Why is it assumed by many here that Grace Folk live in blatant, unrepentant sin?

PeterJens · Oct 20, 2016

Interesting observation. My experience has been nothing predicts whose heart has
been touched and who has not. Judas was only known to Jesus, the rest had no clue,
and Jesus is the end says it does not matter, just observe and listen to those with a
good heart.

It is Jesus who is our guide and Lord. Friends and foe are often not where you first
realise. But we know the way to be, Halleluyah, God truly loves us in Christ.

And God blesses no matter what, and His people are everywhere, and turn all things
to His purposes.

FlSnookman7 · Oct 20, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

The new creation that I am, the true identity of my being since I was saved DOES NOT SIN. This flesh and soul may still sin but that is NOT who I am any longer. I am a new creation IN CHRIST. In Christ is zero sin. Once I am free of this flesh then the real,true me will be all I am. It is faith in the fact that I am indeed a new,sinless creation in Christ that is the entire basis of the good news Jesus gave paul. It is faith that while my flesh may sometimes win, that is no longer who I am. This is the gospel that many humans find so impossible to believe. 1 John 4:17 says not only am I to have boldness in the day of judgement but that I am as Christ is here in this world. Paul says time and again that the struggle those who are saved face every day is not something to be hidden away but rather it is evidence of our salvation. I know how difficult it is to believe not what we think or feel but to instead to believe we are who God says we are. I too struggled with that truth and attacked anyone who spoke it just like so many here do. It is a hard thing indeed to put aside our ego and pride and admit that it is not what we do or do not do that saves us but rather it is Jesus and only Jesus who can save us.
I have avoided posting about this for some time because I know that none are so blind as they who refuse to see. Until God removes the scales from the eyes of those who find comfort in religion, they do not and can not and will not see. That being the case i will still never shy away from the truth no matter how unpopular it may be. No accusations here, no hate, just truth and love. Shalom.

PeterJens · Oct 20, 2016

Spirituality is often not about the battle but how you react to the battle.
Jesus has won, heaven is assured, we are just witnesses to His work in our
hearts. Some take it to heart too much, because always the lost will be lost
they will see things stuck as they are.

But the Lord uses everything, so rejoice in what he brings to help us grow.
Nothing is without purpose, but we will not see this truly until we meet Him
face to face. I am staggard always by His work and how true He is to His
word. Amen

Grace777x70 · Oct 20, 2016

FlSnookman7 said:

Great post and that is the whole essence of the grace message. It is all about what Christ has already done.

Knowing the truth about Christ and His finished work for us - we behold the glory of the Lord as in a mirror and the Holy Spirit transforms us to be outwardly who we are now in Christ. Our minds get renewed. Romans 12:2

This releases the life of Christ in us to be who we are in our new creation and this manifest in loving others and letting the life of Christ shine to those in the word that are hurt and dying.

Some aspects of the message of the gospel of Christ goes against what some of us have been taught in our church upbringing and teachings and the natural inclination is to be against anything that sounds "different".

I will give you my testimony of what the Lord has done when He revealed to me my complete dependence on the gospel of the grace of Christ.

He has changed my mind ( As, only God can give true repentance ) on how I view a lot of things concerning Him and my life in Christ and of course that means all kinds of different sin - for "whatsoever is not of faith is in fact sin ".

If people feel the need to castigate what the Lord has done in my life - then so be it. I am not denying Christ in me and what He has done. I am not ashamed of the gospel - for in it is the power of God for real salvation.

I have a great passion for Christ!..here is what knowing Him because of the revelation of the gospel of the grace of Christ has done for me.

I was praying one morning and thinking about how the grace of Christ has affected me. I had the scripture come up in my spirit where the Pharisees were arguing about whether a man was born blind or not after Jesus healed him.

Of course the Pharisees were trying to discredit the message of Jesus. The man said.." All I know is that I was born blind but now I see."

This is what the gospel of the grace of Christ has done in my life:

I realize that these beliefs in the grace of God....especially the acceptance grace, repentance from dead works and the total forgiveness that Jesus bought and paid for with His blood....that these can be offensive to our religious beliefs and what we have been taught in church. (they were initially to me as well )

This gospel of the wondrous grace of Christ has had a beautiful affect on me. I am more in love with Jesus and the Father more then ever....in love with studying His word....praying in the spirit constantly with a heart full of joy!

This gospel has given me a compassion for other people and to reach out in love to them. To give more than I ever have with a heart full of love.

To live a holier life in Him...which is not only living separate from the "biggie sins" but everything that He reveals about anything that is contrary to life and His nature that is in me....this has led me to be a witness of the life and love of our Lord in me.

If these are the horrible fruit of the grace of Christ in me....I want more!.....give me more hyper grace please my Lord and God!

I am living a much fuller life now, more deeply in love with Jesus and the Father then ever before or ever dreamed was possible and I am just starting.

I am free from the horrible religion of self-effort, having the love of God pour out in me to help others now that I understand the grace that is in Christ then I did when I was doing the self-performance based gospel ( which is not the gospel )

I was blind but now I see. I see Jesus and His finished work for me!

It will always be in eternity "Worthy is the Lamb"..

It will never be.."Worthy is the Lamb......and me..because I did my own D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness to help Jesus out"

It has always been about Jesus and Him alone and it will always remain that way for all eternity.

PeterJens · Oct 20, 2016

FlSnookman7 said:

The new creation that I am, the true identity of my being since I was saved DOES NOT SIN. This flesh and soul may still sin but that is NOT who I am any longer. I am a new creation IN CHRIST. In Christ is zero sin. Once I am free of this flesh then the real,true me will be all I am. It is faith in the fact that I am indeed a new,sinless creation in Christ that is the entire basis of the good news Jesus gave paul. It is faith that while my flesh may sometimes win, that is no longer who I am. This is the gospel that many humans find so impossible to believe. 1 John 4:17 says not only am I to have boldness in the day of judgement but that I am as Christ is here in this world. Paul says time and again that the struggle those who are saved face every day is not something to be hidden away but rather it is evidence of our salvation. I know how difficult it is to believe not what we think or feel but to instead to believe we are who God says we are. I too struggled with that truth and attacked anyone who spoke it just like so many here do. It is a hard thing indeed to put aside our ego and pride and admit that it is not what we do or do not do that saves us but rather it is Jesus and only Jesus who can save us.
I have avoided posting about this for some time because I know that none are so blind as they who refuse to see. Until God removes the scales from the eyes of those who find comfort in religion, they do not and can not and will not see. That being the case i will still never shy away from the truth no matter how unpopular it may be. No accusations here, no hate, just truth and love. Shalom.

Praise the Lord you know Christ and His power in your life.

Angela53510 · Oct 20, 2016

FlSnookman7 said:

Oh woe! (I had to separate your post into paragraphs, as I could not read it otherwise! I hope I broke it up at the right places!)

So dualism! "My identity does not sin, but my flesh and soul do!" So do you have this kind of split often? It is not a good sign, but I am not going to get into why, or people will be calling me names, maybe even deleting part of my post.

I confess this kind of dualism, saying that I don't sin but my flesh does sounds pretty much like denial. And totally unscriptural. Yes, the OT talks about body and soul, and the NT about spirit, soul and body, but never are they meant to be separated in this life. And the Bible acknowledges over and over that we do need to be wary of our flesh, because sin and other things will affect our spirit.

If our bodies seem to be nothing, then why on earth would Paul tell us to flee from sexual immorality, or any other sin?

"Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body." 1 Cor. 6:18-20

He was writing this to Christians, so obviously we need to watch our flesh, and for more than just sexual immortality.

This also seems to smack of gnosticism, which a member used to say in the past. I didn't understand what he meant then, but I do now.

"Gnosticism is a heresy which is made up of a diverse set of beliefs. It is the teaching based on the idea of gnosis (a Koine Greek word meaning "secret knowledge"), or knowledge of transcendence arrived at by way of internal, intuitive means. While Gnosticism thus relies on personal religious experience as its primary authority, early "Christian" Gnostics did adopt their own versions of authoritative Scriptures, such as those found at Nag Hammadi in Egypt.

Gnostics believed that matter, whether it be the physical universe or the humanly body, is evil. It is obvious that there is a great tension between spirit and matter. This effects many of their beliefs and especially the way they perceive(d) the world and God's interactions with it.

Gnosticism commonly held that "salvation is to escape from the bondage of the material existence and travel back to the home from which souls/spirits have fallen." God initiates salvation because he wants to draw back the stray bits and pieces of himself, and so he sends forth an emanation of himself - "a spiritual redeemer" - who comes down from heaven and gives an attempt to teach some of the "divine sparks of Spirit" what their true identity is and where their real home lies. Once they are awakened by this redeemer they can then begin their journey back home. "Salvation is by knowledge - self-knowledge." excerpts from Roger Olsen found on:

http://www.theopedia.com/gnosticism

Your closing paragraph seems to imply that God has given you special knowledge. I guess God struck the scales from your eyes, but not mine, because?? I am not saved? Because I acknowledge that my flesh is weak, but my mind is still learning to control what I can control, and give the rest to God? Because I know God is transforming me into his image? Because I have been following Jesus for 36 years with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength?

"And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ Mark 12:30

Help me out here, please!

And where does obedience to God fit in your picture?

"Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?" Romans 6:16

As nice as it might be to pretend I don't have a body, that would be a lie! God wants us to deal with our flesh, not pretend it doesn't exist! And just because we have been justified, doesn't mean that we don't have to persevere and walk with Christ daily.

"For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised." Hebrews 10:36

"Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”

7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." Hebrews 12:3-11.

I know that I have definitely been justified by faith, because of the grace of God. But the Bible is telling us that salvation is more than just a starting point. Being a "new creature" is great, but the fact is, we still are in these bodies, and we won't have perfect bodies till the resurrection. Our minds need to be renewed by the Holy Spirit, and that is a very exciting part of our journey! We simply cannot pretend we are not sinning, or hurting. That is the Word Faith lie summed up in a few words. That is why my friend Nydia died. Because she thought that claiming healing actually made her body not have cancer. She thought she was supposed to deny the truth that she was sick, and paid for it with her death 10 months later, because the cancer metastasized. Very sad.

I am glad that God understands my heart, my body and my spirit. He knows that I hurt! He knows that I get angry sometimes! But he has said in his word, that he will forgive my sins if I confess them, and he not only forgives me, he shows me ways that he is changing me. But also, that transformation will not be finished till he returns. How I rejoice that one day I will have a glorified body, and I will not hurt any more. But until that time, I rejoice in God, and all that he has done, and all he is going to do, including with this weak flesh!

Grace777x70 · Oct 20, 2016

It looks like Paul was a possible gnostic too. The flesh is not the real us and we need to spiritually recognize that. We are still responsible for what we do with these bodies but the real us is our new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.

I have done lot's of meditating on Romans 7. I love that chapter. Here is what I came up with.

Here is my take on Romans 7 and the flesh. It's long but there is a lot to it.

The term "flesh" is used 3 different ways in the NT.

1) the carnal ways of thinking and actions left over from the prior manner of living from the old man which is now dead ( but his old habits and ways are still programmed in the flesh and our brains )- this is where renewing our minds comes in

2) it is used when talking about self-effort

3) and sometimes it just means the "fleshly-meat - the body" itself

In this "flesh" there is the "law of sin" ( Rom. 7:23) .....these two are in cahoots together.

Flesh and the law/principle of sin in working together know what "works" with you in the past. The law of sin knows your history and what works with you.

Whatever areas in the past that you have struggled with is what the "sin in your flesh" will be bringing to you in your mind.

The law of sin says you are guilty and worthless but the Holy Spirit in your new man says you are the righteousness of God in Christ, you are loved..etc. You are in Christ now.

The flesh is ways to think and act that "were" the manner of living we are and were used to left over from the old man. ( Eph 4:22 - in reference to your former manner of living )

Romans 7:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now, no longer am I ( the new man ) the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me (in my body which has the flesh with the law of sin in it ).

[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good dwells in me (my body which has the flesh in it ), that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me ( in my new man ), but the doing of the good is not.

Romans 7:20-23 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But if I am doing the very thing I ( new man ) do not want, I ( new man ) am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me ( in the flesh).

[SUP]21 [/SUP] I find then the principle that evil is present in me (new man ), the one who wants to do good.

[SUP]22 [/SUP] For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, ( new man),

[SUP]23 [/SUP] but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

italics = my words

Then Romans chapter 8 comes in and shows us how to walk according to the Spirit and not the flesh to put to deaththe deeds of the body ( flesh in the body ). Rom 8:13

We are not fighting a civil war within ourselves ( the flesh and the law of sin do not belong to our new nature which in Christ. ). Jesus said " A house divided will not stand."

We sin in our flesh when we yield to the flesh - but this is not the real us nor is it denying that we have a body that we are responsible with the deeds that we do in that body. Take up shooting heroin and you will die before your time.

As long as we are on this earth and in this body we will have to contend with the world, the flesh and the devil. NONE of these are us - altho we are in the world we are not of the world....same for the flesh. The good news is that our Lord Jesus Christ has defeated all 3 of them!

As we grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus....we manifest outwardly in our behavior who we already are in our new man in Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

This word "transformed" is the same word used for when Jesus was on the mount and was "transformed" in front of James, Peter and John. Jesus was manifesting His true self when speaking to Moses and Elijah. He already had within Him this glory that was revealed on the mount. He is in us now in our inner man created in righteousness and holiness.

Sorry for the long post but as I said - there is a lot to this. I also have a post on how Vines's Expository Dictionary talks about the "law of sin" being an entity.

There is a difference between the noun "sin" and the verb "sinning" which is the action in Romans 6-7. It is used as a noun 48x times but as a verb only 2x times and it is for a specific reason. But that is a whole other post.

FlSnookman7 · Oct 20, 2016

Angela53510 said:

Oh woe! (I had to separate your post into paragraphs, as I could not read it otherwise! I hope I broke it up at the right places!)

So dualism! "My identity does not sin, but my flesh and soul do!" So do you have this kind of split often? It is not a good sign, but I am not going to get into why, or people will be calling me names, maybe even deleting part of my post.

I confess this kind of dualism, saying that I don't sin but my flesh does sounds pretty much like denial. And totally unscriptural. Yes, the OT talks about body and soul, and the NT about spirit, soul and body, but never are they meant to be separated in this life. And the Bible acknowledges over and over that we do need to be wary of our flesh, because sin and other things will affect our spirit.

If our bodies seem to be nothing, then why on earth would Paul tell us to flee from sexual immorality, or any other sin?

"Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body." 1 Cor. 6:18-20

He was writing this to Christians, so obviously we need to watch our flesh, and for more than just sexual immortality.

This also seems to smack of gnosticism, which a member used to say in the past. I didn't understand what he meant then, but I do now.

"Gnosticism is a heresy which is made up of a diverse set of beliefs. It is the teaching based on the idea of gnosis (a Koine Greek word meaning "secret knowledge"), or knowledge of transcendence arrived at by way of internal, intuitive means. While Gnosticism thus relies on personal religious experience as its primary authority, early "Christian" Gnostics did adopt their own versions of authoritative Scriptures, such as those found at Nag Hammadi in Egypt.

Gnostics believed that matter, whether it be the physical universe or the humanly body, is evil. It is obvious that there is a great tension between spirit and matter. This effects many of their beliefs and especially the way they perceive(d) the world and God's interactions with it.

Gnosticism commonly held that "salvation is to escape from the bondage of the material existence and travel back to the home from which souls/spirits have fallen." God initiates salvation because he wants to draw back the stray bits and pieces of himself, and so he sends forth an emanation of himself - "a spiritual redeemer" - who comes down from heaven and gives an attempt to teach some of the "divine sparks of Spirit" what their true identity is and where their real home lies. Once they are awakened by this redeemer they can then begin their journey back home. "Salvation is by knowledge - self-knowledge." excerpts from Roger Olsen found on:

http://www.theopedia.com/gnosticism

Your closing paragraph seems to imply that God has given you special knowledge. I guess God struck the scales from your eyes, but not mine, because?? I am not saved? Because I acknowledge that my flesh is weak, but my mind is still learning to control what I can control, and give the rest to God? Because I know God is transforming me into his image? Because I have been following Jesus for 36 years with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength?

"And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ Mark 12:30

Help me out here, please!

And where does obedience to God fit in your picture?

"Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?" Romans 6:16

As nice as it might be to pretend I don't have a body, that would be a lie! God wants us to deal with our flesh, not pretend it doesn't exist! And just because we have been justified, doesn't mean that we don't have to persevere and walk with Christ daily.

"For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised." Hebrews 10:36

"Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”

7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." Hebrews 12:3-11.

I know that I have definitely been justified by faith, because of the grace of God. But the Bible is telling us that salvation is more than just a starting point. Being a "new creature" is great, but the fact is, we still are in these bodies, and we won't have perfect bodies till the resurrection. Our minds need to be renewed by the Holy Spirit, and that is a very exciting part of our journey! We simply cannot pretend we are not sinning, or hurting. That is the Word Faith lie summed up in a few words. That is why my friend Nydia died. Because she thought that claiming healing actually made her body not have cancer. She thought she was supposed to deny the truth that she was sick, and paid for it with her death 10 months later, because the cancer metastasized. Very sad.

I am glad that God understands my heart, my body and my spirit. He knows that I hurt! He knows that I get angry sometimes! But he has said in his word, that he will forgive my sins if I confess them, and he not only forgives me, he shows me ways that he is changing me. But also, that transformation will not be finished till he returns. How I rejoice that one day I will have a glorified body, and I will not hurt any more. But until that time, I rejoice in God, and all that he has done, and all he is going to do, including with this weak flesh!

Well, if you do not believe you are a new creation in Christ then nothing I say will sway you. If you do not have faith that you are who God says you are that is between you and God, not you and I. If you wish to take scripture out of context to justify your anger with God or with me that is between you and God. Call me all the names you like, Jesus said it would be that way and it has been that way since Paul started sharing the gospel of Jesus. I am told this world hated Jesus before it ever hated me and thats ok. It seems you are very angry and that at least I can understand. I lived a life of rage and anger for 42 years. On that point at least I will say this, let it go before it destroys you and everyone around you.

A paragraph for you

. I will not engage in any back and forth of malicious slanders. You may call me a hypergracer,a gnostic or whatever else makes you feel better about yourself. I know who and what I am and I thank Jesus for it many times everyday. You may disagree with me, the entire world may disagree with me, it's ok. Jesus agrees with me and that is much much more than enough. I say in all honesty and humbleness that I pray you will one day have the peace He has given to me.

A final though on obedience. I have found I get the most joy and the most blessings when I am obedient to God. This I do not because I fear losing salvation or to gain some kind of Heavenly bonus but rather I do this because I know who and what I am. I am obedient because I love God and wish to please Him. He knows this and I am blessed but guess what? Even if I was never again obedient and I stopped loving Him, He will love me the same now as He did a million years ago and as He will a million years from now. True obedience is having faith in who He says we are so that we can follow the two commandments He left for us.

Stop trying to save yourself through self righteous behavior and religion and instead set aside your ego and pride and have faith in what Jesus has done. He loves you too you know? Trust Him.

Grace777x70 · Oct 20, 2016

I believe that in order to understand the new creation in Christ we need to know that "we are not in the flesh". That is the real us the new creation that is in Christ.

The flesh is NOT the real us. This does NOT mean that we are not responsible for yielding to the flesh and we will reap consequences on this earth for yielding to the flesh. Take up shooting heroin in your arms and we will find "things" out very quickly.

Romans 8 talks about this not being in the flesh - in other words not the real us. When this body dies - the flesh is NOT going with us to be with the Lord - the real us is leaving. The new creation that is in Christ now is the real us that will be with the Lord.

The requirements of the law were fulfilled by Christ"in" us - NOT "by" us because we are "in Christ". Jesus Himself fulfilled all the requirements of the Law.

Romans 8:3-4 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

[SUP]4 [/SUP] so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

We do not walk according to the flesh because we are not in the flesh now - but in the Spirit.

Romans 8:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

If we would only preach the gospel of the grace of Christ and what happened to us when we became a new creation - we would "awake to righteousness" that is in us in our true self that is our inner man created in righteousness and holiness and "sin not" - in it's many forms - including deceit, malice and slander.

Then the life of Christ would be manifested in our lives and we wouldn't have to make up religions like the D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness one.

We can trust the life of Christ that is in us believers now which manifests as the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus to lead us in this life as we are all children of God now and are being led by the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:14

We live now by the life of Christ.

Colossians 3:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

This is not gnosctism but I can see where a religious mindset could distort this and become gnosctism and create their own sect when it formed in the early church world.

Gr8grace · Oct 20, 2016

FlSnookman7 said:

Well, if you do not believe you are a new creation in Christ then nothing I say will sway you. If you do not have faith that you are who God says you are that is between you and God, not you and I. If you wish to take scripture out of context to justify your anger with God or with me that is between you and God. Call me all the names you like, Jesus said it would be that way and it has been that way since Paul started sharing the gospel of Jesus. I am told this world hated Jesus before it ever hated me and thats ok. It seems you are very angry and that at least I can understand. I lived a life of rage and anger for 42 years. On that point at least I will say this, let it go before it destroys you and everyone around you.

A paragraph for you

. I will not engage in any back and forth of malicious slanders. You may call me a hypergracer,a gnostic or whatever else makes you feel better about yourself. I know who and what I am and I thank Jesus for it many times everyday. You may disagree with me, the entire world may disagree with me, it's ok. Jesus agrees with me and that is much much more than enough. I say in all honesty and humbleness that I pray you will one day have the peace He has given to me.

A final though on obedience. I have found I get the most joy and the most blessings when I am obedient to God. This I do not because I fear losing salvation or to gain some kind of Heavenly bonus but rather I do this because I know who and what I am. I am obedient because I love God and wish to please Him. He knows this and I am blessed but guess what? Even if I was never again obedient and I stopped loving Him, He will love me the same now as He did a million years ago and as He will a million years from now. True obedience is having faith in who He says we are so that we can follow the two commandments He left for us.

Stop trying to save yourself through self righteous behavior and religion and instead set aside your ego and pride and have faith in what Jesus has done. He loves you too you know? Trust Him.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to FlSnookman7 again.

You and I are going to get along very well here. You have a lot of doctrine in your soul brother.

And I am still bewildered that this is a post to Angela. Something happened recently we don't know about, Or she is playing devils advocate?

This is just not the kind of stuff she use to post. I still say someone got a hold of her account, or she is taking a course in lordship salvation and fell in head first.

InSpiritInTruth · Oct 20, 2016

Angela53510 said:

Oh woe! (I had to separate your post into paragraphs, as I could not read it otherwise! I hope I broke it up at the right places!)

So dualism! "My identity does not sin, but my flesh and soul do!" So do you have this kind of split often? It is not a good sign, but I am not going to get into why, or people will be calling me names, maybe even deleting part of my post.

I confess this kind of dualism, saying that I don't sin but my flesh does sounds pretty much like denial. And totally unscriptural. Yes, the OT talks about body and soul, and the NT about spirit, soul and body, but never are they meant to be separated in this life. And the Bible acknowledges over and over that we do need to be wary of our flesh, because sin and other things will affect our spirit.

If our bodies seem to be nothing, then why on earth would Paul tell us to flee from sexual immorality, or any other sin?

"Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body." 1 Cor. 6:18-20

He was writing this to Christians, so obviously we need to watch our flesh, and for more than just sexual immortality.

This also seems to smack of gnosticism, which a member used to say in the past. I didn't understand what he meant then, but I do now.

"Gnosticism is a heresy which is made up of a diverse set of beliefs. It is the teaching based on the idea of gnosis (a Koine Greek word meaning "secret knowledge"), or knowledge of transcendence arrived at by way of internal, intuitive means. While Gnosticism thus relies on personal religious experience as its primary authority, early "Christian" Gnostics did adopt their own versions of authoritative Scriptures, such as those found at Nag Hammadi in Egypt.

Gnostics believed that matter, whether it be the physical universe or the humanly body, is evil. It is obvious that there is a great tension between spirit and matter. This effects many of their beliefs and especially the way they perceive(d) the world and God's interactions with it.

Gnosticism commonly held that "salvation is to escape from the bondage of the material existence and travel back to the home from which souls/spirits have fallen." God initiates salvation because he wants to draw back the stray bits and pieces of himself, and so he sends forth an emanation of himself - "a spiritual redeemer" - who comes down from heaven and gives an attempt to teach some of the "divine sparks of Spirit" what their true identity is and where their real home lies. Once they are awakened by this redeemer they can then begin their journey back home. "Salvation is by knowledge - self-knowledge." excerpts from Roger Olsen found on:

http://www.theopedia.com/gnosticism

Your closing paragraph seems to imply that God has given you special knowledge. I guess God struck the scales from your eyes, but not mine, because?? I am not saved? Because I acknowledge that my flesh is weak, but my mind is still learning to control what I can control, and give the rest to God? Because I know God is transforming me into his image? Because I have been following Jesus for 36 years with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength?

"And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ Mark 12:30

Help me out here, please!

And where does obedience to God fit in your picture?

"Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?" Romans 6:16

As nice as it might be to pretend I don't have a body, that would be a lie! God wants us to deal with our flesh, not pretend it doesn't exist! And just because we have been justified, doesn't mean that we don't have to persevere and walk with Christ daily.

"For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised." Hebrews 10:36

"Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”

7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." Hebrews 12:3-11.

I know that I have definitely been justified by faith, because of the grace of God. But the Bible is telling us that salvation is more than just a starting point. Being a "new creature" is great, but the fact is, we still are in these bodies, and we won't have perfect bodies till the resurrection. Our minds need to be renewed by the Holy Spirit, and that is a very exciting part of our journey! We simply cannot pretend we are not sinning, or hurting. That is the Word Faith lie summed up in a few words. That is why my friend Nydia died. Because she thought that claiming healing actually made her body not have cancer. She thought she was supposed to deny the truth that she was sick, and paid for it with her death 10 months later, because the cancer metastasized. Very sad.

I am glad that God understands my heart, my body and my spirit. He knows that I hurt! He knows that I get angry sometimes! But he has said in his word, that he will forgive my sins if I confess them, and he not only forgives me, he shows me ways that he is changing me. But also, that transformation will not be finished till he returns. How I rejoice that one day I will have a glorified body, and I will not hurt any more. But until that time, I rejoice in God, and all that he has done, and all he is going to do, including with this weak flesh!

Bingo! I call it a "disassociated identity" doctrine. They say things like the above poster--->>>

Did you see this video of JP and what I showed in post #437--->>>http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/143043-real-truth-about-joseph-prince-22.html

That man of lawlessness is being revealed "in them" now, he who sits in "the temple of God" proclaiming "himself" that he is God.

Gr8grace · Oct 20, 2016

InSpiritInTruth said:

Where do you go to church? Who is your pastor teacher?

We ALL know you won't give us the specifics on this. Just, "the Holy Spirit is my teacher."

What's the name of your local assembly and where do you meet?

InSpiritInTruth · Oct 20, 2016

Gr8grace said:

I've been taught by the Master, not men.

Matthew 23:10
Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

Gr8grace · Oct 20, 2016

InSpiritInTruth said:

You just sit at home? You don't have a local assembly?

Where do you congregate with other believers?

Let us put your assembly under the microscope. It should stand if you have the truth and want to spread the truth.

Give us the link.

heavenly_bound · Oct 20, 2016

Angela53510 said:

Oh woe! (I had to separate your post into paragraphs, as I could not read it otherwise! I hope I broke it up at the right places!)

So dualism! "My identity does not sin, but my flesh and soul do!" So do you have this kind of split often? It is not a good sign, but I am not going to get into why, or people will be calling me names, maybe even deleting part of my post.

I confess this kind of dualism, saying that I don't sin but my flesh does sounds pretty much like denial. And totally unscriptural. Yes, the OT talks about body and soul, and the NT about spirit, soul and body, but never are they meant to be separated in this life. And the Bible acknowledges over and over that we do need to be wary of our flesh, because sin and other things will affect our spirit.

If our bodies seem to be nothing, then why on earth would Paul tell us to flee from sexual immorality, or any other sin?

"Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body." 1 Cor. 6:18-20

He was writing this to Christians, so obviously we need to watch our flesh, and for more than just sexual immortality.

This also seems to smack of gnosticism, which a member used to say in the past. I didn't understand what he meant then, but I do now.

"Gnosticism is a heresy which is made up of a diverse set of beliefs. It is the teaching based on the idea of gnosis (a Koine Greek word meaning "secret knowledge"), or knowledge of transcendence arrived at by way of internal, intuitive means. While Gnosticism thus relies on personal religious experience as its primary authority, early "Christian" Gnostics did adopt their own versions of authoritative Scriptures, such as those found at Nag Hammadi in Egypt.

Gnostics believed that matter, whether it be the physical universe or the humanly body, is evil. It is obvious that there is a great tension between spirit and matter. This effects many of their beliefs and especially the way they perceive(d) the world and God's interactions with it.

Gnosticism commonly held that "salvation is to escape from the bondage of the material existence and travel back to the home from which souls/spirits have fallen." God initiates salvation because he wants to draw back the stray bits and pieces of himself, and so he sends forth an emanation of himself - "a spiritual redeemer" - who comes down from heaven and gives an attempt to teach some of the "divine sparks of Spirit" what their true identity is and where their real home lies. Once they are awakened by this redeemer they can then begin their journey back home. "Salvation is by knowledge - self-knowledge." excerpts from Roger Olsen found on:

http://www.theopedia.com/gnosticism

Your closing paragraph seems to imply that God has given you special knowledge. I guess God struck the scales from your eyes, but not mine, because?? I am not saved? Because I acknowledge that my flesh is weak, but my mind is still learning to control what I can control, and give the rest to God? Because I know God is transforming me into his image? Because I have been following Jesus for 36 years with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength?

"And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ Mark 12:30

Help me out here, please!

And where does obedience to God fit in your picture?

"Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?" Romans 6:16

As nice as it might be to pretend I don't have a body, that would be a lie! God wants us to deal with our flesh, not pretend it doesn't exist! And just because we have been justified, doesn't mean that we don't have to persevere and walk with Christ daily.

"For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised." Hebrews 10:36

"Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”

7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." Hebrews 12:3-11.

I know that I have definitely been justified by faith, because of the grace of God. But the Bible is telling us that salvation is more than just a starting point. Being a "new creature" is great, but the fact is, we still are in these bodies, and we won't have perfect bodies till the resurrection. Our minds need to be renewed by the Holy Spirit, and that is a very exciting part of our journey! We simply cannot pretend we are not sinning, or hurting. That is the Word Faith lie summed up in a few words. That is why my friend Nydia died. Because she thought that claiming healing actually made her body not have cancer. She thought she was supposed to deny the truth that she was sick, and paid for it with her death 10 months later, because the cancer metastasized. Very sad.

I am glad that God understands my heart, my body and my spirit. He knows that I hurt! He knows that I get angry sometimes! But he has said in his word, that he will forgive my sins if I confess them, and he not only forgives me, he shows me ways that he is changing me. But also, that transformation will not be finished till he returns. How I rejoice that one day I will have a glorified body, and I will not hurt any more. But until that time, I rejoice in God, and all that he has done, and all he is going to do, including with this weak flesh!

You just affirmed that being a new creation is great but we still sin!
what is your understanding of the new creation? If you still see the new creation as those who "sin"; then you have not understood the newness of the new creation.

The new creation are beings that never pre-existed! We were made new creation in the resurrection of Christ from the dead, After destroying the old man(Adam) and his fallen state! The second and last Adam Christ, at His Resurrection, brought in a new creation of God; a new world all together! That's why the word says all things have become new! And the old is off course gone!!!

I really don't care how much of what my mind may cause my body to do or not do! I do not go by what happens in my body(walking by sight)! i go by what God says He has made me in Christ(walking by faith)!

All i care to do at this stage in my christian walk is, to lay hold of what God says i am in Christ! i will never confess any thing else than this! This is the true spiritual battle which is, the good fight of faith!!

Grace777x70 · Oct 20, 2016

I said this a few times before and I will say it again..the natural mind of man cannot see the realities of the new creation in Christ.

It will constantly be trying to refute the new inner man created in righteousness and holiness and it will be complete foolishness to it and "appear" to be gnostic.

This is where some come up with having to "maintain" their salvation for going to be with the Lord.

One of the reasons gnostics were birthed is because of the truth the apostles were talking about in the new birth in Christ - the new man circumcised with the hand of God in separating the flesh from the inner man in Christ...aka the circumcision of Christ or also called circumcision of the heart. Col 2:11

The natural mind of man took over and created their own "reality" - apart from Christ. That is where gnosticism "appears" to be like the truth of the new creation in Christ but it is not.

This isn't even remotely close to true believers in Christ. Everything to do with the new creation is because we are "in Christ"..Paul talked about the true believer being in Christ in some form over 140X times in his letters.

John makes it very clear. The one born of God cannot sin - the new creation in Christ. It is in the present tense and the present tense is always in the present whether you sin one time or a million times. Some translations have tried to water this down by saying "does not habitually sin".

This is just adding their own bias to it because they really don't know what to do with it because they know that every Christian has sinned after coming to Christ and they do still sin in the flesh. ( except of course to those that are sinless in their flesh... )

1 John 3:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 5:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

Jesus keeps us because we are in Him - in Christ and we are joined as one spirit with Him. This is why the new creation cannot sin - not once nor a hundred times and sin is quarantined in the flesh. Again - we are still responsible with what we do in the flesh.

heavenly_bound · Oct 20, 2016

InSpiritInTruth said:

Your quote is based on what the Lord taught under the law(Jews) dear sir!!

Now Check out this prophecy by Jeremiah

Jer3: 15 "...And I(God) will give you pastors according to my heart which will feed you with Knowledge and understanding"

Now see its fulfillment in the NT

Eph 4: 11-13 "And He gave some apostles, and some prophets and some evangelists and some and pastors and teachers for the perfecting of the saints for the work of ministry, ....till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ!"

2 Tim 2:2 "And the things that thou have heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men who shall be able to teach others also"

Can you perceive this truth for once bro?

Stephen63 · Oct 20, 2016

JGIG said:

Why is it assumed that hypergrace folk live in blatent, unrepentant sin?

A. Hypergracers blantantly change the Biblical definition of God's grace..... which is a sin.
B. Hypergracers blantantly change the Biblical definition of faith..... which is a sin.
C. Hypergracers blantantly change the Biblical definition (Greek) of repentance..... which is a sin.
D. Hypergracers blantantly change the Biblical definition (Greek) of confession..... which is a sin.
E. Hypergracers blantantly teaches no conviction of sin after conversion against solid Biblical teachings..... which is a sin.
F. Hypergracers blantantly teaches no confession of sin after conversion against solid Biblical teachings..... which is a sin.
G. Hypergracers blantantly teaches no repentance of sin after conversion against solid Biblical teachings..... which is a sin.
H. Hypergracers blantantly teaches that established church doctrine of every subject above is legalistic & sinful against solid Biblical teachings..... which is a sin.
I. Hypergracers blantantly twist scriptures to say what they want..... which is a sin.
J. Hypergracers blantantly cut people's posts up to say what they want..... which is a sin.
K. Hypergracers blantantly accuse, mock, & blame others who are against their doctrine..... which is a sin.
L. Hypergracers blantantly make "implications" about others who are against their doctrine & then deny ever saying such things..... which is a sin.
M. Hypergracers blantantly use deceit of J-L to convince readers against others who are against their doctrine..... which is a sin.
N. Hypergracers blantantly deny doing such things & falsely cry "foul" when approached about it..... which is a sin.
O. Hypergracers blantantly accuse, mock, & blame others who are against their doctrine..... which is a sin.
P. Hypergracers blantantly claim their beliefs were always around throughout church history, when actually Joseph Prince claims God revealed it to him in 1979.
Q. All of the above.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet the farm on Q.

Angela53510 · Oct 20, 2016

FlSnookman7 said:

Thanks for the paragraphs this time! For my next trick, I will teach you..... Tada.... Reading Comprehension!

First, I do believe I was made a new creature in Christ 36 years ago, as I said in my last post! Second, that doesn't mean I am to follow every false prophet who makes claims that are not in the Bible. You have yet to post a Bible verse in this discussion. So my thought is to start reading the Bible cover to cover, over and over. It takes a year to get through the Bible if you read three chapters of the OT and 1 chapter of the NT daily. That should be our food and daily bread, not devotionals by false teachers who twist the Bible.

That is the great thing about having read the Bible through over and over, in English, then French, and now in Greek and Hebrew for me. Because when someone pulls something out of context, or twists something, warning bells go off, and I go right to the chapter, and the original languages if I need some clarification.

Just because someone calls out bad theology, doesn't make them angry, although it seems like that 42 years of anger may have slipped into this post? Or not! As for me calling you a hypergrace person, or more likely Word Faith? I have no idea where you are at, except for what you post. When someone denies their body, that is Gnosticism. That is why I posted a neutral definition of what that means. Because we are not, separated from our bodies. And yes, our bodies sin, but they do it because our minds push them to. Well not always, sometimes the body lusts after things all on its own.

It's so funny, in the last posted I addressed, you said that anyone that didn't believe like you did, had scales on their eyes. And yet, that is not slander or malice? Oh, only when I am saying it not you! This reminds me so much of the candidates in the American election. It is only bad when they other guy doesn't see, not when you don't see. But I digress!

God has given me a huge amount of peace. And that is why I stand up against these lies of the enemy which have come into the modern church. It has taken me a life time of Bible study to see the truth, and I admit I was first deceived when these hypergrace people first came preaching another gospel. Well, not because I didn't know that what they were preaching was wrong, but because I didn't know what they were really preaching at all. It seemed all so jolly and happy, and well, "full of grace." No wait, that is the Catholic threads!

So you really think God would love you if you just stopped obeying him and never did again for a million years! Woe is me again! Now that is sad, and that is heresy, and that will keep someone out of the Kingdom of God. We do need to persevere in our faith, and strangely it is the Calvinists who started that doctrine. Because if we do not persevere, we probably never were saved in the first place. Oh wait, that is 1 John!

"And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked." 1 John 2:3-6

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." 1 John 2:19

Whoops, there I go again, posting from the Bible to back up what I believe. Silly me, I know that hypergrace believers cherry pick only what they want to believe, and ignore the rest. Or maybe, they just need to read the Bible a lot more to learn what it really says, instead of the lies these false prophets are feeding them. And that is the essence of religious behaviour. Claiming to know God but instead, following a list of beliefs that some internet preacher is preaching. And that is just sad.

Better to stay home, read the Bible and pray than come up with the ultimate in self righteous lies - being that you are already perfect, just not your body. How does that even work, anyway? Very curious. Because anyone who says his "spirit" is perfect, while his body is not, is being pretty self righteous, don't you think? Esp. Someone who seems to think God saved him but yet he doesn't have to obey God ever again? That's some heavy duty self righteousness.

I have posted over and over about the three stages of our Christian walk, justification, sanctification and finally, when we see Jesus face to face and we are truly made perfect which is glorification. The problem many false teachers make, is they try to collapse those three parts of our walk with God. And then at some point, they do wonder why things aren't working out in their Christian life. I spent a few years totally on my own, not going to church, not even reading the Bible. But God called me back, and had me read my Bible a LOT! He began to teach me so many things by his Holy Spirit and those things were confirmed in the Word of God. When I finally went back to church, God led me to churches that agreed totally with what God had showed me!

Well, these were churches who valued both the Word and the Holy Spirit. The denominations don't matter, because what mattered, is that God had taught me the truth, all by myself in my room while I was suffering physically, and emotionally because of the condemnation of hypergrace people who judged me as not having faith, because I wasn't healed. Of course, when they got sick, one changed his tune pretty quickly and the other refused treatment and died of cancer. Wait, I think I already said that about 20 times!

Glory to God! I do hope you will start reading the Bible. Maybe turn off the internet preachers for a few years, and let God speak straight to you. You really don't need a catechism, like you are following right now, because God is living and he will show you both the error of yours ways, and also how to start growing again as a Christian.

God bless. I hope this helps!

PS. I tried to keep this as light hearted as possible, but then I thought of an atheist blog that I stumbled across today, saying "why don't Christians try to rescue the lost?" And I realized I am obligated to post the truth of the Bible, and what Jesus says, for those who have lost their way, because the enemy has deceived them. And isn't the most deceptive lie of all, when we think others are stuck in religion, while Joseph Prince and his ilk are the ones who have set us free? I'll take Jesus and the Word of God any day over these false teachers. By the way, when I see more than one person posting the same nonsense, I pretty much assume they got it from the same lying teachers. So this is directed to everyone who keeps parroting "they are caught in their religious traditions/ they have never been set free/ their traditions have kept them in bondage," etc. Only take this personally if you did get this slanderous saying from some internet preacher, and you are now copying it! In your own words, of course!

(And so help me if someone posts 1 Peter 2:1-2 again, I really might just lose it! LOL)

Gr8grace · Oct 20, 2016

Angela53510 said:

Famous verse to use for "not really saved." Please show us that John was talking about salvation.

He was talking about TRUTH. Not salvation. John taught doctrine, and those believers who want to count on their good works, sorrow for their sins, and doing something for the Lord for their salvation AFTER they are saved...............are not of US.

They will LEAVE a doctrinal church.

Why is it assumed by many here that Grace Folk live in blatant, unrepentant sin?

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