The term “Law” is very vast. Just so I have a good understanding the people that think the “Law” stopped existing what part, or all of it: “moral law” is now extent too, or is it all the first 5 books of the Bible has stopped existing and we should rip it out, or is it the “sacrificial law”? or do you not know?
When did the Law expire?
- Thread starter ZEEK
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A simple answer!
Matt 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."
Revelation 21:1-2, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no more sea. And I, Yahchanan, saw the holy city, YHWH Shammah, coming down from YHWH out of heaven, prepared as brides adorned for their husbands. And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of YHWH is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and YHWH Himself will be with them, and be their Father.
Isayah 42:21, "YHWH is well-pleased, for His righteousness' sake, to magnify the Law, and make it honorable"
John (Yahchanan) 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
John (Yahchanan) 5:24, "Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."
Mattithyah 5:18-19, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected. Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of YHWH; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of YHWH."
The law never saved anyone. Only Jesus kept perfect law and only by being in Him can we keep the law. Jesus is the reason we face no condemnation and why we are to look forward to judgement day with boldness! Walk in fear and darkness if you prefer, I will walk in the light that is the Truth. We are not saved by law or confession we are saved by grace through faith. Stop being held captive by what you think or feel and be set free by having faith in what Jesus did and still does, believe Him when He says you are the righteousness of God in Christ!
Not trying to be harsh nor a ear tickling soothsayer, just trying to show truth using the word;
Romans 8:1, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
1 Yahchanan (John) 2:6, "He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk as He walked."
Yahchanan (John) 14:23, "Yahshua answered, and said to him: If a man loves Me, he will keep My teachings and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."
John (Yahchanan) 15:4-6, "Abide in Me, and I in you. Just as the branch cannot produce fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."
Romans 8:1, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
1 Yahchanan (John) 2:6, "He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk as He walked."
Yahchanan (John) 14:23, "Yahshua answered, and said to him: If a man loves Me, he will keep My teachings and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."
John (Yahchanan) 15:4-6, "Abide in Me, and I in you. Just as the branch cannot produce fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."
T
TheSearcherMan
Guest
Hello to everyone, may God bless all of you!
Got some questions for you on this one, that is if you don't mind. No offense is intended, I will leave at anytime if you so desire.
Why would the Creator and Ruler of the entire universe, come down personally, use his own finger to write 10 Commandments in stone, and then expect his Commandments to be called or named the Commandments of somebody else? Mosaic Law, or, Law of Moses etc.?
Got some questions for you on this one, that is if you don't mind. No offense is intended, I will leave at anytime if you so desire.
Why would the Creator and Ruler of the entire universe, come down personally, use his own finger to write 10 Commandments in stone, and then expect his Commandments to be called or named the Commandments of somebody else? Mosaic Law, or, Law of Moses etc.?
Good question. The Most High, YHWH, said He commanded it THROUGH Moses;
Malchi 4:1-6, “For look, the day shall come, burning like a furnace, and all the proud, and every wrongdoer shall be stubble. And the day that shall come shall burn them up,” said יהוה of hosts, “which leaves to them neither root nor branch. But to you who fear My Name the Sun of Righteousness shall arise with healing in His wings. And you shall go out and leap for joy like calves from the stall. And you shall trample the wrongdoers, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,” said יהוה of hosts. Remember the Torah of Mosheh, My servant, which I commanded him in Ḥorĕḇ for all Yisra’ĕl – laws and right-rulings. See, I am sending you Ĕliyah the prophet before the coming of the great and awesome day of יהוה. And he shall turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with utter destruction.”
Malachi 4:1-6
New International Version
1“Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the Lord Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them. 2But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves. 3Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act,” says the Lord Almighty.
4“Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.
5“See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. 6He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”
Malachi 4:1-6
English Standard Version
1a “For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. 2But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. 3And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the Lord of hosts.
4“Remember the law of my servant Moses, the statutes and rulesb that I commanded him at Horeb for all Israel.
5“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. 6And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction.”
Romans 9:6-8, "However, it is not as though YHWH's plan had failed. For it is not everyone who is a descendant of Israyl who belongs to Israyl. Nor, just because they are his descendants, are they all Abraham's children; but: In Isaac will your seed be called. That is, it is not those who are the children of the flesh who are YHWH's children; but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's seed."
I believe people lay it on Moses so they can more easily ignore it. However it is in Scripture commonly refered to as from Moses, but in context given through Moses.
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The bible says the law Is spiritual but I am carnal,sold under sin.
Sin Is not Imputed where there Is no law.The law was given by Moses,GRACE and TRUTH came by JESUS.
The law was about purifying the outward man.
GOD Is a Spirit.
The spirits of just men were made perfect and GOD wants the reborn person to be clean In Truth and not just In word.
T
TheSearcherMan
Guest
"Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound" Romans 6:1 If we are no longer as most would say bound by those Tables of Stone, and the Law is not written in ones heart, then how does one know sin?
Romans 3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."
Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"
Romans 6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means!How can we who died to sin still live in it?"
1 John 3:4, "Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the Law: for sin is the transgression of the Law."
Romans 7:7 What? Can anyone therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet.
12 Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous*.
13 Did that which is *righteous, then, become death to me?By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through that which was righteous, so that through the commandments, sin might become utterly sinful.
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I was carnal, sold into the power of sin.
16 And if I did what I did not want to do, I agreed that the Law is righteous.
17 As it was, it was no longer I myself who did it, but it was sin living in me.
22 For I delight in the Law of Yahweh according to the inward man*;
23 But I saw another law* at work in the members of my body,waging war against the Law in my *mind, and bringing me into captivity of the *law of sin, which is in my members.
25 Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin.
Romans 8:2 Because through Yahshua Messiah, the Law of the Spirit has set me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I was carnal, sold into the power of sin.
Romans 8:3 For what the Law was powerless to do, in that men sought to defeat; overthrow, fit, Yahweh did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, to bear witness against sin. And so He condemned the sins of all mankind."
1 John 3:4, "Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the Law: for sin is the transgression of the Law."
Romans 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I was carnal, sold into the power of sin.
Romans 8:5-8 (ESV), "For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"
Romans 6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means!How can we who died to sin still live in it?"
1 John 3:4, "Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the Law: for sin is the transgression of the Law."
Romans 7:7 What? Can anyone therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet.
12 Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous*.
13 Did that which is *righteous, then, become death to me?By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through that which was righteous, so that through the commandments, sin might become utterly sinful.
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I was carnal, sold into the power of sin.
16 And if I did what I did not want to do, I agreed that the Law is righteous.
17 As it was, it was no longer I myself who did it, but it was sin living in me.
22 For I delight in the Law of Yahweh according to the inward man*;
23 But I saw another law* at work in the members of my body,waging war against the Law in my *mind, and bringing me into captivity of the *law of sin, which is in my members.
25 Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin.
Romans 8:2 Because through Yahshua Messiah, the Law of the Spirit has set me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I was carnal, sold into the power of sin.
Romans 8:3 For what the Law was powerless to do, in that men sought to defeat; overthrow, fit, Yahweh did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, to bear witness against sin. And so He condemned the sins of all mankind."
1 John 3:4, "Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the Law: for sin is the transgression of the Law."
Romans 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I was carnal, sold into the power of sin.
Romans 8:5-8 (ESV), "For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
T
TheSearcherMan
Guest
OK with all of that said, is the law expired? Note what I'm asking. I'm NOT asking, "are we saved by the law". I'm NOT asking "do we have to keep the law or not?" All of these are different questions for a different thread.
I am asking "does the law STILL EXIST or doesn't it?" "Is it expired" (like the title of this thread suggests)?
You don't have to answer this question personally. This isn't a personal challenge to you. But what i'm arguing against is the premise that suggests The Law was somehow the problem to solve; that it was the enemy of mankind, or that needed to be "killed off" (as one phrased it) to set us free. This is categorically wrong. It sounds right, but it's so completely wrong.
Whether one's argues on the side of "Grace-only" or on the side of "Grace then obedience", there is no foundation for *either side* to stand on if the law no longer exists. It obliterates the Gospel because instead of saying "Christ saved us from sin", it's saying "Christ saved us from the Law", or even that "Christ saved us from God" or from himself; that we we're "in bondage to the law", instead of being "in bondage to sin". And I would be irresponsible as a brother in Christ if I didn't attack this spirit of error that a great many brothers and sisters in Christ are accepting.
If the law (the core of which was spoken by God and represented by the stone tablets; taken from the BASE of God's heavenly throne and placed in the BASE of God's earthly representation, which was then COVERED by his mercy seat...so he sits on them) expired, it is saying God was UNJUST to give his law to the world in the first place. That He was the one who was wrong who needed to repent to us. That the law IS the flesh. That the law IS sin. That the law is good for nothing. That the law is the reason for our condemnation. But without the law, God's throne is hollow; empty.
This view is a more sophisticated way of saying, "well why did God put the forbidden tree in the garden in the first place if he knew Adam would eat of it? So all of this suffering is God's fault. God is guilty. God has no right to rule because he's not *just*, but an unfair being."
No, WE are the reason for our condemnation, not the Law and not God.
Romans 3:19-31 NIV {brackets mine}
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
{^Verses 19 & 20 explain why the Law was given. It is the scales that measure us as "guilty" or "innocent".}
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
{^If the law expired at the cross with Christ it means *no one* has been guilty of sin for the past 2000 years. Neither believer, nor nonbeliever. This view is incorrect.}
25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—
26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.
28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.
31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
We can not nullify the law with our faith, which is exactly what saying "the law is expired because of Christ" does. No we uphold the law by faith in Christ. Here's how:
God's Law - Shows the ENTIRE WORLD that God is Holy, Just, and Righteous in his judgment of the entire world as to whether they're sinners or not; again, as "guilty" OR "innocent" in God's eyes. The Scales of Justice.
God's Grace - Shows the ENTIRE WORLD that God is ALSO Justifier of those who have faith in Christ, by freeing them from the law's judgment; weighing them on those scales of justice as "innocent". The scales don't expire with faith in Christ.
God's Law (given through Moses) - Shows the ENTIRE WORLD that God is King and Judge.
God's Grace (given through Christ) - Shows the ENTIRE WORLD that God is Savior of those who believe. Saved from what? Judgment for sin.
If the law expired there is no need for a savior because there is no longer crime for God to judge. This is why The Law leads us TO Christ. There is no reason for people to come "to Christ" for salvation if the law expired. Whether in stone form (shadow) or spirit form (reality), God's law explains to us why we are wrong; how we are sinners.
That is good advice - but as we have seen and noted - TELLING people what to do is just NOT working, whether OT or NT - it's just not working. Not because we don't want to obey and please God but because we are weak in the flesh.
As far as I can see a way out is to ''learn to walk with Jesus holding His hand literally 24/7 !!!
There are several instances in the OT where God says He took and led Israel ''by the hand. I think that also works for us but it will require a ''submissive spirit - which I think is missing in people today. It would require going back in time and 'starting all over in our new walk with Christ !
This is what I am doing - it's called 'learning obedience Heb5v8,9.
Does God expect that you don't murder, that you love Him, that you don't covet?
Maybe to define what you mean when you say "bound" would help.
You make some very good points my friend, worth further discussion - but as usual they will be lost in the tumult of everyone's opinions....which abound on these forums moving ahead ever faster. There is no keeping up with any particular topic at the speed they change. (maybe it's just my age, lol)
I agree - LAW is a hotbed of confusion when we don't specify WHICH law we are talking about.
To use that simple term may have been alright for Paul who was a Lawyer , but gentiles/christians are IGNORANT of all the finer details that applied/apply to another nation (Israel).
Exactly, and that is the mistake Christians/gentiles make. They lump the Commandments God personally gave ex 20v1; Deut 5v22, in with the commandments through Moses and so abolish ALL.
So they are not left with anything that is eternal,spiritual,holy just and good - they are wide open to sin , and it is rampant in the world today !
Transgressing the law is not an issue with them , they simply nailed it to the cross, showing God what they think of it.
They may KNOW about it but have never LIVED it - big difference. Have you ever walked a mile in someone else's shoes ?
This is a good story but how many Christians apply it to their own life and actually ''walk with Jesus 24/7 ? Do you think that slave took sat/sun off to do her own thing ? Christians do....so they are not as loyal as they OUGHT to be.