEVER vacated His throne. Nor did the Son,
Do you mean the Spirit of the Father or the Spirit of the Son? Jesus was FULLY God.
He could have left the human body without dying. He CHOSE to die for us.
your logic is human logic. Divine logic is very different.
Originally Posted by valiantThe Son of Man is NEVER called an angel
I meant in the Scriptures.
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[h=1]Revelation 1New International Version (NIV)[/h][h=3]17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.[/h]Who was this in bold underline?
E
eph610
Guest
Phil 2.1-11 says
Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, [SUP]2 [/SUP]make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; [SUP]4 [/SUP]do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, [SUP]6 [/SUP]who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, [SUP]7 [/SUP]but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, [SUP]10 [/SUP]so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, [SUP]11 [/SUP]and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
This tells us that Jesus laid down his God powers while he was on earth......but wait he was God & Man on earth, but that is not what the above scripture says....
So how did Jesus heal, deliver, demonstrate power and perform miracles if he was not GOD on earth!?!?!
Acts 10.38
You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.
Folks this is a deep seldom taught Bible truth, but Jesus did not heal, deliver, demonstrate power and perform miracles on earth because he was God or even the SON of God...he did them because he was anointed with the Holy Ghost and with power....
Jesus was our example for doing it down here, because the Kingdom of God is not here or there, but it is within you[Luke 17.21]
If God anoints us with the Holy Ghost and Power, then we will do the 5 things Jesus did and Jesus said we would do them even greater than he did, because he went to the Father [John 14.12]
Those 5 things are:
Preach
Teach
Heal
Deliver
Demonstrate the Kingdom of Heaven
Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, [SUP]2 [/SUP]make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; [SUP]4 [/SUP]do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, [SUP]6 [/SUP]who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, [SUP]7 [/SUP]but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, [SUP]10 [/SUP]so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, [SUP]11 [/SUP]and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
This tells us that Jesus laid down his God powers while he was on earth......but wait he was God & Man on earth, but that is not what the above scripture says....
So how did Jesus heal, deliver, demonstrate power and perform miracles if he was not GOD on earth!?!?!
Acts 10.38
You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.
Folks this is a deep seldom taught Bible truth, but Jesus did not heal, deliver, demonstrate power and perform miracles on earth because he was God or even the SON of God...he did them because he was anointed with the Holy Ghost and with power....
Jesus was our example for doing it down here, because the Kingdom of God is not here or there, but it is within you[Luke 17.21]
If God anoints us with the Holy Ghost and Power, then we will do the 5 things Jesus did and Jesus said we would do them even greater than he did, because he went to the Father [John 14.12]
Those 5 things are:
Preach
Teach
Heal
Deliver
Demonstrate the Kingdom of Heaven
Actually I just came across that as well - didn't dig into it very much yet though.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, [SUP]10 [/SUP]so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, [SUP]11 [/SUP]and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
I really like that... it rings true in my heart. It agrees with prayers that we make to God telling Him that we accept Jesus Christ as His only Son. I can pray and worship in the name of God or Jesus but personally, If I am repenting I would repent to Jesus Christ for forgiveness of my sins so that my prayers can be heard and answered.
Also, I think I did mess up my reading on the Revelations thing though. From one section to another the point of view of the writer changes and I had to go back several times to find out where I missed it. I was trying to find who mentioned that two me ( thank you to whomever that was : ) )
It seems like your a little mixed up thomas? You said this: " I can pray and worship in the name of God or Jesus but personally, If I am repenting I would repent to Jesus Christ for forgiveness of my sins so that my prayers can be heard and answered." When you first become a Christian your sins are forgiven past, present and future on the basis of Jesus Christ dying on the cross for your sins. In fact, God says He does not remember your sins, that is your past sins.
After your a Christian and you sin you can pray to God or Jesus Christ for that matter and He forgives you. This is the point of 1 John chapter 2. Now notice what 1 John 3:8 states, "No one who is born of God "practices" sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." In other words, to be sure we still commit sin but as a Christian we are not to make sin a regular practice in our lives. In fact, if you don't "HATE" sin then there is something wrong with your Christianity.
On another note the disciples ask Jesus how to pray at Matthew 6:9 but notice vs12. "And forgive us our sins." Jesus is saying that God the Father forgive our sins. Now look at Acts 7:59,60, and notice who Stephen is praying to? "And they went on stoning Stephen as he called upon the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" vs60, And falling to his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" And having said this, he fell asleep/died."
My point is the fact that praying to God the Father or to Jesus is praying to the same one being of God.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto