Why is it assumed by many here that Grace Folk live in blatant, unrepentant sin?
- Thread starter JGIG
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We are saved by grace through faith. I am not sure how it gets twisted to say anything else. Having faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross, as a propitiatory payment for the sins of the whole world, includes me and anyone else who believes.
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let the one who hears say, "Come!" Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let the one who hears say, "Come!" Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
Y
Yahweh_is_gracious
Guest
...probably because there is a nasty brand of modern Christianity that convinces people that so long as they believed the words in that cute little Sinner's Prayer(tm), that as long as they are "sorry" for all their future sins, then it's quite alright to keep living like the rest of the world as long as your butt warms a pew on Sunday and you sprinkle some folding money into the collection plate as it passes your way.
Grace vs. Works is one of my favorite soap operas to watch around here. It always descends into a mud fight.
Grace vs. Works is one of my favorite soap operas to watch around here. It always descends into a mud fight.
I think people say that because our carnal mind that is not renewed to the truths of the grace of Christ automatically think that. If all of our sins are forgiven...what is to stop us from sinning all we want?
Can we really trust the Holy Spirit within us to lead us? Can we really trust the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus? The law of love?
Sin changes our perspective on things and causes us to not look at our Father in the right light of who He truly is. ( The same as Adam and Eve did when they hid from Him even though He was still coming to visit with them and He still took care of them )
Sin also affects our ability to have harmonious relationships with others and it is a bad witness for the Lord Jesus.
We chose to live holy lives because we are just being who we truly are in Christ - not to maintain right standing with God. This living good holy lives creates right relationships with people, it will not give our enemy an influence in our lives and it is a good witness to the world.
Your true identity is not defined by your struggles, mistakes, or sinful actions. These are all confined to the flesh and are the works of the flesh as Paul said. Who you are is defined by your new birth in Christ. You are who you are by His grace and life in you!
Behavioral issues are usually the result of trying to live under the law in some form. Once you understand you are completely accepted and sin free forever in Jesus in your inner man created in righteousness and holiness - and that this is your permanent state for all eternity in Christ - the behavioral issues will fall off of our lives like dead leaves.
The "sap" of His life in and through us transforms us outwardly as we look to Jesus. 2 Cor. 3:17-18
Can we really trust the Holy Spirit within us to lead us? Can we really trust the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus? The law of love?
Sin changes our perspective on things and causes us to not look at our Father in the right light of who He truly is. ( The same as Adam and Eve did when they hid from Him even though He was still coming to visit with them and He still took care of them )
Sin also affects our ability to have harmonious relationships with others and it is a bad witness for the Lord Jesus.
We chose to live holy lives because we are just being who we truly are in Christ - not to maintain right standing with God. This living good holy lives creates right relationships with people, it will not give our enemy an influence in our lives and it is a good witness to the world.
Your true identity is not defined by your struggles, mistakes, or sinful actions. These are all confined to the flesh and are the works of the flesh as Paul said. Who you are is defined by your new birth in Christ. You are who you are by His grace and life in you!
Behavioral issues are usually the result of trying to live under the law in some form. Once you understand you are completely accepted and sin free forever in Jesus in your inner man created in righteousness and holiness - and that this is your permanent state for all eternity in Christ - the behavioral issues will fall off of our lives like dead leaves.
The "sap" of His life in and through us transforms us outwardly as we look to Jesus. 2 Cor. 3:17-18
P
Persuaded
Guest
He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours
only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
*When you were dead in your sins and in the
uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive
with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled
the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us
and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.
*Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those
who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus
the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free
from the law of sin and death.
*For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--
and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
not by works, so that no one can boast.
only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
*When you were dead in your sins and in the
uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive
with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled
the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us
and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.
*Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those
who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus
the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free
from the law of sin and death.
*For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--
and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
not by works, so that no one can boast.
Thank you for your reply, but you didn't answer the question.
The folks who are daily accused here are pointing readers here to Christ, His Work, and who we are in Him. We take hit after hit, accusation after accusation, and return with pointing to Christ, His Work, and who we are in Him - and then demonstrate how that keeps us from sinning, not how we feel like it gives us permission to sin!
We're not 'pew warmers', but have demonstrated that we have a deep and lasting relationship with God in Christ, are seeing good Fruit produced by His Spirit working in our lives, and demonstrate that we know the Scriptures.
We are not preaching that sinning is okay - at all - but that sin is dumb and destructive, harmful to us and to those around us. If you're in sin, stop it!
Clearly, we are not aligned with the example you lay out above, so I'll again ask the question:
Why is it assumed by many here that Grace Folk live in blatant, unrepentant sin?
-JGIG
C
CharlieGrown
Guest
So do you think it's a way that they attempt to take the focus off of their doctrine, knowing that they are claiming one thing but living another?
-JGIG
And yet when pressed they always have to admit that they continue sin while they go around condemning those who continue to sin, since they know very well that If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
For the same reason that people that believe in obedience are seen as legalistic and are trying to work their way to heaven.
No one should judge any one.
To answer the question because there are people out there that do believe that because of the grace that Jesus gives they can continue in sin, some people tend to generalise and apply that to all grace folk.
No one should judge any one.
To answer the question because there are people out there that do believe that because of the grace that Jesus gives they can continue in sin, some people tend to generalise and apply that to all grace folk.
G
Gr8grace
Guest
Simple and to the point. And correct.
They need to build their subjective scale in order to be good enough.
And it is a smoke screen for the real problem..............the majority are counting on their sinning less for their salvation.
It's because of man-made religion has a stronghold over our minds. The number 1 enemy of the Lord Jesus Christ is the Christian religion. The message of the gospel of the grace of Christ exposes this religion for what it is and it makes people angry.
Sometimes we think we are "defending the faith" but in reality we are "defending our traditions and church upbringing teachings".
The established church for 100 years wanted to kill Martin Luther because he said "The just shall live by faith". it went against the church teachings and exposed it for what it really was.
Religious zeal wants to kill those that stand against it. The law-keeping Jews killed Jesus. The religious people stoned Stephen. The religious Saul - blameless as to the righteousness of the law of Moses - killed Christians because of his religious zeal "for God". The catholic church wanted to kill Luther and others because of their religious zeal.
As it says in Galatians 4 - the son of the flesh ( self-effort - Ishmael ) persecuted the son of the free ( grace - Isaac ) and Paul says it is still happening to this day.
For those interested in this subject...this is a great video talking about why the gospel of the grace of God is being attacked. Interesting this video was before the "hyper-grace" term being used in a disparaging way to discredit the gospel.
[video=vimeo;11804054]https://vimeo.com/11804054[/video]
Sometimes we think we are "defending the faith" but in reality we are "defending our traditions and church upbringing teachings".
The established church for 100 years wanted to kill Martin Luther because he said "The just shall live by faith". it went against the church teachings and exposed it for what it really was.
Religious zeal wants to kill those that stand against it. The law-keeping Jews killed Jesus. The religious people stoned Stephen. The religious Saul - blameless as to the righteousness of the law of Moses - killed Christians because of his religious zeal "for God". The catholic church wanted to kill Luther and others because of their religious zeal.
As it says in Galatians 4 - the son of the flesh ( self-effort - Ishmael ) persecuted the son of the free ( grace - Isaac ) and Paul says it is still happening to this day.
For those interested in this subject...this is a great video talking about why the gospel of the grace of God is being attacked. Interesting this video was before the "hyper-grace" term being used in a disparaging way to discredit the gospel.
[video=vimeo;11804054]https://vimeo.com/11804054[/video]
Y
Yahweh_is_gracious
Guest
I had typed out a reply, and when I hit the "post quick reply" button, my browser froze. Probably divine intervention.
I answered the question posed in the exact manner I wanted to and worded it exactly as I intended. You read more into it than was there and you allowed what I wrote to invoke an emotional response. Tsk, tsk, tsk.
You are right about one thing though - we are NOT aligned. I hope we never are.
P
Persuaded
Guest
Not always.
They are trying to live without sin so as not to lose their salvation or narrow their definition of sin so as to convince them self that they do not sin.
They can not accept our stand of eternal security of the spirit that still has to live in and deal with a fleshly body that still sins from time to time and will do so until it dies or is changed at the coming of our Lord.
We understand that the Holy Spirit that lives in each true believer will convict us of that sin and will lead us to repentance.
They just don't seem to be able to grasp that simple truth that is so plainly taught in the Scripture.
I can't explain why. My thought is to just keep going and do what you feel is right. God knows your heart. I've been called a hippie idiot a lot in my life, oh well God knows my heart. I am kind of a hippie, except I shower, but call me names, I live the way I feel is right. God Bless.
P
Persuaded
Guest
There are people out their that CLAIM salvation and continue to live in sin.
There are also people out their that have a FALSE assurance of salvation.
We all need to understand that many have no clue what salvation or Christianity really is.
Hebrews clearly teaches that God will chastise His children.
A person that lives in unrepentant sin and does not feel God's chastisement should seriously check their true standing before God.
Grace Folk believe in obedience. And we don't see that as legalism, we see it as, well, obedience! We obey because of who we are in Christ - we love others as He has loved us, and love fulfills the Law. If we are walking in love we are not stealing, committing adultery, lying, etc. It is the Fruit of God's Spirit working in us, not what we have to do to be in Christ.
What people?
We who post on this forum are not random, unknown people 'out there'.
Many of us have been here for several years and have been constisent in our demeanor and in communicating what we believe and why.
I'm asking why it's assumed that those of us on this forum are living in blatant, unrepentant sin.
-JGIG
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1Co 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
by being washed, sanctified and justified you no longer do the sins that Paul lists.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
If your lead by the Spirit you will not do the things of the flesh and will have the fruits of the Spirit.
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1Co 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
by being washed, sanctified and justified you no longer do the sins that Paul lists.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
If your lead by the Spirit you will not do the things of the flesh and will have the fruits of the Spirit.