Word of Faith - a Look at what the Bible says!

[Cee]

So God is okay with people getting healed through doctors, but not through prayer?

If this is true today, why does Scripture say the prayer of faith WILL heal the sick?

James 5:15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

Notice James doesn't say prayer will save the one who is sick, but prayer of faith. What's the difference?

It seems people celebrate healing, but not supernatural healing. Yet, they celebrate Jesus supernaturally healing people. It's quite confusing to me.

My question is simple: does Scripture indicate that faith is needed to receive from God?

 

[jenniferand2]

faith is in God, not some formula that guarantees some sort of return on the investment

I do believe words have import...but as described by scripture

many verses are terribly taken out of context in order for the WOF doctrine to be preached...and they have a penchant for ignoring the obvious...much of what they say will happen does not happen and sometimes nothing happens

I think that is called false prophecy

that brings me to a good point God does not reward people for anything not even being faithful all he gives to us is to be considered a gift. So therefore this entire wof thing is a shamble because from what i gather God is supposed to do this and promises that etc...... WRONG God gifts people with health, wellness, salvation......etc......

 

[jenniferand2]

So God is okay with people getting healed through doctors, but not through prayer?

If this is true today, why does Scripture say the prayer of faith WILL heal the sick?

James 5:15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

Notice James doesn't say prayer will save the one who is sick, but prayer of faith. What's the difference?

It seems people celebrate healing, but not supernatural healing. Yet, they celebrate Jesus supernaturally healing people. It's quite confusing to me.

My question is simple: does Scripture indicate that faith is needed to receive from God?

i would have to say not always because God gave everyone the gift of his Son and not everyone has faith in that being true...

Now concerning spiritual [gifts], brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ.

 

[Angela53510]

James says even if we ask for wisdom without faith we won't receive it. So are you proposing that faith has nothing to do with receiving from God?

Scripture teaches God's name is the one who heals not the one who makes us sick. If God made us sick, why would we go to doctors? Is it any wonder people don't get healed when they are taught God made them sick so they can learn a lesson?

I thought I dealt with this in the OP??

Integral to this theology is the insistence that faith can "claim" such healing from God, and that any failure to be healed is not the fault of God, but of the one who has not had enough faith. Very often "claiming" healing means to "confess" it as done, even though the symptoms persists.

So the answer to why people are not healed, who have faith, has to lie not in the actual words of the Bible or God himself, but in the way the Bible is being interpreted. As with many half-truths, the "gospel" of perfect health sees to base itself on Scripture.

Then I continue with a LOT of Bible verses!


However, as I have said repeatedly, this thread is NOT for people who want to post their personal opinions. I would be happy to discuss any Bible verses you have - (not just general references to certain books).

That is how I want this thread to go - Bible verses - post to support or refute. There was another thread going, which was opinion, although the OP implied that was not at all where he wanted to go.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/144752-ask-word-faith-wof.html

PS My OP may be long, but this is a complex issue. If people chose not to read it, and it is obvious (not saying this specifically to you, Cee), then I am not going to interact with it. My goal is to get people to post about the BIBLE in the Bible Discussion Forum. There are plenty of other forums here for people to talk about opinions, unsupported by the Bible verses.

 

[wanderer6059]

Yes, which means i believe in healing, just like most Christians, but not the GIFT of healing.

I do not believe healing is guarenteed or promised to us here and now. To think you can quote "get your healing today" or claim your healing now is rubbish and a quick gimmick that distracts from the gospel and puts emphasis on the eternal miracles rather than the internal miracle of salvation.

when did the gift stop? why did it stop? and what scripture do you use to support it.

 

[wanderer6059]

I think you want to advocate for the teaching of the Word of Faith.

Do you not believe in the "right" of every Christian to be healthy and wealthy? If you do, do not yield aside anytime Bible contradicts that.

Of course body or doctors can heal naturally... or not, people die all the time around us. So stick to the topic, please.

i believe, God wants me to be healthy, and to have my needs met and that is my right as a son of the most high.

i think this is accomplished by in in both the spiritual and natural. i believe it is my responsibility to take care of this body God gave me, to help it stay healthy, i believe all healing is of God, and without His word we wouldn't even have modern medicine, i believe when i get a cut, and watch it heal over a week or two that is a miracle in its self. i believe not healing can happen without God, i believe i can ask for His supernatural add in the healing possess, and i do believe in the corporate faith setting of supernatural healing in line with the Gospel and the book of acts, the gift of healing, i have seen it. thats what i believe.

 

[bluto]

Hagin never said it was meant to be immediate and that healing comes through doctors too.

Well wanderer how come wof teaches that every single person that came to Jesus Christ was healed immediately? Can you give me an example of Jesus healing someone that was "NOT" immediately? And like I said you keep coming up with all these excuses to protect wof teachings that are mostly unbiblical. Btw, how long have you been involved with wof that you've seen so many healings and people getting out of wheel chairs in all your 28 years of living on this earth?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[wanderer6059]

I thought I dealt with this in the OP??



Then I continue with a LOT of Bible verses!


However, as I have said repeatedly, this thread is NOT for people who want to post their personal opinions. I would be happy to discuss any Bible verses you have - (not just general references to certain books).

That is how I want this thread to go - Bible verses - post to support or refute. There was another thread going, which was opinion, although the OP implied that was not at all where he wanted to go.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/144752-ask-word-faith-wof.html

PS My OP may be long, but this is a complex issue. If people chose not to read it, and it is obvious (not saying this specifically to you, Cee), then I am not going to interact with it. My goal is to get people to post about the BIBLE in the Bible Discussion Forum. There are plenty of other forums here for people to talk about opinions, unsupported by the Bible verses.

i liked you OP, i'm still breaking it down to respond and i really do value it! its gonna take a bit though it is complex lol

 

[wanderer6059]

I thought I dealt with this in the OP??



Then I continue with a LOT of Bible verses!


However, as I have said repeatedly, this thread is NOT for people who want to post their personal opinions. I would be happy to discuss any Bible verses you have - (not just general references to certain books).

That is how I want this thread to go - Bible verses - post to support or refute. There was another thread going, which was opinion, although the OP implied that was not at all where he wanted to go.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/144752-ask-word-faith-wof.html

PS My OP may be long, but this is a complex issue. If people chose not to read it, and it is obvious (not saying this specifically to you, Cee), then I am not going to interact with it. My goal is to get people to post about the BIBLE in the Bible Discussion Forum. There are plenty of other forums here for people to talk about opinions, unsupported by the Bible verses.

i do have a question dealing with the woman with the issue of blood.

[h=1]Luke 8:43-48King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]43 And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]44 Came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]45 And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]46 And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]47 And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.

what is the difference in here faith in Christ, and receiving her healing. and our faith?[/FONT]

 

[Whassup]

Another basic reason why healing is not included in the atonement is simple. Christ died to atone for our sins

Is this why Jesus told us in the Great Commission (Mark 16:17-18) to lay hands on the sick and they shall be healed???

Is this why James 5:14,15 says "Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up"?

Is this why 1 Peter 2:24 says "Jesus carried our sins in his own body on the cross, so that we, being dead to sin, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes you were healed"?

Is this why Matthew 8:17 says "That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet (speaking of Isaiah 53:4, 5), saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses"?

Is this why Proverbs 4:20-23 says "Attend to My words; incline your ear unto My sayings....let them not depart from your eyes; keep them in the midst of your heart....for they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh"?

Is this why Exodus 23:24-26 says "You shall not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do their works: but you shall utterly overthrow them, and destroy their images. And you shall serve Adonai your God, and He shall bless your food and drink; and I will take sickness away from the midst of you"?

None of this has anything to do with any "wof movement"... this is God's Word concerning what Jesus Christ did at the Cross. God even had provisions for His people to be well under the OT before Jesus came, so it's not God's will for His people to be sick...

As to WHY many of His people are in fact sick and die early and spend thousands and thousands on medical services and remain sick... is a hole different discussion.

I've been a Christian for over 30 years now and once I found it was God's will for me to be well (which took about 5 years to discover), I have no been sick in about 25 years... that's right, spent nothing on doctors and medical sciense because, where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty IF... IF one agrees with His Word and walking in it refusing to accept anything other than what God has promised.

Sure I've been attacked with all sorts of odd and strange feelings in my body cause satan is trying to choke God's Word out of my life (see Mark 4:13-20).

Yes, I agree there are many un-godly things TV preachers have done and and doing as they live in excess putting the things of this world as their top priority in this life and that is so obviously wrong... but as for me, I'm not going to let the activities of some false TV preachers shake me in to throwing down God's promises.

And, yes I'm considerably above the median income here in the US but I got that by that little 4 letter word many don't like to hear... W-O-R-K, and if it were not for the Lord, my work would not have prospered. But, it did cause the Lord taught me what having a little extra money is for which can be found in Deut 8:18

It's so sad that many Christians get in the ditch n one side or the other... some believing to excess causing them to live for the things of this world, and some believing Christians are sup-posed to be poor, sick and living on barely get by street.

How about some balance based on scripture???

 

[wanderer6059]

Well wanderer how come wof teaches that every single person that came to Jesus Christ was healed immediately? Can you give me an example of Jesus healing someone that was "NOT" immediately? And like I said you keep coming up with all these excuses to protect wof teachings that are mostly unbiblical. Btw, how long have you been involved with wof that you've seen so many healings and people getting out of wheel chairs in all your 28 years of living on this earth?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

because he was operating in the gift of healing......

and im and usher at the church, 6 years, 1 at Rhema so far. you should look above at what i believe healing is

 

[wanderer6059]

Is this why Jesus told us in the Great Commission (Mark 16:17-18) to lay hands on the sick and they shall be healed???

Is this why James 5:14,15 says "Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up"?

Is this why 1 Peter 2:24 says "Jesus carried our sins in his own body on the cross, so that we, being dead to sin, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes you were healed"?

Is this why Matthew 8:17 says "That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet (speaking of Isaiah 53:4, 5), saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses"?

Is this why Proverbs 4:20-23 says "Attend to My words; incline your ear unto My sayings....let them not depart from your eyes; keep them in the midst of your heart....for they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh"?

Is this why Exodus 23:24-26 says "You shall not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do their works: but you shall utterly overthrow them, and destroy their images. And you shall serve Adonai your God, and He shall bless your food and drink; and I will take sickness away from the midst of you"?

None of this has anything to do with any "wof movement"... this is God's Word concerning what Jesus Christ did at the Cross. God even had provisions for His people to be well under the OT before Jesus came, so it's not God's will for His people to be sick...

As to WHY many of His people are in fact sick and die early and spend thousands and thousands on medical services and remain sick... is a hole different discussion.

I've been a Christian for over 30 years now and once I found it was God's will for me to be well (which took about 5 years to discover), I have no been sick in about 25 years... that's right, spent nothing on doctors and medical sciense because, where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty IF... IF one agrees with His Word and walking in it refusing to accept anything other than what God has promised.

Sure I've been attacked with all sorts of odd and strange feelings in my body cause satan is trying to choke God's Word out of my life (see Mark 4:13-20).

Yes, I agree there are many un-godly things TV preachers have done and and doing as they live in excess putting the things of this world as their top priority in this life and that is so obviously wrong... but as for me, I'm not going to let the activities of some false TV preachers shake me in to throwing down God's promises.

And, yes I'm considerably above the median income here in the US but I got that by that little 4 letter word many don't like to hear... W-O-R-K, and if it were not for the Lord, my work would not have prospered. But, it did cause the Lord taught me what having a little extra money is for which can be found in Deut 8:18

It's so sad that many Christians get in the ditch n one side or the other... some believing to excess causing them to live for the things of this world, and some believing Christians are sup-posed to be poor, sick and living on barely get by street.

How about some balance based on scripture???

Amen.more.

 

[Cee]

To be honest Angela your OP is not Bible, it's a ton of opinion and theory as well.

Opinion and theory is always slipped in when we decide to "look at context". It's just the nature of things.

What I don't appreciate is when I post Bible verses and they are passed off as "theory or out of context". But then another person is correct because they are "in context". Context itself is interpretive. It's one of the first biases we must be wary of.

Most of your OP is from the point of view that the Bible is metaphorical when it teaches healing is available today. However, the Bible doesn't actually say it's metaphorical that is an opinion. And Jesus didn't mean for it to be metaphorical - if He did He wouldn't have said those who believe in Me will do things I did.

And further if it was metaphorical we wouldn't have this Scripture here:

James 5:14Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up.

Unless you want to call this passage metaphorical as well. That's your choice.

But, your post while it has lots of Greek and well-written arguments is not "pure Bible". It's filled with opinion and interpretative bias just like the rest of us.

Here's another example:

"But what did Isaiah himself intend??

The first reference is certainly metaphorical as the Septuagint, the Targums and Peter recognize. Israel was diseased! She was grievously wounded for her sins (Isa 1:6-7) Yet God would restore his people. There would come one who himself would suffer so as to deliver. Isaiah says of the Messiah "The punishment that brought us peace was upon him and by his wounds we are healed." Since physical disease was clearly recognized as a consequence of the Fall, such a metaphor could also pick up the literal sense and that is what Matthew picked up on."

You have no idea what Isaiah intended. You are posting an opinion - just like the rest of us. And then the Scriptures that disagree with your opinion are being argued as "metaphorical".

Here's another opinion (mine):

Isaiah 53 is the gospel summed up, and the gospel writers saw that, one focused on the physical healing and available and the other the spiritual healing available in Christ. And now Christ is with us. That means the same ministry He did on the Earth, He now does through us. That's why He said we would do the works He would do. And why John says, as Christ is so are we in this world. The Holy Spirit was given so that we would be His witnesses and people will see Christ through our lives. I don't believe or agree that the Scriptures are metaphorical. I believe they are literal.

In fact, whenever we point to "metaphor" to explain difficult passages to our theology we open up ourselves to hermaneutical error. And then when we argue that our interpretation is Bible only and everyone else is "out of context" we insulate ourselves from correction.

C.

I thought I dealt with this in the OP??



Then I continue with a LOT of Bible verses!


However, as I have said repeatedly, this thread is NOT for people who want to post their personal opinions. I would be happy to discuss any Bible verses you have - (not just general references to certain books).

That is how I want this thread to go - Bible verses - post to support or refute. There was another thread going, which was opinion, although the OP implied that was not at all where he wanted to go.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/144752-ask-word-faith-wof.html

PS My OP may be long, but this is a complex issue. If people chose not to read it, and it is obvious (not saying this specifically to you, Cee), then I am not going to interact with it. My goal is to get people to post about the BIBLE in the Bible Discussion Forum. There are plenty of other forums here for people to talk about opinions, unsupported by the Bible verses.

 

[PeterJens]

To be honest Angela your OP is not Bible, it's a ton of opinion and theory as well.

Opinion and theory is always slipped in when we decide to "look at context". It's just the nature of things.

Healing is available for all time, because we know God. But too many use healing
like a wand, believe in Jesus, because He will heal you, so there are healing meetings
where many are claimed to be healed but are not. And the healer is the focus.

Generations of believers have been brought up with healing and it not delivering.
At what point do believers stop and say God means something else as He is the
source. We are called to love despite our weaknesses and suffering, as Job did,
to praise the Lord despite our situation.

What dishonours our Lord, is to believe life here is worth resolving, rather than
walking into eternity. Too many actually follow the world and its privileges and
being a christian is just another step up the rung.

Some contributors are happy to believe in healing, delivered by someone else,
but when it comes to them, they see nothing. They then exhort everyone else
as unbelievers when they themselves are not praying and seeing healing.

If you say you believe, you pray and nothing happens, then you are wrong.
Finding the will of God is our calling, and being consistent to that calling.

 

[Whassup]

"But what did Isaiah himself intend??

I think the better question would be... "what was the Lord's intention" since scripture was produced by the inspiration and leading of the Holy Spirit.

Many biblical writers only partially understood what they were writing, and its in these last days that the fulness of knowledge is being released to believers to accept and DO God's Word (not hearers only), while those that are playing games with scripture (majority of TV preachers) are now receiving delusion as false doctrine grows.

The goats and the sheep are being separated now... the end of this age is very near - Maranatha!

 

[Grace777x70]

I was thinking about the man from Lystra that got healed when Paul "preached the gospel" so I'll just add my 2 cents worth in the mix of things and use the "bible".


I personally believe our loving Father is even more wanting for His children to be well than we are. Would we want our own children to be sick to teach them something? Would we put a sickness on our own children? No, a thousand times No. Our Father loves us more then our mere human love does but He operates from different perspectives and principles then we do on this earth.

Would we be put in jail if we brought a sickness on our child on purpose? Would we go to jail if we refused to help our child with medical help? How is our "sense of morality" of better quality then the Lord's? Where did we get this "sense of morality"? - we got it from the Lord Himself.

.........healing is definitely in the true gospel message.....as can be seen when Paul preached the gospel in Lystra. in Acts 14.

Acts 14:7-10 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] and there they continued to preach the gospel.

[SUP]8 [/SUP] At Lystra a man was sitting who had no strength in his feet, lame from his mother's womb, who had never walked.

[SUP]9 [/SUP] This man was listening to Paul as he spoke, who, when he had fixed his gaze on him and had seen that he had faith to be made well,

[SUP]10 [/SUP] said with a loud voice, "Stand upright on your feet." And he leaped up and began to walk.

Paul was preaching the GOSPEL.... the man lame was listening to Paul and then he had faith to be made whole...where did this man get faith to be made whole in his body?

Romans 10:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

The man that was lame from birth heard in the preaching of the gospel of the grace of Christ that he could be made whole. He believed...Paul saw it in him and encouraged him to act on his faith.

I believe healing is a part of the gospel of the grace of Christ as the forgiveness of sins is.

People are allowed to have their own opinions on this. Why is it that we rip each other apart over this and many other issues? Why can't we "allow" others to have a different opinion without castigating them, insulting them and maligning them?

This is a non-essential as far as I am concerned. Thank God we belong to Christ and that we are one body.

Galatians 5:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

 

[garee]

Why? Its the same like proving what was the disease Trofimus had in Miletus that Paul cannot "heal" or what problems exactly medically Timotheus had with his stomach.

No such information will change the fact they were not healed and that God said to Paul - I will leave you in this state, because that is how my power can be seen - in your weakness.

Well said .If I might add and do a little rambling.

In Proverbs we are informed, a broken spirit dries up the bone, the center of a bone is marrow, it is the blood factory which can aid in making a person ill or heal as a mystery.

Proverbs 17:22 A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.

In the end it’s God who heals, even when a person is pricked by the torn in the flesh which it seem to represent the gospel of grace , that some men resist.

I would call it the thorn of humility.

Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Again in Proverbs

Proverbs 26:9 As a thorn goeth up into the hand of a drunkard, so is a parable in the mouths of fools.

That is saying I believe, as the gospel is in the hand of a drunkard . so is a parable in the mouths of fools.No understanding

In Hebrews 6 another example in those who reject the gospel , crucifying Christ to themselves over and over again as if one work of His faith was not enough to bring salvation. It’s like the following verse .Better thing accompany the Christian's salvation real redemption

But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.But, beloved, we are persuaded "better things" of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.Heb 6

In 2 Corinthians i think receive a little more insight.

2Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

I would think the thorn in the flesh represents pride, he was being humbled by God , sending a messenger who accuses the believer day and night, as if the grace of Christ was not sufficient . I think God performs that in a hope his flesh would wake to the voice of God, turning the person toward God so that then they can then repent. More like a safe a guard unless men be self-exalted above measure, as it is written .

That thorn I belive will vanish away on the last day.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

 

[Angela53510]

FINALLY!!!!! what i wanted my thread t be!!!! ok i'll start angi and ill post my healing scriptures in a bit once i have typed it out!

Faith, is a firm persuasion in what God has promised. It is boldly going before the Father and as His child making our request know, knowing that He will meet our needs.

now this is the anchor verse here at Rhema.

Mark 11:22-24King James Version (KJV)

22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

ok so first lets break down some of these words!


pistis: faith, faithfulnessOriginal Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Short Definition: faith, belief, trust
Definition: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.


kardia: heartOriginal Word: καρδία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: kardia
Phonetic Spelling: (kar-dee'-ah)
Short Definition: the heart, inner life, intention
Definition: lit: the heart; mind, character, inner self, will, intention, center.


pisteuó: to believe, entrustOriginal Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I believe, have faith in
Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.


lambanó: to take, receiveOriginal Word: λαμβάνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: lambanó
Phonetic Spelling: (lam-ban'-o)
Short Definition: I receive, take
Definition: (a) I receive, get, (b) I take, lay hold of.


pas: all, everyOriginal Word: πᾶς, πᾶσα, πᾶν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: pas
Phonetic Spelling: (pas)
Short Definition: all, the whole, every kind of
Definition: all, the whole, every kind of.
Ok so first, the contextual usage for removing the mountain in this verse is to accomplish most difficult, stupendous, incredible things. now Faith is the first aspect, and it is in what God says in His word and His will, and believing it is true. next is the heart our inner being, out mind, and we are to hold firm to what the Word says and not be persuaded against what are faith is in. next is belief, belief also comes with the aspect of being entrusted with what we receive by faith and to protect it and guard it. next is to receive it is a bold and courage movement, there is a great part we play in taking hold of what we are in faith for. next is the usage of desire... this is probably the hardest verse in the passage.this is a better breakdown of the wordage.

3956/pás ("each, every") means "all" in the sense of "each (every) part that applies." The emphasis of the total picture then is on "one piece at a time." 365 (ananeóō) then focuses on the part(s) making up the whole – viewing the whole in terms of the individual parts.

in faith ALL of the PROMISES of God are brought into reality.

Hebrews 11:1King James Version (KJV)

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

As you can see, I'm just getting back around to posting on this thread, although it seems to have taken on a life of its own.

First, Wanderer, I'm delighted that you have decided to participate with Bible verses. And one so foundational to your beliefs. I do thank you, but I looked ahead a bit, and was a bit disappointed people were back to opinions. Because commenting on this passage from the valid, is also as valid as commenting on the verses which I posted.

I hope you don't mind, but I am going to post a modern English version of this passage, since I really don't understand this 400 year old English. Plus, I have just found so many doctrinal mistakes result from either mistakes in the KJV, or people not understanding the words, and creating doctrines out of words they do not understand. I am not sure where you got this Greek, if necessary, I will search out Bauer, and see what he has to say, although the definitions look fairly good to me.

"Peter remembered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!”

22 “Have faith in God,” Jesus answered. 23 “Truly I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them. 24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.” Mark 11:21-25 NIV

First, this is a beautiful passage on faith, in context with the rest of Mark 11, it has a lot to do with introducing his disciples to a new concept of where to put their faith - not in the temple, which Jesus addresses in verses 15-18.
specifically.

"On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple courts and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, 16 and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts. 17 And as he taught them, he said, “Is it not written: ‘My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations’ ?But you have made it ‘a den of robbers.’”
18 The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him, because the whole crowd was amazed at his teaching." Mark 11:15-18

As you can see, this is a powerful incident recalling Jesus chasing out the money changers, who has taking a "house of prayer" and turned it into a den of robbers. The Pharisees and chief priests were incredibly upset by this confrontation with Jesus - not only because it cut into their money, but I think because of the obvious power Jesus had - after all, no one tried to stop him from performing this outrageous act against the temple. The chief priests and teacher BEGAN to seek a way to kill Jesus, because "they feared him." These Pharisees and Herodians saw themselves as licensed by heaven to rule over God's temple and they feared losing control of the crowds to this upstart prophet. Jesus, the outsider, is usurping their power.

In fact, later on in this group, with this "faith" passage sandwiched in between, the Jewish leaders actually challenge Jesus:

"They arrived again in Jerusalem, and while Jesus was walking in the temple courts, the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders came to him. 28 “By what authority are you doing these things?” they asked. “And who gave you authority to do this?”" Mark 11:27-28

Jesus, of course, never responds directly or gives incontrovertible proof. To have the kind of faith that Jesus seeks, one has to infer on their own who has authorized Jesus to do and say what he does.

So this was the beginning of the end for Jesus, but also for the Jewish way of life. For when Jesus dies and the temple is rent in the sanctuary, that signifies that anyone who believes can come before God.

 

[Angela53510]

Continued

The part of Mark 11 after he confronts the money changers and the Jewish leaders, deals with the fig tree he had previously cursed in Mark 11:12-14

"The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it." Mark 11:12-14

Why was the tree cursed? Because it did not bear fruit! How prophetic those words are! So many Bible verses on the importance of bearing fruit! John 15, Gal. 5:22-23 come to mind to me, without doing a search. Bearing fruit is a fundamental part of our walk with Christ!

Are these fruits works, or signs or miracles? Nope! Apparently they are some attributes of God, which he hopes to form in our hearts and lives.

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law" Gal. 5:22-23

So far, we have seen in Mark 11, before and after the passage Wanderer has posted - Jesus cursing a fig tree that has not produced fruit - on his way into Jerusalem. But if we go back to the beginning of Mark 11, we will find even more significant information about this chapter. This chapter is when Jesus went into Jerusalem to be heralded on what we call "Palm Sunday." Jesus fulfils an OT passage about the King coming into Jerusalem on a donkey, an extremely important event, because it appears in all 4 gospels.

"Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion!
Shout, Daughter Jerusalem!
See, your king comes to you,
righteous and victorious,
lowly and riding on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a donkey." Zech 9:9

So I hope if you have persisted in reading what promises to be yet another LONG post by me, you are beginning to see the pattern, if not the entire chapter.

Jesus is hailed as Messiah, "Blessed is the coming kingdom of our father David" (Mark 11:10). This is his last entry into Jerusalem before he is crucified in the days right after the Passover. This is the beginning of the the ATONEMENT. This entire chapter is talking about Jesus - his power, his authority and his coming kingdom. Praise the Lord!

Then, he curses a fruit tree, because it does not bear fruit.

Then he overturns the money changers at the temple, and cries out the words that the temple WAS a "house of prayer." The dead fig tree leads directly into the passage posted by Wanderer.

In fact, it is significant that Jesus does not really interpret the metaphor of the dead fig tree, but instead he places emphasis on faith and prayer. By actions and by words, Jesus is pointing out that the temple is no longer the place for prayer and worship. The new order replaces the old order. The new order is based on faith in God. (11:22) that overcomes insurmountable odds (11:23) is sustained by grace (11:124) and characterized by forgiveness (11:25)

Jesus says "If anyone is able to move this mountain..." τῷ ὄρει τούτῳ or toe ore, touto. This mountain! Please note Jesus does not say "these mountains, or a mountain, or any mountain!" He is very specific! In Markan context, he is most likely referring to the temple mount, Mount Zion. Contrary to expectations, the Lord's house would not be exalted, but would be cast into the sea. In spite of the temple's immense power and holiness, it would be destroyed.

In spite of widespread belief that God's earthly address was the Holy of Holies; the temple, Jerusalem and the Holy Land would no longer be the focal point of God's presence among the people. God can no more be contained in one spot, that Jesus could be contained within the tomb. The holy place is wherever the disciples preach Jesus' gospel, and wherever his people - Jews and Gentiles gather.

That is the meaning of the mountain, not some incredible power God is giving to us, which let us face it, no one has ever seen. Not even Jesus cast a literal mountain into the sea. It is not even a metaphor or parable for a mountain being strength!

Jesus is reassuring his disciples that the effectiveness of prayer has nothing to do with the temple or sacrifices. When he dies on the cross, access to God is not closed off, but opened up for all.πάντα or pants, as noted above in post #20, is that ALL can have access to God through prayer. Praise the Lord!

This passage is not really done, unless we read 11:25,

"And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses." Mark 11:25


Relationship with God is based on faith and forgiveness. And that seems to have been chopped off of the passage posted in post #20. If one can unleash God's power by faith, and find forgiveness through prayer and a forgiving spirit, the temple cultus has been bypassed, and a house of prayer that has become a den of thieves has no more use than a fig tree. The temple, with its priesthood, sacrifices and taxes is no longer the place of God's presence, where one meets God and were sins are forgiven. By the time of Mark's writing, the temple is either besieged or already destroyed. Mark wants to convey to his readers that broken altars do not enter into the atonement with God.

In conclusion, Wanderer writes:

Ok so first, the contextual usage for removing the mountain in this verse is to accomplish most difficult, stupendous, incredible things. now Faith is the first aspect, and it is in what God says in His word and His will, and believing it is true. next is the heart our inner being, out mind, and we are to hold firm to what the Word says and not be persuaded against what are faith is in. next is belief, belief also comes with the aspect of being entrusted with what we receive by faith and to protect it and guard it. next is to receive it is a bold and courage movement, there is a great part we play in taking hold of what we are in faith for. next is the usage of desire... this is probably the hardest verse in the passage.this is a better breakdown of the wordage.

Does this conclusion or explanation have anything to do with Mark 11? It seems like absolutely not to me! This passage is not about us, or giving us some kind of "New Age" (inner being, out mind?) and some kind of hyped up "super" faith, out of a passage where Jesus was talking to his disciples about the changes his death and resurrection would bring. Not a literal mountain to be cast into the sea, but certainly an analogy with the Temple Mount, and Jesus using various metaphors and actions to say that soon, the disciples would have faith and be able to pray independent of the temple, which was finally razed in 70 AD by Titus and the Roman legions.

Wow! These answers are really tough! Almost like preparing a whole sermon. And really looking at the context, not just some verses that have been cobbled together to support a fly by night false belief. Sad how the Word Faith twists Bible verses to their own ends and doesn't teach its students to do correct hermeneutics.

The other sad part for me, is that neither Wanderer nor anyone else on this first page has actually commented, disputed or questioned anything I wrote in my long OP. I guess some people are just not willing to learn, and are content to be funnelled information from cult leaders, who program them to believe lies, and does not teach them how to interpret the Bible. The second example of twisting Scripture on page one.

 

[Cee]

I have considered replying to your OP, but it so filled with unproven claims and opinion.

Here's a small snippet of how you're inserting your own opinion and then stamping it as "fact". Which isn't not even remotely.

After using Dr. Fee's credibility as a scholar to prove your position. You then quickly summarize the "arguments" of people who believe in healing. In your OP you state things like "God does heal and God does bless". But it's not "Bible". Which I believe your basic idea is this, God can bless and heal when He wants, but if it doesn't happen it wasn't His will. If I'm wrong with my conclusion I'm sorry, but you're saying God heals, but then arguing He doesn't want everyone healed. So He's a respector of persons? Or just a respector of His will? I'm not sure what your argument is here.

But let's move on, it would take me a long, long, time to point out how much of your argument is opinion. So I'll just simply bold it so people can see how you're "persuading" instead of actually proving your claims. Everywhere I bold is an opinion claim. And each claim needs to be supported, which you do not do. Everywhere I underline is an "argumentative claim". When I bold and underline them it will be obvious what is happening in your entire OP.

You said:

The first set of texts, (a above) can be quickly set aside. This is a typical example of a totally faulty "concordance" interpretation, which finds English "catch" words in various texts and then tries to make them all refer to the same thing. There is not even the remotest possibility that Paul was referring to the curses of Deuteronomy 28 when he spoke of "curse of the law." And "redemption" in Galatians has to do with one thing only - how does one have right standing with God (This is ALL OPINION, none of it is supported) - through faith (= trust in God's gracious acceptance and forgiveness for sinners) ((This is more opinion, you are equating faith with only forgiveness with sinners, but you completely ignore Jesus' continual statements your faith has made you well, aka bodily healing)), or by works of the law (=acceptance by obedience to prescribed rules)? Thus the Holy Spirit could scarcely have inspired a meaning of the text that is totally foreign to the point Paul is making in the context in Galatians. (Another logical claim, that is not even remotely supported, you just stating your opinion as fact, like you do through the entire OP)

It is also questionable whether one can rightly argue that the Bible teaches that healing is provided for in the atonement. ((And here we go again, you state it is "questionable" and then refer to tradition to "prove" your claim, and you call this Bible?)) Historic Pentecostalism does not see healing provided for in the atonement the same way as salvation. Healing is "provided for" because the "atonement brought release from the consequences of sin;" nevertheless, since "we have not yet received the redemption of our bodies" suffering and death are still our lot until the resurrection.

(Actually, healing is provided for, because by His stripes (on His body) we are healed.)

You see this same connection when Paul says many are sick because they did not discern the Body. Or is this metaphorical too, Angela?

1 Co 11:29For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.

Scripture doesn't say its the Lord's judgment, but it's drinking judgment on himself. In fact, Scripture says clearly that people are sick and dead even because of not discerning His body. This is the only reason Scripture gives for sickness.

The idea that "Paul's thorn" was sickness has been widely refuted. It was a messenger of Satan (notice it wasn't from God) and Paul pointed to "persecutions" not "sicknesses". This type of interpretation is doing exactly what you claim others do.

I could go through your entire OP, and show you over and over, how you are doing exactly what you claim others are doing. Just because you write pages and pages of your opinion, and you know Greek, doesn't make it Bible. And when you position your arguments up like this it needs to be corrected.

I'm not saying this because I'm mad at you or I see you poorly, but because you want to grow and learn. Just like all of us do. You once told me that you appreciated that I came to learn, not just with an "agenda" to teach my POV. I really appreciated that remark. And I believe the same about you.

May we all have that same mind that was in Christ to consider others as higher than ourselves.

Tradition once believed money could spring souls from purgatory. We must be open to correction, especially in traditional thought. I don't care how many PHD's a person has. Paul was the PHD of his day and it wasn't until he had an encounter with God that he saw how wrong his understanding was.

And even though Paul had a proper understanding after his encounter, many of his brethren did not agree with his arguments. They were stuck in their traditions and missed the goodness of God.

C.