Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[bluto]

Many have been given visions of the rapture and wasn't at the end of the tribulation as you proclaim, it happened alot sooner. Are you proclaiming those to be false visions.

Since prynce your making the claim that many have received visions that the rapture is before the end of the tribulation where is your "objective" proof? I'm not interested in "subjective" proof. The false prophet Joseph Smith at the age of 13 said God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him in a vision and told him that all the churches are corrupt so don't join any of them? How do you know he was telling the truth prynce?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[popeye]

Question to post trib rapture adherents:

What is the purpose of the GT ( or whatever the newest label is for the 7 year period of tribulation)

Specifically,what,in your minds,is accomplished by the beating of the church?

And what is heavens priority of the importance of the bride and groom?

 

[popeye]

Since prynce your making the claim that many have received visions that the rapture is before the end of the tribulation where is your "objective" proof? I'm not interested in "subjective" proof. The false prophet Joseph Smith at the age of 13 said God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him in a vision and told him that all the churches are corrupt so don't join any of them? How do you know he was telling the truth prynce?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Because it is easily confirmed in our many many verse,and postrib is not only impossible,it has no scriptural standing.

 

[CS1]

Since prynce your making the claim that many have received visions that the rapture is before the end of the tribulation where is your "objective" proof? I'm not interested in "subjective" proof. The false prophet Joseph Smith at the age of 13 said God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him in a vision and told him that all the churches are corrupt so don't join any of them? How do you know he was telling the truth prynce?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

very fare question I think

 

[popeye]

Do you post trib rapture advocates realize you have to literally make up stuff to compensate for Jesus words at the last supper.???

 

[popeye]

very fare question I think

We test visions,prophecy,etc against the bible.

 

[notuptome]

Sorry boys and girls but any assumptions about the tribulation based on the church are false. The tribulation is strictly a Jewish thing. The church is not appointed to wrath but Israel will be subjected to Gods wrath one last time before the Messiah they were expecting the first time comes to earth to rescue them.

Those who endure are Israel who lives through the tribulation. There will be tribulation age saints but the church age saints will already be with the Lord.

While these events effect the entire world they are centered on Jerusalem. Daniel prophesied to Israel not to the church. I cannot fathom why any church age saint would wish to endure the tribulation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Yahweh_is_gracious]

Anybody want to get in on the pool to figure out how may pages this debate-and-squabble will go on before it runs out of steam?

I'm going to say 30 pages.

 

[bluto]

Do you post trib rapture advocates realize you have to literally make up stuff to compensate for Jesus words at the last supper.???

Were making stuff up popeye! I still have not recieved a biblical answer of where you "insert" the pre-trib rapture anywhere in what Jesus said at Matthew 24? The question is at vs3, "When is Your coming and the end of the age?" No where in the chapter does Jesus indicate, "Before all these things take place please be advised that I will come for you so we can have the Lamb's supper and things in the world get worse just like in the days of Noah (vs37) and then "zap" your raptured?"

And btw, are you going to be a blessed slave working when Jesus comes popeye? Read Matthew 24:46, "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes." Or are you going to be saying, "Pass the salt and does anyone have a toothpick?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Chester]

PS: To discuss about this matter is according my meaning useless. Because you can find scripture for to defend the
position I believe, too. And in cc you will find threats for that.

Did you mean threads or threats? LOL!

 

[Quasar92]

Hello wolfwint,

There will indeed be Christian's during the great tribulation. They are introduced in Rev.7:9-17 as the saints who come out of the great tribulation, which is not the church, but those who will have become believers in Christ after the church has been gathered. Those who make it through the wrath of God and the beasts kingdom alive until Christ returns, including Israel, will be those who will repopulate the earth during the millennium. Scripture is very clear that there will be Gentile believers who survive. Below is just one example:

"He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore."

The above takes place after Christ returns to the earth to end the age and the on-set of the millennial period. If there were no believers who make it through until Christ returns to end the age, the scripture above couldn't take place if all believers were dead. Neither could the separation of the sheep and goats be fulfilled if there were no believers in Christ left alive at the end of the age.

The tribulation martyrs/saints were non-believers left on earth when all believers who ever lived, are gathered together and caught up to meet Jesus in the air, where He will take us all to heaven, as documented in Jn.13:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:17 and 2 thess.2:3 and 7-8. The Church age is over at this point. The term Christian was originally coined for this group.

The non-believers who are left behind, will be brought to the Lord by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists, God will place on the earth just prior to the seventh seal/first trumpet plague. In the same way He will place His two witness on earth from heaven in Rev.11. The tribulation martyrs will pay with their lives because of their witnessing for Jesus, during the great tribulation. The great multitude of Rev.7:9-17, is the result of the 144,000 Israelite ministry. Who will be translated back to heaven when their ministry is over, in Rev.14. Therefore, this group does not either belong to the Church, nor can they be called Christian, whis the title belonging to all Church members. As I said before, they will become ELECT of God, as will all the restored remnant of Israel, will be. Therefore, there will be no such thing as Christians on earth during the tribulation, until they return with Jesus in His second coming to the earth in Rev.19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Sorry boys and girls but any assumptions about the tribulation based on the church are false. The tribulation is strictly a Jewish thing. The church is not appointed to wrath but Israel will be subjected to Gods wrath one last time before the Messiah they were expecting the first time comes to earth to rescue them.

Those who endure are Israel who lives through the tribulation. There will be tribulation age saints but the church age saints will already be with the Lord.

While these events effect the entire world they are centered on Jerusalem. Daniel prophesied to Israel not to the church. I cannot fathom why any church age saint would wish to endure the tribulation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You are calling Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul all liars with the views you expressed in the above. Review post 53 for full support of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church.


Quasar92

 

[wolfwint]

Did you mean threads or threats? LOL!

Threads !!! lol

 

[notuptome]

You are calling Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul all liars with the views you expressed in the above. Review post 53 for full support of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church.


Quasar92

You make no sense.

I believe in a pre-trib rapture of the church. The seven years of the tribulation are appointed to Israel not the church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Yahweh_is_gracious]

Where is "7 years of tribulation" in the Bible? Maybe it's not in my particular translation. I'd really like to see where this belief comes from. Is it stated someplace? Is it something that is being inferred? Is this 7-year tribulation some sort of hocus-pocus with Daniel's 70th week? Is it a mash-up of parts of Daniel and parts of Revelation?

When did "tribulation" begin to mean the same thing as "wrath"? I understand that believers are not appointed to wrath, but where is it stated that believers are to be spared from tribulation? Again, maybe it's just not in my particular translation.

Just a few things these argumentative threads make me think about, not to mention things that make me giggle when I read the replies in these threads.

 

[TMS]

Actually there is much more scriptural support for Pre-Trib than for mid or post trib, And unless we make an allegorical interpretation of scripture. there is no scriptural support for Ammilenialism. or post millennialism. (so for these two we have a hermeneutic issue of how we interpret prophesy) so they can not declare anyone apposed to them wrong, who interpret prophesy different.

PS, I am not Pre-Trib, I am not decided, I feel like someo have more proof than others. but we will not know until it happens.

It does come down to interpretation in the end and there is arguments for both sides, but when i research the history and the making of the pre-trib theory and the number of assumptions that need to be made for it to work i'm convinced it is wrong.
If God wanted us to believe in a pre-trib theory it would have been written clearly in His word.
It is clear that Jesus will come and gather His saints in person and every eye will see him.

This is not a presumption..

1. every eye shall see him when He comes. It hard to not see lightning.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

2. The saved that are dead and those that are alive will meet the Lord in the air when He comes.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


3. He shall be seen with power and great glory when He comes, and gather the elect together.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

4. When Jesus comes the wicked will want to die. Want to hide from the face of Jesus.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

This isn't an assumption, it is how God described Jesus's coming and it is clear that the whole Earth will see Jesus and that it isn't going to be a secret.

You can twist scripture and presume that it means something else but be honest and ask yourself is their solid evidence when you take the presumption away.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Where is "7 years of tribulation" in the Bible? Maybe it's not in my particular translation. I'd really like to see where this belief comes from. Is it stated someplace? Is it something that is being inferred? Is this 7-year tribulation some sort of hocus-pocus with Daniel's 70th week? Is it a mash-up of parts of Daniel and parts of Revelation?

When did "tribulation" begin to mean the same thing as "wrath"? I understand that believers are not appointed to wrath, but where is it stated that believers are to be spared from tribulation? Again, maybe it's just not in my particular translation.

Just a few things these argumentative threads make me think about, not to mention things that make me giggle when I read the replies in these threads.

Greetings!

In Daniel 9:24 a decree is pronounced upon Israel and Jerusalem of seventy seven year periods, which is 490 years. The break down of that is that is as follows:

7 X seven years = To restore and rebuild Jerusalem

7 X six-two years = The Anointed One would be cut off (Christ crucified).

That accounts for sixty-nine of the seventy seven year periods, with the last seven years described as follows:

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him." - Dan.9:27

The "He" in the verse above would have to refer to the last person spoken of in the previous verse, which is "that ruler" of the people. Jesus also quoted from this scripture in Mt.24:15 referring to the abomination being set up in the holy place, which would be that room just outside of the holy of holies within the temple. Consequently, 30 something years after Jesus quoted this scripture, the temple was destroyed, providing no fulfillment of Dan.9:27.

* There has been no seven year covenant made with Israel which allows her to sacrifice

* There has been no abomination set up in the holy place, which causes the desolation

* Israel has not fled out into the desert as a result of that abomination being set up.

Since everything written in scripture must be fulfilled and nothing regarding Dan.9:27 has yet to take place, then it must still be a future event. The "He" of the verse is referring to that little horn of Daniel who speaks boastful words against God, which is referring to the beast of Rev.13:6 with the mention of the same person speaking boastful words against God and all those who dwell in heaven. Compare Dan.7:8,11 with Rev.13:6.

When did "tribulation" begin to mean the same thing as "wrath"? I understand that believers are not appointed to wrath, but where is it stated that believers are to be spared from tribulation? Again, maybe it's just not in my particular translation.

The word "tribulation" does not negate that period as also referring to the time of God's wrath. It will be tribulation that is being performed by God upon the inhabitants of the earth. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are the events that God is going to use to bring about his wrath and those will be carried out during that entire seven year period, with Christ returning sometime after the 7th bowl has been poured out. From the setting up of the abomination, which is in the middle of the seven years, until Christ returns 3 1/2 years later, this time is referred to as "tribulation, the great one." Regarding this time period, Jesus said that it would be a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. And if those days had not been shortened no one on earth would be left alive. The reason for this is because of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment in conjunction with the beasts kingdom and the threat he will be to all who remain faithful to Christ during that time and that because they will be an enemy of the beast and his kingdom.

All that said, being that the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are the wrath of God, and believers are not appointed to suffer that wrath, then the church must be removed prior to the 1st seal being broken. These are the "what must take place later" events that Jesus told John to write about. The "what must take place later" meaning what must take place after "what is now" i.e. after the church period.

In between right now and the time that Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, the wrath of God is guaranteed to take place. Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." Well, the church is still in the process of being built. Once it has been completed, the Lord will gather believers, both dead and living from off the earth and that 1st seal will be opened, which will initiate God's wrath, with the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments decimating the population of the earth and dismantling all human government. After the wrath of God has been completed by the pouring out of the 7th bowl, then Christ will return to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

I hope that this sheds some light on this subject.

Blessings in Christ

 

[Yahweh_is_gracious]

So it doesn't bother any of you pre-trib believers that you have a very significant period of time between the end of the 69th week in Daniel's prophecy and the 70th week? Just hit the "pause" button, eh?

As for the rest of it, it's almost verbatim what I've been told before when I've asked the same questions, and the answers just aren't satisfactory. I'm not going to mock you for your beliefs - in fact I'm glad you have them and feel strongly enough about them to be willing to defend them. I hope you're right in what you believe and that events play out as you say they will. I'll be sure to wave goodbye to all of you if I'm around to see you taken up.

 

[Bookends]

Actually there is much more scriptural support for Pre-Trib than for mid or post trib, And unless we make an allegorical interpretation of scripture. there is no scriptural support for Ammilenialism. or post millennialism. (so for these two we have a hermeneutic issue of how we interpret prophesy) so they can not declare anyone apposed to them wrong, who interpret prophesy different.

PS, I am not Pre-Trib, I am not decided, I feel like someo have more proof than others. but we will not know until it happens.

LOL, you don't follow your own rules of literal interpretation. So it's not allegorical to insert a 2000+ year gap between the 69th and 70th week, in which such a gap is mentioned NO where in scripture. One needs to be inserted to fit your eschatological system, take it out and your system falls apart.

 

[CharlieGrown]

LOL, you don't follow your own rules of literal interpretation. So it's not allegorical to insert a 2000+ year gap between the 69th and 70th week, in which such a gap is mentioned NO where in scripture. One needs to be inserted to fit your eschatological system, take it out and your system falls apart.

Times of the gentiles...