what has been fulfilled?
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God gave the land to Abraham.
He has title to it by God.
The Israelites were taken away from the land because of sin.
God's punishment for rejecting the Pentecost Kingdom was the destruction of Jerusalem.
This "Times of the Gentiles" has a beginning and an end.
When the ToG's is over Israel would be restored to Jerusalem.
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The people of Israel today are not the ones to whom the promises were made.
But they are the beneficiaries of those promises, by God's grace.
Think very intently about what these verses are saying.
God told Moses that no one could see His face and live.
But in these verses we are told that the temple of God in heaven is opened.
And that we can see the Ark there, in God's temple.
Jesus is our Ark.
When we see Him we shall be like Him.
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Compare this with R 15:5 & 8.
V 8, "....; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled."
When the 7th plague is finished, and this world is over, men will enter the temple of God.
It is shown being opened at the 7th/last trumpet.
Well, there are lots of things being said here, many of which require careful consideration.
1) What was the actual Title Deed?
2) Did God revoke that Title Deed at any point?
3) Where does it say that after the Times of The Gentiles that DNA Israelites would be restored to Jerusalem?
4) How does anyone prove they are directly descended from the Patriarchs?
5) Who then are the people of Israel today?
6) What promises?
7) In what way are they accidental beneficiaries?
1) What was the actual Title Deed?
2) Did God revoke that Title Deed at any point?
3) Where does it say that after the Times of The Gentiles that DNA Israelites would be restored to Jerusalem?
4) How does anyone prove they are directly descended from the Patriarchs?
5) Who then are the people of Israel today?
6) What promises?
7) In what way are they accidental beneficiaries?
A
1) Noah is a descendent of Abraham
2) everyone but Noah and His descendents were killed in the flood, so everyone left alive is a descendent of Abraham.
3) the promise was made to Abraham Seed, not seeds. The promise was made to Jesus and all who call upon His name...not to earthly Jerusalem, who is Hagar with her bondchildren.
Galatians 3:16 ►
New International Version
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.
2) everyone but Noah and His descendents were killed in the flood, so everyone left alive is a descendent of Abraham.
3) the promise was made to Abraham Seed, not seeds. The promise was made to Jesus and all who call upon His name...not to earthly Jerusalem, who is Hagar with her bondchildren.
Galatians 3:16 ►
New International Version
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.
The only unconditional promise that God gave Abraham in regards to the Land of Israel was:
Genesis 13:15 for all the land that you see I will give to you and to your offspring forever
What could Abraham see from his vantage point between Bethel and Ai?
Who are his offspring?
What is 'forever' - "ad ow'lam"?
His offspring were his several children, including i) All the tribes of Israel, ii) All the tribes of Ishmael
"Ad Ow'lam" can simply mean for a long time.
Before you start talking about a Land Title of the Land of Israel, you need to tidy up what all the above pertain to and mean.
Any other agreements about the land were entirely conditional, and therefore of no relevance to the discussion.
Genesis 13:15 for all the land that you see I will give to you and to your offspring forever
What could Abraham see from his vantage point between Bethel and Ai?
Who are his offspring?
What is 'forever' - "ad ow'lam"?
His offspring were his several children, including i) All the tribes of Israel, ii) All the tribes of Ishmael
"Ad Ow'lam" can simply mean for a long time.
Before you start talking about a Land Title of the Land of Israel, you need to tidy up what all the above pertain to and mean.
Any other agreements about the land were entirely conditional, and therefore of no relevance to the discussion.
I'm pretty sure that this too was conditional.
They were hauled away to Babylon 586 BC, and then to "all nations" Lk 21:20-24, 24, in 70 AD.
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Is this promise still in force today?
Is Israel today a result of this promise?
Is this promise, of the "material" land, given to the flesh descendants, still apply to this present day?
Is this promise of the material land, given to his spiritual descendants? That is, Physical Jerusalem, given to the Pentecost Kingdom?
Israel?
Agree
Yes, the occupation of the material land was conditional on their obedience and the grace of God.
They were hauled away to Babylon 586 BC, and then to "all nations" Lk 21:20-24, 24, in 70 AD.
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Is this promise still in force today?
Is Israel today a result of this promise?
Is this promise, of the "material" land, given to the flesh descendants, still apply to this present day?
Is this promise of the material land, given to his spiritual descendants? That is, Physical Jerusalem, given to the Pentecost Kingdom?
Israel?
Agree
Yes, the occupation of the material land was conditional on their obedience and the grace of God.
Yes, I think you are right, he could see Israel, and yes, they were hauled off in 586BC, although I think there was still a Jewish King left (I think there were two Jewish Kings at that time, one in Babylon, one in Judah).
I think the thing that probably really matters here is the translation and meaning of "ad ow'lam"
I have heard it said that it means just an age, so I am really parroting that thought, but actually that does stand up to scrutiny.
17. Translations of Owlam, Aion, and Aionios
If it is just a time-limited promise, then that is it.
I personally see no claim whatsoever to the land.
I think the thing that probably really matters here is the translation and meaning of "ad ow'lam"
I have heard it said that it means just an age, so I am really parroting that thought, but actually that does stand up to scrutiny.
17. Translations of Owlam, Aion, and Aionios
If it is just a time-limited promise, then that is it.
I personally see no claim whatsoever to the land.
We as individuals, probably cannot confirm the validity of their claims, as pertaining to our modern world.
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But how is it that this nation called Israel exists?
Can any nation exist, against the will of God?
If a nation cannot exist, against the will of God, then Israel today must exist by the will of God.
If Israel exists by the will of God, then will we say that the will of God is not involved?
That is, we might say that, this nation of Israel is here by "chance", or by a random series of events that happened, and that are without meaning.
But we as Christians know that these events, such as kings and nations, are controlled by the hand of God.
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So the question is not about their claims to ancient lands,
But what role does this nation called Israel play in the prophetic time line?
Things really came together for me when I decided that according to 1Cor15:23-28,23-24, there are only 2 resurrections and then comes the end.
The first resurrection was Jesus and all of the OT saints, They are seen in heaven with Jesus in (approx) 96 AD. by John.
The coming of Jesus at the 2nd resurrection has yet to take place.
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So where in Rev do we see examples of the 2nd resurrection and coming of Jesus?
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2 witnesses
7th/last trumpet
7th vial/plague
The fire from heaven R 20
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Putting all these examples together gives us a picture of the situation just before the resurrection.
Good day abcedf (John),
There has been no other resurrection in that immortal and glorified body other Jesus. The resurrection of the OT saints has not taken place yet. I am assuming that regarding those that "are seen in heaven with Jesus" that you are referring to Rev.7:9-17, which, for one, are identified as those from every tribe, people, language and nation, Gentiles. And two, the elder makes clear that these are saints who will have come out of the great tribulation, which is still future.
Jesus was the first fruits of the first resurrection and the church is next. After that, the male child, which is a collective name for the 144,000, who will be snatched up to God and his throne. The two witnesses will also be resurrected at the middle of that last seven years. And then after Christ returns to the earth to end the age, those who will have died in the great tribulation will be resurrected, as recorded in Rev.20:4-6. These resurrections are all apart of the first resurrection. The resurrection which takes place at the end of the thousand years, is not apart of the first resurrection, but will be of the unrighteous dead throughout all of history.
There is no resurrection at the 7th trumpet, for that is a plague of wrath and there is no mention of a resurrection anywhere in the context. You are only misapplying the 7th trumpet as a resurrection because scripture states that the dead will be raised and the living will be changed at the last trumpet. Your error is interpreting the 7th trumpet as being synonymous with the "last trumpet" and that only because they both have the words "trumpet" in them. The trumpet judgments are apart of God's wrath and have nothing to do with the resurrection.
The other problem by your Implying that the 7th trumpet as being where the resurrection of the church takes place is that, you would have put the church through the majority of God's wrath, which the church is not appointed to suffer. In fact, the 7th trumpet is the last of the three woes, which are against the inhabitants of the earth.
No one has been resurrected into those immortal and glorified bodies yet except for Jesus.
There has been no other resurrection in that immortal and glorified body other Jesus. The resurrection of the OT saints has not taken place yet. I am assuming that regarding those that "are seen in heaven with Jesus" that you are referring to Rev.7:9-17, which, for one, are identified as those from every tribe, people, language and nation, Gentiles. And two, the elder makes clear that these are saints who will have come out of the great tribulation, which is still future.
Jesus was the first fruits of the first resurrection and the church is next. After that, the male child, which is a collective name for the 144,000, who will be snatched up to God and his throne. The two witnesses will also be resurrected at the middle of that last seven years. And then after Christ returns to the earth to end the age, those who will have died in the great tribulation will be resurrected, as recorded in Rev.20:4-6. These resurrections are all apart of the first resurrection. The resurrection which takes place at the end of the thousand years, is not apart of the first resurrection, but will be of the unrighteous dead throughout all of history.
There is no resurrection at the 7th trumpet, for that is a plague of wrath and there is no mention of a resurrection anywhere in the context. You are only misapplying the 7th trumpet as a resurrection because scripture states that the dead will be raised and the living will be changed at the last trumpet. Your error is interpreting the 7th trumpet as being synonymous with the "last trumpet" and that only because they both have the words "trumpet" in them. The trumpet judgments are apart of God's wrath and have nothing to do with the resurrection.
The other problem by your Implying that the 7th trumpet as being where the resurrection of the church takes place is that, you would have put the church through the majority of God's wrath, which the church is not appointed to suffer. In fact, the 7th trumpet is the last of the three woes, which are against the inhabitants of the earth.
No one has been resurrected into those immortal and glorified bodies yet except for Jesus.