Ask a "Messianic/Hebrew Rooter" (AMA)

[eternally-gratefull]

Thank you Blade for remaining civil, allowing for proper and mature discussion. You have brought up a very important point to be made. I am often accused of believing and teaching a "works based salvation". Which is COMPLETELY FALSE! The Bible is explicit in Ephesians 2:8 that Salvation is by faith alone in The Messiah, not of works. In fact if I were to teach that it was my own good works that save me then that would be self-righteousness and not the righteousness of Christ, that is the righteousness of the law, being that Jesus was sinless. That same self-righteousness is seen as nothing than a "dirty rag"(Menstrual rag) in the sight of The Holy Father.

Let me make it as clear as possible, with scripture.
We are saved by grace through faith, not of our works so that anyone may boast of their own righteous deeds. (Eph 2:8-10)
After salvation comes training in righteousness, resulting in good works.(James 2:14-26; 2 Timothy 3:16)
Good works are the fruit of one that has salvation.
We don't stop sinning to be saved, we stop sinning because we are saved.

I don't keep the law to earn God's favor, I keep the law because I have HIS favor.( John 14:26)
I don't *HAVE* to, I *GET* to honor the Father's commandments. (1 John 39)

The Messiah, Yeshua(Jesus), had this to say when it came to keeping the commandments:
"If you love Me, keep my commandments." - John 14:15
I keep the commandments/instructions/law of God because I love HIM.

Now there are those who say Jesus is referring to His own 2 laws/comandments: 1. Love the LORD your GOD with all of your heart, soul, mind and strength. 2. Love you neighbor as yourself.
See Matthew 22:37 and Luke 10:27

They are teaching that Jesus brought His own doctrine, which directly contradicts what He said in John 7:16
"Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me."

Jesus did not come to bring His own new doctrine, but His Father's.
Jesus is quoting His Father's Doctrine in Matthew 22 and Luke 10, He is quoting from Deuteronomy 6:5

Matthew 22:40 "The Law and the Prophets hand on these two commandments"
What is Jesus saying? Not that these are the only commandments that matter, but that the entire law is based on 2 things: Loving GOD and Loving your neighbor.

If you love your neighbor you won't murder him, steal from him, sleep with his wife, lie to him etc.
Just the same, if you love GOD you will honor HIS commandments, "For this is the love GOD that you would keep HIS commandments." As this is the whole duty of man. (1 John 5:3 ; Ecclesiastes 12:13)

you will have to forgive, Quite a few hebrew roots people have come in here bashing christians, and anyone who does not agree with them, They just cut and past stuff Condemn, refuse to answer questions, and no matter what happens.. Continue to bash,,

Most are not very friendly, and some have tried to convert people to a certain cult (which is against rules and has gotten them banned.)

Anyway, I hope we can discuss, have you thought about my answers?

 

[1LonelyKnight]

I mix these terms not that is how I would identify myself, but this is how I could be and have been identified by others. So as to avoid arguing over titles and openly discussing what I believe.

Yeshua(Jesus) is The Way(John 14:6).
Yeshua is the Messiah promised and prophesied in the Old Testament.
There are definitely Orthodox Jews that are still looking for The Messiah that was promised. However, due to either pride or even The Father hardening their hearts due to the traditions of men that are not ordained by The Father. However, there has been a substantial increase in the amount of Jews in Israel as well as all around the world that have had their eyes opened and have accepted Yeshua as Messiah.

Yeshua is an interesting name for Jesus. I am sure that there is some Hebrew etymological explanation. I fear transliteration and the Hashem name game approach that would turn yay-Zeus into Joshua. Sacred Name folks use this approach as do the Jehovah Witnesses. Certainly we look to a last (not Donald) Trump. But I will assert that Jesus blows both the gospel trump and the warning/call to war trump. Please expand on the this naming ...

 

[Redeemed2015]

Yes, Cannock, that reply was intended for you. However, I do in fact, answer you question. As the "Law of Moses" known as the "Torah" meaning "Law/ Instructions" which is a collection of writings containing the History of Israel from the Creation of the universe. The Torah(Law of Moses) contains around 613 commandments for the People of God. And they have always applied to believers. See previous references.

R15, is the above in response to my question (post #14), or someone else's? (I can't really tell) I was specifically referencing Mosaic Law, not all of HIS commandments, but rather specifically the Law of Moses.

Forgive me if you simply haven't gotten around to this question. I'll repeat it so you don't have to scroll:

Q. historically speaking, at what point in time did followers of Jesus first fall under Mosaic Law?
​

 

[Connock]

are you different from thread to thread or do we get a picture of who you really are?

I stand by everything I write, everywhere.

love the intro and underhanded aspersions that I may be ignoring God's eternal nature

The comment on God's eternal nature was not even remotely directed at you. It describes God's precision with dates. It is written clearly, not underhandedly. Why do you still insist I really meant x when I plainly wrote y?

and you expect someone to believe that? I don't think you believe that yourself

Seems we don't run in the same circles. (but that's not a crime...)

Taking a 30,000 foot view, I wish there were more civility on CC--what is potentially a very constructive forum for dialogue leading to enlightenment and growth in His Word. Scriptural authority should decide the issues we discuss, not the identities of those involved, nor the alleged intent (you can't really know either). I know it's overly idealistic to expect flesh and blood humans to always do this, but it's not idealistic to hope we can do it better. Assuming good faith and addressing the topic on its merit, not accusation, is the constructive way forward.

 

[Redeemed2015]

I did my best to condense the story and of course there are missing details. I was saved just after my twelfth birthday. I was raised up until that point in a Baptist Church. After I was saved I began attending a Church of God. I was there about 3 years and I studied scripture. I had been raised in church I wasn't completely ignorant of scripture at 12. At 15 I was moved by the Spirit to an Assemblies of God church. Where I was there for a year, stills studying. I had become good friends with the Pastor and we would often have long bible discussions after Sunday services. Some converstations taking place after Sunday Night services which would last until 2am sometimes 3am. I had thorough knowledge of scripture. Not perfect, not expert by any means. However my Pastor, who was a godly man, offered me the position at 16 after months of prayer about the situation. I prayed about it and accepted the position. The class was Wednesday nights prior to Youth Service starting at 4pm and lasting until 6:30pm(usually)The class was not a beginners/new believers class. It was deep study of the scripture aimed towards 19-23 year old college students. Was I taken seriously at first, No. The first class only had about 22 people attending in a medium sized room. In the first month we expanded from 22 people to 78 weekly in attendance and were moved to the Sanctuary due to the lack of room. Some younger than 19 others many were in their mid 20's and some even into their 30's. Yes, I worked in the sound booth in the church. I also Preached 1 Sunday a month under my Pastor. In the 2 and half short years of my attending this church there was a total of somewhere around 108 that were saved under the ministries I was a part of. I am 19, soon to be 20. This was not that long ago, I understand that. However, I have not falsified any information.

16 + 4 years = 20....not 19, or is it 3 years?



Also who asks a 16 year old to teach a class on Scriptures?

Who would attend classes taught by a 16 year old who had been attending the church for how many years?

So at 12, you got saved...started reading and studying which is good...

At 15 you left the church of God or the Baptist church that you were raised in and started attending an Assembly of God Church..working the sound booth?

At 16 you were asked by the,pastor to teach a class....

Now at 19 or 20, you are here to teach us poor ignorant masses about Hebrew roots?

Sorry if I want to learn about Jewish customs, I would ask a Jewish person or read the Bible myself and ask God to explain it. God told us that every born again believer has His ear and He is mighty to save.

 

[Connock]

Yes, Cannock, that reply was intended for you. However, I do in fact, answer you question. As the "Law of Moses" known as the "Torah" meaning "Law/ Instructions" which is a collection of writings containing the History of Israel from the Creation of the universe. The Torah(Law of Moses) contains around 613 commandments for the People of God. And they have always applied to believers. See previous references.

Thank you R15, perhaps we are getting hung up on semantics. By "Law of Moses", I mean specifically "Sinaitic Covenant". So, the question stands unanswered (now worded more precisely):

Q. historically speaking, at what point in time did followers of Jesus first fall under the Sinaitic Covenant?
​

 

[Redeemed2015]

The Law is burdensome!?!?!? That directly contradicts scripture.
"For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome."- 1 John 5:3
"The instructions of the LORD are perfect, reviving the soul. The decrees of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple" - Psalm 19:7
"Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good."


​See ALL of Psalm 119!!!I can understand scripture making people uncomfortable when it comes to addressing sin, but for a believer to DIRECTLY contradict the Word of GOD. That is heresy.

ok I will stop here. Going to the OT to try to explain this is not going to help. Of course the gentile was to adhere to the law also. God was dealing through mankind through the law. The law was given, as paul said,

[/FONT][/SIZE]Gal 3
[SUP]19 [/SUP]What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

This would go for all people. whether you were a jew or gentile. CHrist had not come yet, and when he would come, All people of the world through the law could have an opportunity to come to faith.

Because the law pointed to Christ.

how?

Gal 3: [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Circumcision had become a conversion ritual by the Pharisees just as baptism is often misused today as a means of "joining a particular church." If I refuse to be baptised in the Morman church, surely you'd see mine is a rejection of Mormanism -- NOT baptism itself! So the apostles reject this Pharisaic demand that Gentiles undergo the Pharisaic circumcision. Theirs was *not* a rejection of circumcision or Torah, but a rejection instead of Pharisaic conversion rituals. The gospel was being received by Gentiles *without* them becoming proselytes -- so this conversion by circumcision wasn't required. Note that God "made no distinction between us and them" (Acts 15:9) to show G-d was accepting Gentiles *without* them converting first.

"Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" Acts 15:7-11​

A few notes.

As paul said, Paul was saved BEFORE he was circumcised.

The issue wth the jews was they were forcing people to be circumcised to be saved, Which was not the example of Abraham, nor was it even required to be saved. Thats why paul charged them with teaching a different gospel

It was a sign of the covenant between God and abraham, And all who wanted to be a part of this covenant went through this ceremony,

More importanly, it was a teaching tool. Just like baptism is, (yet people say we MUST be baptised to be saved, which is just as bad as the pharisee in pauls day)

A gentile who does not get circumcised is no less saved than a jew r gentile that was circumcised, I pray you understand and believe this (and they are not in sin either)



No I can not agree The whole law is burdensom, No one but Christ ever kept it, Even jesus said when he was called good. "Who is good but God"

Gods standard is perfection. That is what is required, that is why it is such a burden, BECAUSE NO ONE CAN DO IT.

[/INDENT]again to lengthy,, Let start here, and get to the rest later.

but at least, thank you for sharing what you believe, I pray we can discuss it openly and not with hate.

 

[notuptome]

Interesting that Abraham was saved before the law and before circumcision.

Unless you are born in a Jewish family you are not Jewish. Jewish is an ethnic distinction not a religious distinction.

In your posts you tell me everything except when you personally received Christ as your Savior.

You have created a very elaborate exterior shell of religious devotion but what I'm really interested in would be what is inside.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Redeemed2015]

Okay, that is more clear. The Law however is not synonymous with The Covenant of Mt. Sinai. The Law was part of the Covenant. But there is something important to know about the Covenant at Mt.Sinai. It was a Marriage Covenant between God and Israel. Israel including all 12 Tribes of Jacob/Israel and all of those who had sojourned among them who were recognized as part of the "Commonwealth" of Israel. The Commandments of God were part of this Covenant, The Old Covenant. But the laws existed prior to the covenant. Examples would be distinctions between clean and unclean animals as food, sacrifices and appointed times.

But God divorced Israel after they were split into two Kingdoms, The Northern Kingdom(10 Tribes taken over by Assyria) and The Southern Kingdom(Judah and Benjamin taken over by Babylon) Benjamin later on joining the Northern Kingdom. The Tribe of Judah, remained faithful to The Father so they were not divorced. This is one of the several reason Jesus came through the Tribe of Judah. This causes the split of Two Houses: The House of Israel and The House of Judah.

According to God's law once a husband and a wife are divorced the husband cannot take back his previous wife.
As the wife is held to the Covenant as long as her husband lives. Therefore, since the wife(Israel) had gone astray and committed adultery it is not lawful for the husband to take her back.

However, what if the Husband(God) dies? Then the wife(Israel) would be released from the covenant.
So God, comes as Yeshua(God's Salvation), God in the flesh. Lives his life as an example of how we are to live, obeying HIS commandments. Then Jesus dies. Releasing Israel from the Old Covenant and establishing a New Covenant, So that God is able to take back the lost sheep of Israel according to HIS own law.

Jeremiah 31 defines the New Covenant.
"31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I WAS a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

According to God, The New Covenant reunites the House of Israel and Judah unto HIMSELF. And that HIS LAW will be in their minds and on their hearts. That is that they would be mindful and obedient to HIS law and they would live by HIS law because they love HIM. Not that the law would be done away with or that it would no longer apply.

Yeshua approves this when He says, "I come not but for the lost sheep of Israel" in Matthew 15:24
He also approves the Law in the life of believers when He says, "17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.[FONT=&quot]18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." in Matthew 5:17-19[/FONT]

Thank you R15, perhaps we are getting hung up on semantics. By "Law of Moses", I mean specifically "Sinaitic Covenant". So, the question stands unanswered (now worded more precisely):

Q. historically speaking, at what point in time did followers of Jesus first fall under the Sinaitic Covenant?
​

 

[Dan_473]

the above post, #26, is found VERBATIM

RIGHT HERE

so while the op would seem to want to impress us with all his many many years of study and deep prayer, he just copy/pasted his post

irregardless, the title of the article is Should Gentiles Follow Torah

through manipulation and really really bad exegesis, these folks seek to tell us that Paul did not mean what we think he means

and oh goody...he is here to straighten us all out

......and there you have it, straight from the Torah observant Messianic Judaism

Gentiles cannot and do not become Jewish

good catch, Lauren


thanks for the heads-up

-----------

Redeemed2015,

did you know it's usually a good idea to post the link that you pasted from?

 

[Dan_473]

Awkward? No, That is a website of mine I collaborated with others to make.

if the material in a post isn't produced largely in response to a previous post here on CC, imo it's polite to say that.

 

[Dan_473]

Yes, Cannock, that reply was intended for you. However, I do in fact, answer you question. As the "Law of Moses" known as the "Torah" meaning "Law/ Instructions" which is a collection of writings containing the History of Israel from the Creation of the universe. The Torah(Law of Moses) contains around 613 commandments for the People of God. And they have always applied to believers. See previous references.

did you arrive at the 613 number by your own research, or is it based on Jewish tradition?

 

[LaurenTM]

Connock;2827068]I stand by everything I write, everywhere.

but you clearly do not answer direct questions

The comment on God's eternal nature was not even remotely directed at you. It describes God's precision with dates. It is written clearly, not underhandedly. Why do you still insist I really meant x when I plainly wrote y?

you know, you are not getting anywhere evading.

this:

Dear Laruen, I'm afraid you might have lifted those words out of context, cast them into a different one, and are asserting something unintended (every husband in the world knows what I am describing). My words were written in a different thread, on a different topic. But since you ask, I will assume good faith, and explain:

is obviously what I was referring to since I colored it with such a pretty shade of red...you tried to make it seem that I was reading what you wrote and jumping to conclusions BECAUSE I am a woman...all husbands know what women are like...wink wink...just humor them

that's really sad you think that way and probably a possible side effect of your patriarchal faux society?



Seems we don't run in the same circles. (but that's not a crime...)

LOL! well you are certainly running IN circles but that is to be expected

Taking a 30,000 foot view, I wish there were more civility on CC--what is potentially a very constructive forum for dialogue leading to enlightenment and growth in His Word. Scriptural authority should decide the issues we discuss, not the identities of those involved, nor the alleged intent (you can't really know either). I know it's overly idealistic to expect flesh and blood humans to always do this, but it's not idealistic to hope we can do it better. Assuming good faith and addressing the topic on its merit, not accusation, is the constructive way forward.


oh please...really?

then stay on your own Roots sites and everyone will agree with you

 

[PennEd]

Okay, that is more clear. The Law however is not synonymous with The Covenant of Mt. Sinai. The Law was part of the Covenant. But there is something important to know about the Covenant at Mt.Sinai. It was a Marriage Covenant between God and Israel. Israel including all 12 Tribes of Jacob/Israel and all of those who had sojourned among them who were recognized as part of the "Commonwealth" of Israel. The Commandments of God were part of this Covenant, The Old Covenant. But the laws existed prior to the covenant. Examples would be distinctions between clean and unclean animals as food, sacrifices and appointed times.

But God divorced Israel after they were split into two Kingdoms, The Northern Kingdom(10 Tribes taken over by Assyria) and The Southern Kingdom(Judah and Benjamin taken over by Babylon) Benjamin later on joining the Northern Kingdom. The Tribe of Judah, remained faithful to The Father so they were not divorced. This is one of the several reason Jesus came through the Tribe of Judah. This causes the split of Two Houses: The House of Israel and The House of Judah.

According to God's law once a husband and a wife are divorced the husband cannot take back his previous wife.
As the wife is held to the Covenant as long as her husband lives. Therefore, since the wife(Israel) had gone astray and committed adultery it is not lawful for the husband to take her back.

However, what if the Husband(God) dies? Then the wife(Israel) would be released from the covenant.
So God, comes as Yeshua(God's Salvation), God in the flesh. Lives his life as an example of how we are to live, obeying HIS commandments. Then Jesus dies. Releasing Israel from the Old Covenant and establishing a New Covenant, So that God is able to take back the lost sheep of Israel according to HIS own law.

Jeremiah 31 defines the New Covenant.
"31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I WAS a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

According to God, The New Covenant reunites the House of Israel and Judah unto HIMSELF. And that HIS LAW will be in their minds and on their hearts. That is that they would be mindful and obedient to HIS law and they would live by HIS law because they love HIM. Not that the law would be done away with or that it would no longer apply.

Yeshua approves this when He says, "I come not but for the lost sheep of Israel" in Matthew 15:24
He also approves the Law in the life of believers when He says, "17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." in Matthew 5:17-19

Someone has really done a number on this young man. My heart is troubled for him and pray that the Lord will shake him out of this twisted doctrine, and that he would simply trust Jesus for his Salvation, and understand that to try and keep the law to be justified is the ultimate insult to God, who told His Son in Gethsemane, that there WAS NO OTHER WAY than for Him to die for our sins.

The one question that I'd like these HRM guys to answer is what are the consequences to those who DON'T keep the law, the sabbath, and the feasts? Do you still believe you are saved if you don't?

Peace, love, and Grace to my brothers and sisters who rely SOLELY on the shed blood of our Savior, Jesus Christ?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

ya may want to learn how to quote also..

The Law is burdensome!?!?!? That directly contradicts scripture.
"For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome."- 1 John 5:3
"The instructions of the LORD are perfect, reviving the soul. The decrees of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple" - Psalm 19:7
"Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good."

I must ask, Have you obeyed the law as required by the law itself? do you even understand what the requirement of the law is? Why is it the law can not make us holy? ​

See ALL of Psalm 119!!!I can understand scripture making people uncomfortable when it comes to addressing sin, but for a believer to DIRECTLY contradict the Word of GOD. That is heresy.

It does not make me unconfortable at all. I know I am a sinner, All I need to do is look at the law. And I know I am a sinner.

What does make me unconfortable is people saying they can look to the law. And not feel like they are condemned, But they are righteous because they follow the law..

That whould make everyone uncomfortable.

as for the rest of your post. I could not make any sense of it, Did you respond to my Galatians critique or was it just an error. It looks like the origional post with no response.. If I am wrong forgive me.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Okay, that is more clear. The Law however is not synonymous with The Covenant of Mt. Sinai. The Law was part of the Covenant. But there is something important to know about the Covenant at Mt.Sinai. It was a Marriage Covenant between God and Israel. Israel including all 12 Tribes of Jacob/Israel and all of those who had sojourned among them who were recognized as part of the "Commonwealth" of Israel. The Commandments of God were part of this Covenant, The Old Covenant. But the laws existed prior to the covenant. Examples would be distinctions between clean and unclean animals as food, sacrifices and appointed times.

But God divorced Israel after they were split into two Kingdoms, The Northern Kingdom(10 Tribes taken over by Assyria) and The Southern Kingdom(Judah and Benjamin taken over by Babylon) Benjamin later on joining the Northern Kingdom. The Tribe of Judah, remained faithful to The Father so they were not divorced. This is one of the several reason Jesus came through the Tribe of Judah. This causes the split of Two Houses: The House of Israel and The House of Judah.

According to God's law once a husband and a wife are divorced the husband cannot take back his previous wife.
As the wife is held to the Covenant as long as her husband lives. Therefore, since the wife(Israel) had gone astray and committed adultery it is not lawful for the husband to take her back.

However, what if the Husband(God) dies? Then the wife(Israel) would be released from the covenant.
So God, comes as Yeshua(God's Salvation), God in the flesh. Lives his life as an example of how we are to live, obeying HIS commandments. Then Jesus dies. Releasing Israel from the Old Covenant and establishing a New Covenant, So that God is able to take back the lost sheep of Israel according to HIS own law.

Jeremiah 31 defines the New Covenant.
"31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I WAS a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

According to God, The New Covenant reunites the House of Israel and Judah unto HIMSELF. And that HIS LAW will be in their minds and on their hearts. That is that they would be mindful and obedient to HIS law and they would live by HIS law because they love HIM. Not that the law would be done away with or that it would no longer apply.

Yeshua approves this when He says, "I come not but for the lost sheep of Israel" in Matthew 15:24
He also approves the Law in the life of believers when He says, "17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." in Matthew 5:17-19

Why is Isreal called the elect of God by Paul ig God divorced them?

and since when does God break his own covenant? The abrahamic covenant was not a conditional covenant, The mosaic was.

 

[Connock]

Thank you R15 for your thoughtful answer.

First, I would comment on your narrative at these points:

But the laws existed prior to the covenant. Examples would be distinctions between clean and unclean animals as food, sacrifices and appointed times.

Most Laws (Mitzvot) did NOT exist prior to Sinai. An example is taking sisters as wives. Jacob did this openly. The overwhelming majority of Mosaic Law, including all the appointed times (Mo'ed'im) date to Sinai. It was there that God proclaimed Aviv (Nisan) to be the first month, and then set the feast days.

According to God's law once a husband and a wife are divorced the husband cannot take back his previous wife. As the wife is held to the Covenant as long as her husband lives. Therefore, since the wife(Israel) had gone astray and committed adultery it is not lawful for the husband to take her back.

I see where you are taking it, I would only comment that it is illegal to remarry only when the divorced wife remarries another and divorces again. (one is permitted to divorce and then reconcile the next day). It may or may not mean anything, I just think it's best to keep all facts factual.

More importantly, Jeremiah 31:33-35 speaks of a New Covenant written on the hearts of men, not on stone. It is not a renewal of an old covenant (such as is described in Dan 9:27) but a new one, explicitly unlike any old one. "...not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt..." (Jer 31:32) This is a clear reference to the Sinaitic covenant. The new covenant is explicitly NOT the Sinaitic covenant.

And here's the rub.

The question of when ISRAEL came under the Law is easily answered. It was at Sinai, when Israel CONSENTED to God's offer to become His people. In Egypt, they were not under those Laws. They sealed the covenant by sprinkling lamb's blood on everyone.

But God is the God of the Universe, not just of Israel.

This covenant with Israel was fulfilled by Jesus on the cross when his blood was shed for all. He did come for the lost sheep of Israel, and fulfilled the Law they were under. His Crucifixion ended the Old Covenant with Israel and began the New Covenant, as Jeremiah promised 600 years prior.

The Law is still there, for all to see, to demonstrate our Sin and need for Jesus' perfect work on the cross. Nobody could keep it "...unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matt 5:20) Trying to keep it, even one, requires keeping all 613. We can't, and we aren't supposed to.

OK, so now to the gentiles (me, and many others) who were never heirs to the Sinaitic covenant, but are followers of Jesus.

The question of whether a gentile must first submit to the Law ("sinaitic covenant") to become Christian was explicitly answered "NO" in Paul's letter to the Galatians. This direct evidence trumps any derivative theological construct (often involving redefining gentiles as already Hebrew in some way).

I understand the temptation. For centuries, the Church has envied Israel's chosen status, and attempted to co-opt it (all the blessings please, but none of the curses, thank you). Torah is for Israel. Jesus is for all mankind (including Israel).

 

[1LonelyKnight]

Do HRM folks have a cultural / demographic root as a common denominator? German-Jew, Italian-Jew and etc. Various cultures were projected upon by kabbalistic Jews to be used as cover and gain. Marry a Roman or German or Irish or khazar as a cover and/or gain power or control.

 

[1LonelyKnight]

Lovely thread. A few insights, a couple questionable views; lineage of Mary, dispute with new believers ...
Too many long posts discourage meaningful discourse (partly because of being on a cell phone.

Amplification on disputing new believers - while we shouldn't judge immaturity as corruption or wrong intent - we should correct on errors of doctrine when wrongly asserted as teachings - perhaps rebuke when repeated having once been corrected.

Good insight on concept of youth - the reason why in our culture a person must be 35 to become president - not a bad idea for preachers too ...

The HRM explanations here are far off the exegesis and hermeneutic I have observed in sitting in on, participating and sometime teaching/correcting on Paltalk ... Those are a bit scripted and reveal some good tidbits of Jewish traditions and culture as applied to scripture. Summation - most of this is too far off to comment on ...

 

[KohenMatt]

Do HRM folks have a cultural / demographic root as a common denominator? German-Jew, Italian-Jew and etc. Various cultures were projected upon by kabbalistic Jews to be used as cover and gain. Marry a Roman or German or Irish or khazar as a cover and/or gain power or control.

Nothing in particular that I'm aware. I'm from Colorado and have some ancestry from Ireland. For the most part, HRM-ers aren't derived from a particular culture, but more from a common desire.