Word of Faith - a Look at what the Bible says!

[trofimus]

sorry prove what the thorn was

Why? Its the same like proving what was the disease Trofimus had in Miletus that Paul cannot "heal" or what problems exactly medically Timotheus had with his stomach.

No such information will change the fact they were not healed and that God said to Paul - I will leave you in this state, because that is how my power can be seen - in your weakness.

 

[LaurenTM]

positive confession, to me, is like teaching my parrot to talk.

But, to know that you know that you know that God is going to do what He promised? Faith. It comes with experience of His faithfulness.

faith is in God, not some formula that guarantees some sort of return on the investment

I do believe words have import...but as described by scripture

many verses are terribly taken out of context in order for the WOF doctrine to be preached...and they have a penchant for ignoring the obvious...much of what they say will happen does not happen and sometimes nothing happens

I think that is called false prophecy

 

[jenniferand2]

So according to the wof sick people are not holy enough is that what your getting at is that sick people are not good enough Christians? then if that is the case why are little babies born sick and die? they are not even old enough to be good enough Christians.....

 

[nowyouseem033]

ok so if even half are phyisical healing, many with Christ(who is still active through us His body) and it is not the new kingdom but the life in Christ! if He is still Alive and works through us, what has changed healing?

Healing hasnt changed. The only thing that should change is your heart of stone into a heart of flesh by Gods grace. Because thats the ONLY thing that matters. My healing is still coming... and yours is still coming. On that day when we rise from the grave with new incorruptible bodies and glorified in our humanity we will be healed from all the symptoms of sin and death. Until that time i am still prone to sin, still break my bones and my bones will be more and more frail, my eye sight will dim and my energy will fade . Will God heal me now? Maybe, but even if he did i still will die.

 

[LaurenTM]

with regards to healing and the WOF declaration it is God's will for everyone to be healed

the following is taken from the op...which has been kicked out of the way here and apparently forgotten


If healing is supported by both the Bible and theology and praying in faith for the gracious healing of the sick, then where is the problem? What is the "disease" nature of the "gospel" of total health for Christians?

There are basically some biblical and theological distortions which insist:

1. that God wills perfect health and complete healing for every believer

2. that God has obligated Himself to heal every sickness for those who have faith (unless the sickness is a result of breaking God's "health" laws.)

Integral to this theology is the insistence that faith can "claim" such healing from God, and that any failure to be healed is not the fault of God, but of the one who has not had enough faith. Very often "claiming" healing means to "confess" it as done, even though the symptoms persists.

So the answer to why people are not healed, who have faith, has to lie not in the actual words of the Bible or God himself, but in the way the Bible is being interpreted. As with many half-truths, the "gospel" of perfect health sees to base itself on Scripture. However, the evangelists interpretation is faulty for the following reasons:

1. some poor, or flat-out wrong interpretations of key texts
2. some selective use of texts,
3. a failure to have a wholistic biblical view of things, and especially a failure to understand the essential theological framework of the New Testament writers.

As a result, they tend to repeat the Corinthian error and are unable to hear Paul's answers in 1 and 2 Corinthians as over and against themselves, although these evangelists are unwitting descendants of the false apostles of 2 Cor. 10-13!

"So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong." 2 Cor. 12:7-10

 

[wanderer6059]

Why? Its the same like proving what was the disease Trofimus had in Miletus that Paul cannot "heal" or what problems exactly medically Timotheus had with his stomach.

No such information will change the fact they were not healed and that God said to Paul - I will leave you in this state, because that is how my power can be seen - in your weakness.

tim was told to use wine as a medical remedy= healing, and it depends alot, was paul calling out against the wounds from his beating or an illness, or something else? it gives context to biblical healing

 

[CharlieGrown]

Healing hasnt changed. The only thing that should change is your heart of stone into a heart of flesh by Gods grace. Because thats the ONLY thing that matters. My healing is still coming... and yours is still coming. On that day when we rise from the grave with new incorruptible bodies and glorified in our humanity we will be healed from all the symptoms of sin and death. Until that time i am still prone to sin, still break my bones and my bones will be more and more frail, my eye sight will dim and my energy will fade . Will God heal me now? Maybe, but even if he did i still will die.

and what's this mean?
Psalm 116:15 Precious in the sight of the LORD Is the death of His godly ones.

 

[wanderer6059]

So according to the wof sick people are not holy enough is that what your getting at is that sick people are not good enough Christians? then if that is the case why are little babies born sick and die? they are not even old enough to be good enough Christians.....

no sickness is part of the fallen world sister, and it is used to point us to God. i have seen the worst this world will bring, but i know God heals us in many ways, i have seen in from the simple doctors visit to people stepping out of the wheel chair, sad thing is people don't see the doctors visit as the greatest act of healing God ever did.

 

[wanderer6059]

Healing hasnt changed. The only thing that should change is your heart of stone into a heart of flesh by Gods grace. Because thats the ONLY thing that matters. My healing is still coming... and yours is still coming. On that day when we rise from the grave with new incorruptible bodies and glorified in our humanity we will be healed from all the symptoms of sin and death. Until that time i am still prone to sin, still break my bones and my bones will be more and more frail, my eye sight will dim and my energy will fade . Will God heal me now? Maybe, but even if he did i still will die.

amen, but physical real world healing happened in the Gospels and Acts, thousands heal of there infirmity, why is it different now?

 

[trofimus]

tim was told to use wine as a medical remedy= healing, and it depends alot, was paul calling out against the wounds from his beating or an illness, or something else? it gives context to biblical healing

1. You must read the Bible and see that the weakness is a part of Christian life.

"That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong." 2Cor 12:10

2. You must also see that not everybody was healed in the Bible. And not because of the lack of faith.

3. You must also see that for example Epafroditus was ill/got better but Paul does not describe it like some kind of "automatical power every Christian has", but like a mercy of God

If you simply add 1 + 1 together and accept all the Scripture, you cannot believe in the WoF teaching.

"But I think it is necessary to send back to you Epaphroditus, my brother...For he longs for all of you and is distressed because you heard he was ill.
Indeed he was ill, and almost died. But God had mercy on him, and not on him only but also on me, to spare me sorrow upon sorrow."
Php 2:25

 

[nowyouseem033]

amen, but physical real world healing happened in the Gospels and Acts, thousands heal of there infirmity, why is it different now?

I would say alot is different now than in acts but putting that aside the question is wrong. Its for what purpose were the healings done for? Answer: To authenticate those who did the healings (i.e Paul, Peter etc) as men sent from God. How do i know that Peter is sent from God? They didnt have a bible then as it was still being written. The answer is that healings, signs and wonders would follow those who were sent from God. So because they knew they were from God through the miracles they did they now could trust the message they preached, which is the gospel.

Healing happens today, yes, but it is not something promised or guarnteed to us here and now something WoF CLEARLY TEACH!!!!! and i mean CLEARLY!!!!!

 

[wanderer6059]

I would say alot is different now than in acts but putting that aside the question is wrong. Its for what purpose were the healings done for? Answer: To authenticate those who did the healings (i.e Paul, Peter etc) as men sent from God. How do i know that Peter is sent from God? They didnt have a bible then as it was still being written. The answer is that healings, signs and wonders would follow those who were sent from God. So because they knew they were from God through the miracles they did they now could trust the message they preached, which is the gospel.

Healing happens today, yes, but it is not something promised or guarnteed to us here and now something WoF CLEARLY TEACH!!!!! and i mean CLEARLY!!!!!

so you are a cessationist

 

[wanderer6059]

1. You must read the Bible and see that the weakness is a part of Christian life.

"That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong." 2Cor 12:10

2. You must also see that not everybody was healed in the Bible. And not because of the lack of faith.

3. You must also see that for example Epafroditus was ill/got better but Paul does not describe it like some kind of "automatical power every Christian has", but like a mercy of God

If you simply add 1 + 1 together and accept all the Scripture, you cannot believe in the WoF teaching.

"But I think it is necessary to send back to you Epaphroditus, my brother...For he longs for all of you and is distressed because you heard he was ill.
Indeed he was ill, and almost died. But God had mercy on him, and not on him only but also on me, to spare me sorrow upon sorrow."
Php 2:25

.......3, have you looked at my post, i have said healing is not just supernatural, but the fact that we heal naturally is a miracle in its own right, natural healing is the best example of Gods will to heal all, the instant part is few and far between and is just for the edification of God, that is not the true miracle of healing

 

[Desertsrose]

where does it say in scripture that God send sickness....

• Exodus 4:6, "The LORD furthermore said to him, 'Now put your hand into your bosom.' So he put his hand into his bosom, and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous like snow."
• Exodus 4:11, "And the Lord said to him, 'Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?'"
• Numbers 12: 9-10, "So the anger of the LORD burned against them and He departed. 10 But when the cloud had withdrawn from over the tent, behold, Miriam was leprous, as white as snow. As Aaron turned toward Miriam, behold, she was leprous."

 

[nowyouseem033]

so you are a cessationist

Yes, which means i believe in healing, just like most Christians, but not the GIFT of healing.

I do not believe healing is guarenteed or promised to us here and now. To think you can quote "get your healing today" or claim your healing now is rubbish and a quick gimmick that distracts from the gospel and puts emphasis on the eternal miracles rather than the internal miracle of salvation.

 

[jenniferand2]

suffering For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

 

[trofimus]

.......3, have you looked at my post, i have said healing is not just supernatural, but the fact that we heal naturally is a miracle in its own right, natural healing is the best example of Gods will to heal all, the instant part is few and far between and is just for the edification of God, that is not the true miracle of healing

I think you want to advocate for the teaching of the Word of Faith.

Do you not believe in the "right" of every Christian to be healthy and wealthy? If you do, do not yield aside anytime Bible contradicts that.

Of course body or doctors can heal naturally... or not, people die all the time around us. So stick to the topic, please.

 

[jenniferand2]

last for now because i need to eat but the bible says to not add or remove things from the word of God the word is his word
16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. 18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

 

[jenniferand2]

the bible is your tool you need to relate to scripture and read the word of God on topics. The bible teaches us ways to heal the mind body and soul. it does not mean that we are owed it God promised it or anything else it means if we use the bible as our tool to heal these things body mind and soul and we follow Gods word not someones distorted version of Gods word. but his actual words and we follow his words accordingly and we have accepted Jesus Christ as our savior we will be on Gods good side but that even still does not 100 percent make it so we get into heaven....

 

[Zmouth]

Well, I am always very wary of someone distorting of a snippet of KJV. So, I did have to look this one up.

What it says in Greek is: (Posting this for my own reference, not to parade the Greek out!)

"καὶ ἐν ἐκείνῃ τῇ ἡμέρᾳ ἐμὲ οὐκ ἐρωτήσετε οὐδέν· ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ἄν τι αἰτήσητε τὸν πατέρα δώσει ὑμῖν ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί μου." John 16:23

In English the passage in context:

"When a woman is in labor she has pain because her time has come. But when she has given birth to a child, she no longer remembers the suffering because of the joy that a person has been born into the world. 22 So you also have sorrow now. But I will see you again. Your hearts will rejoice, and no one will rob you of your joy. 23 In that day you will not ask Me anything.“I assure you: Anything you ask the Father in My name, He will give you." John 16:21-23 HCSB

"1 When a woman is giving birth, she has sorrow because her hour has come, but when she has delivered the baby, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world. 22 So also you have sorrow now, but I will see you again, and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you. 23 In that day you will ask nothing of me. Truly, truly, I say to you, whatever you ask of the Father in my name, he will give it to you." John 16:21-23 ESV

First, it is important not to put just the whole verse, but the context. Otherwise, you will end up with a false doctrine. Seven words is NEVER enough to make sound doctrine. Context counts - not just the verses around it, but the entire book of John.

The book of John is an amazing treatise on Jesus Christ, whom John shows to be God. It is not really about what I can name and claim! Seriously! I am just reading in John in my daily read through the Bible, it exults in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who died on the cross for our sins. Over and over, it shows how Jesus is God.

But more specifically, what was Jesus talking about in this passage? Some obscure interpretation of his Words 21 centuries in the future? Something that we can use today, to get whatever we want? Not really. He was talking about a parable of a woman giving birth, with two key words - grief and joy. A parable is a teaching Jesus used to obscure what he was saying to the masses, but then he would explain it to his disciples.

So, when a woman gives birth, she has grief, or sorrow because her hour has come. I can testify to that portion of the Scripture. But, when the child is born, she doesn't even remember her anguish, for she is filled with joy that a human being was born into the world. I totally understand this, having experienced it four joyful times.

Although childbirth was a common eschatological metaphor for "distress" or "tribulation" prior to the Day of the Lord, this probably is just any generic woman giving birth, not an allegorical figure representing Israel or Jerusalem or the people of God.

Yet the parable does involve a comparison between her experience and those of the disciples. The comparison is a simple one - there is grief and then there is joy! But the joy far outweighs the grief.

"For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us." Romans 8:18

"For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison," 2 Cor. 4:17

The parable comes as a surprise in one respect, in that the reason for the woman's overwhelming joy is that "a human being" has been born into the world. To be born "into the world" is evidently a good thing, even in the face of all that has been said earlier about the world hating the disciples (John 15:18-25) and rejoicing at their grief. (vs 20)

Jesus immediately makes the application explicit: "And so you have grief now, but I will see you again, and your heart will rejoice and no one takes away your joy from you." (vs. 22).

The promise "I will see you again." vs 22, also recalls Jesus terminology earlier answering the disciples "I am coming back" (14:3) and "I am coming to you" (14:28). In fact, John 14, 15 and 16 are intricately tied to Jesus explaining he has to go, but he will send the Holy Spirit when he leaves for heaven.

Jesus' explanation of the parable in vs 21 continues in vv 22-23, the verse in question which was posted out of context.

Please note, this explanation "you will ask me for nothing" and then "whatever you ask of the Father in my name, he will give it to you." vs 23. When? In that day! Now this is the crux of the meaning of John 16:23.

Jesus says the disciple will ask no questions, because they have no need to ask. "In that day" they will understand what they do not understand now. Their questions will have been answered. The emphatic "me" ἐμὲ simply identifies Jesus as the Source of truth, who will reveal all things freely without being questioned.

But another type of "asking" is necessary, even commanded! While the disciples will have no more need to ask questions they will always need to "ask" in prayer. Without hesitation Jesus continues with, "Truly, truly I say to you, whatever you ask of the Father in my name he will give it to you."

"Joy" (v22) rests on knowledge, to be sure, but the transition from grief to joy is accomplished only through prayer.

Prayer "in his name" will be answered because it is the prayer of those who know him, and do not have to be told what he would want. The promise of answered prayer is "for that day," when Jesus will see them again, and make himself known to them. Jesus confirms that the transition from "grief" to "joy" is not limited to an eschatological moment, whether the resurrection of Jesus or his final coming, but it is something that happens again and again, above all through the prayers of those who grieve.

So is this passage about asking for whatever we want in Jesus name, and the Father being obligated to give it? Absolutely not! That is a egregious reading of this passage, especially in light of the teachings of Jesus in chapters 14-16. It is about Jesus, and how when we know him, we can come to him, asking in prayer for the things we know he wants us to ask for. Not complete health or great wealth, but a deep and joyous relationship with Jesus through the Holy Spirit, whom Jesus talks about coming in the opening verses of chapter 16.

Finally, I doubt very much Jesus was telling his disciples to name it and claim it, when he finishes chapter with this verse.

“I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.” John 16:33

He knows the disciples are going to go through some very trying times, and that they need to keep focused on Christ, to find peace when the real trials and tribulations come.

Of course, if you disagree, please feel free to discuss the verse in context, and state exactly your thoughts about what that passage means. I am sure that by looking in context, instead of this truncated view of partial verses ripped out of context, you will gain a much greater understanding of where Jesus is going in John 16

.

Wow, a bountiful scent of Conde, with just balance of air of Gance that illuminates the lights with a glow of darkness called Pompous that I have to ask you if got your get great understanding of where Jesus is going in John then you should know who was in John before Jesus came into the world.

Hopefully before the 1,000 years are gone, and they do go like yesterday's watch, you will hear what God sees in His Word.