Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

Ahwatukee · Oct 22, 2016

"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

In answering the disciples question of "what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age" Jesus had already mentioned the destruction of the temple and so his a answers were focused on the signs leading up to the end of the age, with the mention of the abomination in Matt.24:15 marking the middle of the seven years according to Dan.9:27. Regarding those signs, Jesus said that they would begin during that last generation and that once they began, that generation would not be completed until all of the signs had been fulfilled. Therefore, those signs are contained within that last generation and not over two thousand years. The only thing that involves the last two thousand years is the information contained within the letters to the seven churches, which is meant for all believers and churches to examine themselves against. Everything from Rev.4 onward is still future.

This error stems from not understanding end-time events nor the severity of God's coming wrath, that the wrath contained in the book of Revelation is not meant to pass by unnoticed behind the scenes of history, but is meant to get the worlds attention! The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place in the same manner as a woman having birth pains, which will start off mild and farther apart, while becoming closer together and more intense, leading up to the return of Christ. By stringing God's wrath out to cover two thousand years, you take away the "Hey! I want your attention" factor.

Think of it in the same way that a parent, after speaking his child verbally several times, but with no results. Now, it is time to take more drastic action by hitting them where it hurts!, Where they have no choice but to listen, and that because they can no longer ignore it. That is what God will be doing with the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. By spreading God's wrath out over two thousand years, you distort the scriptures and take away their purpose.

Everything from Revelation 4 onwards represents the "what must take place later" i.e. after "what is now" I.e. after the church period.

GaryA · Oct 22, 2016

Quasar92 said:

You do realize that the phrase 'the abomination that maketh desolate' in both of the following verses is referring to the [ exact ] same thing - right?

Daniel 11:

[SUP]31[/SUP] And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Daniel 12:

[SUP]11[/SUP] And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

What do you suppose "there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days" is referring to?

"there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days" --- until what [ exactly ] ?

What happened 1290 days after Antiochus Epiphanes desecrated the Temple?

GaryA · Oct 22, 2016

Matthew 24:

[SUP]34[/SUP] Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

In the Greek, it is saying: until these things begin to "come about" / "happen" / "occur" / etc.

Jesus is saying that "these things" will begin to occur "before this generation dies out"...

GaryA · Oct 22, 2016

GaryA said:

And they did...

PlainWord · Oct 22, 2016

Quasar92 said:

No, the prophesy of Antiocus Epiphanes is found in Dan 8. The one in Dan 11 pertains the fortress of the sanctuary which is the Wailing Wall or Western Wall and it is yet future.

GaryA · Oct 22, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

You are not properly understanding what is being said. It is not the 'Seals', 'Trumpets', and 'Vials' ( specifically ) that occur like labor pains. The idea that is illustrated in scripture is talking about the same thing ( whatever specific thing that might be - i.e. - earthquakes, for example ) happening with greater frequency and intensity. It is not talking about [ one-time and separate ] 'events' getting closer to each other in time.

Ahwatukee said:

Two things:

~ The Wrath of God is yet future.

~ The 'Seals', 'Trumpets', and 'Vials' are not [ all ] the Wrath of God. Only the 'Vials' are the Wrath of God.

PlainWord · Oct 22, 2016

Hey Quasar,

I met one of your "tribulation saints" today. Meet Sarah Liu from China. She came to the Lord, as many do in China, in an underground house church. The church had one Bible that they had to copy by hand and share. Sarah was on fire for the Lord and led many to Jesus.

Word of her came to the Chinese authorities who arrested her and threw her into prison, first for 3 months, then 3 years. Each time she was released, she was told that if she continued she would face harsher and harsher penalties. She didn't stop. One night police stormed into her bedroom and led her away blind folded in her PJs. This time they led her to a horrible prison where they smashed her feet with hammers, put her legs in irons and made her walk in circles chained to a pole depraved of sleep. She was told to sign a confession ratting out 13 others from her church. She refused so they stepped on her chain causing her to fall. She got back up and they took a hot poker from a fire and burned both her hands and then put it in her mouth causing her entire mouth to blister up. The pain was excruciating.

Sarah shared that she did not think of herself as brave or strong but she felt the presence of Jesus. She looked down and saw that her bleeding feet had left a trail of blood around the pole where she was walking and she immediately remembered the Cross. Sarah cried out, "I only wanted Jesus, I didn't want the Cross too." But Sarah knew that getting the Cross was part of being a Christian, so she picked hers up and continued walking. When she said that, I thought of you. Meet Sarah, a GIANT of a woman at 4' 8" tall.

Sarah served a total of six years making of all things, Christmas lights for the Chinese government. So when you hang your lights this year, think of all the Tribulation Saints in China that made them for you. FYI, Sarah never told on her friends.

PlainWord · Oct 23, 2016

Gary is 100% correct in another forum titled, "[THE] Great Tribulation" that it started for Christians really at the Cross but with Stephen or John the Baptist as the first martyr and continues to this day. The idea that Christians would suffer tribulation and be hated by all nations is a well taught Biblical principle. All Christians in the world are part of the Body of Christ. In the Middle East and in China and North Korea and plenty of other places, part of our body is on the front lines enduring death and hardship for the Kingdom.

Pre-tribbers make one really bad false assumption (actually they make many) that [the] Great Tribulation is a world-wide event and is the wrath of God. They confuse the "tribulation" that is promised to those who follow Jesus with [the] Great Tribulation that is coming to Israel. To make matters worse, they think the GT is the Wrath of God when in fact they are separate events. The Wrath of God follows the GT of Israel.

There are three separate events on different time lines taught.

1. [the] tribulation of the Church (30 AD until Christ returns)
2. [the] Great Tribulation of Israel (A of D until < 45 days until Wrath)
3. The Wrath of God (when Christ is revealed from heaven)

The one we are to escape is the Wrath. We escape it because we are gathered. The "tribulation" of the church is on-going and those living in tribulation, on the front lines of the spiritual war, are blessed and they count it as blessing. Those of us in the rear areas are blessed in the sense that we are not suffering, but not blessed in that we have yet to be called to suffer for Christ.

If one of our brothers or sisters in another part of the world gets a hammer slammed on their foot they cry out with their mouth. Why? The mouth wasn't hurt. Because it is one body. We too are one body. So, we cry in pain (or should) for our brothers and sisters who are enduring beheadings, rapes, torture, and prison of family, friends or themselves. They are being singled out for persecution and death with an "N" painted in Arabic on their door in Syria and Iraq by ISIS. For them, there is no greater tribulation possible or even imaginable than that which they already suffer. Try telling them that there is a pre-trib rapture and they would laugh at you!!!

Quasar92 · Oct 23, 2016

PlainWord said:

Sarah Liu is one of your friens, PlainWord, I never knew her. Review the following for the reasons why:

What Preterists believe and why the Scriptures refute it:
The preterist understanding greatly affects events, personalities, and chronologies. If preterism is true, (it is not) then what a different view of the past and future there would be than what we have been led to believe up to this point.. If it is true, then what a vastly different view of Christianity it would produce. The following list includes many of the strange beliefs that preterism yields:

• The Great Tribulation "took place in the Fall of Israel. It will not be repeated and thus is not a future event."

• The Great Apostasy "happened in the first century. We therefore have no Biblical warrant to expect increasing apostasy as history progresses; instead, we should expect the increasing Christianization of the world."

• The Last Days "is a Biblical expression for the period between Christ’s Advent and the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70: the "last days" of Israel."

• The Antichrist "is a term used by John to describe the widespread apostasy of the Christian Church prior to the Fall of Jerusalem. In general, any apostate teacher or system can be called ‘antichrist’; but the word does not refer to some ‘future Fuhrer.’"

• The Rapture is "the ‘catching up’ of the living saints ‘to meet the Lord in the air.’ The Bible does not teach any separation between the Second Coming and the Rapture; they are simply different aspects of the Last Day."

• The Second Coming "coinciding with the Rapture and the Resurrection, will take place at the end of the Millennium, when history is sealed at the Judgment."

• The Beast "of Revelation was a symbol of both Nero in particular and the Roman Empire in general."

• The False Prophet "of Revelation was none other than the leadership of apostate Israel, who rejected Christ and worshiped the Beast."

• The Great Harlot of Revelation was "Jerusalem which had always been . . . falling into apostasy and persecuting the prophets . . . which had ceased to be the City of God."

• The Millennium "is the Kingdom of Jesus Christ, which He established at His First Advent. . . . the period between the First and Second Advents of Christ; the Millennium is going on now, with Christians reigning as kings on earth." "Other postmillennialists interpret the millennium as a future stage of history. Though the kingdom is already inaugurated, there will someday be a greater outpouring of the Spirit than the church has yet experienced."

• The First Resurrection of Revelation 20:4 is a "Spiritual resurrection: our justification and regeneration in Christ."

• The Thousand Years of Revelation 20:2-7 is a "large, rounded-off number. . . . the number ten contains the idea of a fullness of quantity; in other words, it stands for manyness. A thousand multiplies and intensifies this (10 X 10 X 10), in order to express great vastness. . . . represent a vast, undefined period of time . . . It may require a million years."
• The New Creation "has already begun: The Bible describes our salvation in Christ, both now and in eternity, as ‘a new heaven and a new earth.’"

• Israel In contrast to the eventual faithfulness and empowerment by the Holy Spirit of the Church, "ethnic Israel was excommunicated for its apostasy and will never again be God’s Kingdom." Thus, "the Bible does not tell of any future plan for Israel as a special nation." The Church is now that new nation (Matt. 21:43) which is why Christ destroyed the Jewish state. "In destroying Israel, Christ transferred the blessings of the kingdom from Israel to a new people, the church."

• The New Jerusalem "the City of God, is the Church, now and forever."

• The Final Apostasy refers to Satan’s last gasp in history (Rev. 20:7-10). "The Dragon will be released for a short time, to deceive the nations in his last-ditch attempt to overthrow the Kingdom." This will be "in the far future, at the close of the Messianic age," shortly before the Second Coming.

• Armageddon "was for St. John a symbol of defeat and desolation, a ‘Waterloo’ signifying the defeat of those who set themselves against God, who obey false prophets instead of the true." "There never was or will be a literal ‘Battle of Armageddon,’ for there is no such place."
Preterists contend that most of the biblical passages that I would see as future have already been fulfilled in the first century. R. C. Sproul has adopted this view in his recent book The Last Days According To Jesus. Why are an increasing number of evangelicals coming to what I strongly believe is an erroneous conclusion?

Quasar92

wolfwint · Oct 23, 2016

Hi Quasar92, i agree with your post and have the same sight!! But, where you found that the 144000 from the tribes are preaching the gospel? I can only find the angel in Rev. 16,6-7!
have a blessed day

wolfwint · Oct 23, 2016

Quasar92 said:

Sarah Liu is one of your friens, PlainWord, I never knew her. Review the following for the reasons why:

What Preterists believe and why the Scriptures refute it:
The preterist understanding greatly affects events, personalities, and chronologies. If preterism is true, (it is not) then what a different view of the past and future there would be than what we have been led to believe up to this point.. If it is true, then what a vastly different view of Christianity it would produce. The following list includes many of the strange beliefs that preterism yields:

• The Great Tribulation "took place in the Fall of Israel. It will not be repeated and thus is not a future event."

• The Great Apostasy "happened in the first century. We therefore have no Biblical warrant to expect increasing apostasy as history progresses; instead, we should expect the increasing Christianization of the world."

• The Last Days "is a Biblical expression for the period between Christ’s Advent and the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70: the "last days" of Israel."

• The Antichrist "is a term used by John to describe the widespread apostasy of the Christian Church prior to the Fall of Jerusalem. In general, any apostate teacher or system can be called ‘antichrist’; but the word does not refer to some ‘future Fuhrer.’"

• The Rapture is "the ‘catching up’ of the living saints ‘to meet the Lord in the air.’ The Bible does not teach any separation between the Second Coming and the Rapture; they are simply different aspects of the Last Day."

• The Second Coming "coinciding with the Rapture and the Resurrection, will take place at the end of the Millennium, when history is sealed at the Judgment."

• The Beast "of Revelation was a symbol of both Nero in particular and the Roman Empire in general."

• The False Prophet "of Revelation was none other than the leadership of apostate Israel, who rejected Christ and worshiped the Beast."

• The Great Harlot of Revelation was "Jerusalem which had always been . . . falling into apostasy and persecuting the prophets . . . which had ceased to be the City of God."

• The Millennium "is the Kingdom of Jesus Christ, which He established at His First Advent. . . . the period between the First and Second Advents of Christ; the Millennium is going on now, with Christians reigning as kings on earth." "Other postmillennialists interpret the millennium as a future stage of history. Though the kingdom is already inaugurated, there will someday be a greater outpouring of the Spirit than the church has yet experienced."

• The First Resurrection of Revelation 20:4 is a "Spiritual resurrection: our justification and regeneration in Christ."

• The Thousand Years of Revelation 20:2-7 is a "large, rounded-off number. . . . the number ten contains the idea of a fullness of quantity; in other words, it stands for manyness. A thousand multiplies and intensifies this (10 X 10 X 10), in order to express great vastness. . . . represent a vast, undefined period of time . . . It may require a million years."
• The New Creation "has already begun: The Bible describes our salvation in Christ, both now and in eternity, as ‘a new heaven and a new earth.’"

• Israel In contrast to the eventual faithfulness and empowerment by the Holy Spirit of the Church, "ethnic Israel was excommunicated for its apostasy and will never again be God’s Kingdom." Thus, "the Bible does not tell of any future plan for Israel as a special nation." The Church is now that new nation (Matt. 21:43) which is why Christ destroyed the Jewish state. "In destroying Israel, Christ transferred the blessings of the kingdom from Israel to a new people, the church."

• The New Jerusalem "the City of God, is the Church, now and forever."

• The Final Apostasy refers to Satan’s last gasp in history (Rev. 20:7-10). "The Dragon will be released for a short time, to deceive the nations in his last-ditch attempt to overthrow the Kingdom." This will be "in the far future, at the close of the Messianic age," shortly before the Second Coming.

• Armageddon "was for St. John a symbol of defeat and desolation, a ‘Waterloo’ signifying the defeat of those who set themselves against God, who obey false prophets instead of the true." "There never was or will be a literal ‘Battle of Armageddon,’ for there is no such place."
Preterists contend that most of the biblical passages that I would see as future have already been fulfilled in the first century. R. C. Sproul has adopted this view in his recent book The Last Days According To Jesus. Why are an increasing number of evangelicals coming to what I strongly believe is an erroneous conclusion?

Quasar92

Hi Quasar92, you confusing me! You wrote me as defender of pretrib. And now you wrote the opposit! Äh, what do you believe?

Ahwatukee · Oct 23, 2016

Quasar92 said:

Sarah Liu is one of your friens, PlainWord, I never knew her. Review the following for the reasons why:

What Preterists believe and why the Scriptures refute it:
The preterist understanding greatly affects events, personalities, and chronologies. If preterism is true, (it is not) then what a different view of the past and future there would be than what we have been led to believe up to this point.. If it is true, then what a vastly different view of Christianity it would produce. The following list includes many of the strange beliefs that preterism yields:

• The Great Tribulation "took place in the Fall of Israel. It will not be repeated and thus is not a future event."

• The Great Apostasy "happened in the first century. We therefore have no Biblical warrant to expect increasing apostasy as history progresses; instead, we should expect the increasing Christianization of the world."

• The Last Days "is a Biblical expression for the period between Christ’s Advent and the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70: the "last days" of Israel."

• The Antichrist "is a term used by John to describe the widespread apostasy of the Christian Church prior to the Fall of Jerusalem. In general, any apostate teacher or system can be called ‘antichrist’; but the word does not refer to some ‘future Fuhrer.’"

• The Rapture is "the ‘catching up’ of the living saints ‘to meet the Lord in the air.’ The Bible does not teach any separation between the Second Coming and the Rapture; they are simply different aspects of the Last Day."

• The Second Coming "coinciding with the Rapture and the Resurrection, will take place at the end of the Millennium, when history is sealed at the Judgment."

• The Beast "of Revelation was a symbol of both Nero in particular and the Roman Empire in general."

• The False Prophet "of Revelation was none other than the leadership of apostate Israel, who rejected Christ and worshiped the Beast."

• The Great Harlot of Revelation was "Jerusalem which had always been . . . falling into apostasy and persecuting the prophets . . . which had ceased to be the City of God."

• The Millennium "is the Kingdom of Jesus Christ, which He established at His First Advent. . . . the period between the First and Second Advents of Christ; the Millennium is going on now, with Christians reigning as kings on earth." "Other postmillennialists interpret the millennium as a future stage of history. Though the kingdom is already inaugurated, there will someday be a greater outpouring of the Spirit than the church has yet experienced."

• The First Resurrection of Revelation 20:4 is a "Spiritual resurrection: our justification and regeneration in Christ."

• The Thousand Years of Revelation 20:2-7 is a "large, rounded-off number. . . . the number ten contains the idea of a fullness of quantity; in other words, it stands for manyness. A thousand multiplies and intensifies this (10 X 10 X 10), in order to express great vastness. . . . represent a vast, undefined period of time . . . It may require a million years."
• The New Creation "has already begun: The Bible describes our salvation in Christ, both now and in eternity, as ‘a new heaven and a new earth.’"

• Israel In contrast to the eventual faithfulness and empowerment by the Holy Spirit of the Church, "ethnic Israel was excommunicated for its apostasy and will never again be God’s Kingdom." Thus, "the Bible does not tell of any future plan for Israel as a special nation." The Church is now that new nation (Matt. 21:43) which is why Christ destroyed the Jewish state. "In destroying Israel, Christ transferred the blessings of the kingdom from Israel to a new people, the church."

• The New Jerusalem "the City of God, is the Church, now and forever."

• The Final Apostasy refers to Satan’s last gasp in history (Rev. 20:7-10). "The Dragon will be released for a short time, to deceive the nations in his last-ditch attempt to overthrow the Kingdom." This will be "in the far future, at the close of the Messianic age," shortly before the Second Coming.

• Armageddon "was for St. John a symbol of defeat and desolation, a ‘Waterloo’ signifying the defeat of those who set themselves against God, who obey false prophets instead of the true." "There never was or will be a literal ‘Battle of Armageddon,’ for there is no such place."
Preterists contend that most of the biblical passages that I would see as future have already been fulfilled in the first century. R. C. Sproul has adopted this view in his recent book The Last Days According To Jesus. Why are an increasing number of evangelicals coming to what I strongly believe is an erroneous conclusion?

Quasar92

Man! I'm cringing just reading all of those false interpretations!

Quasar92 · Oct 23, 2016

wolfwint said:

The book of Revelation has always presented the interpreter with challenges. The book is steeped in vivid imagery and symbolism which people have interpreted differently depending on their preconceptions of the book as a whole. There are four main interpretive approaches to the book of Revelation: 1) preterist (which sees all or most of the events in Revelation as having already occurred by the end of the 1st century); 2) historicist (which sees Revelation as a survey of church history from apostolic times to the present); 3) idealist (which sees Revelation as a depiction of the struggle between good and evil); 4) futurist (which sees Revelation as prophecy of events to come). Of the four, only the futurist approach interprets Revelation in the same grammatical-historical method as the rest of Scripture. It is also a better fit with Revelation’s own claim to be prophecy (Revelation 1:3; 22:7, 10, 18, 19).

So the answer to the question “who are the 144,000?” will depend on which interpretive approach you take to the book of Revelation. With the exception of the futurist approach, all of the other approaches interpret the 144,000 symbolically, as representative of the church and the number 144,000 being symbolic of the totality—i.e., the complete number—of the church. Yet when taken at face value: “Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel” (Revelation 7:4), nothing in the passage leads to interpreting the 144,000 as anything but a literal number of Jews—12,000 taken from every tribe of the “sons of Israel.” The New Testament offers no clear cut text replacing Israel with the church.

These Jews are “sealed,” which means they have the special protection of God from all of the divine judgments and from the Antichrist to perform their mission during the tribulation period (see Revelation 6:17, in which people will wonder who can stand from the wrath to come). The tribulation period is a future seven-year period of time in which God will enact divine judgment against those who reject Him and will complete His plan of salvation for the nation of Israel. All of this is according to God’s revelation to the prophet Daniel (Daniel 9:24–27). The 144,000 Jews are a sort of “first fruits” (Revelation 14:4) of a redeemed Israel which has been previously prophesied (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25–27), and their mission seems to be to evangelize the post-rapture world and proclaim the gospel during the tribulation period. As a result of their ministry, millions—“a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language” (Revelation 7:9)—will come to faith in Christ.

Much of the confusion regarding the 144,000 is a result of the false doctrine of the Jehovah's Witnesses. The Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that 144,000 is a limit to the number of people who will reign with Christ in heaven and spend eternity with God. The 144,000 have what the Jehovah’s Witnesses call the heavenly hope. Those who are not among the 144,000 will enjoy what they call the earthly hope—a paradise on earth ruled by Christ and the 144,000. Clearly, we can see that Jehovah’s Witness teaching sets up a caste society in the afterlife with a ruling class (the 144,000) and those who are ruled. The Bible teaches no such “dual class” doctrine. It is true that according to Revelation 20:4 there will be people ruling in the millennium with Christ. These people will be comprised of the church (believers in Jesus Christ), Old Testament saints (believers who died before Christ’s first advent), and tribulation saints (those who accept Christ during the tribulation). Yet the Bible places no numerical limit on this group of people. Furthermore, the millennium is different from the eternal state, which will take place at the completion of the millennial period. At that time, God will dwell with us in the New Jerusalem. He will be our God and we will be His people (Revelation 21:3). The inheritance promised to us in Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14) will become ours, and we will all be co-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17).

Quasar92

PlainWord · Oct 23, 2016

You should get to know her as her story refutes the notion that the Church is going anywhere to avoid tribulation. The Church avoids God's Wrath. Two totally different concepts.

I am not a preterist.

The GT is the all out attack against Israel and is indeed future. The GT has Absolutely nothing to do with the Church (except the attackers are persecuting the Church in the middle east right now).

This is also future but I am convinced deals also with Israel. They lose their faith before the Man of Sin is revealed.

I disagree with this view also although technically the disciples saw themselves in the last days. The END, however, is future and comes once the Gospel has been preached in all the nations. We will know we are getting close when the Western Wall is defiled or destroyed ending prayers there.

I see a future character called, "the Man of Sin" or the "King of the North." "AntiChrist" is a misnomer.

I agree with this. AKA "Day of the Lord." Whether or not it is a literal one earth day is an open question to me because of 2 Pet 3.

Need to define Millennium

I disagree. The "BEAST of the SEA" of Rev 13 is Islamic, not Roman. The Harlot it carries is ISLAM.

I disagree. The False Prophet was Muhammad. But his successor is still future. The Sunnis and Shiites have been fighting for centuries over this.

Absolutely FALSE. The harlot is ISLAM. There are no kings who would mourn over the destruction of Judaism. Also, the Lord will reign in Jerusalem so it can't get nuked.

I mostly agree with this. Christ will indeed literally reign on earth again however and we will reign with Him here on earth. However, Christ is reigning in Heaven now with Saints up there. The Kingdom is everlasting and has been spread throughout the globe. Judgment is yet future.

Yes.

I don't agree with a million years. The key is when did the beheadings start? John the Baptist was beheaded. Islam took it to a new level starting in the 7th century. Beheadings are on the rise again now. The 1,000 years is not a literal number, it is a long period of time. How long? We'll find out. But I believe it has been long enough for Christ to return.

We are new creations but the "restoration of all things" is yet future, IMO.

I never heard of this hogwash before. Israel will be part of the Bride along with the Church ALL OF IT.

The new Jerusalem is what we think of as HEAVEN!! It includes the Church and Saved of Israel. Christ is the chief cornerstone and we are all figurative white stones with new names. Heaven will come down to earth one day and we will all be with God and Christ as ONE. There will be no more sun as God and the Lamb are it's LIGHT. There will be no temple.

Don't like the term. But I think we are in this period now. Satan is making his final push. The second coming I do believe is near. We are closing in on 7,000 years of earth history since Adam. Many think we are at 6,000 years but somewhere along the line 1,000 years between Egypt and Solomon were taken out of the Bible. Satan keeps messing with time and seasons. This is a longer subject but there is proof that the Israel came out of Egypt about 2,450 years ago and not 1,450 that most think. 1 Kings 6:1 should read, "one thousand, four hundred eightieth..." Proof is in the archeological record. Egypt was decimated with mass graves of babies, Jericho fell, Ai fell all around 2,450 to 2,500 years ago. They also just found Egypt's army in the Red Sea stuck in the mud, just read an article about it.

I disagree. Armageddon is future and happens in the plains of Megiddo. Ironically the Mount of Transfiguration is between Nazareth and the plains of Megiddo. It was here where Jesus was nearly pushed to His death but escaped. I stood on this mountain just last year. It would have a pretty obvious figurative meaning but I do see it as a literal future event.

I differ with these guys. My study has been mostly independent using experience guided by wisdom and prayer. So many views out there and so much confusion. As events unfold, things come into focus. I'm certain I have some minor points wrong but truly believe we are in the final few years.

Quasar92 · Oct 23, 2016

wolfwint said:

Yes, you are a bit confused. I still teach the Pre-mil/pre-trib Scriptural teachings. What I posted is what the Preterists believe. Did you read the first paragraph of that listings of their beieif system?

>>>What Preterists believe and why the Scriptures refute it:
The preterist understanding greatly affects events, personalities, and chronologies. If preterism is true, (it is not) then what a different view of the past and future there would be than what we have been led to believe up to this point.. If it is true, then what a vastly different view of Christianity it would produce. The following list includes many of the strange beliefs that preterism yields:<<<

Quasar92

garee · Oct 23, 2016

Leaves represent the temporal healing of the all the nations showing us God does not heal or is he served by human hands as if He needed anything from the clay He is forming Christ in (us) which He considers as new creatures no longer of the flesh . . .

A distinction between leaves, as the common grace given to the whole human race like rain given to every creature and fruit as a distinction must be made I believe.

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Leaves does not symbolize the fruit of being reborn. This generation representing the last days is marked by the renting of the veil, as the generation of Christ .. it signified the end of temple worship. The walls once the veil was rent that remained have no significance what so ever, just as the remnant of that wall today which is used as an idol in a hope their kind of Christ will come . .

Christ said it is an evil generation, the generation of Adam, natural man that seeks after a sign. No new sign as wonder (faith issue) was given after the sign of Jonas.

The renting of the veil signified the promised “time of reformation” has come . It is how we know with absolute certainty we are our already in the last days, the last time, the day of Christ. Twice Christ mentions it’s the last time as the beginning of last days in 1 John 2.
The Holy Spirit will come as a thief in the night on the last day marking the second and final resurrections as well as judgment day for the whole world..

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it "is" the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there “many antichrists” ; whereby we” know” that it "is" the last time.

PlainWord · Oct 23, 2016

I am somewhere in the 3rd or 4th camp.

PlainWord · Oct 23, 2016

I attended a Voice of the Martyrs (VOM) conference in Las Vegas yesterday. At the end of the event there wasn't a dry eye in the place. We heard from a number of persecuted Christians which I will share in other forums. One of our brothers from Syria told an incredible story. His testimony blew everyone away. Anyway, the guy from Syria made a comment, "We keep waiting for the Second Coming of Jesus to end our tribulation. We keep waiting for the signs He gave." He cited Mat 24:14 and told us they are doing their part.

The point is, those suffering unbelievable persecution for Jesus aren't waiting for any pre-trib rapture. For them, the tribulation is NOW. They are waiting for the Second Coming. How ironic that we have those here in America waiting to be raptured to avoid a tribulation that isn't here. If it does come (and it may) we want to run from it while our Brothers and Sisters in the middle east are dropping like flies. They take their tribulation as a badge of honor and so many of us look upon tribulation as a thing to escape.

We could all learn a lot from the Persecuted Church.

Radius · Oct 23, 2016

so i take it that not many people in here watch Jack Van Impe?

PlainWord · Oct 23, 2016

Radius said:

Only if I ate something bad and was having a hard time heaving it back up. The same could be said for the equally uninspired John Hagee. When it comes to end times, you won't find a more clueless pair now that Tim LaHaye is no longer with us.

Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

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