Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[Bookends]

For those who are interested in a fair but logical analysis of pre-trib, post-trib, and a'mil (realized millennium) may I suggest this youtube series link posted below. Anyone not willing to learn or open to changing their view need not listen, it would be a waste of your time. Meaning if your stuck in your own end time rut, no need to listen.

[video=youtube;XT1wmSlW_6g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT1wmSlW_6g&list=PLebLAvrUbivYszoFgkAKaEsp 2QnKXXzyF[/video]

 

[Bookends]

Times of the gentiles...

Where does it say "the times of the gentiles" in scripture is the gap your propose in Daniel 9?

 

[TMS]

i've asked about the gap between 69th and 70th week, and it's another pressumption that need to be believed or the whole theory fails apart.

 

[Quasar92]

You make no sense.

I believe in a pre-trib rapture of the church. The seven years of the tribulation are appointed to Israel not the church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Please accept my apology. I misunderstood what you wrote.


Quasar92

 

[presidente]

I don't see how pre-tribbers can reconcile II Thessalonians 1 with their view. It has Jesus coming back and giving the church rest at the same time he comes to execute judgement on them that believe not... when he comes to be glorified with the saints. Pre-trib does not have the church here when Jesus returns to execute judgment on the wicked. If we consider that 'day' in chapter 1 to refer to the same 'that day' in chapter 2, then Jesus won't come back until the man of sin is revealed.

 

[Bladerunner]

The good news is if the pre-trib rapture is wrong, serious christians will still see the other signs of the tribulation & the Antichrist & still prepare themselves.

I do have a question, though. Not all "tribulation saints" will die, neither those who live for Christ during the millenial reign. So, what happens to them? What will happen to the millenial converts who stand for Christ?

Hello Stephen63:

Your question is one that is asked frequently.

There are four classes Millennial Saints in the 1st resurrection: see (Rev. 20:4)

1. OT Saints (Raptured in 32 AD and Future)
2. The Church (Raptured in Future)
3. Martyred Saints (within the Tribulation)
4. Tribulation Saints (these lived through the Tribulations)
see (Rev. 20:4)

REV 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

to answer your second question? "What will happen to the millennial converts who stand for Christ."

Only UNBELIEVERS will DIE!,,,,,,There are no Millennial Saints or at least none mentioned! Tribulation Saints were in the first resurrection. Note: there is no mention of Jewish UNBELIEVERS so on UNBELIEVING GENTILES will Die.

Oh, You are given 100 years to convert to BELIEVER status or die.


For more info about the 1000 year reign refer to the last 9 chapters of Ezekiel.

 

[Bladerunner]

Where does it say "the times of the gentiles" in scripture is the gap your propose in Daniel 9?

Gap -->Daniel 9:26

"Times of Gentiles" Luke 21:24

 

[Bladerunner]

i've asked about the gap between 69th and 70th week, and it's another pressumption that need to be believed or the whole theory fails apart.

There is no presumption of the Gap. The 69 weeks end on the Day that Jesus Christ rides into Jerusalem. We are in the Gap Daniel 9:26 NOW!

Jesus crucified and the temple torn down within the Gap.

 

[Bladerunner]

I don't see how pre-tribbers can reconcile II Thessalonians 1 with their view.

It has Jesus coming back and giving the church rest at the same time he comes to execute judgement on them that believe not... when he comes to be glorified with the saints.

Pre-trib does not have the church here when Jesus returns to execute judgment on the wicked.

If we consider that 'day' in chapter 1 to refer to the same 'that day' in chapter 2, then Jesus won't come back until the man of sin is revealed.

When Jesus comes back in the "CLOUDS" (this is not the second coming) to rapture his Church away. Believers only thus they have been judged.

The rest, I do not understand what you are trying to say.

 

[Ahwatukee]

i've asked about the gap between 69th and 70th week, and it's another pressumption that need to be believed or the whole theory fails apart.

Hello TMS,

It is not a "presumption" but a conclusion based on comparing and cross-referencing scripture. It is important to understand who the "He" of the verse is and what "He" does according to the scripture. For example, those who make Christ as the "He" of Dan.9:27 err in that, it would make Jesus as the One who is setting up the abomination. In order to get rid of this truth, they interpret the scripture as not meaning that an abomination is being set up, but refer to it as the "overspreading of abominations." Yet, Jesus clarified what was being said in Dan.9:27 referring to it as the abomination being set up in the holy place as described in Mt.24:15.

Satan's game seems to be that, wherever those who belong to Christ proclaim the truth to reveal the lie of false teachings, he has his foot soldiers create an apologetic in order to counter that truth.

The fact is that, Dan.9:27 is about the seven year covenant being made, the setting of the abomination in the middle of it and the "He" of the verse being destroyed at the end of the seven years. Consequently, none of these events have taken place and therefore must be fulfilled at some future time. The only way to have them fulfilled is by symbolizing and spiritualizing the scriptures.

 

[Bladerunner]

Sorry boys and girls but any assumptions about the tribulation based on the church are false. The tribulation is strictly a Jewish thing. The church is not appointed to wrath but Israel will be subjected to Gods wrath one last time before the Messiah they were expecting the first time comes to earth to rescue them.

Those who endure are Israel who lives through the tribulation. There will be tribulation age saints but the church age saints will already be with the Lord.

While these events effect the entire world they are centered on Jerusalem. Daniel prophesied to Israel not to the church. I cannot fathom why any church age saint would wish to endure the tribulation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Hi Notuptome:

You are right that God appointed the Jews (that do not convert to Christianity and believe in Jesus Christ) to go through the Tribulations (both sections).

The Church was never given that edict but rather a deal that if you believed in Jesus Christ prior to your death or the rapture, you would wind up in Heaven with Jesus Christ.

Any Saints (believers) after this (rapture) will either have to DIE (probably beheaded, Rev 20:4) or Survive the Tribulations (both sections).

 

[GaryA]

Is this 7-year tribulation some sort of hocus-pocus with Daniel's 70th week?

"70th-week-of-Daniel hocus-pocus"

--- yep, that is the best description of it I have ever heard...

 

[Bladerunner]

The tribulation martyrs/saints were non-believers left on earth when all believers who ever lived, are gathered together and caught up to meet Jesus in the air, where He will take us all to heaven, as documented in Jn.13:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:17 and 2 thess.2:3 and 7-8. The Church age is over at this point. The term Christian was originally coined for this group.

The non-believers who are left behind, will be brought to the Lord by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists, God will place on the earth just prior to the seventh seal/first trumpet plague. In the same way He will place His two witness on earth from heaven in Rev.11. The tribulation martyrs will pay with their lives because of their witnessing for Jesus, during the great tribulation. The great multitude of Rev.7:9-17, is the result of the 144,000 Israelite ministry. Who will be translated back to heaven when their ministry is over, in Rev.14. Therefore, this group does not either belong to the Church, nor can they be called Christian, whis the title belonging to all Church members. As I said before, they will become ELECT of God, as will all the restored remnant of Israel, will be. Therefore, there will be no such thing as Christians on earth during the tribulation, until they return with Jesus in His second coming to the earth in Rev.19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5.


Quasar92

Quasar92

Now this is only an assumption but the Martyred Saints that miss (for one reason or another) are people who believe but in most cases will stipulate that "good deeds",etc. would get you into heaven instead of the "faith" only in Jesus Christ. These people will come to the realization that they were wrong and figure it out. Most likely they will be killed. Rev. 6 and the first thru fifth seal will kill many people around the world (see Rev 6:9). The tribulations Saints who live through the tribulations are as Rev. 20:4 states:"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."




I also would make the assumption that Matthew 24:22.."If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened. ", where the Bible is talking about the days of Man's Wrath during the first part of the tribulations. Most likely a Nuclear war!

 

[Bladerunner]

"70th-week-of-Daniel hocus-pocus"

--- yep, that is the best description of it I have ever heard...

why do you say that or are you just a troll?.

 

[Quasar92]

I don't see how pre-tribbers can reconcile II Thessalonians 1 with their view. It has Jesus coming back and giving the church rest at the same time he comes to execute judgement on them that believe not... when he comes to be glorified with the saints. Pre-trib does not have the church here when Jesus returns to execute judgment on the wicked. If we consider that 'day' in chapter 1 to refer to the same 'that day' in chapter 2, then Jesus won't come back until the man of sin is revealed.

Reference in the following pertains to Jesus second coming WITH His Church:

2 Thess.1:6 "God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you."


The precise timing of the pre-trib rapture of the Church:
2 Thess.2:1-8:

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thess.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.'Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.


The second coming of Jesus WITH His Church from Heaven:
[SUP]
Rev.19:11 [/SUP]I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. [SUP]12 [/SUP]His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. [SUP]13 [/SUP]He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.[SUP]14 [/SUP]The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean [The Church]. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[SUP][a][/SUP] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. [SUP]16 [/SUP]On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
king of kings and lord of lords.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, [SUP]18 [/SUP]so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of

all people, free and slave, great and small.”
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. [SUP]20 [/SUP]But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. [SUP]21 [/SUP]The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh."


Hope this helps.




Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Quasar92

Now this is only an assumption but the Martyred Saints that miss (for one reason or another) are people who believe but in most cases will stipulate that "good deeds",etc. would get you into heaven instead of the "faith" only in Jesus Christ. These people will come to the realization that they were wrong and figure it out. Most likely they will be killed. Rev. 6 and the first thru fifth seal will kill many people around the world (see Rev 6:9). The tribulations Saints who live through the tribulations are as Rev. 20:4 states:"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."




I also would make the assumption that Matthew 24:22.."If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened. ", where the Bible is talking about the days of Man's Wrath during the first part of the tribulations. Most likely a Nuclear war!

Those who are left behind at the time the Church is caught uo to Jesus are non-believers, or they too, would be raptured with the believing Church. The 144,000 Israelite evangelists will bring them to the Lord as recorded in Rev.7:1-17 They realize after they have been left behind, what they had heard about Jesus, that they did not pay any attention to, before the rapture, was true. When they finally received Jesus as their Lord, it was too late, and they will pay with their lives for it, as described in Rev.20:4


Quasar02.

 

[Bladerunner]

Hello Stephen63:

Your question is one that is asked frequently.

There are four classes Millennial Saints in the 1st resurrection: see (Rev. 20:4)

1. OT Saints (Raptured in 32 AD and Future)
2. The Church (Raptured in Future)
3. Martyred Saints (within the Tribulation)
4. Tribulation Saints (these lived through the Tribulations)
see (Rev. 20:4)

REV 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

to answer your second question? "What will happen to the millennial converts who stand for Christ."

Only UNBELIEVERS will DIE!,,,,,,There are no Millennial Saints or at least none mentioned! Tribulation Saints were in the first resurrection. Note: there is no mention of Jewish UNBELIEVERS so on UNBELIEVING GENTILES will Die.

Oh, You are given 100 years to convert to BELIEVER status or die.


For more info about the 1000 year reign refer to the last 9 chapters of Ezekiel.

I might add here that the 144,000 Jewish evangelist bring forth multitudes...See (Rev. 7:9-10), While these are Saints, they are to serve God in his Temples,,,,this includes the Martyred Saints. These Saints in addition are not crowned, have Palms in their hands, stand before thrones,serve Him Day and Night, was not recognized by John.

As a Contrast to the Tribulations Saints (all); the OT and Raptured Saints: they wear crowns, sit on thrones, reigns as Kings and Priests and did not go through the Tribulations.

NOTE: The final 2

 

[GaryA]

why do you say that or are you just a troll?.

No - I am not a troll.

I think that is the first time i have ever heard that phrase used in association with the 70-weeks-of-Daniel. It "came across" as very funny when I read it. I actually LOL --- really --- honest. No offense is really actually intended -- but -- maybe -- perhaps -- just a wee bit of a 'tease' toward a few of the staunchest of pre-tribbers on here...

 

[wolfwint]

Hello wolfwint,

There will indeed be Christian's during the great tribulation. They are introduced in Rev.7:9-17 as the saints who come out of the great tribulation, which is not the church, but those who will have become believers in Christ after the church has been gathered. Those who make it through the wrath of God and the beasts kingdom alive until Christ returns, including Israel, will be those who will repopulate the earth during the millennium. Scripture is very clear that there will be Gentile believers who survive. Below is just one example:

"He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore."

The above takes place after Christ returns to the earth to end the age and the on-set of the millennial period. If there were no believers who make it through until Christ returns to end the age, the scripture above couldn't take place if all believers were dead. Neither could the separation of the sheep and goats be fulfilled if there were no believers in Christ left alive at the end of the age.

Yes, I agree. I meant the world wide body of christ. The church! But maby in tribulation the believers are not called christians?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Yes, I agree. I meant the world wide body of christ. The church! But maby in tribulation the believers are not called christians?

Hello wolfwint,

Well, we know that the church will have been gathered prior to God's wrath. Also, all believers during that time are referred to as "Hagios" translated as "Saints" from Revelation chapter 4 onwards and prior to that in Chapters 1 thru three believers are referred to only as "Ekklesia" translated as "church." The elder in chapter 7 referred to them as that group of saints who come out of the great tribulation. I would say that saints is probably a good designation, because they are never referred to as the church.