Why is it assumed by many here that Grace Folk live in blatant, unrepentant sin?

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Gr8grace

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1 John 2:19.

And Angela, we can use this verse in real time with you and me.

Your Pastor would say gr8grace left us, because he was not really of us. And my pastor would say the same about you.

But I know you are saved, and I KNOW I am. But I would leave your church and you would leave mine.

John was teaching doctrine, and he had saved people leaving his churches.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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I had a thought, like a vision. Why do people go to preachers who believe in Health, wealth,
Jesus only has good intentions for you, focus on the good things, and ignore everything else.

What is the internal conversation of a wealthy man?
I deserve this wealth
I can keep this wealth it is mine
I have success because of God
I am going to heaven and this gravy train is never going to stop

Now what makes a wealthy man wake up with a heavy sweat?
I am going to die.
My sins will catch up with me.
It is all pointless and nothing will last.
My health is failing and mortality is finally catching up with me

Now which of these two views is Jesus preaching.
Which will keep the rich man happy in his delusion and which shake him up into
action today?

And these preachers get paid serious money to continue to flatter the rich and powerful
just like the prophets like Balaam. And we are the enemy, because we will stop this
gravy train, completely, dead. So we must be eliminated and the wealth church will
conquer the world, and everything will be rosy, and the superhuman christians will reign
with Christ and heaven on earth will be ushered in. Yer sure thing, lol
The WOF doctrine has no connection with the Salvation by Grace doctrine... Why bring it up..
 
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Gr8grace

Guest
The WOF doctrine has no connection with the Salvation by Grace doctrine... Why bring it up..
I am still trying to wrap my head around this. Some WOF teachers have the gospel and Grace FIGURED out!!!!!?????? that is unheard of until very recently.

Eternal security by A WOF teacher? NEVER. But some are beginning to teach it.

Im tossing out the signs and wonders and prosperity they teach. But some are dead on on grace and eternal security. Go figure. I am still a little cynical and skeptical.
 

Adstar

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Jul 24, 2016
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Did you ever stop to consider that when Paul was speaking about all that sinned and fall short is talking about a condition and not an ongoing problem?

You only continue to fall short and sin, because you actively chose to fall short and sin...SIN is not some power you are helpless over....and the devil makes you do....
So you are claiming to be without sin? You never sin? you have ceased all sinning in your life?

If you have sinned since the time you where saved then you are preaching that you have actively chose to fall short and sin.. Because thats the accusation you are laying down against every other person who has sinned since they became Christians...
 

Adstar

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Jul 24, 2016
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I am still trying to wrap my head around this. Some WOF teachers have the gospel and Grace FIGURED out!!!!!?????? that is unheard of until very recently.

Eternal security by A WOF teacher? NEVER. But some are beginning to teach it.

Im tossing out the signs and wonders and prosperity they teach. But some are dead on on grace and eternal security. Go figure. I am still a little cynical and skeptical.
I my experience you can have WOF believers on both sides of the Grace/ Works divide... You also get OSAS believers on both sides of the Grace vs Works salvation divide.. Some OSAS believe also in WOF while others don't and vice versa..
 
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Gr8grace

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I my experience you can have WOF believers on both sides of the Grace/ Works divide... You also get OSAS believers on both sides of the Grace vs Works salvation divide.. Some OSAS believe also in WOF while others don't and vice versa..
Not in the states. WOF was exclusively loss of salvation. Just like loss of faith for all healing,tongues and other miracles......loss of faith resulted in loss of salvation also. Eternal security was unheard of until very recently in their doctrines. In the USA. In fact, I have NEVER heard it until on this very forum.

Maybe I should listen to Joseph Prince a little more. I haven't listened enough if he is saying the lordship salvation version of perseverance of saints or eternal security and preservation by the Lord Jesus Christ.

I did hear a bit about adultery, and "not really saved." I better listen a little closer.
 
Aug 15, 2009
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Why is it assumed that hypergrace folk live in blatent, unrepentant sin?

A. Hypergracers blantantly change the Biblical definition of God's grace..... which is a sin.
B. Hypergracers blantantly change the Biblical definition of faith..... which is a sin.
C. Hypergracers blantantly change the Biblical definition (Greek) of repentance..... which is a sin.
D. Hypergracers blantantly change the Biblical definition (Greek) of confession..... which is a sin.
E. Hypergracers blantantly teaches no conviction of sin after conversion against solid Biblical teachings..... which is a sin.
F. Hypergracers blantantly teaches no confession of sin after conversion against solid Biblical teachings..... which is a sin.
G. Hypergracers blantantly teaches no repentance of sin after conversion against solid Biblical teachings..... which is a sin.
H. Hypergracers blantantly teaches that established church doctrine of every subject above is legalistic & sinful against solid Biblical teachings..... which is a sin.
I. Hypergracers blantantly twist scriptures to say what they want..... which is a sin.
J. Hypergracers blantantly cut people's posts up to say what they want..... which is a sin.
K. Hypergracers blantantly accuse, mock, & blame others who are against their doctrine..... which is a sin.
L. Hypergracers blantantly make "implications" about others who are against their doctrine & then deny ever saying such things..... which is a sin.
M. Hypergracers blantantly use deceit of J-L to convince readers against others who are against their doctrine..... which is a sin.
N. Hypergracers blantantly deny doing such things & falsely cry "foul" when approached about it..... which is a sin.
O. Hypergracers blantantly accuse, mock, & blame others who are against their doctrine..... which is a sin.
P. Hypergracers blantantly claim their beliefs were always around throughout church history, when actually Joseph Prince claims God revealed it to him in 1979.
Q. All of the above.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet the farm on Q.
Correction..... Joseph Prince got his revelation of Hypergrace in 1997. So Hypergrace is 19 yrs old.
 

Adstar

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Jul 24, 2016
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Not in the states. WOF was exclusively loss of salvation. Just like loss of faith for all healing,tongues and other miracles......loss of faith resulted in loss of salvation also. Eternal security was unheard of until very recently in their doctrines. In the USA. In fact, I have NEVER heard it until on this very forum.

Maybe I should listen to Joseph Prince a little more. I haven't listened enough if he is saying the lordship salvation version of perseverance of saints or eternal security and preservation by the Lord Jesus Christ.

I did hear a bit about adultery, and "not really saved." I better listen a little closer.
Eternal security / preservation of the Saints /OSAS was a calvinist doctrine first defined by John Calvin in france in the 1500ds .. His five point Tulip doctrines included the OSAS docrtine..

Tulip teachings of Calvinism

T,U,L,I,P

"T" in "TULIP" stands for "Total Hereditary Depravity."

"Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not - indeed he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ - it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God."


"U" in "TULIP" stands for "Unconditional Election" (Predestination).

"God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response of obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selects. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation."


"L" in "TULIP" stands for "Limited Atonement."

"Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation."


"I" in "TULIP" stands for "Irresistible Grace."

"In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is he dependant upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended."


"P" in "TULIP" stands for "Perseverance of the Saints." ( This is OSAS )

All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of the almighty God and thus preserved to the end."


But even in Calvinism i find some people who are 3 point Calvinists or 4 point Calvinists or the 100% 5 point Calvinist types..
 
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Gr8grace

Guest
Eternal security / preservation of the Saints /OSAS was a calvinist doctrine first defined by John Calvin in france in the 1500ds .. His five point Tulip doctrines included the OSAS docrtine..

Tulip teachings of Calvinism

T,U,L,I,P

"T" in "TULIP" stands for "Total Hereditary Depravity."

"Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not - indeed he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ - it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God."


"U" in "TULIP" stands for "Unconditional Election" (Predestination).

"God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response of obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selects. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation."


"L" in "TULIP" stands for "Limited Atonement."

"Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation."


"I" in "TULIP" stands for "Irresistible Grace."

"In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is he dependant upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended."


"P" in "TULIP" stands for "Perseverance of the Saints." ( This is OSAS )

All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of the almighty God and thus preserved to the end."


But even in Calvinism i find some people who are 3 point Calvinists or 4 point Calvinists or the 100% 5 point Calvinist types..
calvinism is from satan, same as the armin theology.

Look close, Paul teaches PRESERVATION by the Lord Jesus Christ or eternal security. calvinism teaches perseverance of the saints. Which is the EXACT same thing as the armin theory of loss of salvation. Just worded to confuse.
 
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Gr8grace

Guest
Correction..... Joseph Prince got his revelation of Hypergrace in 1997. So Hypergrace is 19 yrs old.
Just listened to Joseph Prince a little closer............You should be on board with Him. He said someone that is committing adultery is not really saved.

Darn, I thought he was on the Lord Jesus Christ's side.

Have you really listened to him? He seems to be on your side, just a little more subtle.
 

Adstar

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Jul 24, 2016
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calvinism is from satan, same as the armin theology.

Look close, Paul teaches PRESERVATION by the Lord Jesus Christ or eternal security. calvinism teaches perseverance of the saints. Which is the EXACT same thing as the armin theory of loss of salvation. Just worded to confuse.
I have had many debates with 5 point calvinists and perseverance of the Saints is OSAS... They are the same..
 
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RobbyEarl

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Some take grace to far to justify sin
 
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RobbyEarl

Guest
Those that endure to the end and it can only be done by faith in the work of the Cross. Amen
 

Dan58

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Nov 13, 2013
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are you suggesting that God will act in grace and will fail.? He saves from beginning to end by grace. And He cannot and will not fail. John 6.39; I corinthians 1.8-9; phil 2.6; etc
No, I'm just saying that anyone who says they're saved by grace and then cuts your throat is probably a hypocrite who's not under grace. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate" (Titus 1:16). "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me." (Matthew 15:8). "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21-23).
 

fredoheaven

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Nov 17, 2015
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I have had many debates with 5 point calvinists and perseverance of the Saints is OSAS... They are the same..
Umm, not at all! Not all who believe in Eternal security is Calvinist...

God bless
 

wattie

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Feb 24, 2009
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New Zealand
And 'perseverance of the saints' .... if we are talking about once saved always saved.. should be 'preservation of the saved '

Calvinism mostly teaches that a saved person WILL be faithful to the end and if they are not that they 'weren't saved to begin with'...

This is not teaching eternal security. Not in its purest sense.
 

Grandpa

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Jun 24, 2011
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calvinism is from satan, same as the armin theology.

Look close, Paul teaches PRESERVATION by the Lord Jesus Christ or eternal security. calvinism teaches perseverance of the saints. Which is the EXACT same thing as the armin theory of loss of salvation. Just worded to confuse.
I don't have any problem with Calvins ideas. They are all backed by scripture and experience.

Its way to easy to take any ideas and twist them. Look what people do with Christianity. You wouldn't say that is from satan. Even though some make it into that.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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And I am still bewildered that this is a post to Angela. Something happened recently we don't know about, Or she is playing devils advocate?

This is just not the kind of stuff she use to post. I still say someone got a hold of her account, or she is taking a course in lordship salvation and fell in head first.
Gr8grace - The soul is made of of emotional perspectives and these largely determine what
we believe and why. Like at the end of reading this sentence you will have a feeling that
says you like or dislike what I am saying.

Faith is built equally on experiences in our lives and the words and ideas around them.
A core idea of scripture is Gods intent to man.

"Blessed are the pure in heart they will see God."

Do you believe that? I mean really believe this, not an intellectual assent but purity gives insight?
I do. My life depends upon this very reality. Without the right sight all is lost. Everything, every
teacher, idea, relationship, truth is tainted by ones own sight and understanding, emotionally,
spiritually, intellectually.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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Gr8grace - The soul is made of of emotional perspectives and these largely determine what
we believe and why. Like at the end of reading this sentence you will have a feeling that
says you like or dislike what I am saying.

Faith is built equally on experiences in our lives and the words and ideas around them.
A core idea of scripture is Gods intent to man.

"Blessed are the pure in heart they will see God."

Do you believe that? I mean really believe this, not an intellectual assent but purity gives insight?
I do. My life depends upon this very reality. Without the right sight all is lost. Everything, every
teacher, idea, relationship, truth is tainted by ones own sight and understanding, emotionally,
spiritually, intellectually.
see this is the danger of hyper-focusing on a verse or a chapter.

we are saved by believing In Jesus. this is said over and over and over in the N.T. peter, for the last time, get your eyes of your self. yes, heart purity is something we should all strive for, but as far as salvation, that is Jesus, not you being " pure " enough.