Two useless/inappropriate/wrong accusations

[Grace777x70]

I think we've concluded the same thing but disagree on how one gets there.

I see what you're saying and appreciate you taking the time to explain. But I think what you're explaining here is "Gnosis"; that simply the *knowing* is sufficient for there to be a change of our position, "separating" of ourselves from our bodies. This is a slippery slope that leads to the gnostic understanding of the truth of Christ.

I agree with there being a circumcision of the heart, but if we follow the analogy of circumcision in those passages it means "to cut and expose", not "to sever or dismember". The circumcision of the heart describes exposing ones heart to God; an opening of the heart to his words so they can change our walk in life. It's not a separating of our hearts from our bodies, resulting in our hearts remaining holy while our body remains sinful. No that's duality.

Truly the old man is dead. But if I didn't explain the process of conforming to the image of Christ (i.e. what is also called "*learning* to walk by the spirit" like you say), I would've been accused of "sinless perfectionism" and "claiming I have no sin". And this is (I think) the crux of the OP; that there's a narrow path here, and if we don't see it we Err by straying too much to the right or to the left.

While I know you said you're not speaking of 2 selves (gnostic duality), without also explaining the action of overcoming the flesh along with having the knowledge of the truth, that's where we end up: gnosticism.

James 1:21-22
"So get rid of all the filth and evil in your lives, and humbly accept the word God has planted in your hearts, for it has the power to save your souls. Be doers of the word, and not hearers only. Otherwise, you are deceiving yourselves."

It's not simply about knowing, but also about action, else we're deceiving ourselves. We have to stop sinning.

1 John 2:6
"Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Jesus did."

"Should live". Christ had a pure heart obedient to God. So we must repent and not sin to live as Jesus did. That's the goal.

1 Peter 1:14-17
"As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:."

Holy in all we do, like Christ is holy, denying the evil desires we had in our former ignorance, because God judges every persons works.

1 John 2:29
"If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that DOES righteousness is born of him."

Those born of God DO right.

1 John 3:7
"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that DOES righteousness IS righteous, even as he is righteous."

Righteousness isn't a position/status, but a manifestation (i.e. wrought). A walk in the knowledge.

...not just knowing...

...not just doing...

...But knowing and doing.

It seems we are trying to say the same things somewhat although our definition of how the righteousness that God demands comes is miles apart.

Righteousness is a gift because we are in Christ ( Romans. 5:17 ) You seem to be saying we are righteous because we do righteous things - and thus that makes us righteous. That's not even remotely the gospel of the grace of Christ - that is law-based righteousness. Perhaps I am mis-reading you?

Knowing the truth about Christ's work for us does not make it gnostic nor is it saying that we are not responsible with what we do in these bodies although I can see where it is possible for some to think that.

Knowing is an important part of the process of coming to understand the spiritual realities that are in Christ. Here Jesus uses "know" and "believe" as a process to "seeing" these spiritual truths.

John 10:38 (KJV)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.


It seems that "believing" and "knowing" are interchangeable in that they both occur together and are needed.

1 John 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

As far as circumcision being an " to cut and expose" - I can't buy that theory in the context that you are referring to. We don't keep the old foreskin off of natural circumcision and we can't put it back on because it is dead and it gets thrown away.

The fact is that scripture is abundantly clear that we have a new heart now in Christ and this is not gnosticism - it's a spiritual reality we have in Christ.

As far as to walk as Jesus walked in 1 John 2:6 - it means to be dependent on Christ the same way that Jesus was dependent on His Father. Jesus said that He Himself did not do the works but His Father in Him was doing His works.

I suppose people could accuse Jesus of being gnostic now too because of His belief. That there was a gnostic duality about Him. That is sheer foolishness obviously but the principle still remains. Without Christ - we can do nothing.

I do believe walking as Jesus walked will manifest in an exchanged life as we are relying on His life in us.

Those born of God are the ones that are born again and their inner man is created in righteousness and holiness as Paul said in Eph.4. It is impossible for the new creation in Christ to sin as John shows in 1 John 3:9 and 5:18 and 1 Peter 1:23.

Righteousness is a gift - not a manifestation per se. Although there are fruits of righteousness which can be seen but that is having the cart before the horse.

But to say that righteousness is not a position or status in Christ is creating a works-based righteousness which is not the gospel of the grace of Christ.

I maintain that right believing in the gospel of the grace of Christ will manifest in doing good deeds. Doing good deeds by themselves does not make one righteous. Every religion in the world has "good righteous deeds" as their calling card for being and doing right things but it is not from God.

Just because they do righteous things - that does not make them righteous in the terms that is needed to be right before God. We need His righteousness which only comes by faith in what Christ has done. He has become our righteousness. Accept no substitutes.

I maintain that we preach and teach the gospel of the grace of Christ and it will bring forth the life of Christ that is already in us in our new creation in Him - it will bring forth much fruit and God will be glorified.

 

[heavenly_bound]

I agree with this. But that old man you speak of...is dead like you say. Crucified on the cross. And it's the daily renewing of our minds to that truth - that sin has no power over a dead body because a dead man can not sin anymore - that (should) produce the fruit of that truth, which is (eventually) a purely obedient heart exactly like Christ's. This is the natural conclusion of accepting the truth you've shared.

It's the power of faith in Christ: that (by faith) there are dead bodies walking all around on the earth right now quickened by the Spirit of the Living God. So *eventually* "the flesh" you've so perfectly described and explained, *must* no longer give birth to sin in this body (as a dead body can't give birth anymore). We must - by faith - truly believe this before the gift of immortality can be received. Surely "the flesh" will continue to tempt us like you've shared, but it will (eventually) remain barren.

Remember, Adam and Even had perfect bodies to start, and they also had the tree of life. The problem that caused their fall and corruption was not their bodies, but their heart. Their heart corrupted their bodies, and since then their children have been tempted by that corrupted body to sin. Slavery. So the heart must be perfected first, through the Grace of Christ by the daily renewal of our minds to the truth you've shared above, BEFORE our new bodies...else it simply would be the fall of Eden all over again..

Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."


...and only by the Grace of God is such possible. Christ's body had to die to satisfy the judgment on Adam's flesh that he had (by God's law), but because Christ never sinned he alone had the right to take back his life after that judgment. Now as the "new Adam" - and no longer having that judgment on *his* resurrected flesh - he could sire a new mankind, complete with a new Spirit they've never had. And all they have to do is truly truly believe that they are born anew, completely dying to their first family tree by faith. His seed is then implanted into their body ready to give birth to his glory when he comes.

If the son sets you free you are free in deed.

i do agree with what you say but not everything though!

 

[PeterJens]

While I know you said you're not speaking of 2 selves (gnostic duality), without also explaining the action of overcoming the flesh along with having the knowledge of the truth, that's where we end up: gnosticism.

Amen. But rather than fear this reality they appear to want to embrace it.

 

[PeterJens]

I wonder when people want to miss-represent others how they set about it.

I have found it surprising that those who I would have thought friends turn
innocent observations into obvious miss-representation.

I think fundamentally they believe I am being deceitful and lying.
The problem is this means they do not read what I am saying but suppose
other things that are not there. But this is how the enemy deceives us with
supposing things while ignoring the obvious and causing distrust and ill feelings
against the innocent.

In this maze the only way through is being as wise as snakes and as innocent
as doves. If you think I have deceived you, please tell me, because in all honesty
I only share what is on my heart and walk in the light.

Some have tried everything to trip me up, make me angry etc. which is odd for
believers but maybe not for those who accept they are fallen and sin is not an issue.

But I await the good heart of people, Gods blessing and Christs love to show.