Two useless/inappropriate/wrong accusations

[Stunnedbygrace]

if y'all keep doing the same thing and complaining about the results

maybe, change what you are doing?

ie...if someone bugs the snot of you...why keep blowing their nose?

At least I'm onto you and put my coffee down first this time...

 

[Chester]

Bye everyone for now! I will be gone from CC till tomorrow sometime . . .

 

[PeterJens]

Discussion to reach a point or just to support a group

In verbal interchanges, some will just be desiring to turn things to make someone look
bad and their side innocent victims or to find out what is really at issue.

The problem comes when a group know a weakness, but are playing only the appearance
game.

Once you suss them out, there is little point playing along, because no interchange is
intended to reach a proper conclusion.

The other problem is when you walk with Jesus there is only ever one result, and
He wins. And boy do those who oppose Him hate this, but they do not know why
it always ends up this way, it must be the enemy they tell themselves.

So I always ask myself am I desiring to know Him better and help others grow in
Him or just to defend my position? I hope in the Lord I am just desiring to know
Him more. So I encourage you also to let His word dwell in your hearts and
transform you into His likeness, day by day, because there is no other way.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not actually - follow our later correspondence - He stands by Swaggert's interpretation as the correct "literal" one

At least if I am understanding him and our conversation - I am still a bit confused over the whole matter . . .

so am I, Who is he, and what did Swaggert say?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hey! I also believe that God created us with worth (different than "worthy of salvation") and I also believe that salvation can be lost!

But I don't believe that we can earn salvation!

but you just think a person can lose faith right?

That is different than saying we can sin our way out of salvation. Like others believe.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Peter does it in a caterwauling way. You and I do it in a more graceful and gentle way, but we do it also.
For example, chester said he believes salvation is possible to lose but that he is rabid against works for salvation.
You said that you would still think he is works based salvation even though he has said he isn't.

if you go back and read. I think he said one can lose by losing faith. That could be contemplated as works based. But faith is not a work of men, but is a work of God. so it would not be works based.

That is different, and would need further discussion to see what he really believes..

Now, you don't think chester is lying on purpose and you don't scream heretic and liar, but you believe he is saying he believes thus and thus but that....he isn't REALLY believing what he says he believes. You think he is works based even though he has said he isn't. It is the same thing as you saying what you believe and peter saying no, you REALLY believe something else.

There is a difference, Why can people not see it?

peter said I am lying about my belief, And says his only proof is his own feeling..

when we try to explain what we believe, peter does not even want to discuss it, His only cry is we are wrong, and we are just just attacking him..

Now, if I am doing that to Chester. then I am just as bad as peter. And I would expect all my brothers and sisters to stand in unison and call me out for it. And if I did not listen to them, to ignore me..

Do you see my point?

no. Because I am not calling Chester a lyer, slandering him, and have actually been open to have him discuss what he really believes. and not make judgment until then. (I have said, if he believes in losing salvation that means he works for it, that is my opinion. and I did not judge him, or say he was wrong, and attack him, and when he tellsme I am wrong, get angry at him and etc etc..

something peter has never done.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Bye everyone for now! I will be gone from CC till tomorrow sometime . . .

have a blessed evening!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I am confused.
How can a person believe that Jesus has the power to save you, but somehow does not have the power to keep you saved?
How can you trust Him to save you, if you can not trust Him to keep you?
Can you help me out here?

I will admit that I sometimes go back and forth on it. But the longer I know Him and the more snares and dangers toward mistrust He brings me through victoriously, the more I begin to lean toward: I was always safe, even IN the dangers, because He just simply is not going to unhand me. But then I read all the warnings of the apostles and think....it is possible but I don't see how...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Discussion to reach a point or just to support a group

In verbal interchanges, some will just be desiring to turn things to make someone look
bad and their side innocent victims or to find out what is really at issue.

See. When Chester tells us we are wrong about his belief, do we act this way. Do we attack him, and say he is trying to just belittle us or attack us to get his own viewpoint across.

This is jut pure evil, and pride. and arrogant.

Why do people try to baby this man, He is a grown adult. and should be treated as one, After months of the same nonsense.

I believe in forgiveness, And I would be the first to forgive Peter (he is already forgiven) but to allow him to continue in sin, is doing the very thing he and his kind scream, That we allow and condone sin. Well it is time to stop condoning Peters sin and call sin for what it is.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

???? Who or what group of people are you talking about (that believe this)?

I have not met anyone or been to any church that teaches such a thing - and I have not believed in "once saved always saved" all my life.

Honestly - I have not heard the idea above one time - except from the anti-OSAS crowd as an accusation!

She is talking about how one can believe it is possible to lose your salvation. To her, this seems like saying He is powerful enough to save her but possible not powerful enough to keep her saved.

 

[PeterJens]

Do you see my point?

I see your point, and thankyou.

In talking to muslims I found a contradiction.
Everything was corrupted, but unspecified, yet Islam was uncorrupted, or at least the right
version which again was unspecified. Taken to its conclusion this means total war infinitely,
because there are no limits other than the conscience of the individual, which leads only to
anarchy or ISIS.

In christian faith you cannot abandon moral law, without becoming lawless and the enemy
of the faith. You cannot equally say God does everything to save people, we are just passengers
and then have a mission to expose legalists, who are rotting the church, when that is impossible
by the original belief statement of how one is saved and kept. Somewhere people are lying.

Another contradiction is condemning the self righteous as hypocrites and honest sinners as saved,
and then once saved though sinners saying you are righteous and sin should be ignored. That is
becoming the very thing one started condemning.

But the truth is only the people of God truly see the truth, and we are called to preach it to everyone,
in season and out of season, Praise the Lord. And by this none will be innocent before the judgement
seat of God. Now those who have no fear and trembling, they should think again because we are
mortal and the Lord is King.

 

[Grace777x70]

I believe we have to differentiate between "going to heaven to be with the Lord " salvation and - "being saved from the things that can destroy us here while being on this earth."

There are different manifestations of salvation in Christ - one is going to be with the Lord - the other is concerning the things of this life on earth.

When we see the warnings from the apostles - I believe they are referring a lot to this life while we are here on this earth.

The promised land is a type of being in Christ now - it is not a type of heaven as there will be no giants to fight in heaven.

Moses did not get to rest in what God had already provided for the Israelites - but yet Moses is with God now.

The promised land is a type of living here on this earth by believing in the promises of God. Only Caleb and Joshua were the ones that got to experience the promises of God in the promised land because they believed in what God had said.

We can inherit now in this life some things that are of the kingdom of God because the kingdom of God is within us...however if we don't have our minds renewed to the truth in Christ ( which includes living by the Spirit within us ) - we can not experience the things of the kingdom that are available to us believers.

Scripture uses the same Greek word - " salvation, saved " = wholeness, preservation, keep safe, deliverance, make well - for both being saved from things in this life and for going to be with the Lord for eternity.

If we don't understand this difference we will continually be mis-applying scriptures that talk about "being saved here in this life from things" and "going to be with the Lord".

There is eternal salvation and there is manifestation of salvation from temporal things while on this earth. Confuse the two and we end up with a mixed up message of self-effort for going to heaven and only the blood of Jesus does that.

Jesus is either our Savior for going to be in heaven with Him or we are our own savior by helping Him. One is by grace through faith-righteousness - the other is works-righteousness.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In christian faith you cannot abandon moral law, without becoming lawless and the enemy
of the faith. You cannot equally say God does everything to save people, we are just passengers
and then have a mission to expose legalists, who are rotting the church, when that is impossible
by the original belief statement of how one is saved and kept. Somewhere people are lying.

For the sake of clarity, this makes no sense, can you explain.

How is waring against legalism (paul spent his whole Christian life doing this very thing) and saying god does EVERYTHING to save a person apposed?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

ok, it is time to put your money where your mouth is.. Tell the room what you believe.

You said.

Will they lose salvation if they do not?

So this means we can lose salvation?

So we can be disobedient and lose our salvation because of sin?
So a son who is born of blood, can lose his sonship, even though he still has his fathers blood in his veins?? And lose salvation?

Did I get you right, or did I slander you. at which case, you are free to correct me.
[SUB][/SUB]

God saved Israel. Nevertheless, He was displeased at their later lack of trust and let them die never receiving the promise.
Who was He displeased with? It was those He saved that He was later displeased with.
I am not trying to dissuade you from your belief, I am trying to get you to see that some do not see it as such a simple matter but they struggle with it more than you and take their areas of mistrust (Lord, I DO believe-help my unbelief!) very seriously and fear displeasing God by their unbelief.

 

[PinkDiamond]

For the sake of clarity, this makes no sense, can you explain.

How is waring against legalism (paul spent his whole Christian life doing this very thing) and saying god does EVERYTHING to save a person apposed?

I am confused too. I think he is trying to say that you can't have it both ways. That if you believe Christians can't lose their salvation or faith that you shouldn't be on a mission to root out legalists. Legalists can't rot or destroy the church because they would have no effect on those who have already been saved ( since we can't lose our salvation)?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God saved Israel. Nevertheless, He was displeased at their later lack of trust and let them die never receiving the promise.
Who was He displeased with? It was those He saved that He was later displeased with.
I am not trying to dissuade you from your belief, I am trying to get you to see that some do not see it as such a simple matter but they struggle with it more than you and take their areas of mistrust (Lord, I DO believe-help my unbelief!) very seriously and fear displeasing God by their unbelief.

Who was he displeased with?

those who complained from day one, Who never trusted God. who took his gifts, and complained about them, Who rejected Gods leader. Who talked arron into making an idol when moses was with God. Who refused to trust God and would rather go back to Egypt then to allow God to give them what he promised.

Sorry. But to try to relate these people who NEVER had faith in God. proven by their lack of works. with true believers in Christ? I can't do that..

there are many people who go to church, seem to play the game, but never had faith in God. does them not living up to some standard mean they lost salvation? or did it prove they were never saved to begin with, thus they never entered Gods rest.

I asked peter simple questions so we could discuss them. He refused.. like he has since day 1.

 

[PeterJens]

See. When Chester tells us we are wrong about his belief, do we act this way. Do we attack him, and say he is trying to just belittle us or attack us to get his own viewpoint across.

This is jut pure evil, and pride. and arrogant.

Why do people try to baby this man, He is a grown adult. and should be treated as one, After months of the same nonsense.

I believe in forgiveness, And I would be the first to forgive Peter (he is already forgiven) but to allow him to continue in sin, is doing the very thing he and his kind scream, That we allow and condone sin. Well it is time to stop condoning Peters sin and call sin for what it is.

Wooooooo. I am in sin, in pure evil, pride and arrogant. About what?

EG has tried this before, and you look under the bonnet, and there is no engine, nothing to
answer. For some reason he believes his emotional state.

What have I done?
1. Said God regards us as lost sheep.
2. Said we are saved through faith
3. Jesus empowers us to walk in righteousness, purity and love

But I am a works salvationist, a legalist and now evil and sinning.

Sin is an actual action that is definable and real.
Pride? I have faith in Christ as my Lord and saviour.
Arrogant? I believe Gods word and share it.

This is just a personal problem EG has with me because I got under his skin.
Sorry EG, but you are reacting to a style not content. Probably we are too alike, lol.
It is often the hardest to meet yourself on the other side of the argument.

But if I was a wreck on the ground, defeated and broken you would be happy.
But I am before my Lord, for He is Christ my saviour, and it is His reality I reflect.

God bless you my friend, and may you find His peace and love in your heart one day.

I suppose I am sinning because I believe Jesus helps us to walk as He walks, and I should
say it is only Christ doing it without my help or cooperation.
I should say Christ keeps me no matter what I do, and I am His no matter where I am.

But I regard this as a denial of the gospel and what Christ came to do in our lives.

But in love I can but walk, so Amen and God bless.

Baby this man. Now does this mean I should be shot...I am sure anger is being represented
here, as always...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am confused too. I think he is trying to say that you can't have it both ways. That if you believe Christians can't lose their salvation or faith that you shouldn't be on a mission to root out legalists. Legalists can't rot or destroy the church because they would have no effect on those who have already been saved ( since we can't lose our salvation)?

Maybe this is it? I pray he answers.

My answer if it is would be.

1. Legalists keep people from coming to God. because they teach people the only way to God is obedience and maintaining a certain lifestyle. and not the grace of God.

2. Legalists can talk a Christian into doubting their security, and I have seen many walk away from the church because of it (they took one of Gods soldiers out of the war, and they are now on the sidelines) not to mention. he has destroyed a life, which could have been richly blessed by God and only by Gods help in restoring them, can they hope to find that life God so deeply desire us to have.


while yes, it can not take away a persons salvation, legalism is very damaging to the church, Paul would not have faught it so hard in every one of his books if legalism was something we did not have to worry about.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Wooooooo. I am in sin, in pure evil, pride and arrogant. About what?

EG has tried this before, and you look under the bonnet, and there is no engine, nothing to
answer. For some reason he believes his emotional state.

What have I done?
1. Said God regards us as lost sheep.
2. Said we are saved through faith
3. Jesus empowers us to walk in righteousness, purity and love

But I am a works salvationist, a legalist and now evil and sinning.

Sin is an actual action that is definable and real.
Pride? I have faith in Christ as my Lord and saviour.
Arrogant? I believe Gods word and share it.

This is just a personal problem EG has with me because I got under his skin.
Sorry EG, but you are reacting to a style not content. Probably we are too alike, lol.
It is often the hardest to meet yourself on the other side of the argument.

But if I was a wreck on the ground, defeated and broken you would be happy.
But I am before my Lord, for He is Christ my saviour, and it is His reality I reflect.

God bless you my friend, and may you find His peace and love in your heart one day.

I suppose I am sinning because I believe Jesus helps us to walk as He walks, and I should
say it is only Christ doing it without my help or cooperation.
I should say Christ keeps me no matter what I do, and I am His no matter where I am.

But I regard this as a denial of the gospel and what Christ came to do in our lives.

But in love I can but walk, so Amen and God bless.

Baby this man. Now does this mean I should be shot...I am sure anger is being represented
here, as always...

see there you go lying again.

you being a legalist had nothing to do with why I said those things, and you know it, (so does everyone else. because I said what it was)

I said you were a sinner because you lied about the way myself and others do things.

Your the one with the vendetta Peter. You refuse to listen to anything, you think you know it all..

its on you bud..

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

but you just think a person can lose faith right?

That is different than saying we can sin our way out of salvation. Like others believe.

I think Chester might believe like I do, that the only thing that may lose ones salvation is unbelief/mistrust.
But it certainly isn't a simple thing to discuss. Because it is possible to be trusting in some areas and not in others.
And to compound the difficulty, it is possible to also believe we are in complete trust and then He shows us we were not...