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Why is it assumed by many here that Grace Folk live in blatant, unrepentant sin?
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I guess not. I don't assume that all hyper grace advocates live in blatant sin, but some do. That's my answer.
This is a real training need. After seeing the differences in skills or perceptions across
a congregation, a lot of people would not know how to handle someone in this state.
I wonder if the woman in question had been a mother, because most mothers would
have picked up some obvious desperate signals beyond the words. It is so tragic, I
would be wounded.
And the other problem is even with the best support and advice given, people still
take their lives, and scape goat responsibility on to others. I knew a guy who fell
apart because he got too close to addicts who exploited his good nature and care,
and drew him into their mental illness. I know how it can get to you.
So I would be very careful to talk about blame, the lost often are truly lost...
And that is the price of love, they will probably end up crucifying you.
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eph610
Guest
You brought blame into this I never did...The story is not at all about blame, if that's what you saw, that was not the intention.
The Church has the answers to every issue someone in the world has, but the church refuses to take their eyes of themselves to go and reach the world...which is why I believe the wealth teachings out there have polluted the Body...we teach how to take care of us and that leaves very little room to teach how to be a true world changer...
Here is the real tragedy of the story, there was a couple that was trying to get to that girl, who were both recovered and deliverer drug addicts and from the very same drug that girl was addicted to....The Pastor admonished the couple to stop interfering with HIS altar Pastor and how she was ministering to that person.....Because the Altar pastor had Bible School and had been a member of the church for years and "proven" her ability to deal with lost people....yeah she had all that but zero discernment from the Holy Ghost that the girl needed real help and probably from the former addicts....the altar pastor was spiritual and prideful....and could not relate to the addict....sadly, that is the norm and not the exception in USA churches today
not assigning blame on anyone....and yeah the addict might have ended up still killing herself, but to see spiritual issues one must see spiritually and to do that we must have eyes off ourselves...our hearts must break for what breaks God's heart and stop being little spoiled brats of God always confessing for the blessings that I need.
You constantly accuse others of slander when others expose your false doctrine and hypocrisy. Even when I provide proof of your own words you call it slander. But you in the above just slandered me by saying I preach a false doctrine of "sinless perfection in the flesh" and you also slandered me and said that I do in fact sin all the time.
So if these things are "fact" and not just "slander" then surely you can show us some proof where I preach "sinless perfection in the flesh" and also the proof that I do in fact sin all the time as you so falsely accuse.
Again, when you cannot provide any proof, then again we will know you are nothing more than a liar and false accuser who slanders others who expose your own hypocrisy.
It has been proven many times in your deceitful posts that you do not post the whole thing in context.
People have asked you numerous times have you ever sinned and do you in fact still sin. And you have never answered and just reply "Whosoever sins of the devil and not of God".
You deny by your continued avoidance of the truth. Just be honest and tell us you do still sin like the rest of us. Many people on CC have asked you this and yet you have just skirted the issue and never once been honest with them.
Your deceitful posts taking things out of context is sinning.....and yet you think this is ok. So, just about every day you are on CC here - you are in fact sinning. Many of us have had to just ignore you because of your behavior even after we have asked for you to stop it.
I'm just going to have to put you on ignore because until you repent and start walking in love and respect with others in the body of Christ - there is no recourse left but to apply Romans 16:17 - because 1 Cor.15:33 is the next thing...then the reality of being in a Hebrews 12:15 situation.
You constantly accuse others of slander when others expose your false doctrine and hypocrisy. Even when I provide proof of your own words you call it slander. But you in the above just slandered me by saying I preach a false doctrine of "sinless perfection in the flesh" and you also slandered me and said that I do in fact sin all the time.
So if these things are "fact" and not just "slander" then surely you can show us some proof where I preach "sinless perfection in the flesh" and also the proof that I do in fact sin all the time as you so falsely accuse.
Again, when you cannot provide any proof, then again we will know you are nothing more than a liar and false accuser who slanders others who expose your own hypocrisy.
There is something drastically wrong with this behavior that we have seen now for a year. To some people, it has been longer.
When someone never talks about Jesus and His love and grace but in all posts there is nothing but condemnation, demonic, death, sin and accursedness and evil and hatred - there is something wrong.
The gospel of the grace of Christ is never spoken of - the Lord Jesus and His beauty is never spoken about. All this speaks volumes to me.
Jesus in His own words had this to say about "this spirit".
Luke 9:54-56 (NASB)
[SUP]54 [/SUP] When His disciples James and John saw this, they said, "Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?"
[SUP]55 [/SUP] But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of;
[SUP]56 [/SUP] for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them."
I was just going to use 1 Peter 2:1-2, but since your post was about the context of posts, I am posting the whole thing.
The only malice I see on this thread, is people who imply because I believe in obeying God and repenting of my sin, I am a "legalist" and perhaps not even saved!
I have never assumed anyone here lives a blatant, sinful life. Because I have never met anyone in person, followed them around to see if they bear fruit, or if they live sinful lives. Perhaps they do, and perhaps they don't!
Perhaps the people saying we need to repent and confess our sins, also live blatant sinful lives? I doubt it, but again, I don't know them personally. I remember following Jimmy Swaggart in the early 1980's and being stunned not only at the extent of his depravity, but that he also refused correction from the denomination he had put himself under. Who knew, someone who preached against sin, was consorting with prostitutes? And he was Arminian and preached constantly against sin.
I would have been delighted to hear the testimonies of those hypergrace people and all the sins God delivered them from. I would have loved to have heard of the on-going grace and mercy of God in their lives.
Instead, I find this thread degenerating into posts about how bad the "legalists" are, and how HG people do repent, except they don't. Kind of like those conflicting videos of Joseph Prince, who sometimes says we don't have to confess and sometimes we do. I call that "double minded."
Well, let me assure you, I am saved! I continue to follow Jesus, and he leads and guides me by the power of His Holy
Spirit in my heart and life. Part of that is showing me positive things I can do in my life to keep growing, and part of that is conviction for sin, and confessing and repenting of it.
This is a theological discussion. I would love to see some Scriptures from the hypergrace people showing that healing is in the atonement. But no, no one seems to do that. I would love to see some verses stating that we can rejoice for all Christ has done and is going to do, in our lives. But no! It is all about the point in time when we were justified, and how we just need to claim and confess our righteousness and all is well. Never a word about how God uses ALL THINGS for good! And that is in the middle of a passage about the stages of our Christian walk. So he uses all things to change and transform us! Even sickness, poverty, and Internet forums where people twist the Bible and use it to their own liking.
I know I have learned so much about the hypergrace heresy, and how easy it is to get ensnared in this lie. That makes these discussions very fruitful for me. Because once again, God has been talking to me, making me dig deep into scripture and find out why this heresy is so dangerous.
Bruce, since you have posted 1 Peter 1:1-2 about what seems like 100 times lately, why don't you give up the sanctimonious diatribe, and focus on discussing the Bible and theology. Because slandering people back is kind of immature don't you think?
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eph610
Guest
.I think he had only some fruit or none at all....Alcoholism and any form of substance abuse is all about self...you have no room for fruit of the Spirit in these cases...another thing I picked up on years ago was his pride....when I see ministers with pride....they are not faking anything, because they don't have it...they have deception and think they are faking it....but nah....I know die hard Atheists that have love, but not the fruit of the spirit of love....true fruit cannot be faked....
This will cause a stir and might even get nasty, but I know many tares that call Jesus....Jesus, savior, friend, The Lamb and many names but one....LORD.....If you ask them is Jesus Lord...They change the subject or run away or oh wow, look at the time....gotta run Pastor...and you never see them again....or they stay and play church....I have been bold enough through the power of the HOly Ghost to ask one or 2 to leave the church....I just simply state we both know whats up...yep we do and they leave....
They are given away as a tare because 1 Cor 12.3 says:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit
Discernment comes from knowing Good and evil from the meat of the word and is something we don't preach, teach or mentor people on any more...that one verse has spared me heartache and headaches with tares or self professed Christians all the time....It is a standard question I ask people when they call me trying to schedule a meeting at our church and want to preach....It is not shocking by any means and rather sad that there are a few modern day self appointed 5 fold gifts who cannot emphatically, boldly proclaim and without hesitation yes sir.....Jesus is Lord!
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
I am sorry, I know you did not see blame, but that is the first thing that comes to mind.
But you see the failure to understand and how church spiritualise a complex support situation.
And as you point out, there is some miss-understanding and discernment problems.
Christians easily get pompous, and so quickly are totally out of their depth.
It is also why sometimes sharing theology is not appropriate with people from some backgrounds
because everything is filtered one way and to another mean something else.
It can be why the internet medium is just not good, because it lacks so much humanity.
God bless you for your insight, seeing the need is a first step, how to help meet
it is maybe a next.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
No, I think Paul is making a statement, We have sinned, and fall short. Short of what? The glory of God. Or gods standard, which is perfection.
It is not a condition, it is a standing. When we put our selves u to Gods standard. We fall well short of it. James said if we break the LEAST of the law we are guilty of the whole law (we fall short.)
Sin is the result of putting self over God and others. And acting on it, Or (like lust in our hearts) focusing on it..
Angela - your opinion is just as much worth as everyone else's in the body of Christ. I have been discussing the bible - you just don't agree with what some people say and that is fine.
Insulting others and calling them names and being condescending on them along with malice and being deceitful in posts are NOT discussing the bible. Many also will not fall for those that think they are superior to others and try to "lord it over their faith".
People are allowed to agree to disagree without all the malice and condescending and mocking posts towards those that differ.
As far as scriptures on healing in the atonement - go to "You are clean" thread and it is discussed there. People are allowed to have a different opinion too without mocking others and being condescending and exhibiting malice to those that have a different view.
As far as "supposed God" showing you that hyper grace as is properly taught is heresy is sheer nonense nd it is just a product of it going againgst your church teachings or what you perceive is being said. I have seen you continually mis-represent what is said - so you don't know what is even the truth is - or you are just blind to it.
I have never seen anyone question your walk with the Lord and in fact I know that many pray for you as I do.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Which is why fruit hunting is a poor and often misleading guide of determining who is saved and who is not saved.
By Grace through Faith and not of works, lest any should boast. It is the Gift of God.
Answers in Christianity are really easy. You just say 'The Lord Jesus Christ' and you are correct 99.9% of the time.
You cannot fake the spirit of a person within. You cannot fake a lack of love or empathy.
When Jesus was talking about fruit, he used figs and grapes as things that taste nice
with thistles and thornbushes that hurt you if you get too close.
This is about snide comments, sarcasm, hurtful remarks, back biting, bitterness, running
people down. A lot of "senior" pastors, spiritual leaders are known as tyrants, and if you
cross them, you are roasted. I think this is the fruit Jesus was talking about.
6 Then King Rehoboam took counsel with the old men, who had stood before Solomon his father while he was yet alive, saying, "How do you advise me to answer this people?"7 1 Kings 12
And he said to them, "What do you advise that we answer this people who have said to me, 'Lighten the yoke that your father put on us'?"12 Chronicles 10:
what good is advise, or advise. who came to lighten this yoke. etc
For God So Loved the World
16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.John 3: You Must Be Born Again
0 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."
just by reading the last line of the last quote, Acts 15: The Jerusalem Council tells it own story.
who can advise , about the thing that you can see with your own eyes, or even google it.
Job 40:
1 And the LORD said to Job:
2 "Shall a faultfinder contend with the Almighty?
He who argues with God, let him answer it."Job 40:
2 "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Dress for action like a man;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.
4 "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements---surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
7 when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 "Or who shut in the sea with doors
when it burst out from the womb,
9 when I made clouds its garment
and thick darkness its swaddling band,
10 and prescribed limits for it
and set bars and doors,
11 and said, 'Thus far shall you come, and no farther,
and here shall your proud waves be stayed'?
12 "Have you commanded the morning since your days began,
and caused the dawn to know its place,
13 that it might take hold of the skirts of the earth,Job 38
who can give define correctly , what you can read. lol
And he said to them, "What do you advise that we answer this people who have said to me, 'Lighten the yoke that your father put on us'?"12 Chronicles 10:
what good is advise, or advise. who came to lighten this yoke. etc
For God So Loved the World
16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.John 3: You Must Be Born Again
0 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."
just by reading the last line of the last quote, Acts 15: The Jerusalem Council tells it own story.
who can advise , about the thing that you can see with your own eyes, or even google it.
Job 40:
1 And the LORD said to Job:
2 "Shall a faultfinder contend with the Almighty?
He who argues with God, let him answer it."Job 40:
2 "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Dress for action like a man;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.
4 "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements---surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
7 when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 "Or who shut in the sea with doors
when it burst out from the womb,
9 when I made clouds its garment
and thick darkness its swaddling band,
10 and prescribed limits for it
and set bars and doors,
11 and said, 'Thus far shall you come, and no farther,
and here shall your proud waves be stayed'?
12 "Have you commanded the morning since your days began,
and caused the dawn to know its place,
13 that it might take hold of the skirts of the earth,Job 38
who can give define correctly , what you can read. lol
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Christianity is always more about where the rubber meets the road than the arguments we have about how we get that rubber down.
I know you know that Angela.
And I hope some of my posts haven't gotten too judgemental or condescending towards 'legalists'. Its so easy to fall into that.
The worse fruit that I have seen have been from some of those that espouse that we are to walk in righteousness and purity...go figure...
Walking by the spirit will produce good fruit but good fruit cannot be "mandated". It is a "fruit" that grows from the "sap" of the life of the plant not something that we ourselves produce. We are the branch - Jesus is the Vine - without Him we can do nothing.
Preach and teach the grace of Christ and the gift of righteousness and the nutrients we need to grow will be there. It is always about beholding the glory of Christ that allows the Holy Spirit to transform us.
Walking by the spirit will produce good fruit but good fruit cannot be "mandated". It is a "fruit" that grows from the "sap" of the life of the plant not something that we ourselves produce. We are the branch - Jesus is the Vine - without Him we can do nothing.
Preach and teach the grace of Christ and the gift of righteousness and the nutrients we need to grow will be there. It is always about beholding the glory of Christ that allows the Holy Spirit to transform us.
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Matthew 7: Judging Others1 "Judge not, that you be not judged.2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye?5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.6 "Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.Matthew 7: Judging Otherswho appointed us judge of an other human. because if you don t understand what hypocrite means you will never understand 42 And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead.43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."Acts 10if jesus is telling the jewish people, and peter is telling the gentiles. is there a lesson to be learned. .8 Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins, 1 Peter 4: Stewards of God's Grace
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