Ask a "Messianic/Hebrew Rooter" (AMA)

[eternally-gratefull]

Yeah btw welcome back mike. Almost as if you never left.

Did you come up with an answer to my question yet?

Thats explains it..lol Thanks

 

[KohenMatt]

It's best to go by the Bible over traditions of man. Hebrew Roots folks have a good understanding of scripture, history and tradition that generally moves well beyond a denominational or parochial understanding. They have an excellent hermeneutical and exegetical approach. Yet they appear to cling to a kabbalistic root rather than messianic fruit.

I agree completely.

It is new to me to see the mixing of terms - Hebrew Roots with Messianic Judaism. Is Jesus the messiah having fulfilled and explained all things in the Old Testament and by thus, creating a New Testament

I say yes, as I believe a majority of Spirit-filled Messianic/HRM folks do.

- or - are the experts in the Old Testament teachings and traditions still looking for a different Messiah? Is Joshua/Yeshua the messiah or is Jesus The Way?

Many are, although I would say a good portion of them aren't necessarily experts of the OT, but folks from a more Judaic background.

 

[KohenMatt]

Warning though: some here will try to get you banned, quickly, if you say you are Hebrew Roots.

Not necessarily. I've been around for ~3 years, and I haven't been banned (yet.)

I think it's a matter of how you come across while supporting and teaching HRM stuff. Those who have been judgmental and bashing those who don't believe as they do have been removed. Sadly, I've seen several of my Brothers and Sisters removed over the years because they focused more on the judgement than the dialogue. I'm always trying to be mindful of that distinction.

 

[gb9]

hey matt, just curious as to what you think of the mount of transfiguration experience, and how that fits your belief system? I would appreciate your answer, if you would.

 

[KohenMatt]

Our youth have a lot to teach us. However, at 16 would you feel qualified to teach a class on Scriptures?

I know I wouldn't.

Jesus didn't start His earthly ministry until He was 30.

Pointing out the inconsistency of his story and the unlikelyness of its validness, is an observation. If he is telling the truth, then he was attending a church with a pastor that thought a 16 year old was more qualified then him or any other member to teach scriptures....that in itself is telling,

I don't know enough about him to agree with or not, but,

1 Samuel 16:7
"But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

 

[KohenMatt]

hey matt, just curious as to what you think of the mount of transfiguration experience, and how that fits your belief system? I would appreciate your answer, if you would.

Can you narrow your question down a little as to what I believe about the transfiguration? There's A LOT of mean in those 8 verses!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1st off. Could you please make smaller responses. Trying to respond to a large post such as this is quite difficult. ad could be quite lengthy If you want to make small point, yet each point is someone long, I suggest making a new post for each point.

Brother, respectfully, if you or any other individual truly study Galatians you would see that you are misinterpreting the words of Paul. Causing a Paradox due to your own misunderstandings of Paul. Paul never taught that that the Torah(Law) was only for the Jews. How do I know this? Because if he did he would be liar. The Law was not only for the Tribe of Judah, it was for all 12 Tribes of Israel + those who sojourn among them. The Law is not Jewish. The Law is Holy and Righteous and according to Paul in 1 Timothy is good for teaching and training in righteousness.

my first response to this is Paul was telling timothy about all scripture. to me, it is not just the law. To make this mean the law is to misinterpret paul.

my second response is that while the law has a purpose. We must not go beyond that purpose. The law can not instruct you in righteousness, All it can do is show you how unrighteous you are. The law was not given to make you understand how to be righteous being.. it was given so you could understand you are condemned, and need Christ (the law brings a curse)

Galatians proves my beliefs.

Actually no, I see Galations saying quite the opposite, This is what I see.

Galations said

1. the law was given so sin may be exposed and every mouth shut.
2. The law was a tutor to lead a person to Christ, But after a person has come to christ, the tutor has done its job.
3. The law brings curse and wrath, because whoever does not confirm and obey perfectly every word is cursed, and under the wrath of God. (as james said, even the smallest of sins, if committed, would make us guilty of the law. and under Gods wrath and condemnation.
4. That if you are going to follow one aspect of the law (ie circummcision or any of the other traditions) you are indebted to keep every but of it perfectly. Because that is Gods standard.
5. That paul had to confront peter face to face and call him out for following law. and putting that ahead of loving others.
6. That I have through the law died (it condemned me to death) so that I might live to God.
7. That we did not recieve the spirit of salvation by the works of the law. But by the hearing of faith. And if after having come to faith, we try to go back to law. We are fools (pauls words not mine)
8, That even the miracles being performed by the men of God through the spirit, it was not done by the law. but by faith.
9. The inheritance for jewd even is not of the law. but of faith (see abraham as an example)


I can go on and on, But I think we have enough here to show what Paul said in galations. and where he was headed.


I will cut my response here so as not to be too lengthy. and continue in another post.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In the case of Acts 15, again, you are misunderstanding what is written. Due to what you have been taught previously about the Torah and your false understanding of Paul as well as Peter.

Warning: This will be a long answer in order to address all misunderstandings you and others may have.

Acts 15:19-22 "Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren."​

Hmmm. This passage seems to show there are only four rules given to Gentiles coming into the faith. While the Torah wasn't forced on Gentiles all at once, it was understood they would learn it gradually over time, hearing it each week in the synagogues. For that matter, Torah wasn't forced on Israel in a day either -- they too received it over time.

Acts 15:21 "For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day."​

Christians generally ignore this verse in the passage because the ramifications are obvious: What has Torah being taught each week in synagogues have to do with Gentile believers? Why is it being mentioned here along with the 'four laws'? Because the Gentiles were to *learn Torah* each week in the synagogues! They are being started off on these four laws so they would have the bare basics to begin fellowshiping with their Jewish brethren and they would learn the rest of Torah each Sabbath at synagogue. Only after pointing out the Gentiles would learn Torah weekly "did it please the apostles and elders" (vs 22) to send this letter out to the various churches.

Acts 15:5-11 "But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"​

Rather than isolate one verse alone and build on that, one must look at the whole chapter. Only in proper context will the meaning become clear. 1) What group was demanding conversion by circumcision and Torah observance? 2) How was the "Torah of Moses" defined by the group demanding it? 3) What was the apostle's response to *this particular group*'s demand and why? 4) What does other scripture teach regarding observance for believers (Gentile and Jewish)? Only after answering these questions can one arrive at what this passage is really teaching.

It was understood by all the apostles that God's Torah never changed or was replaced. We know this from the teachings of Yeshua -- heaven and earth will pass away before one yod or stroke from written Torah will (Matt 5:17,18). We also know that Yeshua considered the "traditions of man" not equal to written Torah, in fact, sometimes the oral tradition violated the written Torah (Mark 7:9). The apostles upheld written Torah but frowned on the legalism of oral law. So, who is making the demands in Acts 15:5? The *Pharisees* are. So, Acts 15 is basically dealing with whether Gentiles needed to convert according to Pharisaic tradition; that is, become proselytes to Pharisaic Judaism.

We know Gentiles could be saved without becoming proselytes --- the believing of Cornelius and his family proves this. Cornelius was a God-fearer, a 'ger'/righteous Gentile, one who had believed in the God of Israel but had not actually undergone the conversion rituals to become a proselyte. Now, from a 20th century perspective, circumcision may seem to some as only one law out of many in Torah. But from the 1st century perspective, circumcision was the means of making a proselyte. That is why circumcision is being singled out as a demand apart from its inclusion in the Torah. Torah-observance in general isn't the issue -- conversion is. Notice the Pharisaic complaint wasn't "we demand they eat kosher and keep the Law of Moses" or "we demand they observe the Sabbath and keep the Law of Moses." Both these would be ridiculously redundant since Law of Moses already included both of these individual laws. No, circumcision is singled out not as merely '1 of the 613 laws' but instead as the means of making a proselyte to Pharisaic Judaism.

ok I will stop here. Going to the OT to try to explain this is not going to help. Of course the gentile was to adhere to the law also. God was dealing through mankind through the law. The law was given, as paul said,

Gal 3
[SUP]19 [/SUP]What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

This would go for all people. whether you were a jew or gentile. CHrist had not come yet, and when he would come, All people of the world through the law could have an opportunity to come to faith.

Because the law pointed to Christ.

how?

Gal 3: [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Circumcision had become a conversion ritual by the Pharisees just as baptism is often misused today as a means of "joining a particular church." If I refuse to be baptised in the Morman church, surely you'd see mine is a rejection of Mormanism -- NOT baptism itself! So the apostles reject this Pharisaic demand that Gentiles undergo the Pharisaic circumcision. Theirs was *not* a rejection of circumcision or Torah, but a rejection instead of Pharisaic conversion rituals. The gospel was being received by Gentiles *without* them becoming proselytes -- so this conversion by circumcision wasn't required. Note that God "made no distinction between us and them" (Acts 15:9) to show G-d was accepting Gentiles *without* them converting first.

"Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" Acts 15:7-11​

A few notes.

As paul said, Paul was saved BEFORE he was circumcised.

The issue wth the jews was they were forcing people to be circumcised to be saved, Which was not the example of Abraham, nor was it even required to be saved. Thats why paul charged them with teaching a different gospel

It was a sign of the covenant between God and abraham, And all who wanted to be a part of this covenant went through this ceremony,

More importanly, it was a teaching tool. Just like baptism is, (yet people say we MUST be baptised to be saved, which is just as bad as the pharisee in pauls day)

A gentile who does not get circumcised is no less saved than a jew r gentile that was circumcised, I pray you understand and believe this (and they are not in sin either)

Now Peter argued against this attempt of the Pharisees to put a yoke on the new believers, a yoke neither they nor their fathers could bear; this yoke is the Pharisaic oral tradition. Yeshua taught:

"The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers." Matt 23:2-4

Note the warning a few verses later:

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." Matt 23:15​

Note that oral tradition is a burden -- man attempts to enslave others; but God's Way is freedom. Yeshua proclaimed:

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach freedom to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord." Luke 4:18,19 (Isaiah 61:1)​

No I can not agree The whole law is burdensom, No one but Christ ever kept it, Even jesus said when he was called good. "Who is good but God"

Gods standard is perfection. That is what is required, that is why it is such a burden, BECAUSE NO ONE CAN DO IT.

​

again to lengthy,, Let start here, and get to the rest later.

but at least, thank you for sharing what you believe, I pray we can discuss it openly and not with hate.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Thank you for your question.
I fear your question illustrates a predisposed mindset of Dispensationalism, which I would disagree with, theologically and scripturally.

To directly answer your question: The people of God, those called by HIS name, have always been commanded and expected to keep HIS commandments, as is the whole duty of man.

See Leviticus 24:22, Numbers 15: 15-16, Exodus 12:49, Jeremiah 31:30-33, John 14:15,23, Ecclesiastes 12:13, 1 John 2:4-6, 1 Peter 2:21, 1 John 5:3.

How did God (Jesus) say this was accomplished?

By following the law of moses?

Or by following the law of Love?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

the above post, #26, is found VERBATIM

RIGHT HERE

so while the op would seem to want to impress us with all his many many years of study and deep prayer, he just copy/pasted his post

irregardless, the title of the article is Should Gentiles Follow Torah

through manipulation and really really bad exegesis, these folks seek to tell us that Paul did not mean what we think he means

and oh goody...he is here to straighten us all out

......and there you have it, straight from the Torah observant Messianic Judaism

Gentiles cannot and do not become Jewish

ok that is sad, We do not even have the persons honest answer, but a cut and paste. And to think I just gave some time responding.. Glad I cut it short.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There are more than 10 commandments, brother.

How many did Christ say we could obey, and in doing this we could obey all of them? (and I am not talking about the 600 and some given by the law. But all of them. which would probably come to well over 1000)

 

[gb9]

hey matt, just curious as to what you think of the mount of transfiguration experience, and how that fits your belief system? I would appreciate your answer, if you would.

I mean, as far as God the Father coming down, in the presence of Moses ( the law ) and Elijah ( the prophets ) and saying, about Jesus, hear Him, thus elevating Christ's words above those.

 

[KohenMatt]

hey matt, just curious as to what you think of the mount of transfiguration experience, and how that fits your belief system? I would appreciate your answer, if you would.

I mean, as far as God the Father coming down, in the presence of Moses ( the law ) and Elijah ( the prophets ) and saying, about Jesus, hear Him, thus elevating Christ's words above those.

I don't know that God was necessarily elevating Jesus' words above the other 2 here (at least according to this passage. Although we do know He is superior over them.) I think God is telling the disciples that if they believed that Moses and Elijah were from God (which was their foundation thus far,) this man Jesus was from God as well, just like those 2. He then concludes that they should listen to Jesus because He IS God's Son. Jesus was the only one left from the transfiguration, so He is now the one they should listen to.

Not sure if that's helpful.

 

[Connock]

well yes...I do my homework

but you did not answer if you are also Hebrew Roots

certainly no follower of Christ would observe God as very picky?

God is way more than very picky

God, is HOLY

He did create us in His image, but that image is marred, cracked and our desire to be a god in our own eyes is one of the strongest drives in human nature

God is holy...we, are not and no amount of trying to keep the commandments is going to appease God's wrath

do you know what does actually appease God's wrath?

Dear Laruen, I'm afraid you might have lifted those words out of context, cast them into a different one, and are asserting something unintended (every husband in the world knows what I am describing). My words were written in a different thread, on a different topic. But since you ask, I will assume good faith, and explain:

FWIW, here are my words (they did not convey when I quoted you quoting me):

God is very picky about observing appointed times (Mo'ed'im). Dismiss this at your peril.

​

This was written not in the present context of Mosaic Law, but rather in the context of the true dates of Jesus' birth, Crucifixion and Resurrection. (not the Mosaic feast days) The title of that thread is "December 25". It's there for anyone to check for themselves.

The word "picky" in the sense of "insistent" is simply shorthand for God's "demonstrated penchant for absolute chronological precision". (ref. Ex 12:41 "after exactly 430 years to the very day", and several passages in Dan, Jer, Eze). It is an observation on the (eternal) nature of God, not on the Mosaic feast days. We may be free to ignore Mosaic Law, but we are not free to ignore God's eternal nature.

The word "Mo'ed'im" is included as a courtesy to anyone wishing to Google a useful keyword on the subject. As research becomes more and more internet-based, such keywords (useful, unambiguous ones) are often noted for this purpose.

Dearest Lauren, (and a few others, not to just single you out) please be careful. Many will not agree with you on everything--even people in your own congregation. We are told to examine all ideas "carefully" (1 Thess. 5:21) using reason. Ad hominem (personal) attack is not only a logical fallacy (if a 19yo reads the periodic table of the elements, would you disbelieve him?), but is also extremely dangerous. The job of accusing our brothers and sisters is already occupied, and anyone engaging in this activity must be very careful to avoid being co-opted by that influence.

 

[LaurenTM]

ok that is sad, We do not even have the persons honest answer, but a cut and paste. And to think I just gave some time responding.. Glad I cut it short.

yeah...the long and the short of it?

trying to reason with these folks, is like trying to jump off the earth

gravity will pull you back every time

no matter that the NT says the OPPOSITE of what rooters and law keepers post, the same response will be engendered

the only thing accomplished, is you sharpen your own knowledge..not a bad thing

but otherwise?

gravity...

 

[eph610]

Paula White is now a practicing Hebrew Roots Movement follower

 

[LaurenTM]

Dear Laruen, I'm afraid you might have lifted those words out of context, cast them into a different one, and are asserting something unintended (every husband in the world knows what I am describing). My words were written in a different thread, on a different topic. But since you ask, I will assume good faith, and explain:

hmmm...Lar-uen...am I am from Krpton? note to self...look for cape in cupboard later


does God as husband share your sneaky attempt at slighting me because I am a woman? actually, you are lumping all men together and assuming they are all like you...they are not. are you different from thread to thread or do we get a picture of who you really are? folks will tell you I am me...some might not like me, but I am me from thread to thread

FWIW, here are my words (they did not convey when I quoted you quoting me):
God is very picky about observing appointed times (Mo'ed'im). Dismiss this at your peril.


This was written not in the present context of Mosaic Law, but rather in the context of the true datesof Jesus' birth, Crucifixion and Resurrection. (not the Mosaic feast days) The title of that thread is "December 25". It's there for anyone to check for themselves.


The word "picky" in the sense of "insistent" is simply shorthand for God's "demonstrated penchant for absolute chronological precision". (ref. Ex 12:41 "after exactly 430 years to the very day", and several passages in Dan, Jer, Eze). It is an observation on the (eternal) nature of God, not on the Mosaic feast days. We may be free to ignore Mosaic Law, but we are not free to ignore God's eternal nature.

ok...lots of fluff here and smokescreeing going on...


love the intro and underhanded aspersions that I may be ignoring God's eternal nature after I pointed out that He alone is holy...lots of grease in your response but I don't slide too well in a direction someone tries to force me into...ask my husband LOL!

The word "Mo'ed'im" is included as a courtesy to anyone wishing to Google a useful keyword on the subject. As research becomes more and more internet-based, such keywords (useful, unambiguous ones) are often noted for this purpose.

and you expect someone to believe that? I don't think you believe that yourself

 

[LaurenTM]

Dearest Lauren, (and a few others, not to just single you out) please be careful. Many will not agree with you on everything--even people in your own congregation. We are told to examine all ideas "carefully" (1 Thess. 5:21) using reason. Ad hominem (personal) attack is not only a logical fallacy (if a 19yo reads the periodic table of the elements, would you disbelieve him?), but is also extremely dangerous. The job of accusing our brothers and sisters is already occupied, and anyone engaging in this activity must be very careful to avoid being co-opted by that influence.

asking questions is not a personal attack unless the person being asked the questions does not want to answer

however, you have answered

you are Hebrew Roots or some spin off

if you are not, then feel free to deny it

 

[Redeemed2015]

Thank you Blade for remaining civil, allowing for proper and mature discussion. You have brought up a very important point to be made. I am often accused of believing and teaching a "works based salvation". Which is COMPLETELY FALSE! The Bible is explicit in Ephesians 2:8 that Salvation is by faith alone in The Messiah, not of works. In fact if I were to teach that it was my own good works that save me then that would be self-righteousness and not the righteousness of Christ, that is the righteousness of the law, being that Jesus was sinless. That same self-righteousness is seen as nothing than a "dirty rag"(Menstrual rag) in the sight of The Holy Father.

Let me make it as clear as possible, with scripture.
We are saved by grace through faith, not of our works so that anyone may boast of their own righteous deeds. (Eph 2:8-10)
After salvation comes training in righteousness, resulting in good works.(James 2:14-26; 2 Timothy 3:16)
Good works are the fruit of one that has salvation.
We don't stop sinning to be saved, we stop sinning because we are saved.

I don't keep the law to earn God's favor, I keep the law because I have HIS favor.( John 14:26)
I don't *HAVE* to, I *GET* to honor the Father's commandments. (1 John 39)

The Messiah, Yeshua(Jesus), had this to say when it came to keeping the commandments:
"If you love Me, keep my commandments." - John 14:15
I keep the commandments/instructions/law of God because I love HIM.

Now there are those who say Jesus is referring to His own 2 laws/comandments: 1. Love the LORD your GOD with all of your heart, soul, mind and strength. 2. Love you neighbor as yourself.
See Matthew 22:37 and Luke 10:27

They are teaching that Jesus brought His own doctrine, which directly contradicts what He said in John 7:16
"Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me."

Jesus did not come to bring His own new doctrine, but His Father's.
Jesus is quoting His Father's Doctrine in Matthew 22 and Luke 10, He is quoting from Deuteronomy 6:5

Matthew 22:40 "The Law and the Prophets hand on these two commandments"
What is Jesus saying? Not that these are the only commandments that matter, but that the entire law is based on 2 things: Loving GOD and Loving your neighbor.

If you love your neighbor you won't murder him, steal from him, sleep with his wife, lie to him etc.
Just the same, if you love GOD you will honor HIS commandments, "For this is the love GOD that you would keep HIS commandments." As this is the whole duty of man. (1 John 5:3 ; Ecclesiastes 12:13)

Hi Redeemed2015:

You said: "Over the past 4 years I have made dramatic changes to my life in order to match scripture and what God has commanded me to do in HIS word. I accept HIS Truth over my own falsehood. As a result I now keep the Levitical Dietary Instructions, keep the Sabbath, and Keep the Feasts,as well as all other Biblical Commandments by which I am obligated to obey. Why? Because God has commanded HIS people to do so."

And Then You Said: No, I have not. I encountered the love of the Father through HIS son the Messiah, Yeshua(Jesus) by realizing my sin against HIM and repenting. I love HIM because HE first loved me.

Yet, it is my understanding of the Bible that once you accept Jesus Christ as your savior and receive the Holy Spirit and keep up your continuing repentance of your sins (unless you are as sin free as Jesus Christ) there is nothing else that is a pre-requisite for getting into heaven.

Now, before I have a lot of people taking pokes at me, let me say this:

If you want to keep the " Levitical Dietary Instructions", "keep the Sabbath","Keep the Feasts", "Immersion Baptism" in your life there is no problem as long as you do not make it a necessity to get to heaven. To me that would calling Jesus Christ a liar.

John 11:26 KJV “And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”

For when you accept Jesus Christ, you get a part of him (Holy Spirit) to share your mortal body with you.

I think you will find in all cases (if your heart heart and soul has truly accepted Jesus Christ), you will be able to "live in Christ" as well.

 

[LaurenTM]

Paula White is now a practicing Hebrew Roots Movement follower

would you mind pming me the info on that?

thanks

I think Paula is lost in a supermarket anyway, but I would like to read the info for myself