Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

Persuaded · Nov 8, 2016

I have often wondered what the pre-trib believers will do when the man of sin is revealed, drives Israel into the wilderness and then makes war on the saints for 42 months, and they are still here.
The Scripture is so plain. It is only wishful thinking that "the church" is so righteous today that God will snatch it out.
I guess those Christians in the Middle East that are suffering tribulation today are not worthy like they are.

PlainWord · Nov 8, 2016

Quasar92 said:

Why is it when I speak forcefully about what I believe that I am a "know it all" but when you do, you're inspired?

Zec 13:9 deals with Israel and only Israel. Go back and read verse 1: “In that day a fountain shall be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem...

So, in this passage we have 2/3 of Israel being killed. This coincides with the Great Tribulation of Mat 24:21.

Rev 6-19 employs much figurative language and BTW, nothing identifies it as the "Great Tribulation" as spoken of by Jesus. You incorrectly assume this. I've shown you before what they mean.

Rev 19:11-21 deals with the Wrath of God which is associated with the Return of the Lord at the Second Coming.

Great Tribulation (of Israel) followed by Wrath (Day of the Lord). That is the order of events.

PlainWord · Nov 8, 2016

Persuaded said:

I have often wondered what the pre-trib believers will do when the man of sin is revealed, drives Israel into the wilderness and then makes war on the saints for 42 months, and they are still here.
The Scripture is so plain. It is only wishful thinking that "the church" is so righteous today that God will snatch it out.
I guess those Christians in the Middle East that are suffering tribulation today are not worthy like they are.

EXACTLY!!! What will they say then??? No wonder they get scoffed at.

Ahwatukee · Nov 8, 2016

Persuaded said:

Good day Persuaded,

First, I believe that the church will be removed prior to that first seal being opened, which is symbolic for the man of lawlessness being revealed, that antichrist. But for the sake of your question, myself along with those who hold to the same belief, as soon as we saw some political leader make a seven year covenant with Israel, we would know that we will have entered into that last seven years, recognizing him as the antichrist. I would then go to prayer asking God to give me strength to endure all that is about to happen, because I would know that the rest of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments where yet to come and that by them the population of the earth is going to be decimated and all governments dismantled. I and others would basically be preparing to die by keeping our testimony for Christ and the word of God. That is what I and I am sure that every other pre-trib believer would do. Now here is the problem with what you are suggesting:

By your statement above, it tells me that you, as with many others, are not discerning that there is a difference between common trial and tribulation vs. God's coming wrath. The apostles, first century Christians and everyone since then, has been suffering common trials and tribulation which comes at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. None of them have suffered the wrath of God, which will be a specific, unprecedented time where God will begin pouring out his wrath directly upon a Christ rejecting world, decimating the majority of the population and dismantling all human government leading up to Christ's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. It is this time of wrath that believers are not appointed to suffer, for Christ has rescued us from God's coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10, 5:9 & Rom.5:9). Therefore, your reference to Christians suffering in the middle east is misapplied, for they are not suffering the wrath of God, but common trials and tribulation that Jesus said we would have.

Not understanding the coming wrath is one of the reasons why some expositors err in regards to interpreting end-time events. It is necessary to understand the difference between common trials and tribulations vs. God's coming wrath, its severity and magnitude. This is what those in Christ are not to suffer.

Jesus took upon himself the wrath that we deserve and thereby reconciled all believers, bringing them back into a right standing with God and that because Jesus satisfied God's wrath as a result of our sins. Therefore, anyone who believes that God is going to put those in Christ through His coming wrath, is to not truly trust in or understand what Christ did for us. It would be as though Christ did nothing at all and that the wrath that he endured was not recognized.

Regarding the above, not understanding who these saints are is another reason for misinterpreting end-time events i.e. by applying the saints above as referring to the church. I've presented this many times before, but I will do so again here. From Revelation chapter 1 thru the very end of chapter 3, the word ekklessia translated Church is used throughout those chapters. At the same time, the word Hagios translated as Saints is never used within those same chapters. From chapter 4 onward and beginning at 5:8, the word Hagios/Saints is used and the word Ekklesia/Church is never used. This is significant in that, it is one of God's many clues for those who study the deeper truths of scripture. It demonstrates that from chapter 4 onward the church is no longer on the earth. Not once is the word Ekklesia/church used during the narrative within God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

The Hagios/Saints that the beast is given power over for 42 months, which is that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period, are those saints whom the elder told John are those who would come out of the great tribulation. This is that group introduced in Rev.7:9-17 where the elder asks John "These in white robes, who are they and where did they come from?" John's reply is that he doesn't know who they are. The very fact that the elder is even introducing this group tells the reader that they are not the church. This group will be those who will come to believe in Christ after the church has been removed, known as the great tribulation saints (GTS).

Where is the church removed within Revelation?

Rev.1:19 is the key to understanding the order of events in Revelation. Here, Jesus tells John to write what he has seen, what is now and what will take place later:

What you have seen: Everything written from Rev.1:1 to Rev.1:19

What is now: Represented by the letters the seven churches, which also represents the entire church period.

What will take place later: Everything that takes place of the "what is now" i.e. after the church period.

Currently, we are still in the "what is now" part of what John was told to write, meaning that we are still in the church period. Once the church has been completed, the Lord will appear with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and trumpet call of God, which is that voice that sounds like a trumpet. And the dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are still alive will be changed and caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. It is here in Rev.4:1 which is prophetic for the church being caught up, with the voice that sounds like a trumpet saying, "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this" i.e. after the church period.

In conclusion, after Paul outlined the resurrection of the dead and the living being changed and caught up in 1 Thes.4:13-18, he then said, "therefore, comfort one another with these words." Likewise when writing to Titus, Paul referred to the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to him as "the blessed hope." That said, if believers were to go through the time of God's wrath, there would be no blessed hope nor could we comfort one another with his words.

While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

The reason that Paul says to encourage one another and build each other up, is because believers are not appointed to suffer the coming wrath.

So here is my question to you, what are those people going to do, who instead of trusting in the promise that believers are not appointed to suffer the coming wrath, when they realize that the true believers have been removed from the earth and the time of God's wrath has now begun?

I believe that those who are anticipating that believers are to go through God's wrath, instead of trusting in the promise of not being appointed to suffer wrath, are not truly trusting in what Christ did for them. Maybe they will be those who will make up that vast group in white robes and will have been left on earth, because instead of trusting that the Lord rescued us from the coming wrath, they will have instead been anticipating going through God's wrath, not believing in His promise.

Persuaded · Nov 8, 2016

PlainWord said:

From the very beginning of our Lord's church, churches and saints have suffered tribulation just because of their belief in and service to Christ. It came from the Jews, Rome, and for 1000 years from Catholicism. Millions have died during the last 1900 plus years.
Now that tribulation is coming at the hands of Islam in the Middle East and in Africa.
Thank God that that tribulation has not come upon us in the US----But it soon will.
Why is it that those Christians in the US believe that in some way we are so much more righteous than our forefathers and those in the Middle East and Africa, that God is going to snatch us out of this world and we will never have to suffer tribulation. I would think my self very arrogant if I believed that.
I think part of the problem is that some (one poster in particular) who can not understand that the coming tribulation and God wrath are not the same. Tribulation comes before Christ return and wrath comes after.
That is what the Scripture clearly teaches.

Persuaded · Nov 8, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

Good day Persuaded,

First, I believe that the church will be removed prior to that first seal being opened, which is symbolic for the man of lawlessness being revealed, that antichrist. But for the sake of your question, myself along with those who hold to the same belief, as soon as we saw some political leader make a seven year covenant with Israel, we would know that we will have entered into that last seven years, recognizing him as the antichrist. I would then go to prayer asking God to give me strength to endure all that is about to happen, because I would know that the rest of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments where yet to come and that by them the population of the earth is going to be decimated and all governments dismantled. I and others would basically be preparing to die by keeping our testimony for Christ and the word of God. That is what I and I am sure that every other pre-trib believer would do. Now here is the problem with what you are suggesting:

By your statement above, it tells me that you, as with many others, are not discerning that there is a difference between common trial and tribulation vs. God's coming wrath. The apostles, first century Christians and everyone since then, has been suffering common trials and tribulation which comes at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. None of them have suffered the wrath of God, which will be a specific, unprecedented time where God will begin pouring out his wrath directly upon a Christ rejecting world, decimating the majority of the population and dismantling all human government leading up to Christ's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. It is this time of wrath that believers are not appointed to suffer, for Christ has rescued us from God's coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10, 5:9 & Rom.5:9). Therefore, your reference to Christians suffering in the middle east is misapplied, for they are not suffering the wrath of God, but common trials and tribulation that Jesus said we would have.

Not understanding the coming wrath is one of the reasons why some expositors err in regards to interpreting end-time events. It is necessary to understand the difference between common trials and tribulations vs. God's coming wrath, its severity and magnitude. This is what those in Christ are not to suffer.

Jesus took upon himself the wrath that we deserve and thereby reconciled all believers, bringing them back into a right standing with God and that because Jesus satisfied God's wrath as a result of our sins. Therefore, anyone who believes that God is going to put those in Christ through His coming wrath, is to not truly trust in or understand what Christ did for us. It would be as though Christ did nothing at all and that the wrath that he endured was not recognized.

Regarding the above, not understanding who these saints are is another reason for misinterpreting end-time events i.e. by applying the saints above as referring to the church. I've presented this many times before, but I will do so again here. From Revelation chapter 1 thru the very end of chapter 3, the word ekklessia translated Church is used throughout those chapters. At the same time, the word Hagios translated as Saints is never used within those same chapters. From chapter 4 onward and beginning at 5:8, the word Hagios/Saints is used and the word Ekklesia/Church is never used. This is significant in that, it is one of God's many clues for those who study the deeper truths of scripture. It demonstrates that from chapter 4 onward the church is no longer on the earth. Not once is the word Ekklesia/church used during the narrative within God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

The Hagios/Saints that the beast is given power over for 42 months, which is that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period, are those saints whom the elder told John are those who would come out of the great tribulation. This is that group introduced in Rev.7:9-17 where the elder asks John "These in white robes, who are they and where did they come from?" John's reply is that he doesn't know who they are. The very fact that the elder is even introducing this group tells the reader that they are not the church. This group will be those who will come to believe in Christ after the church has been removed, known as the great tribulation saints (GTS).

Where is the church removed within Revelation?

Rev.1:19 is the key to understanding the order of events in Revelation. Here, Jesus tells John to write what he has seen, what is now and what will take place later:

What you have seen: Everything written from Rev.1:1 to Rev.1:19

What is now: Represented by the letters the seven churches, which also represents the entire church period.

What will take place later: Everything that takes place of the "what is now" i.e. after the church period.

Currently, we are still in the "what is now" part of what John was told to write, meaning that we are still in the church period. Once the church has been completed, the Lord will appear with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and trumpet call of God, which is that voice that sounds like a trumpet. And the dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are still alive will be changed and caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. It is here in Rev.4:1 which is prophetic for the church being caught up, with the voice that sounds like a trumpet saying, "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this" i.e. after the church period.

In conclusion, after Paul outlined the resurrection of the dead and the living being changed and caught up in 1 Thes.4:13-18, he then said, "therefore, comfort one another with these words." Likewise when writing to Titus, Paul referred to the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to him as "the blessed hope." That said, if believers were to go through the time of God's wrath, there would be no blessed hope nor could we comfort one another with his words.

While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

The reason that Paul says to encourage one another and build each other up, is because believers are not appointed to suffer the coming wrath.

So here is my question to you, what are those people going to do, who instead of trusting in the promise that believers are not appointed to suffer the coming wrath, when they realize that the true believers have been removed from the earth and the time of God's wrath has now begun?

I believe that those who are anticipating that believers are to go through God's wrath, instead of trusting in the promise of not being appointed to suffer wrath, are not truly trusting in what Christ did for them. Maybe they will be those who will make up that vast group in white robes and will have been left on earth, because instead of trusting that the Lord rescued us from the coming wrath, they will have instead been anticipating going through God's wrath, not believing in His promise.

So the trials and tribulations that came at the hands of Catholicism for 1000 years and is happening at the hands of Islam today is just COMMON trials and tribulation?
If that is so, why them and not you and me. Are we that much more righteous than they.
I have pointed this out to you before, Tribulation and wrath are two different words with two different meanings but you refuse to see the difference.
You are the one that lacks understanding, not me.

Ahwatukee · Nov 8, 2016

Persuaded said:

The word "tribulation" is not exclusive to what man does. Tribulation can also include God's wrath. The coming seven years, that time of tribulation and great tribulation, is when God's wrath will be poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. That seven years of wrath is what is coming upon this earth and will be initiated when that 1st seal is opened, which will be the revealing of that antichrist. It is all apart of God's wrath, which is what the "What must take place later" is representing. It is you who does not understand that the coming tribulation is God's wrath. And you will find that out once the church has been removed. For everything that happens after that will take place within that last seven years. God will take up where he left off with Israel and will pour out his wrath upon the inhabitants of the earth and that to get them to repent.

The above statement is false! Scripture demonstrates that the wrath comes before Christ returns to the earth. This is what the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will accomplish, which take prior to Christ's return, which can be deduced from the following scripture:

"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

At the pouring out of the 6th bowl judgment, Jesus interjects the above, which demonstrates that He will have not returned to the earth prior to the 6th bowl being poured out. That kills your idea that the wrath comes after Christ returns. God's wrath is not restricted to just the day that he returns. But the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be the fulfillment of what the OT saints prophesied of and the apostles taught regarding the day of the Lord and the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole earth.

Persuaded · Nov 8, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

The word "tribulation" is not exclusive to what man does. Tribulation can also include God's wrath. The coming seven years, that time of tribulation and great tribulation, is when God's wrath will be poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. That seven years of wrath is what is coming upon this earth and will be initiated when that 1st seal is opened, which will be the revealing of that antichrist. It is all apart of God's wrath, which is what the "What must take place later" is representing. It is you who does not understand that the coming tribulation is God's wrath. And you will find that out once the church has been removed. For everything that happens after that will take place within that last seven years. God will take up where he left off with Israel and will pour out his wrath upon the inhabitants of the earth and that to get them to repent.

The above statement is false! Scripture demonstrates that the wrath comes before Christ returns to the earth. This is what the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will accomplish, which take prior to Christ's return, which can be deduced from the following scripture:

"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

At the pouring out of the 6th bowl judgment, Jesus interjects the above, which demonstrates that He will have not returned to the earth prior to the 6th bowl being poured out. That kills your idea that the wrath comes after Christ returns. God's wrath is not restricted to just the day that he returns. But the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be the fulfillment of what the OT saints prophesied of and the apostles taught regarding the day of the Lord and the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole earth.

Just a suggestion--------
Lay aside everything you have been taught and believe, and with an open mind and a lot of prayer, study the Word and see what is says.
Maybe you will then have a more clear understanding of the coming time of tribulation and the wrath of God.

Ahwatukee · Nov 8, 2016

Yes, that is correct. These are common trials and tribulation that have and are taking place at the hands of men with the power of darkness orchestrating in the background. While the wrath of God is a specific, unprecedented time of time of wrath which God will use to bring in the end of the age. Those listed above are not suffering that persecution as a result of God's wrath.

The answer is, because we live in the united states of America, which is one of the countries that has freedom of faith and those others mentioned are in countries who do not have that same freedom. However, our freedom of faith is and has been diminishing and will eventually be taken away, which is making way for that coming antichrist. Believers here in the US are still persecuted, but for the most part, not life threatening. But they will be.

I have studied end-time events for over 40 years and I see the big picture. Tribulation is not exclusive only to what comes at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. The coming tribulation is God's wrath. Stop pigeonholing the word tribulation to only mean one thing.

* Jesus said that he would build his church, which is still in process

* Once the church is complete, the Lord will appear and gather those who have been looking for his coming

* The antichrist will establish his seven year covenant with Israel, allowing them to build their temple

* The wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will continue throughout the entire seven years

* The abomination will be set up in the middle of the seven years

* After the end of that last 3 1/2 years, the Lord will return to the earth and end the age

* The beast and the false prophet will be captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire

* Satan will be bound in the Abyss during the thousand year reign of Christ

* Millennial period

Persuaded · Nov 8, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

Yes, that is correct. These are common trials and tribulation that have and are taking place at the hands of men with the power of darkness orchestrating in the background. While the wrath of God is a specific, unprecedented time of time of wrath which God will use to bring in the end of the age. Those listed above are not suffering that persecution as a result of God's wrat

The answer is, because we live in the united states of America, which is one of the countries that has freedom of faith and those others mentioned are in countries who do not have that same freedom. However, our freedom of faith is and has been diminishing and will eventually be taken away, which is making way for that coming antichrist. Believers here in the US are still persecuted, but for the most part, not life threatening. But they will be.

I have studied end-time events for over 40 years and I see the big picture. Tribulation is not exclusive only to what comes at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. The coming tribulation is God's wrath. Stop pigeonholing the word tribulation to only mean one thing.

* Jesus said that he would build his church, which is still in process

* Once the church is complete, the Lord will appear and gather those who have been looking for his coming

* The antichrist will establish his seven year covenant with Israel, allowing them to build their temple

* The wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will continue throughout the entire seven years

* The abomination will be set up in the middle of the seven years

* After the end of that last 3 1/2 years, the Lord will return to the earth and end the age

* The beast and the false prophet will be captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire

* Satan will be bound in the Abyss during the thousand year reign of Christ

* Millennial period

I agree with *1,6,7,8,9, but you are dead wrong on everything else you posted.
We will soon see.
Hope you are spiritually prepared for the coming TRIBULATION.

Bladerunner · Nov 8, 2016

Persuaded said:

I don't know where you get this holier than thou attitude but this thread would be a whole lot better off if you would drop it down a notch or two. Please!

First off, there has been numerous tries on this thread to convince you and others that the Bible directly states that the Holy Spirit (restrainer) is not on this earth when the Man of Sin is revealed.

Those who have taken Jesus as their savior, 'believe that he died on the cross, was buried and was resurrected according to scripture' have the Holy Spirit reside within them. When he leaves this earth, they do as well. Now if you do not believe that, then you got bigger problems to tackle than those that are on this thread!!!!!!

The "Church" as you state may not be so righteous but those who live in Jesus Christ are and apparently you are one of the people who either do not believe at all or believe only what their eyes will show them.

Have you not heard about the 20% rise in people being saved in the Middle East. Especially in IRAN, Miracles by Jesus Himself are converting hundreds to Christianity and Faith in Him instead of Islam!

It is also evident that a large number of miracles and conversions are happening in China as well as other parts of the world. Jesus is very busy it seems. I mean we are in the "END TIMES" according to scripture.

One other thing. When the 'ac' is revealed, he makes a covenant with Israel (start of the tribulations). Yes, he (God sanctioned but it will Man's war) makes war on the tribulation saints for 42 months, 3.5 years or 1260 days.

As far as 'running Israel into the wilderness'; When the 'ac' commits the Abomination Desolation in the 'Holy of Holys',(God's Chamber) in the temple, the Jewish people are instructed to flee to the south (toward Jordan) and the mountains that are located there. This will begin the last 42 months of the tribulations known as the Great Tribulations because here God is directly involved and all men including the antichrist will come under His wrath.

How about you,,, are you going to be in the Harpozo or are you going to wait and see? Don't wait too long. Rem, after the Harpozo, you will have ONLY two good choices. 1. Die in the name of Jesus Christ as a martyred saint, 2. Live through the entire 7 years believing in Jesus Christ like the 'believing' Israelites that fled Jerusalem at the middle of the tribulations have and become a 'living' tribulation saint.

There will be unbelievers (nations), that live through the tribulations and populated the earth during the 1000 year rein of Jesus Christ. Here they each will have 100 years to become believers or face a eternity in Hell.

It is your choice. Use your FREEWILL wisely.

Persuaded · Nov 8, 2016

Bladerunner said:

I don't know where you get this holier than thou attitude but this thread would be a whole lot better off if you would drop it down a notch or two. Please!

First off, there has been numerous tries on this thread to convince you and others that the Bible directly states that the Holy Spirit (restrainer) is not on this earth when the Man of Sin is revealed.

Those who have taken Jesus as their savior, 'believe that he died on the cross, was buried and was resurrected according to scripture' have the Holy Spirit reside within them. When he leaves this earth, they do as well. Now if you do not believe that, then you got bigger problems to tackle than those that are on this thread!!!!!!

The "Church" as you state may not be so righteous but those who live in Jesus Christ are and apparently you are one of the people who either do not believe at all or believe only what their eyes will show them.

Have you not heard about the 20% rise in people being saved in the Middle East. Especially in IRAN, Miracles by Jesus Himself are converting hundreds to Christianity and Faith in Him instead of Islam!

It is also evident that a large number of miracles and conversions are happening in China as well as other parts of the world. Jesus is very busy it seems. I mean we are in the "END TIMES" according to scripture.

One other thing. When the 'ac' is revealed, he makes a covenant with Israel (start of the tribulations). Yes, he (God sanctioned but it will Man's war) makes war on the tribulation saints for 42 months, 3.5 years or 1260 days.

As far as 'running Israel into the wilderness'; When the 'ac' commits the Abomination Desolation in the 'Holy of Holys',(God's Chamber) in the temple, the Jewish people are instructed to flee to the south (toward Jordan) and the mountains that are located there. This will begin the last 42 months of the tribulations known as the Great Tribulations because here God is directly involved and all men including the antichrist will come under His wrath.

How about you,,, are you going to be in the Harpozo or are you going to wait and see? Don't wait too long. Rem, after the Harpozo, you will have ONLY two good choices. 1. Die in the name of Jesus Christ as a martyred saint, 2. Live through the entire 7 years believing in Jesus Christ like the 'believing' Israelites that fled Jerusalem at the middle of the tribulations have and become a 'living' tribulation saint.

There will be unbelievers (nations), that live through the tribulations and populated the earth during the 1000 year rein of Jesus Christ. Here they each will have 100 years to become believers or face a eternity in Hell.

It is your choice. Use your FREEWILL wisely.

WOW! Anger! I thought this was a discussion forum!
So I disagree with you! Where did I say or imply I know it all or am more holy than anyone!
Simple question----------------
Who are these tribulation saints? Where do they come from?
Give me Scripture, not opinion.

Quasar92 · Nov 8, 2016

Persuaded said:

May I suggest you run a search engine on the term, "Day of the Lord," and learn what it encompasses in OT Scripture. To wit, Dan.9:27 is the day of the Lord, which is amplified by Jesus, in Mt.24:4-31, from the "middle of the week," on, which is the final 3.5 years of the tribulation, called the Great Tribulation. It is detailed at length in the Revelation of Jesus, from Rev.6 through 19, where the Great Tribulation consists of God's wrath at the very same time. An obvious fact Jesus made crystal clear, through John.

Quasar92

Quasar92 · Nov 8, 2016

Persuaded said:

Are you aware of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church teachings by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, you make liars of when you deny their teachings? Review the following Scriptural facts that fully support it:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church Beginning with Mt.24:31:
[/B] And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.

Lk.21:36:
"Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.

1 Thess.4:13-18:
The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures. In addition to the fact, Jesus told John, the resurrection of the tribulation martyrs/saints is the FIRST one, in Rev.20:4, seven years later.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Verse 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Verse 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thesd.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In vs 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.

Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!

The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf

Quasar92

Quasar92 · Nov 8, 2016

Scriptural proof for the pre-tribrapture of the Church

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.

Quasar92

Ahwatukee · Nov 9, 2016

Persuaded said:

Hello Persuaded,

The only way that I will be prepared is by continuing in faith and watching for the Bridegroom with that voice that sounds like a trumpet saying "come up here," Who will appear according to His promise to return and take us to those rooms that He prepared for us in the Father's house - John 14:1-3. He will come prior to the that time of tribulation which includes the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, the plagues that the two witnesses will be performing and all that the beast and the false prophet will be performing according to scripture.

Paul's words for us to comfort one another regarding living believers being changed and gathered to the Lord, would only be comforting if the gathering was to take place prior to the Lord's wrath, not after. It would also not be a blessed hope if the Lord was to gather living believers after his wrath.

Your on-going problem is your separation of tribulation from wrath. I continue to tell you that this word is not restricted to tribulation at the hands of the world, but can and does include God's wrath. You also do not understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath, for if you did, you would not be making the claims that you are.

In between where we are right now and the time that Christ returns to the earth to end the age, the wrath of God must take place. There is no division of tribulation of mankind and the wrath of God. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are initiated by the Lamb/Jesus, which means that He is the One who is responsible for the results. And since His wrath begins at the opening of the first seal, then the church cannot be here.

I am always ready for the trials and tribulation that the Lord said we would have as believers, but I do not need to be prepared for the seven years of tribulation, which is the wrath of God, and that because I trust in His word which says that believers are not appointed to suffer the wrath of God. You circumvent the truth by reinterpreting scripture, such as wrath and tribulation, as well as other scriptures.

I am confident that the Lord will gather the true church prior to that first seal being opened, which represents that antichrist.

abcdef · Nov 9, 2016

Quasar92 said:

The prophetic chronological order of end times events as outlined in the Bible are as follows:

1. The very next prophetic event to take place will be the rapture of the Church, consisting of everyone who believes in Jesus Christ as Lord, regardless of denomination, or no denomination at all, as taught by both Jesus as well as the apostle Paul. In Jn.14:2-4, 28; 1 Thes.4:13-18; 2 Thes.2:1-8; Rev.3:10 and 4:1-2. All those who died in Christ, to all those who are still alive at His coming in the clouds of the sky, for His Church, where we will all meet Jesus, from where He will take us to our Father in heaven, as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

2. The rapture of the Christian Church of Jesus Christ preceeds the revealing of the man of lawlessness/beast/antichrist, according to 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 7-8. Which then immediately sets off the seven years of tribulation, as recorded in Mt.24:4-31, Jesus amplification of Dan.9:27. Where the person who is all three of the "he's" in that verse, and the rider of the white horse in Rev.6:2, is revealed. All of whom are the antichrist. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70th Week of Dan.9:27 will begin.

3. The tribulation is revealed in Jer.30:4-7, referred to as "Jacob's Trouble," and in Dan.9:27, the 70th and final week of God's decree upon the destiny of Israel. In God's revelation to the prophet Daniel, through the angel Gabriel, the 70 "Weeks" [7 years each] of years He has decreed upon the entire destiny of Israel. From the end of their 70 year exile, through the coming seven year tribulation. The person who will set it of is the antichrist, the "he" who will establish a seven year covenant/agreement with them. Dan.9:27.

Jesus amplified and confirmed Daniel's 70th and final "Week," consisting of the abomination that causes desolation, in Mt.24:15 and 21, and in the counterparts of Mk.13 and in Lk.21.

4. The fig trees have sprouted leaves, we can see for ourselves and know that summer is near. Lk.21:29. Which began with the new nation of Israel, when it was reestablished on May 14, 1948.

5. The Christian Church of Jesus Christ is called up into heaven, symbolically illustrated by the apostle John in Rev.4:1-2, confirming 2 Thes.2:3 and 7-8. As prophecied in Jn.14:2-4, 28 and 1 Thes.4:16-17, while Israel and all non-believers will go through the seven year tribulation. The Church is seen again at their marriage of the Lamb [Jesus Christ] to His Bride [The Church] in heaven, recorded in Rev.19:7-9, while the tribulation is taking place on earth.

6. Jesus will return, seven ears later, with His Church, following Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, which stands for the righteous acts of the saints [Verse 8 NIV]. In His Second Coming to the earth, with His angels, in His armies from heaven, in Zech.14:4-5, Mt.24:31, Jude 14, and Rev.19:14.

7. Jesus will fight the battle of Armageddon, with His armies from heaven and end it, recorded in Rev.19:11-21. And save the remnant of Israel, who then recognize Him as their Messiah, recorded in Zech.12:10, and "all Israel will be saved," recorded in Rom.11:26...

8. The antichrist and the false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire, and the armies of the ten horns [nations] are destroyed. Rev19:17-21. Jesus prophecy in Jn.10:16 will then be fulfilled, when there will be one fold [Israel and His Church] and one Shepherd. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70 Weeks prophecy in Dan.9:27 will end.
9..Satan is caught and thrown into the Abyss for the same 1,000 years that Jesus will reign, in His kingdom here on the earth. Rev.20:6, confirming Mt.6:9-13; Zech.6:12-13, described in Ez.40-47; Acts 1:6; 2:29-30 and 15:16.

10. The first resurrection takes place which consists of all those brought to the Lord during the tribulation by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists. They will be martyred during the tribulation, by the two beasts, the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them. Those who are brought to Christ by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists, in the absence of the departed Church during the tribulation, do not belong to the Christian Church [who will be raptured before the seven year tribulation begins, as addressed above]. They will be made priests of God and of Christ, and rule with Him for 1,000 years, after their resurrection, according to Rev.20:4 and 6. They will be beheaded and pay with their lives for their testimony of Jesus, by the two beasts, the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them..

11. The Millennial Kingdom of Christ will consist of the one body of Christ, His Church, all those who survived the tribulation, besides the resurrected martyrs, and the remnant of Israel. In numbers alone, from an estimated original 7 billion people, there will only be 2.3 billion remaining , of those who had to go through the tribulation, recorded in Zech.13:8. Life expectancy will be greatly increased. Isa.65:20 and 11:6-9.

12. Jesus 1,000 year kingdom will begin at this point, according to Rev.20:6, here on the earth, on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, confirming Acts 1:6; 2:29-30 and 15:16. At the same time the 1,000 years Satan will be in the Abyss, according to Rev.20:1-3. Jesus prophecy in Jn.10:16 will then be fulfilled, when there will be one fold, Israel and the Church, with one Shepherd. When Jesus Millennial kingdom has ended, 1,000 years later, at the Great White Throne judgment, recorded in Rev.20:11-15. Satan will be released and go out to deceive the people and nations again in his last rebellion against God and gather a huge army who come against God's people, surrounding Jerusalem. But God will send fire and sulfur down from heaven, as He did at Sodom and Gomorrah, destroying them all, and throwing Satan into the lake of fire, forever, in Rev.20:7-10.

13. The second resurrection takes place according to Rev.20:5, that consists of all those who will be saved during the Millennial reign of Jesus here on the earth, as well as the Godless and wicked, at the Great White Throne Judgment, set up to judge them, right here on earth. The sea, death and Hades all give up their dead and will then be thrown into the lake of fire. Meaning, that all who were in the 'temporal holding tanks' of Sheol, Hades and Hell will be removed to face judgment, along with death itself, disposed of forever. For all those who participate in the second resurrection, if their name is not found in the book of life, will be thrown into the lake of fire forever. Rev.20:11-15, and Dan.12:2 and Mt.25:46 will be fulfilled.

14. The old heaven and earth will pass away, recorded in Rev.21:1 [Destroyed by fire according to 2 Pet.3:7] and God will provide an all new heaven and earth, and the new eternal city of Jerusalem will descend from heaven, 1,500 miles long and as wide as it is long and as high as it is wide, Rev.21:1-16.

15. The rest of chapters 21 and 22 allude to a description of the coming eternal city and life of all believers who will be with the Lord forever.

Quasar92

Hi Quasar92,

Thank you for the explanation of your viewpoint.

Sorry it took so long to respond, I had some internet signal problems, hopefully they are fixed.

The scripture in 1 Cor 15:23-28, shows only 2 resurrections.

How can you teach 4 or more?

It shows that after Jesus comes, Then comes the end when Jesus delivers the kingdom up to the Father for the wedding, after death is destroyed.

How is it that after Jesus comes, you say that it is not the end?

popeye · Nov 9, 2016

Persuaded said:

You guys constantly paint yourselves as "ready" for tribulation.

Read mat 24,and 25.

,,,as it was in the days of lot.
....as it was in the days of noah.

.....those that were READY went into the bride chamber with the groom.....but the foolish (unready) STAYED BEHIND.

so the question is,are you ready for the groom?

And BTW,there is no "readiness" for beheading by bucking the pretrib rapture. I mean what are you going to say? You sure won't have "I told you so" to fall back on. IOW,if you can say "kill me,but I ain't taking that mark" you are "ready" for beheading.

That is the GT's "tribulation" and it happens early on in the GT.

When it says "every man,woman and child refusing the mark,both bond and free,is killed..."

What do you "endure to the end" adherents think in your mind? Is it just "bible mistakes" or what?

Quasar92 · Nov 9, 2016

abcdef said:

Hi abcdef,

Where do you see more than two resurrections in the chronology of end times events that I posted? In all of my years, I have never made any claim there will be more than two general resurrections in the Bible.

Quasar92

abcdef · Nov 9, 2016

Quasar92 said:

Is this what you are saying?

1. First resurrection....Jesus

2. 2nd resurrection......Begin 7 yrs

3. 3rd resurrection......End 7, begin 1000

4. 4th resurrection......End 1000

4 Resurrections?

-------

1 Cor 15:23-28, says that the 1st resurrection is Jesus,

Then the 2nd resurrection is at His coming,

Then comes the end,

But you say that it is not the end, yes/no?

Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

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