Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?

[valiant]

Tell me, genius, when did God bring wisdom forth; and when was it given birth, and when did it have emotions, in the following passage of Scripture, provided for us by Solomon:

Beginning in Proverbs 8, pertaining to the attributes of God's Wisdom, I refer specifically to verses 22 through 36, that clearly identify the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus Christ as the WHO, of the Wisdom of God. [From the NIV].

They do nothing of the kind

"The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works, before His deed of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, [Vs 22-24]

This is simply a pictorial description of the bringing forth of God's wisdom. From eternity, from the beginning. In other words God had His wisdom from the beginning, from eternity.

when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before He made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. [Vs 24-26]

The verb which you translate as 'given birth' has wide meanings. It here indicated that God had brought forth His wisdom from eternity.

I was there when He set the heavens in place, when He marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when He established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, [Vs 27-28]

when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side. I was filled with delight day after day, [Vs 29-30]

This was simply a poetic personification of His wisdom.

rejoicing always in His presence, rejoicing in His whole world and delighting in mankind. Now then my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. [Vs 30-33]

This confirms that it is God's wisdom. His listeners are also to listen to His instruction and be wise.

Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. For whoever finds me finds life and receives favor from the Lord. But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death." [Vs 34-36]

That is right. To receive God's wisdom is right, and the one who finds it finds favour from the Lord. He has previously told 'the wise' to seek more of His wisdom (3.21 with 35). See also 4.2, 7; who is insight? LOL Note in 5.1 Solomon tells him 'Be attentive to MY wisdom.' See also 7.4.

That Jesus is the Wisdom [Power and knowledge] of God is made abundantly clear in 1 Cor.1:24 and Col.2:2-3 The firstborn over all creation, as recorded in Col.1:15!

! Cor 1.30 says God made Him our wisdom, our righteousness, our sanctification and our redemption. wisdom is thus one of His attributes.

in Col 1.26 it speaks of teaching every man in all wisdom then in Col 2.2-3 he speaks of Him as the One in Whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Doesn't sound as though Jesus is being called Wisdom.

As for Him being the firstborn over all creation that fits well with God the Son..

I fear for your soul.

 

[bluto]

Who do you think I'm talking about? See my post 1315 for your answer, if you need one.


Quasar92

Oh please quasar, give me a break! If I knew who exactly you were talking about I would not have asked you the question? What do you do, tell me to go and read post number 1315. Why? My question was simple in that all you have to do is tell me who that pre-incarnate person was? Why do you feel the need to be hiding behind your words when challenged with providing a name which would be a one word answer? So again, who was that pre-incarnate person quasar?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[popeye]

Oh please quasar, give me a break! If I knew who exactly you were talking about I would not have asked you the question? What do you do, tell me to go and read post number 1315. Why? My question was simple in that all you have to do is tell me who that pre-incarnate person was? Why do you feel the need to be hiding behind your words when challenged with providing a name which would be a one word answer? So again, who was that pre-incarnate person quasar?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

I can tell you this.
If you copy and past his exact words from that post (the ones he is evading)

He also has a comeback for that too.

I just can't remember what it is LOL

 

[Quasar92]

I can tell you this.
If you copy and past his exact words from that post (the ones he is evading)

He also has a comeback for that too.

I just can't remember what it is LOL

And just what am I being accused of evading, that you are evading?



Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

They do nothing of the kind



This is simply a pictorial description of the bringing forth of God's wisdom. From eternity, from the beginning. In other words God had His wisdom from the beginning, from eternity.



The verb which you translate as 'given birth' has wide meanings. It here indicated that God had brought forth His wisdom from eternity.




This was simply a poetic personification of His wisdom.



This confirms that it is God's wisdom. His listeners are also to listen to His instruction and be wise.



That is right. To receive God's wisdom is right, and the one who finds it finds favour from the Lord. He has previously told 'the wise' to seek more of His wisdom (3.21 with 35). See also 4.2, 7; who is insight? LOL Note in 5.1 Solomon tells him 'Be attentive to MY wisdom.' See also 7.4.



! Cor 1.30 says God made Him our wisdom, our righteousness, our sanctification and our redemption. wisdom is thus one of His attributes.

in Col 1.26 it speaks of teaching every man in all wisdom then in Col 2.2-3 he speaks of Him as the One in Whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Doesn't sound as though Jesus is being called Wisdom.

As for Him being the firstborn over all creation that fits well with God the Son..

I fear for your soul.

That the personification of wisdom is the forerunner of Jesus Christ, as the wisdom, power and knowledge of God, revealed as the firstborn over all creation is fully endorsed by the following esteemed theologians; as recorded in the annotation in the 1967 Scofield KJV Bible, on page 677:

1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D.


You should be in fear for your own soul! Mine is fully secured by the Lord!


Quasar92

 

[jaybird88]

And just what am I being accused of evading, that you are evading?

Quasar92

from what i see your are being accused of following the bible rather than man made doctrines. one guy even said he feared for your soul, apparently the fate of your soul is determined by man and not your faith in where the Spirit leads you.

 

[Quasar92]

Oh please quasar, give me a break! If I knew who exactly you were talking about I would not have asked you the question? What do you do, tell me to go and read post number 1315. Why? My question was simple in that all you have to do is tell me who that pre-incarnate person was? Why do you feel the need to be hiding behind your words when challenged with providing a name which would be a one word answer? So again, who was that pre-incarnate person quasar?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

That's post 1251, Bluto, not 1215. Bot not to worry, Ill bring it to you. Where you will find the firstborn over all creation, described in Pr.8:22-36, is in the paragraph in bold, in the following:

The Bible, Jesus and His disciples teach the following, not a bogus Trinity:

Beginning with: God is Spirit according to: Jn.1:18; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.3:17-18; Col.1:15; 1 Tim.1:17; 1 Tim.6:16 Heb.11.27 and 1 Jn.4:12. That no one has ever seen Him and that He is invisible, are found in Jn.1:18; Rom.1:20; Col.1:15; 1 Tim.1:17; Heb.11:27 [Moses, Abraham and Jacob all saw the pre-incarnate Jesus, not God, the invisible Holy Spirit] and in 1 Jn.4:12.

God is Holy: God, who is Spirit according to the Scriptures, is also Holy, according to Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Ps.99:3; Ps.99:5 and 1 Pet.1:15-16.

Therefore, according to the Scriptures, there is no option to the fact, God is the Holy Spirit!

There was only one God throughout the entire OT according to Isa.43:10; 44:6 and 45:5. Which rules out Jesus being co-eternal with God, the Holy Spirit. The Scriptural description of his origin is addressed below. It can be described as Jesus auto-biography, written by king Solomon as inspired by the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is also the Father of Jesus according to Mt.1:20, Lk.1:35 and Acts 13:33.

The Holy Spirit, who is our One and Only God [Isa.43:10 and 44:6], not only stated He was the Father of Israel , in Dt.32:6, but also prophecied He was going to be the Father of a Son, in: 2 Sam.7:14; 1 Chr.17:13 and in Ps.2:7. Which was fulfilled in Mt.1:20, Lk.1:35 and Acts 13:33. Therefore, there is no option to the Scriptural fact: God, the Holy Spirit was/is the Father of Jesus Christ. And gave a body to the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus, by the virgin Mary, Confirming Jn.1:14 and Heb.10:5.

The pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus [See Jn.17:5] then became the incarnate Son of God in Lk.1:35, and received His name, Jesus, in Lk.1:31. Literally, God the Son, fulfilling the prophecy of the Holy Spirit, in Ps.45:6-7, 110:1 and Isa.7:14. Empowered to give/baptize with the Holy Spirit, according to Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16; Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3. To perform 36 miracles, of raising some from the dead, healing people with leprosy and other terminal illnesses as well as the blind and the deaf. Which no normal human being could ever do.

The title, "Father," given to God, the Holy Spirit, is nothing more than the very same title all men receive who produce children of their own! It does not constitute making God, who is the Holy Spirit, two persons through the use of His title as Father, trinitarians attempt to do! Which is the reason why Mt.28:19 is bogus, because it was obviously altered by unscrupulous scribes obsessed with belief in the doctrine of the Trinity. In addition 1 Jn.5:7 was a late Latin insert on, around the 11th or 12th centuries that never appeared in any of the earlier Greek manuscripts.

Mt.28:19 was altered and 1 Jn.5:7 was an insert: The Scriptures reveal, God to be the Holy Spirit and the Father [His title] of Jesus Christ. Therefore the use of the term Father with the Holy Spirit by trinitarians as two persons [together with the Son, as their truine formula] is in error, because the Father is the Holy Spirit, one person, not two! In addition to the fact: A. The Son did not exist in the OT. B. The pre-incarnate spirit who later became Jesus, was created, according to Pr.8:22-36, as documented above, and confirmed in Col.1:15 as the firstborn over all creation. Review what Jesus said in Jn.14:10, that the Father lives in Him, doing His work. That can only be the Holy Spirit!


Quasar02

 

[Quasar92]

from what i see your are being accused of following the bible rather than man made doctrines. one guy even said he feared for your soul, apparently the fate of your soul is determined by man and not your faith in where the Spirit leads you.

LOL! Quite right, jaybird. An astute observation!


Quasar92

 

[fredoheaven]

That the personification of wisdom is the forerunner of Jesus Christ, as the wisdom, power and knowledge of God, revealed as the firstborn over all creation is fully endorsed by the following esteemed theologians; as recorded in the annotation in the 1967 Scofield KJV Bible, on page 677:

1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D.


You should be in fear for your own soul! Mine is fully secured by the Lord!


Quasar92

Umm! there you are!

 

[fredoheaven]

That's post 1251, Bluto, not 1215. Bot not to worry, Ill bring it to you. Where you will find the firstborn over all creation, described in Pr.8:22-36, is in the paragraph in bold, in the following:

The Bible, Jesus and His disciples teach the following, not a bogus Trinity:

Beginning with: God is Spirit according to: Jn.1:18; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.3:17-18; Col.1:15; 1 Tim.1:17; 1 Tim.6:16 Heb.11.27 and 1 Jn.4:12. That no one has ever seen Him and that He is invisible, are found in Jn.1:18; Rom.1:20; Col.1:15; 1 Tim.1:17; Heb.11:27 [Moses, Abraham and Jacob all saw the pre-incarnate Jesus, not God, the invisible Holy Spirit] and in 1 Jn.4:12.

God is Holy: God, who is Spirit according to the Scriptures, is also Holy, according to Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Ps.99:3; Ps.99:5 and 1 Pet.1:15-16.

Therefore, according to the Scriptures, there is no option to the fact, God is the Holy Spirit!

There was only one God throughout the entire OT according to Isa.43:10; 44:6 and 45:5. Which rules out Jesus being co-eternal with God, the Holy Spirit. The Scriptural description of his origin is addressed below. It can be described as Jesus auto-biography, written by king Solomon as inspired by the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is also the Father of Jesus according to Mt.1:20, Lk.1:35 and Acts 13:33.

The Holy Spirit, who is our One and Only God [Isa.43:10 and 44:6], not only stated He was the Father of Israel , in Dt.32:6, but also prophecied He was going to be the Father of a Son, in: 2 Sam.7:14; 1 Chr.17:13 and in Ps.2:7. Which was fulfilled in Mt.1:20, Lk.1:35 and Acts 13:33. Therefore, there is no option to the Scriptural fact: God, the Holy Spirit was/is the Father of Jesus Christ. And gave a body to the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus, by the virgin Mary, Confirming Jn.1:14 and Heb.10:5.

The pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus [See Jn.17:5] then became the incarnate Son of God in Lk.1:35, and received His name, Jesus, in Lk.1:31. Literally, God the Son, fulfilling the prophecy of the Holy Spirit, in Ps.45:6-7, 110:1 and Isa.7:14. Empowered to give/baptize with the Holy Spirit, according to Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16; Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3. To perform 36 miracles, of raising some from the dead, healing people with leprosy and other terminal illnesses as well as the blind and the deaf. Which no normal human being could ever do.

The title, "Father," given to God, the Holy Spirit, is nothing more than the very same title all men receive who produce children of their own! It does not constitute making God, who is the Holy Spirit, two persons through the use of His title as Father, trinitarians attempt to do! Which is the reason why Mt.28:19 is bogus, because it was obviously altered by unscrupulous scribes obsessed with belief in the doctrine of the Trinity. In addition 1 Jn.5:7 was a late Latin insert on, around the 11th or 12th centuries that never appeared in any of the earlier Greek manuscripts.

Mt.28:19 was altered and 1 Jn.5:7 was an insert: The Scriptures reveal, God to be the Holy Spirit and the Father [His title] of Jesus Christ. Therefore the use of the term Father with the Holy Spirit by trinitarians as two persons [together with the Son, as their truine formula] is in error, because the Father is the Holy Spirit, one person, not two! In addition to the fact: A. The Son did not exist in the OT. B. The pre-incarnate spirit who later became Jesus, was created, according to Pr.8:22-36, as documented above, and confirmed in Col.1:15 as the firstborn over all creation. Review what Jesus said in Jn.14:10, that the Father lives in Him, doing His work. That can only be the Holy Spirit!


Quasar02

Any fresh truths out there?

 

[bluto]

how do we know the thomas passage is not the same context as when the Father made Moses a god to pharaoh? and if it is as you say then that does not sync with the following NT books, in the greetings they always adress the Father as the Most High and Jesus as Lord. i think there is a difference in the two. the Son i agree is one with the Father but i dont think that makes the Son and the Father one and the same, if that was so then the son wouldnt be a gate to the Father, the way to the Father, the means to get to the Father, the Son would simply be the goal and He never said that.



i should not have suggested you are bending and twisting, that was wrong to say. we all are passionate about what we believe.



it simply meant the Son could be full of the Father but it doesnt necessarily make the Son the Father. i think its more complex.

How do we know jaybird? Well for one thing Jesus Christ does not correct Thomas and say I am not your "Lord and God." To ascribe these two titles to Jesus Christ "Lord & God" is the highest essence of worship. And did you notice God did not ascribe the title "Lord" to Moses? Did you also notice that Moses was never accused or even convicted of blasphemy?

You ask "How do we know?" How do you know that quasar is right when he says Proverbs 9:22 and the other verses refer specifically to Jesus Christ? My Bible says the subject of Proverbs 8 and 9 is "wisdom," I don't see Jesus Christ name anywhere in there, why do you and quasar?

You also brought up the issue of "greetings?" Ok, how do you know the following greeting is correct? "Simot Peter a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by (or how jaybird?) the righteousness OF OUR GOD AND SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST." 2 Peter 1:2. How come God the Father is not mentioned in this greeting jaybird?

And lastly regarding your last sentence, "it simply meant the Son could be full of the Father but it doesnt necessarily make the Son the Father. i think its more complex." NO one that I know of or at least no trinitarian teaches that the Son is the Father. That is what oneness Pentecostals teach and that is one of the reasons they are a "cult." The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father. In fact, God the Father is not the Holy Spirit nor is the Holy Spirit the Father as quasar teaches. Now what are your excuses going to be for saying I'm wrong?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[bluto]

More evasion quasar so let me help you out? Please explain to all of our viewers that if you believe (as you do) the person's name is Jesus Christ that EXISTED before the same person whose name is Jesus Christ did not pre-exist His incarnation as a man but yet is the same person? How does that work in your world?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Demi777]

How do we know jaybird? Well for one thing Jesus Christ does not correct Thomas and say I am not your "Lord and God." To ascribe these two titles to Jesus Christ "Lord & God" is the highest essence of worship. And did you notice God did not ascribe the title "Lord" to Moses? Did you also notice that Moses was never accused or even convicted of blasphemy?

You ask "How do we know?" How do you know that quasar is right when he says Proverbs 9:22 and the other verses refer specifically to Jesus Christ? My Bible says the subject of Proverbs 8 and 9 is "wisdom," I don't see Jesus Christ name anywhere in there, why do you and quasar?

You also brought up the issue of "greetings?" Ok, how do you know the following greeting is correct? "Simot Peter a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by (or how jaybird?) the righteousness OF OUR GOD AND SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST." 2 Peter 1:2. How come God the Father is not mentioned in this greeting jaybird?

And lastly regarding your last sentence, "it simply meant the Son could be full of the Father but it doesnt necessarily make the Son the Father. i think its more complex." NO one that I know of or at least no trinitarian teaches that the Son is the Father. That is what oneness Pentecostals teach and that is one of the reasons they are a "cult." The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father. In fact, God the Father is not the Holy Spirit nor is the Holy Spirit the Father as quasar teaches. Now what are your excuses going to be for saying I'm wrong?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

and? let oneness pentecostals preach what they want. Its a fact that the trinity isnt in the bible. The trinity came from the catholic church, then people started saying Godhead and kept making up more and more ways to dodge the people saying ''how come your condemn the heathens for having more than one God, you have 3 yourself''.
Like you said, Father is not Jesus and Jesus is not Holy Spirit. For me they are 3 different persons. Plus there are the 7 spirits of God as well so we should have a tenity, not a trinity.
Where is the problem that some people do not believe the trinity is true? If God and Jesus were the same then why did he come and say ''this is my son in whom I am well pleased''. why did Jesus say ''pray to my father (lords prayer), etc.
Lets just accept that people arent all the same and we all have different revelations. Slamming people with bible verses trying to corner them will not solve the discussion.

 

[Socreta93]

Question is believing in the trinity a requirement to be saved? If not then people just make a big deal about it. If yes then I don't know what to believe in this thread.

 

[Socreta93]

and? let oneness pentecostals preach what they want. Its a fact that the trinity isnt in the bible. The trinity came from the catholic church, then people started saying Godhead and kept making up more and more ways to dodge the people saying ''how come your condemn the heathens for having more than one God, you have 3 yourself''.
Like you said, Father is not Jesus and Jesus is not Holy Spirit. For me they are 3 different persons. Plus there are the 7 spirits of God as well so we should have a tenity, not a trinity.
Where is the problem that some people do not believe the trinity is true? If God and Jesus were the same then why did he come and say ''this is my son in whom I am well pleased''. why did Jesus say ''pray to my father (lords prayer), etc.
Lets just accept that people arent all the same and we all have different revelations. Slamming people with bible verses trying to corner them will not solve the discussion.

Oneness Pentecostals? What's that supposed to mean?

 

[Demi777]

Oneness Pentecostals? What's that supposed to mean?

I didnt get all too deep into it but people say its a ''cult''. From what ive read from em I have mixed feelings about it, when I got time ill dig deeper into it. For me it seems like another denomination

 

[Quasar92]

More evasion quasar so let me help you out? Please explain to all of our viewers that if you believe (as you do) the person's name is Jesus Christ that EXISTED before the same person whose name is Jesus Christ did not pre-exist His incarnation as a man but yet is the same person? How does that work in your world?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

I have evaded nothing! There is nothing you can post that I avoid! If you have something to contribute to this thread that I have posted, then do so with Scriptural support and quit whining!

You do not read, bluto. I have never made any such statement that the FIRSTBORN over all creation person, described in Pr.8:22-36, who became Jesus HAD THE NAME of Jesus, until it was given to Him in Lk.1:31! He remained completely nameless in the OT, but appeared in many theophanies then, such as in Gen.18 and 32, Jos.5:13-15 and Dan.3:24-24 and in 12:7!

I have always made the qualifying remarks that the PRE-INCARNATE person, seen in Jn.1:1-2 and in Jn.17:5, whom God brought forth before the world began, in Pr.8-22-25,, the FIRSTBORN over all creation, in Col.1:15, became the human Jesus is the same person.


Quasar92

 

[wolfwint]

Oneness Pentecostals? What's that supposed to mean?

Hi Socreta, i found this in Wikipedia

"Oneness Pentecostal theology affirms that there exists only one God in all the universe. It affirms the deity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. However, Oneness theology denies the Trinity.
Oneness theology denies the Trinity and teaches that God is a single person who was "manifested as Father in creation and as the Father of the Son, in the Son for our redemption, and as the Holy Spirit in our regeneration."1 Another way of looking at it is that God revealed himself as Father in the Old Testament, as the Son in Jesus during Christ’s ministry on earth, and now as the Holy Spirit after Christ’s ascension.

In addition, oneness theology also maintains that baptism is a necessary part of salvation; that is, in order to be saved, one must be baptized and by immersion. If you are not baptized, you cannot be saved. However, not only must baptism be by immersion but also it must be administered with the formula "In Jesus’ name" rather than the formula "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" which is mentioned in Matt. 28:19." Quote end from wikipedia

Well, I see an trinity in the bible. But we really must confess that not everything what is written in the bible is explained to us. God father is God; Jesus Christ the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God, they are in the bible have the attribute to be God. If we dont believe that there are 3 Gods then we have to accept the trinity. Even we dont know 100% how this works.
But we know does it works! f.e. in Genesis we find the name of God "Elohim" which is plural. And to whom spoke God in Genesis 1,26: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."
I dont think that he spoke to angels, because they are not creators and are also not in Gods image.

 

[valiant]

I have evaded nothing! There is nothing you can post that I avoid! If you have something to contribute to this thread that I have posted, then do so with Scriptural support and quit whining!

You do not read, bluto. I have never made any such statement that the FIRSTBORN over all creation person, described in Pr.8:22-36, who became Jesus HAD THE NAME of Jesus, until it was given to Him in Lk.1:31! He remained completely nameless in the OT, but appeared in many theophanies then, such as in Gen.18 and 32, Jos.5:13-15 and Dan.3:24-24 and in 12:7!

I have always made the qualifying remarks that the PRE-INCARNATE person, seen in Jn.1:1-2 and in Jn.17:5, whom God brought forth before the world began, in Pr.8-22-25,, the FIRSTBORN over all creation, in Col.1:15, became the human Jesus is the same person.


Quasar92

Explain these verses then and don't dodge them

Jesus said, 'That all may honour the Son AS they honour the Father. He who does not honour the Son (as they honour the Father), does not honour the Father Who sent Him.' John 5.23

Equal honour = equality of being


“For as the Father has life in Himself, so has He given the Son to have life in Himself” John 5.26

To have the prerogative of life is God's alone.


Jesus answered them, “MY Father is working still and I am working.” This was why the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God John 5.17-18

no one had ever dared to speak of My Father. He alone could claim Him as My Father.


“Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM” John 8.58#

Jesus here claims the Name of God.


Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father and we will be satisfied.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know Me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, Show us the Father. John 14.9

Jesus made clear that to have seen Him was to have seen God in another form.


“And this is life eternal, that they may know you the only true God and Jesus Christ Whom You have sent – and now, Father, glorify Me with the glory which I had with You before the world was” (John 17.5)




John said, 'In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was face to face with God, and What God was the Word was, – and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1.1, 14).


The risen Jesus said, “Baptising them in the (one) Name (YHWH) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” Matthew 28.19


And for us there is ONE GOD, the Father, from Whom are all things and for Whom we exist, and ONE LORD through Whom are all things and through Whom we exist 1 Corinthians 8.6 (in contrast with the many gods and lords)


He is the IMAGE of the invisible God, the firstBORN before the whole of creation Colossians 1.15


In Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form Colossians 2.9


Awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ Titus 2.13


When the goodness and kindness of God our Saviour appeared, – which He poured out upon us through Jesus Christ our Saviour Titus 3.4, 6


In the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ – of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ 2 Peter 1.1 ,11 (exactly parallel in the Greek).


Who being the outshining of His glory and the exact representation of His substance Heb 1.3


He is the SON in contrast to all angels Heb 1.4 following.


Thomas called Him, “my LORD and my God”. John 20.28

To deny the Godhead of Jesus is to invalidate His sacrifice as being sufficient for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Socreta93]

I didnt get all too deep into it but people say its a ''cult''. From what ive read from em I have mixed feelings about it, when I got time ill dig deeper into it. For me it seems like another denomination

Well I go to an A/G Pentecostal church and it's not a cult. Don't know about all Pentecostal churches in the U.S. but mine and surrounding churches are not a cult. I can promise you that