Ask a "Messianic/Hebrew Rooter" (AMA)

[KohenMatt]

like I just said...they will come back with Paul is hard to understand

what they really mean is, doggone that Paul! he keeps putting a stick in our spokes

I don't think Paul is hard to understand at all. But I think some people take His words out of context by not knowing what Jesus' stance on things are. Jesus' direct words are the foundation of Scripture. Paul's words are an extension of those same truths; almost like a commentary. Paul's words HAVE to line up with Jesus' (and do.) So, if we read something by Paul that seems difficult to understand or seems to be at odds with Jesus' then we need to go back to Jesus' words 1st to get the proper understanding.

 

[Grace777x70]

The proclamation of Christ produces the profession of Christ, but the explanation of Christ is what produces the experience of Christ.

Believers can never fully enjoy the triumph of the gospel and express Christ in this world victoriously until there has been an explanation and exposition of the vivid details of the redemptive work of Christ that has gained a foothold in our renewed minds.

The 4 gospels were eyewitness accounts of the historical events in the life and ministry of our Lord Jesus Christ. Christianity is based on the veracity of these events as having occurred in real time, in all historicity and specificity.

Nevertheless it is the unveiling of the spiritual realities of these events that relates to the believer in Christ. This is found in the revelation that the Lord Jesus Christ gave to the apostle Paul.

The 4 gospels are the proclamation of the gospel. They disclose to us what men saw. Acts of the apostles is the demonstration of the gospel, but it is Paul's letters which give us an explanation of the gospel. It is the Pauline Epistles that are the constitution of this church age.

Paul's epistles explain what happened from the cross, death, burial, quickening and resurrection to the being seated at the right hand of the Father. Without these epistles we would have no idea what Jesus our Lord actually accomplished for us.

Paul was taught by Jesus Christ Himself to explain His gospel = to reveal the mystery that was hidden in God until it was revealed by Christ to Paul. The mystery being Christ Himself and the riches of that glory is that Christ is in us and we are in Him!

 

[Gr8grace]

The 4 gospels are the proclamation of the gospel. They disclose to us what men saw. Acts of the apostles is the demonstration of the gospel, but it is Paul's letters which give us an explanation of the gospel. It is the Pauline Epistles that are the constitution of this church age.

I know you know this. This is why we have believers trying to be Jewish. They don't understand mystery doctrine and that Paul lays out the doctrine and life for the Church.

If we didn't have Paul and his epistles, we would all try to be Jewish.

 

[LaurenTM]

I don't think Paul is hard to understand at all. But I think some people take His words out of context by not knowing what Jesus' stance on things are. Jesus' direct words are the foundation of Scripture. Paul's words are an extension of those same truths; almost like a commentary. Paul's words HAVE to line up with Jesus' (and do.) So, if we read something by Paul that seems difficult to understand or seems to be at odds with Jesus' then we need to go back to Jesus' words 1st to get the proper understanding.

I really wish this pointless thread had been left where it was...second page and going down

however, since you decided to respond to my post...

am I talking about you?

are you Hebrew Roots?

I don't agree with all you believe (and vice versa to be sure) but we have already had the conversation wherein you state you don't believe keeping any part of the law secures salvation or your standing in Jesus

do you exclude Paul's letters?

I have done quite a bit of research by now, and while I don't have the knowledge that someone, say like JGIG has (as she has been familiar with these cults for some years now) I know that Paul is discounted and discouraged

so good on you if you don't find Paul hard to understand

be sure to follow what he says then, since ALL the word is inspired by the Spirit of God!

Cheers!

 

[KohenMatt]

are you Hebrew Roots?

Kinda, I suppose. I don't like to go strictly by HRM, because there's an automatic labeling of who I am and what I believe (often demonstrated on this forum.)

do you exclude Paul's letters?

Nope. They're anointed and inspired words of God.

I have done quite a bit of research by now, and while I don't have the knowledge that someone, say like JGIG has (as she has been familiar with these cults for some years now) I know that Paul is discounted and discouraged.

Not by everyone. There are some extreme sects that do, but in my 10+ years of "HRM ministry I've only seen a very small percentage that discount him.

so good on you if you don't find Paul hard to understand

be sure to follow what he says then, since ALL the word is inspired by the Spirit of God!

Cheers!

I'm always praying I understand him better, though!

 

[LaurenTM]

we had this conversation...we are good, you and I...what you follow is between you and the Lord and if I decided to worship every Saturday, I will still have the knowledge of what is the actual Sabbath...so, if your conscience does not condemn you? right?

there is a difference between a settled conscience between someone and the Lord and the desire to follow Christ, who may, further down the line, be persuaded otherwise, and someone who insists we keep the law, call Jesus anything BUT Jesus and tell us we break the 4th commandment and are in a state of sin

Hebrew Roots teaching is making headway into Christian congregations and itching ears are receiving it

if the devil cannot cause one to sin by suggestion and temptation, he will cause the righteous to become self righteous and there is not a difference

what I am seeing, is that folks want to handle and touch and do and check out their own worthiness...all having to do with the law

righteousness in God is ONLY through faith in Jesus and HIS completed works

good?

 

[PennEd]

I absolutely believe people are still saved if they don't follow the Law. Jesus said so Himself Matthew 5. But according to that passage, their standing in the Kingdom might be in question. I'm still working through that myself.

Along those same lines, I often wonder what God's response to ANY sin in Scripture is. If it's a sin of ignorance and not knowing that God says something is a sin, I believe there is an extra amount of mercy. But if someone reads something in ANY Scripture that defines a sin, and they willfully decide to ignore it, what is God's response to that? Again, I'm still working through that.

Thank you for answering my question, however I understand Matthew 5:17-20 in a totally different way than you:
[h=3]Christ Fulfills the Law[/h][FONT=&quot]17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

This passage says to me that JESUS is the fulfillment of the Law, and to preach HIM alone, because those who preach keeping the Law CAN'T fulfill it.

And those preaching Salvation by keeping the Law had better keep EVERY last bit of it, and have THEIR righteousness EXCEED the Pharisees (see Paul while still Saul) or you CAN'T enter the Kingdom of Heaven.[/FONT]

 

[KohenMatt]

And those preaching Salvation by keeping the Law had better keep EVERY last bit of it, and have THEIR righteousness EXCEED the Pharisees (see Paul while still Saul) or you CAN'T enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

I definitely agree with this.

 

[Dan_473]

I absolutely believe people are still saved if they don't follow the Law. Jesus said so Himself Matthew 5. But according to that passage, their standing in the Kingdom might be in question. I'm still working through that myself.

Along those same lines, I often wonder what God's response to ANY sin in Scripture is. If it's a sin of ignorance and not knowing that God says something is a sin, I believe there is an extra amount of mercy. But if someone reads something in ANY Scripture that defines a sin, and they willfully decide to ignore it, what is God's response to that? Again, I'm still working through that.

I'm glad you're here, KohenMatt.

let's talk about sin/salvation.

suppose a person knowingly, willfully, flagrantly, and carelessly hates their brother.
I'd say that person isn't saved.
would we agree there?

suppose I read that the law says to wear tassles. I knowingly, willfully, flagrantly, and carelessly disregard that commandment. Can I currently be saved?

 

[Dan_473]

I don't think Paul is hard to understand at all. But I think some people take His words out of context by not knowing what Jesus' stance on things are. Jesus' direct words are the foundation of Scripture. Paul's words are an extension of those same truths; almost like a commentary. Paul's words HAVE to line up with Jesus' (and do.) So, if we read something by Paul that seems difficult to understand or seems to be at odds with Jesus' then we need to go back to Jesus' words 1st to get the proper understanding.

to me, this is critical in Jesus and Paul.

Jesus is talking to Jewish people before the new covenant.

Paul writes to gentiles post new covenant.

 

[KohenMatt]

suppose a person knowingly, willfully, flagrantly, and carelessly hates their brother.
I'd say that person isn't saved.
would we agree there?

It might sound like a cop-out, but I don't know for sure, so I'm not going to take a stance on that one. When it comes to matters of salvation, I tend to stay out of it, trusting God will take care of that according to His own wisdom.

suppose I read that the law says to wear tassles. I knowingly, willfully, flagrantly, and carelessly disregard that commandment. Can I currently be saved?

Same thing as above.

 

[KohenMatt]

to me, this is critical in Jesus and Paul.

Jesus is talking to Jewish people before the new covenant.

Paul writes to gentiles post new covenant.

I don't agree with that perspective, since that approach and attitude means none of Jesus' words are for the gentiles, and that none of Paul's words are for the Jews.

 

[Grace777x70]

I don't believe we should be jumping on those brothers/sisters of ours in the Lord that are interested in the roots of the Hebrew people. God used them to bring us the promises of God, the Christ, the scriptures. If they want to observe a day or a feast - that is their liberty in Christ to do so.

Personally I love to read about how Christ has fulfilled the law of Moses and that the shadows reveal the reality that is truly in Christ alone. I love the Hebrew language and how even in their letters - it reveals Christ.

Where some of the Hebrew Roots people desert Christ is when they are going back to the law of Moses to observe it "for itself" and they say "If you don't so some things in the law of Moses - then you are disobeying God." This is the perversion of the gospel of the grace of Christ and makes void the work of Christ. That is something that we should all stand against.

But in saying that - let's not throw the baby out with the dirty bath water and allow those to treat a day/Jewish feast special for them if they want. They are NOT all the same as the fringe ones in the Hebrew Roots group.

They are our beloved brethren in the Lord and we will be spending eternity with them! Shalom....

 

[tanakh]

The most ironic thing about the roots movement is that most genuine Jewish People only have a nodding acquaintance with judaism. They may attend Synagogue on festival days, Bar Mitzvahs and eat kosher but as a whole they tend to be secularist in their life style and their religious beliefs can be anything from Buddhist to Atheist. Yet here we have mainly none Jews trying to emulate a tiny percentage of the Jewish population by following a religious path that is not even Torah based but is mainly tradition derived from the Talmud.

 

[oldethennew]

did anyone ever stop and think how it would feel if people tried to take away
your Faith, your identity, your hopes and beliefs from you when you Love and Honor
your Saviour but may have made some wrong choices in who you hooked-up with in the process,
but you were secure in your own personal Love and Faith, but maybe Jesus hadn't taken you out of
where you started or maybe He hasn't gotten around to pulling you out of a deceived church or an
imitation pastor/leader- YET???

I have been in a few, and after conversion I am able to look-back and see where they were in great
error, but Jesus was still with me, guiding me where He wanted me to be, and it is pure joy and
appreciation and pure Love to understand and embrace this wonder..

please honor and respect people's feelings and hearts, they to are on their journey, just as you are...

as long as they are truly seeking Jesus Christ, where they are is no business of ours...

 

[KohenMatt]

The most ironic thing about the roots movement is that most genuine Jewish People only have a nodding acquaintance with judaism. They may attend Synagogue on festival days, Bar Mitzvahs and eat kosher but as a whole they tend to be secularist in their life style and their religious beliefs can be anything from Buddhist to Atheist. Yet here we have mainly none Jews trying to emulate a tiny percentage of the Jewish population by following a religious path that is not even Torah based but is mainly tradition derived from the Talmud.

Keep in mind though, that not everyone in the HRM does traditions of the Talmud and popular Jewish application. I have no desire to be Jewish or to live an Orthodox lifestyle. My desire is to focus on what the Word says, and following the Scriptural examples. As I've said before, in my 10+ years of ministry in the HRM, I've seen a small percentage of folks begin focusing on the Talmud or Jewish Orthodoxy.

 

[Connock]

The most ironic thing about the roots movement is that most genuine Jewish People only have a nodding acquaintance with judaism. They may attend Synagogue on festival days, Bar Mitzvahs and eat kosher but as a whole they tend to be secularist in their life style and their religious beliefs can be anything from Buddhist to Atheist. Yet here we have mainly none Jews trying to emulate a tiny percentage of the Jewish population by following a religious path that is not even Torah based but is mainly tradition derived from the Talmud.

so true. some of the biggest atheists are Jewish.

Someone once called HRM (and I know this probably only pertains to a subset) marketed "yiddishkeit" - (German for Yiddish-ness). The appeal is to people who want to feel transformed somehow--in this case culturally--but seek to do this through Mosaic Law and novel (to them) customs. This is a counterfeit of being transformed spiritually by the Holy spirit.

A Canadian tourist returned from India, showed off his 1 Million dollar bill (with Bill Clinton's picture on it) he purchased in Mumbai, bragging he paid only US$300,000 for it. What a bargain!
His friends were dismayed. How could he be so stupid? so naive?
Startled at this reaction, the tourist calmly pulled out another paper from his pocket. "See here, it came with a certificate of authenticity".
​

Anyone may study the scriptures diligently, accept their authority, be guided by the spirit to honestly held beliefs. But I think the co-opted "yiddishkeit" is really there for emotional (and visual) assurance. Unless you are Jewish it has no real cultural value, like the bogus "certificate of authenticity" accompanying the counterfeit bill.

 

[tanakh]

did anyone ever stop and think how it would feel if people tried to take away
your Faith, your identity, your hopes and beliefs from you when you Love and Honor
your Saviour but may have made some wrong choices in who you hooked-up with in the process,
but you were secure in your own personal Love and Faith, but maybe Jesus hadn't taken you out of
where you started or maybe He hasn't gotten around to pulling you out of a deceived church or an
imitation pastor/leader- YET???

I have been in a few, and after conversion I am able to look-back and see where they were in great
error, but Jesus was still with me, guiding me where He wanted me to be, and it is pure joy and
appreciation and pure Love to understand and embrace this wonder..

please honor and respect people's feelings and hearts, they to are on their journey, just as you are...

as long as they are truly seeking Jesus Christ, where they are is no business of ours...

I have no problem with an individual's choice as to how they worship or where they worship. Where I do have a problem is having that same individual telling me and others that my personal choice and beliefs are wrong and I should return to a
system of works and spiritual bondage because they have some superior knowledge of Scripture and infer that I am heading for damnation because I do not share their views. This thread and others like it are from people who are ''trying to take away my faith,my identity, my hopes and beliefs'' from me

 

[KohenMatt]

I have no problem with an individual's choice as to how they worship or where they worship. Where I do have a problem is having that same individual telling me and others that my personal choice and beliefs are wrong and I should return to a
system of works and spiritual bondage because they have some superior knowledge of Scripture and infer that I am heading for damnation because I do not share their views. This thread and others like it are from people who are ''trying to take away my faith,my identity, my hopes and beliefs'' from me

Do you think those on the opposite side of the Torah-keeping discussion do very similar things though (replace the system of works with a system of non-works)?

I've seen it both ways.

 

[oldethennew]

wanted to share this thought that just came to me.

what if one were a real Hebrew, God's chosen above all peoples and God let you understand
that you were deliberately blinded by Him so that the Gentiles could be brought into His Holy family?

I would want to jump right up to the heavens and worship/kiss my Saviour...